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Mainer

Alternatives to Fast ForWord?

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Hi guys, I'm trying to learn about alternatives to Fast ForWard. FFW is REALLY expensive! Is it really worth the money? I'm specifically trying to find a computerized program, because my student is very motivated by computers. I'm trying to target auditory memory, attention, and language processing. (A lot to ask of one program, I know 😀)

I've heard of Hear Builder. Anything else you've tried with positive results?

Edited by Mainer

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Some people have used Earobics.

I think there is another computer program similar to HearBuilder on Super Duper.

It’s been a while since I looked.  

 

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At the time Headsprout had a lot of buzz, I tried it and HearBuilder.  My son could not do either of them, he ended up needing speech therapy.  His need was phonemic awareness though.  

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Headsprout is in no way comparable to Fast Forward, but it worked really well for both my kids.  It was pretty much the only thing we did with my oldest to get her reading.  My younger one with dyslexia needed more targeted work after it, but it still worked really well for her, although she wasn't successful till a bit older (5 rather than 4) than my younger one.  

I used Earobics with my older one.  It was glitchy and didn't work well.  I'm not sure if it's even available anymore.  It was only on CD ROM about 12 years ago though.  

Edited by Terabith
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13 hours ago, Terabith said:

Headsprout is in no way comparable to Fast Forward, but it worked really well for both my kids.  It was pretty much the only thing we did with my oldest to get her reading.  My younger one with dyslexia needed more targeted work after it, but it still worked really well for her, although she wasn't successful till a bit older (5 rather than 4) than my younger one.  

I used Earobics with my older one.  It was glitchy and didn't work well.  I'm not sure if it's even available anymore.  It was only on CD ROM about 12 years ago though.  

Thanks, Terabith. This kid is reading just fine, it's the understanding that needs work. I'll have to look at Headsprout for others! 🙂 

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Thanks, all. Fast ForWord is almost $900 for ONE kid for ONE year. I wish I understood why it's so expensive for a computer program, ya know? 

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The high price can make it seem more like a racket.  When people pay more for something they are more likely to feel like something works great.  And, less likely to say it doesn’t work well because they would feel more embarrassed about spending that much money.  

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3 hours ago, Lecka said:

The high price can make it seem more like a racket.  When people pay more for something they are more likely to feel like something works great.  And, less likely to say it doesn’t work well because they would feel more embarrassed about spending that much money.  

Yeah... it makes me a bit uneasy, especially since I've never used it before. I mean, plenty of materials are expensive (say, LiPS is about $400), but those are materials you own forever. The $900 is what you get for just a year.

I'm thinking some Linguisystems materials may work well.

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The research section on the Lindamood Bell website looks a lot better.

I don’t know about LiPS specifically, but there was a research study on their reading comprehension program for autism that got reported on autism websites.  

I hope you find something good on Linguisystems.

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https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/reading-remedy-prompts-brain-dialogue-in-children-with-autism/

It doesn’t say Visualizing and Verbalizing, and there is a paywall now, but I am 99% sure this is about VV by Lindamood Bell.  

So it’s not Lips, but I saw news about this study on a few autism sites when it came out.  

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm surprised you can't get better pricing as a school.

That is the school pricing, if you can believe it 😯 It's $1400 to have 5 kids on, which is better per kid, but still... and then $500 if you want a webinar training.

Apparently it's even more expensive for parents!

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Well if the school can pay it, sounds better to do the 5 student licensing. It does seem unique. Do they have any research to give you to back their product? Language is something we never do enough of or can get enough of. Think about it. If what it's doing is even at all comparable to the bump in language processing that would come if an SLP worked on language, then think about the HOURS you'd have to bill to get there. Makes the software a bargain. 

I think it's a common enough yes in schools that if you have the budget for it it could be good to *try* just to see what happens. That price for 5 kids isn't so bad, seems to me.

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On 2/17/2019 at 8:27 PM, PeterPan said:

If what it's doing is even at all comparable to the bump in language processing that would come if an SLP worked on language, then think about the HOURS you'd have to bill to get there. Makes the software a bargain. 

This is a great point, and I agree with you. Lecka posted some not-great conclusions from a couple articles, so I need to learn more. If it really is unique, and effective, then the five-kid price isn't so bad.

