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JustKP

Formal Logic and Geometry

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Hello! This is my first time posting. I'm excited to be here and learn more about this journey of learning that we are on!

I have a rising 9th grader who is currently taking Mr. D. Algebra 1 and The Art of Argument (informal fallacies) at Schole Academy. The plan is for her to take geometry next year with Schole, which as I understand will be very rigorous. I'm trying to decide if she should take formal logic next year as well. She has really made great strides in her critical thinking this year learning the informal fallacies, but I'm not sure if taking both the rigorous geometry along with formal logic is recommended or to be avoided. The logic would either be Traditional Logic with Memoria Press or Discovery of Deduction with Schole -- haven't decided yet. I'm also considering doing a home study of The Argument Builder from Classical Academic Press. 

I would love to hear opinions about the different logic courses I'm considering for next year, particularly in the context of our situation. My daughter is a very hard worker but sometimes has to work harder than others to learn things so I do not want to overload her or cause confusion. Oh, I should probably mention that she will be taking Latin for the first time as well ... 🙂

Thank you!

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Welcome.  bumping for you.

I can tell you The Argument Builder is reported to be more of a logic-based writing curriculum. If you are familiar with Lost Tools of Writing, I have seen the two compared as being somewhat similar (not identical). I think it might be helpful for you to share what other composition you are planning on doing.

Latin can be quite intense. I am not sure which Latin you are looking at for her.  My son is in 7th grade and is working through Latin Alive 1 at home. We did Latin for Children A and B and Song School so he already had some Latin under his belt before this year. Even with that, at times it has been challenging. The pace of Latin Alive is pretty fast if someone has not had any Latin before. So you might want to keep that in mind when choosing a Latin curriculum. I have seen people recommend doing Getting Started with Latin before transitioning into Latin Alive if the student had no previous Latin.  My son is not a big fan of Karen Moore which makes me sad because I like her teaching a lot. He basically refuses to watch most of the videos. That is probably not helping. 😃 That said though, it is a faced paced (in my opinion) curriculum.  So I think your question about how the Latin enters into this is a valid one. 

What text does Schole use for Geometry? That would be useful to know. 

Lastly, I probably would consider cross-posting on the high school board.  These are more high school issues and not all those folks come over here to the Gen Ed board.

 

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Thank you for the bump and for the recommendation to cross-post! It's amazing that you mention Getting Started with Latin because that is exactly what we are planning to do, beginning soon. I came across this in my searching online and it looks wonderful! I was going to work through that with her possibly into the summer. Then, I was considering Rolling Acres School for next year (either live or homestudy). At first I was considering Latin 1, but then saw the prerequisite Latin background and thought maybe Latin Primer would be better. I anticipate difficulty with this because she is really not a good speller and she struggles with grammar, that is why we have waited this long. I love the sounds of the Rolling Acres program because in Latin 1 they use a text that heavily incorporates English grammar! This is amazing to me, and sounds like a perfect fit for my daughter. The book has great reviews on Amazon. I am also going to be doing Sing Song with her little brothers, so I figure she will pick some of this up along the way, as well 🙂

Schole actually uses Euclid's Elements in conjunction with a geometry text that can serve as a contrast and springboard. At least, that is what I was told last week. It appears that they may be changing instructors, which might change my plans. My backup currently is Kolbe Academy online live which uses Geometry: A Guided Inquiry. I think this one sounds amazing as well, but I'm swooning over the idea of studying Euclid's Elements alongside her. I hope it works out! 😄

Edited to add that she is currently doing LTOW I with a small online provider. It has been amazing and the plan is to keep that going the next year and next for levels two and three. Does that mean that you think they would be a good fit to do tandem? Also, I'm considering having her take the Memoria Press Chreia/Maxim class. I have always thought the Progymnasmata sounds amazing. We have only worked through the first part of Fable, so I would need to do some work with her in the meantime. Mr. Piland gave me the recommendation for Chreia/Maxim, and seems to think that continuing with LTOW will not be a conflict/problem.

I should also add that our daughter is not looking forward to taking formal logic, based on her rudimentary understanding of what it entails (from Art of Argument) - LOL  But it is being offered next year by one of her favorite teachers at Memoria Press, so that is why I am reconsidering having her take that as well. 

 

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I am not really any help, but had some questions for you. I have a dd currently taking Mr. D Algebra 1 and Schole Academy's Art of Argument. I am just curious as to your decision to move away from those providers? As of now, I am planning to continue both-- Mr D Geometry and Discovery of Deduction with Schole. After DoD, I plan for dd to take Schole's classes Debate and persuasive writing (Argument Builder) for 10th grade. I had considered adding an online writing course,  but Schole AoA has a good bit of writing in it, so I am just going to continue having her write across the curriculum and continue with the Schole sequence. I can't imagine my dd keeping up with formal logic, LTOW and another writing class.  That seems like a lot of writing. 