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You're addressing an area that's controversial and hard to treat anywhere. The SLPs consider APD a language disorder. They'll look at studies of bilingual children with differences comprehending in background noise in language 1 vs. 2. They also consider that APD testing is done with language instead of beeps or noises. Now I think it's more complicated, because retained reflexes affect language development too and kids who integrate retained reflexes get a language bump. 

So if you're saying you're treating a language delay, language disorder, language processing problem, then how good is the therapy system REALLY at treating that? Like if you invested a similar amount of money in SLP hours, how much progress would they make? I'm cynical, because my ds has significant disabilities and his IEP says something pathetic like 20 minutes a week of speech therapy. 

So I'm just looking at it practically, that anything is moving up and more service is better than little to no service, especially if the SLP won't have a clear game plan and won't be given hours even if s/he does.

But if you asked the question of whether working on retained reflexes would bump the language and eliminate the need for the FFW, that's an interesting one that I don't have data on. Clearly if you do therapy on someone who has a physical underlying glitch then you still haven't treated the glitch. But then we're back to our jaded reality of IEPs and intervention, sigh. 

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5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So if you're saying you're treating a language delay, language disorder, language processing problem, then how good is the therapy system REALLY at treating that? Like if you invested a similar amount of money in SLP hours, how much progress would they make? I'm cynical, because my ds has significant disabilities and his IEP says something pathetic like 20 minutes a week of speech therapy. 

This is the big question. I honestly have no idea. And I'm not a SLP, so what do I know about language processing? Answer: Nada. I know what it looks like to struggle with language processing, a little, but how to fix it? 

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5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

But then we're back to our jaded reality of IEPs and intervention, sigh. 

Yup. I was just reading something on the Spell-Links forum about how most reading interventions are, lets just say, not great. Someone on there was advocating AGAINST parents at her school getting IEPs for their children, because she knew that the interventions just weren't going to be worth leaving general ed to go to the resource room.  

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My son and I have reviewed and looked at almost every kind of Auditory program. He has Auditory processing and the therapist at the hearing center let us review and demo several programs.  Each program targets different areas and age groups. Some question would be a test to see where your kiddo is low in skills and high in targeted area. If the child is over 8 an easy way to do this is to sign up for one month of BrainHQ and sit with them with headphones and let them try all of the auditory programs on there. 

Fast Forword is made by the same creator of BrainHQ. Sound Sweeps, Memory Grid, Auditory Ace are adult programs that are an adults less sophisticated version of some of the games from Fast Forword. If your child graduates from Sound Sweeps quickly and with precision that would tell you that this is not a board that needs to be nailed down. If it is a big challenge for your child then FF is the way to go. It is the only program that I have found that creates enough repetitions to get the child to mastery. The program adjusts up and down so the child doesn't get discouraged and the data the coach gives you keeps the child progressing and improving. Honestly when they showed me the FastForword I thought it was lame. Its like the Karate Kid movie from years ago where daniel waxes the cars over and over again to build muscle memory. This is exactly what the program does. Your child works through the program "waxing" with his ears until the auditory system fine tunes itself. Don't pay for it unless you are willing to do it everyday atleast 4-5 days a week for a few months. We started in December and went all the way to Febuary for the Foundations level 1. Then March through May for Foundations level 2. At that point we finished everything but Jumper gym and since that was very important we worked on that along with zoo caper sky scraper and Hear Builder Auditory Memory. At that point we finished up and could have graduated. My son tested completely normal in all areas of Auditory Processing and the Audiologist and SLP were astounded with his follow up testing. Since I paid for the program, I elected to do the reading modules and let him work through those for August to December when the program expired. 

Now We are pretty much done with auditory training. Also my son could not pronounce any R sounds and we had gone through over a year of speach therapy and a year of ILS system exercises, retained reflexes before starting FF. The year we did this he made zero progress in the auditory testing and even got a little worse. That is why I decided to take a chance on FF. In the first 6 months he did FF he soared through speach therapy and now is ready to graduate and can pronounce all R's . We are just seeing the therapist for 1 session a month to sweep up any muscle memory that might be hanging around in commonly used words. My son will miss them about 20% of the time. This is astounding considering the speech to text on the ipad did not work at all for my son in August of 2017 and now it works fine as his pronunciation improved that much. 

If I was dedicated and committed to doing it daily I saw  the FF going one of two ways. I either paid for it and my son sailed through it and finished it quickly with no setbacks. This would tell me I didn't nail the right area and wasted my money. Or it would find the areas my son was weak and identify them and nail the boards down tightly. Coming out of FF I was confident I caught most of the troubled areas and worked on a few loose boards with the other programs mentioned . My coach let us demo the program and so we could tell that he was not going to sail through it and it might be worth the time and money. For my son's situation I was a skeptic but now I honestly believe it changed our lives and I am very very glad I did it. 

 

My son also did Hearbuilder Auditory Memory but if he were under 9 and willing the entire Hearbuilder program is good. It was just a bit young as far as interface . I have also looked into Cogmed. My son struggled like crazy with HR auditory memory so we stopped and then did FF. We returned to HR afterwards and he sailed through it.

He also struggled with accoustic pioneer Skyscraper Zoo Caper Sky Scraper but was able to quickly master it after we returned to it after completing FF. 

Earobics is ok it will get the Auditory memory done but it is level based and has a very young interface. I also feel the same about Auditory workout on the ipad and a few other programs. 

there is one program I am still considering and that is soundstorm ( hearing in sound) and interactive metronome( Temporal processing we have the home IM but have only done 8 lessons with success, my son has pretty good rhythm now after FF)  but my son is doing very well now so I haven't pursued them. 

Edited by exercise_guru
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23 hours ago, exercise_guru said:

can pronounce all R's . We are just seeing the therapist for 1 session a month to sweep up any muscle memory that might be hanging around in commonly used words. My son will miss them about 20% of the time. This is astounding considering the speech to text on the ipad did not work at all for my son in August of 2017 and now it works fine as his pronunciation improved that much. 

This is exciting!!!! My ds has his r's in most positions, just not that final vocalic. We lost our PROMPT therapy (grrr). You're right that even though we have apraxia and the significant motor planning issues going on it's always moderated by the phonological processing and actually hearing it and realizing what he's hearing. I think your progress is amazing and now I want to go play with the hack tests you suggested (see if he can do easily the free/adult versions). 

So Sound Sweeps is a hack check to see if all of FFW or just certain parts? 

Yeah, we're working on narrative language right now with the wax on/wax off. And he's doing some drama with a Hunter Heartbeat Shakespeare class and he doesn't get WHY he's doing simple things. I think it's more of the wax on/wax off. Maybe we need to watch Karate Kid, lol. I haven't seen it in probably 30+ years, lol.

Foo, it charges you money even to try Sound Sweeps. 

Edited by PeterPan

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PP BrainHQ is really cheap though like 14 dollars a month and I think you can even try the first month free. They always have discount codes for a year subscription so just sign up for the email.  They also let you try different stuff each week without a subscription. It was my Fast Forword Coach that told me about Brain HQ.

I should write about the R pronunciation in another thread. It was a long process with a good therapist who understood the mechanics and gave up a lot of "wax on Wax off " exercises. My son really took off with the focus, attention and pronunciation during/after fast forword.  If anyone ever wants to chat on the phone about this or by email I am happy to share our experience just pm me. In the beginning my son had major problems with jaw movement and association to the toungue. The therapist had us crunch cherrious slowly while making different sounds to increase awareness of how much pressure the jaw and toungue needed to make the R sound. There are 21 R sounds in the english language and that isn't even taking into account english words with a double R in it where the jaw has to release and the toungue has to move to different places in the mouth quickly and with precision. Our SLP was a function SLP and I owe him a tremendous debt for helping my son. We practiced daily at home for close to a year but now we are getting close to being completely done with speech therapy. My son made the most gains the 6 months we did Fast Forword but then after we finished the foundations he continued to make consistant gains with each of the 21 R sounds. Now it is just rebuilding the last of the muscle memory from having the brain do the old pattern. Knowing what to do, Doing it daily to build enough repetitions, and not giving up is our Motto in our house. 

Back to FF, I changed computers but I probably have the notes I took from January 2018 when we were one month into FF.  I am a bit slammed this week but I made a little spreadsheet somewhere comparing the exercises in FF to the ones in BrainHQ. Many are similar but the BrainHQ doesn't push the repetitions long enough and thorough enough. If a parent was diligent with a timer and rewards they could probably use BrainHQ exclusively with a preteen/ teen. Certainly there is good Working Memory stuff and both auditory and Visual training in that program.  I did it for two months because I have so much short term memory loss from chemotherapy. The thing is its very hard to know what progress you are making and if you have mastered a skill. FF takes care of all of that.  If a skill is too hard it dials it to an area you are good at and then moves you back as your progress. It is very good at keeping the frusteration low as you "wax the car". When we started out my son had to do the program in total silence. He couldn't even have the microwave fan on. The Program continues repetitions until the skill attains mastery at 90% of normal range. I wish Cogmed was designed like this because I would like to try it for more working memory training but it is very frusterating to do and repeating levels is discouraging. Most kiddos quit.  In hindsight I should have logged on to my sons FF program and used the teen version there for myself while he was going through the elementary school version. Sadly my membership has expired so to late for that cool idea.  