I would love to know the background to your decision to switch. . . I am always wondering if I am missing something. 🙂

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Hello! I'm so happy to see that you stopped by because I saw your post over the last few days, while perusing here, and recognized that our situations have a lot in common 🙂

I did not realize that the persuasive writing course at Schole is based off Argument Builder. I poked around (and even asked via email) to see whether they offer a course based off that text, to no avail. I have a few reasons for thinking of diverging off the course -- other than not realizing that there was a course that included Argument Builder - LOL

One, it sounds awesome for our daughter to take Discovery of Deduction from Mrs. Hodge, but the timing of that course really is not ideal for us and after checking with Schole, they are not certain whether they will offer another section. Secondly, my concern about having her take an intensive geometry alongside the formal logic course, and the sense that I have that what she really needs for next year is assistance building good arguments as she furthers her writing abilities. The Argument Builder (especially if it fits well with LTOW) just feels like a better fit, so as not to confuse the principles of formal logic with those of geometry (although I'm sure that both formal logic and geometry are similar, I'm just not sure how much they might conflict with each other). I fully anticipate Mrs. Hodge's DoD class to be very rigorous as well, and I'm not really looking to introduce something else that is that rigorous since I have fallen in love with the idea of her learning geometry with Euclid 🙂

We have loved Mr. D. and will certainly miss him next year! There is a good chance we will switch back for Algebra II the year after next. My main reason for changing was thinking that a more intensive geometry course would serve as a course in logic as well, if that makes sense. I'm really a newbie to classical education, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

I should also say that one factor here is a "race against the clock", so to speak. My son's former (classical) middle school will likely be opening a high school year after next, and we will definitely discern at that time whether she should attend. So I am constantly figuring that into my calculations, so as to leave her best positioned for that transition, should it occur ...

Edited to add that our daughter is taking LTOW through Coram Deo Tutorials. She is doing the recorded class with tutoring option, so she has a lot of support for that. It really only takes her about 3 hours per week, total. I found that the writing in AoA was very intense for her -- she rose to the challenge, but I would like to provide her with some more easier challenges for next year. * I just checked out the Persuasive Writing course at Schole. I will likely wait and have her take Everyday Debate and Persuasive Writing her sophomore year, if she does not attend the classical high school I mentioned. Thanks for the tip on this!

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, JustKP said:

Hello! I'm so happy to see that you stopped by because I saw your post over the last few days, while perusing here, and recognized that our situations have a lot in common 🙂

I did not realize that the persuasive writing course at Schole is based off Argument Builder. I poked around (and even asked via email) to see whether they offer a course based off that text, to no avail. I have a few reasons for thinking of diverging off the course -- other than not realizing that there was a course that included Argument Builder - LOL

One, it sounds awesome for our daughter to take Discovery of Deduction from Mrs. Hodge, but the timing of that course really is not ideal for us and after checking with Schole, they are not certain whether they will offer another section. Secondly, my concern about having her take an intensive geometry alongside the formal logic course, and the sense that I have that what she really needs for next year is assistance building good arguments as she furthers her writing abilities. The Argument Builder (especially if it fits well with LTOW) just feels like a better fit, so as not to confuse the principles of formal logic with those of geometry (although I'm sure that both formal logic and geometry are similar, I'm just not sure how much they might conflict with each other). I fully anticipate Mrs. Hodge's DoD class to be very rigorous as well, and I'm not really looking to introduce something else that is that rigorous since I have fallen in love with the idea of her learning geometry with Euclid 🙂

We have loved Mr. D. and will certainly miss him next year! There is a good chance we will switch back for Algebra II the year after next. My main reason for changing was thinking that a more intensive geometry course would serve as a course in logic as well, if that makes sense. I'm really a newbie to classical education, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

I should also say that one factor here is a "race against the clock", so to speak. My son's former (classical) middle school will likely be opening a high school year after next, and we will definitely discern at that time whether she should attend. So I am constantly figuring that into my calculations, so as to leave her best positioned for that transition, should it occur ...

Edited to add that our daughter is taking LTOW through Coram Deo Tutorials. She is doing the recorded class with tutoring option, so she has a lot of support for that. It really only takes her about 3 hours per week, total. I found that the writing in AoA was very intense for her -- she rose to the challenge, but I would like to provide her with some more easier challenges for next year. * I just checked out the Persuasive Writing course at Schole. I will likely wait and have her take Everyday Debate and Persuasive Writing her sophomore year, if she does not attend the classical high school I mentioned. Thanks for the tip on this!

 

 

 

interesting enough I also emailed about if they might offer DoD at another time, as that time is not ideal for us either. I was told to keep watching the website as an additional class with a different instruction was a possibility. I may just sign her up for this one anyway so she can have Mrs. Hodge, but it will mean missing out on a local opportunity....

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When you say Traditional Logic, are you talking about only MP's Logic I, or will the class cover Logic I and Logic II? 

I don't know if this is helpful, because dd only took the class at home, but I wouldn't consider Logic I with MP to be a "straw" if you are worried about adding too much to her load. But, like I said, we only did it at home over a semester over the summer of dd's 9th grade year. It wasn't super rigorous imo. Her only previous "logic" classes prior to that were Fallacy Detective and Thinking Toolbox in 7th grade. 

We didn't buy the DVDs for Logic I (I had talked to Martin Cothran at a conference so was comfortable that the workbooks alone would be fine)-  she just did the workbooks and I graded. It was really straight forward. Logic II is definitely a step up from Logic I, and I think it  could add in a level of difficulty if it ramped up that second semester along with the other courses. But again, these were just the work-texts at home, so perhaps an online class would add in more work or difficulty?  However, I didn't not feel that MP's Logic I required any additional instruction or class outside of the workbooks. It was really straightforward. I wouldn't hesitate to have it alongside other rigorous courses. 

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