I do love his FF  private coach and she was generous in that she let us demo the FF program before paying for it . She lives in a different state and it was all online.  That is something that FF doesn't let you do directly and I am still annoyed as all get out about that. It was alot of money and I held my breath when I committed to it. It took dedication and patience to get all the way through it but fortunately FF targeted his specific deficit. I was fortunate in that my son went in the auditory and speech assessments right before I did the program and after I did FF foundations 1 and 2. There was huge measurable result but not every skill our kid is missing can be measured that way and we still aren't out of the woods. I know this is cliche but he was a different kiddo coming out of FF than going in.( attention, auditory recognition, dichotic listening, hearing in noise, working memory)  I still haven't figured out how much was FF and how much was maturing. 

How I handled the whole FF brainHQ thing is I did a week long practace with BrainHQ noting which games my son was good at and which ones he struggled. Then my coach let us demo FF and I could hear the clunks as he did the exercises. I was fairly confident it would fill in some missing gaps for him

 

OK now I should expand a bit more so one of the programs in Fast Forword measures certain auditory skills at different frequencies and re mediates them through auditory attention and recognition. My son could do all of the exercises efficiently at 2K but clunked for days and days in the 500Hz range. Over 65 days/sessions the program helped train his brain and ear to " hear and process" that gap in his auditory processing. This was a gap we didn't even know existed with the standard booth testing for Auditory Processing. Maybe that is why he was so successful with FF. There is a video on youtube I wish I could find where this adult man who was 27 had a brain injury and he flew to a clinic ran by Michael Merzenich the creator of BrainHQ and Fast Forword. They showed how much he rehabilitated and I recognized the FF and BrainHQ exercises.  Here is an article about it "New treatment for brain injuries" The video is awesome to watch it really made me commit to try it. I think this is theTV episode for Brain HQ and Fast Forword. Theses programs he is doing in the video are early versions of Fast Forword and BrainHQI watched on Ryan Reitmeyer,  That Dr. Michael Merzenich is just gold in my book and his research has helped my son .  I would think that anybody over 12 could do BrainHQ and if they did it consistantly and with enough repetitions they would see progress. I really have come to believe in Brain Plasticity as I have seen it with my son's brain over the past two years and I have seen it with my own brain after Chemotherapy. 

Also for adults there is a program online called LACE it is very good but the reading level is very high. It is intended for improving Auditory Processing and hearing in noise for adults who are losing their peripheral hearing. The thing is it would work fantastically for Auditory Processing and I am thinking of just using the program to rehab my brain now that I am out of Chemo. I will post if I find it helps. Here is a youtube on that LACE Auditory Retraining program.  We tried it at the auditory center but the level was way way high like for someone in their 20's or 30's 

Edited by exercise_guru

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16 hours ago, exercise_guru said:

PP BrainHQ is really cheap though like 14 dollars a month and I think you can even try the first month free. They always have discount codes for a year subscription so just sign up for the email.  They also let you try different stuff each week without a subscription. It was my Fast Forword Coach that told me about Brain HQ.

I should write about the R pronunciation in another thread. It was a long process with a good therapist who understood the mechanics and gave up a lot of "wax on Wax off " exercises. My son really took off with the focus, attention and pronunciation during/after fast forword.  If anyone ever wants to chat on the phone about this or by email I am happy to share our experience just pm me. In the beginning my son had major problems with jaw movement and association to the toungue. The therapist had us crunch cherrious slowly while making different sounds to increase awareness of how much pressure the jaw and toungue needed to make the R sound. There are 21 R sounds in the english language and that isn't even taking into account english words with a double R in it where the jaw has to release and the toungue has to move to different places in the mouth quickly and with precision. Our SLP was a function SLP and I owe him a tremendous debt for helping my son. We practiced daily at home for close to a year but now we are getting close to being completely done with speech therapy. My son made the most gains the 6 months we did Fast Forword but then after we finished the foundations he continued to make consistant gains with each of the 21 R sounds. Now it is just rebuilding the last of the muscle memory from having the brain do the old pattern. Knowing what to do, Doing it daily to build enough repetitions, and not giving up is our Motto in our house. 

Back to FF, I changed computers but I probably have the notes I took from January 2018 when we were one month into FF.  I am a bit slammed this week but I made a little spreadsheet somewhere comparing the exercises in FF to the ones in BrainHQ. Many are similar but the BrainHQ doesn't push the repetitions long enough and thorough enough. If a parent was diligent with a timer and rewards they could probably use BrainHQ exclusively with a preteen/ teen. Certainly there is good Working Memory stuff and both auditory and Visual training in that program.  I did it for two months because I have so much short term memory loss from chemotherapy. The thing is its very hard to know what progress you are making and if you have mastered a skill. FF takes care of all of that.  If a skill is too hard it dials it to an area you are good at and then moves you back as your progress. It is very good at keeping the frusteration low as you "wax the car". When we started out my son had to do the program in total silence. He couldn't even have the microwave fan on. The Program continues repetitions until the skill attains mastery at 90% of normal range. I wish Cogmed was designed like this because I would like to try it for more working memory training but it is very frusterating to do and repeating levels is discouraging. Most kiddos quit.  In hindsight I should have logged on to my sons FF program and used the teen version there for myself while he was going through the elementary school version. Sadly my membership has expired so to late for that cool idea.  

I do love his FF  private coach and she was generous in that she let us demo the FF program before paying for it . She lives in a different state and it was all online.  That is something that FF doesn't let you do directly and I am still annoyed as all get out about that. It was alot of money and I held my breath when I committed to it. It took dedication and patience to get all the way through it but fortunately FF targeted his specific deficit. I was fortunate in that my son went in the auditory and speech assessments right before I did the program and after I did FF foundations 1 and 2. There was huge measurable result but not every skill our kid is missing can be measured that way and we still aren't out of the woods. I know this is cliche but he was a different kiddo coming out of FF than going in.( attention, auditory recognition, dichotic listening, hearing in noise, working memory)  I still haven't figured out how much was FF and how much was maturing. 

How I handled the whole FF brainHQ thing is I did a week long practace with BrainHQ noting which games my son was good at and which ones he struggled. Then my coach let us demo FF and I could hear the clunks as he did the exercises. I was fairly confident it would fill in some missing gaps for him

 

OK now I should expand a bit more so one of the programs in Fast Forword measures certain auditory skills at different frequencies and re mediates them through auditory attention and recognition. My son could do all of the exercises efficiently at 2K but clunked for days and days in the 500Hz range. Over 65 days/sessions the program helped train his brain and ear to " hear and process" that gap in his auditory processing. This was a gap we didn't even know existed with the standard booth testing for Auditory Processing. Maybe that is why he was so successful with FF. There is a video on youtube I wish I could find where this adult man who was 27 had a brain injury and he flew to a clinic ran by Michael Merzenich the creator of BrainHQ and Fast Forword. They showed how much he rehabilitated and I recognized the FF and BrainHQ exercises.  Here is an article about it "New treatment for brain injuries" The video is awesome to watch it really made me commit to try it. I think this is theTV episode for Brain HQ and Fast Forword. Theses programs he is doing in the video are early versions of Fast Forword and BrainHQI watched on Ryan Reitmeyer,  That Dr. Michael Merzenich is just gold in my book and his research has helped my son .  I would think that anybody over 12 could do BrainHQ and if they did it consistantly and with enough repetitions they would see progress. I really have come to believe in Brain Plasticity as I have seen it with my son's brain over the past two years and I have seen it with my own brain after Chemotherapy. 

Also for adults there is a program online called LACE it is very good but the reading level is very high. It is intended for improving Auditory Processing and hearing in noise for adults who are losing their peripheral hearing. The thing is it would work fantastically for Auditory Processing and I am thinking of just using the program to rehab my brain now that I am out of Chemo. I will post if I find it helps. Here is a youtube on that LACE Auditory Retraining program.  We tried it at the auditory center but the level was way way high like for someone in their 20's or 30's 

Wow, THANK YOU for all of this great information! If you don't mind, I'd love to send bits of it to our SLP. I think I'll ask my FF contact if we can demo the program, like you did. Part of our problem is we've never seen it, so it's hard to know what we're jumping in to. This kid is going for some auditory testing, so we'll know more soon about whether this would be appropriate for him.

Do you think it's good at teaching language concepts, or is it mostly for auditory processing?

They have another (add-on?) program now, called Reading Assistant or something. It teaches reading comprehension. It's apparently "free" with a FF subscription. You can either do the programs simultaneously, or alternate.

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you ask "Do you think it's good at teaching language concepts, or is it mostly for auditory processing?" . Its a long answer and my coach could explain it better but FF was developed by a team including Michael Merzenich. My understanding is that it has been used with many areas but where it excels is with kids who struggle with reading and listening to oral instructions. I really think in my situation the program just happened to address the specific leaks and weaknesses in my sons auditory system . My son was an adequate reader at grade level but he jumped from 4th grade reading to 10th grade reading doing that program. The school didn't know we were doing the program. The principal called and was amazed. They even tested him twice because they thought it was inaccurate. He got an award at the school. His teacher said his verbal expression had grown significantly  as well. He still has a focus challenge in noise but it has improved by  a huge amount and we plan to still work on that. There are some modules that I supplemented with Hearbuilder( I wanted more Auditory memory even though the programs in FF were good), accoustic Pioneer( Dichotic listening app that we completed)  and audio books after he finished foundations. It isn't the whole answer but it is very very good at what it does if the child has a weakness it can address. My son tested completely out of CAPD after doing FF now I am more polishing the edges because in some areas he is "low/ medium" normal and when stressed he doesn't do as well with listening and hearing in noise etc. 

Keeping consistency up was key ( as it is with everything) we did it 45 minutes 4-5 days a week and I bribed and rewarded liberally. 

I think the coach I work with only demo's with her clients so pm me if you are interested in that  she would give you a free phone consult and a free webinar explaining FF . If you have a FF specialist you want to work with in your area ask them to let you demo it, It is a huge commitment without seeing whats "inside the box" My coach did  a webinar with me and explained the concepts behind the program and it made the program more appealing than just watching these simple games that fine tune the auditory processing system. She has a lot of integrity and more kiddos than she needs so she wouldn't pressure you to use the program if you didn't need it. She worked with FF in the schools for years and years and has seen probably 100's of kiddos go through the program. She knows who needs it and who doesn't. She knows what it will help and researched some challenges my son had to help him as well. 

I found this coach because I was so unhappy with the information I was getting directly through FastForword. There wasn't a therapist locally who was experienced in FF and could really coach through it. I read a website with her commenting to some parents who were stuck in FF. She was just so smart and on target I felt like she was speaking to me. I contacted her and asked if she ever coached online kids as we are two states away. The whole experience was very very positive. My son was stuck numerous times and we would have quit but she helped us problem solve through it. She also understood the data and helped us get through it. It was more cost effective with better results and I had the program for an entire year.  We spent around 6 months on the Foundations 1 and 2 then worked on the Reading modules until our program expired. The reading/literacy sections are a very good resource for reading improvement and would work well with a homeschooling curriculum. It does work on a broad area of reading with comprehension, memory , understanding and building logic outlines etc. It needed some support from the parent but overall I was happy with that program as well. I used it to build around the current literacy program and cement concepts. I could even demo the program and create a lesson plan that the literacy section supported. For example in the upper levels of the literacy portion: my 11 year old could not do ven diagrams and so FF taught him that. I also worked on concept webs with him and ordering of paragraphs and supporting ideas. The beginning levels work on listening comprehension and forming words and sentences. I used those to work on auditory listening and building fluency and vocabulary. I was determined to get every bit of juice out of the lemon since I paid for a BIG LEMON. 

 

 

My coach would give you a free skype consult and webinar.  She can better explain what the program does as far as fine tuning the auditory processing system. I do wish it was offered to every child in 1st grade. I also wish that parents with children who have any kind of reading disorder even dyslexia could have the program for free paid by the state because  Barton would be so much easier for them if they did FF Foundations first in my opinion. 

I have a nephew who has tubes in his ears from ear infections and if I could pay for the program and get my sister in law to do it I would because I believe it would save him so many years of trials that my son has experienced. 

It only addressed specific kids but the kids it helps it helps alot as in my sons case.  I shared this story before but at the follow up yearly testing my son had re mediated his CAPD 100%. He went up in all areas in some cases 3 standard deviations. The audiologist and SLP were astounded and so impressed that FF did that. They didn't know how to offer the program to parents because of the cost and that it isn't covered by insurance. Its sold as a reading program but it works for Auditory Processing. 

 

Do the auditory testing and then pm me if you want some feedback on the test results. I am happy to chat on the phone. I have lots of ideas about Auditory Processing. I feel like I put as much time into researching it for my son as I did my graduate degree. 

Edited by exercise_guru

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4 hours ago, exercise_guru said:

 

Do the auditory testing and then pm me if you want some feedback on the test results. I am happy to chat on the phone. I have lots of ideas about Auditory Processing. I feel like I put as much time into researching it for my son as I did my graduate degree. 

Thank you so much, that's an extremely kind offer! Too bad we can't get graduate credit from our personal research. 

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You might look into LiPS. LiPS helps to distinguish the different sounds by first seeing and feeling how the different sounds are made with our lips, mouth, tongue, nose and/or vocal cords. Once those difference can be felt, the may be form the needed brain connections to hear them. It takes a different approach from Fast ForWord but the first part of LiPS aims at correcting/developing what Fast ForWord tries to correct/develop. It's been a long time since I read and gone over the research on LiPS and but it is fairly well researched and it's been around for many years. The LiPS training and full materials can be expensive, but a new manual can be purchased for around $138 and old manuals are available for significantly less. LiPS also covers materials that overlap with the first few levels of Barton's Reading and Spelling. 

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Lips is probably a very good program. I have always been interested in it. My son's Speach therapy focused on the function of the R sound and where it was in the mouth at different times and how the toungue and the jaw interacted. He had a retatined reflex called jaw toungue disassociation where he when his jaw moved his toungue went with it. He was able to pronounce all sounds but the letter R in all its forms. I am sure that it is because at an early age he had ear infections and he actually had a congenital situation where there was a flap of skin in his ear canal. That is likely why he didn't hear that sound quite correctly and hence didn't program his brain to pronounce R correctly. It was a minor condition, easily fixed in 2nd grade but caused long term challenges with Auditory Processing. 

Lips would  work for many auditory awareness issues only if the child could get give enough cooperation and enough repetitions to get the brain to recognize it. This whole process is building neural pathways. Repetition and approximation, It takes time and it takes consistency and most importantly it takes resilience to keep trying until the brain fires consistently on the right pattern. 

I think the reason why many of these programs do not achieve the success needed is either they are not the right program, or the child could not get enough time,cooperation and repetition to achieve the effects of neuroplasticity in building that skill. Know how the sound shape works isn't enough. Its like Basketball : shooting enough baskets where you are consistantly sinking the ball through the net is the key. Hitting a basket here or there isn't enough. It takes time and effort. 

That being said Fast Forword was pretty good at keeping the kid shooting the baskets until those specific skills were achieved. I didn't like the Hearbuilder with their level achievement method. We had to reset the game a few times and reward heavily to make sure enough repetitions got in to achieve success with that program. You see this in programs where a kid gets stuck at a level and can't progress, the program keeps making the child repeat that level. It gets discouraging and a discouraged mind does not get the repetitions in to remediate. This never happens with Fast Forward Foundations because the program is sophisticated. Its algorithm switches between modes and levels so the brain always is doing something that its  good at. It tricks you into doing enough repetitions of the challenging frequencies or sound to get that 90% adherence consistently. My son finished foundations in May and he now plays a mean guitar with good rhythm. Something he  could not do prior to FF. That tells me that the program had lasting gains. I won't know for sure until we test him again in May but he is getting A's and handling school much better. 

BrainHQ will give you as many repetitions as you need as well but the tracking software is primitive and I just felt like I was shooting baskets everyday like brushing my teeth. I didn't have enough reward to motivate to do it consistantly everyday with the same game to get the improvement required. Eventually I set a timer and played the same game for 20 minutes. This was similiar to the study they did with BrainHQ. Even then it was pretty lame to have to use all my willpower to log on to work on the same game everyday. I should have just set a goal for 30 days and then moved on to the next game I was poor at. That would have ensured enough repetitions but at the same time it is just so annoying to shoot baskets over and over again to get the repetitions. 

Edited by exercise_guru

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Ok, I'm looking at some videos of the FFW games. In this video, game one could be accomplished using the game A Fist Full of Coins. Game 2, working on basic syntax and language processing, would be accomplished with The Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper. The game three with fishes is much like Earobics and you are doing the same idea with any basic phonological work. Now am I saying those options are BETTER or the game is better? I think that game 3 with the fish sounds is really efficient. The game 2 for syntax is fine but it's inefficient given that an SLP can work on those skills faster and have the expressive language component that is missing. For game one with the working memory, fine, whatever, both ways work. Doing it with a therapist, again, allows them to bring in expressive language.

So in the three games I'm seeing of the 5 or 6 in the FFW subscription, I think the weakness is attention to expressive language. My ds could do those things passively when we worked through materials, but reality is he needs to be able to SPEAK and use his language. 

 

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This video shows 3 more FFW games. The first two work on phonological processing and are fine-tuned in a way that is more intense that Earobics or what you'd accomplish working with the dc yourself. It's not that you don't target those skills, but the intensity and independence are both great features. The 3rd game, again, is hitting skills covered in The Grammar Processing Program (GPP) from Super Duper. Now I think this software is really nice and if I could have had affordable access when we were going through GPP it might have been very complementary! If your kids hitting these skills are getting 20 minutes a week per their IEP, then being able to reinforce them with software is terrific. The content is not bad, the content is good.

Seems like good stuff. It's not stuff you *can't* do other ways, but it's stuff that possibly isn't getting one other ways or could be done MORE. Take the syntax. Why does an older student need that? Clearly that student should have had goals in his IEP and been given interaction. But I fought the system and know those kids don't always have those goals. The ps here didn't even own the tests to show ds' issues, let alone deciding to write goals for them. So if the kid has those deficits but the system no longer cares and just wants to move on to academic goals, then again this is a nice way to go back and fill those gaps. The dc will still have issues because it's all passive/receptive, not being generalized, not being used actively. So the less well someone generalizes, the more that's going to be a serious issue. The software is working on the assumption that being able to do it passively (receptively, but listening and ticking with a mouse) will result in the kid being able to USE it for speech. But it looks like good stuff, sure.

Here's that other video showing more of the games. 

 

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Ok, another video, hehe, this time with games from their Literacy module. Game one on this is a variant of Sound Sweeps, which EG had mentioned. Honestly I can't tell what in the world the game is doing, which probably means something about my brain, lol. I guess let's refer to EG's comments on screening for needing Sound Sweeps. She said to trial it on that other site, yes? To me that would be good to have a screener for. 

Game two, again, is so much like GPP that I don't see the point. It's fine and independent, and maybe a bit more mature, but you're missing that expressive language component that is the bigger problem. It might be addressing some of the other issues like categories, etc. that Word Callers (Cartwright) mentions, can't totally tell. It says it's working on vocabulary, but some of that vocabulary is what SLPs call "concepts" and some might be your FFC (feature, function, class, aka descriptions, actions, categories, synonyms, aka parts of speech like adjectives, verbs, etc.). So it's good and just a question of how you want to cover it and whether the kid is getting goals and service time to work on those things or whether it's more likely to happen with software.

Ok, game 3 seems to be actual academic vocabulary. This is something debated in SLP circles, because they're always looking for what is pivotal and what will bump grade levels. This is sort of the book on it, and it explains tiers and how they decide what words to work on.                                             Bringing Words to Life, Second Edition: Robust Vocabulary Instruction                                       So to me, again, what is that telling us if a 6th grader needs to work on words like hatch and stem? Why doesn't that dc have SLP goals? Refer back to system and reality that not everything gets serviced. So if it's not being serviced, it's definitely not a bad thing to be working on it this way. It looks like this game may be bringing in some category work. It might be it has a scope/sequence that goes through quite a few vocabulary skills (attributes, functions, categories, synonyms, etc.) that maybe we know need to be serviced but aren't making goals for. So again, hitting it with tech is moving forward at that point.

So I can see WHY people are using this, but it's not the only way. Some of it will be better than doing it with an SLP, because of the engagement and intense practice. Some of the skills would be better with an SLP if possible. Definitely wouldn't be a blank statement for all kids but more screening. My ds would find some of the games engaging (not hard but maybe enough thought to make them useful) and some he'd be asking why he was doing them as they'd be boring. So even kids who've had intervention might enjoy time and the ability to do targeted portions.

Here's that video. 

 

 

Edited by PeterPan

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On 2/23/2019 at 11:49 AM, merry gardens said:

You might look into LiPS. LiPS helps to distinguish the different sounds by first seeing and feeling how the different sounds are made with our lips, mouth, tongue, nose and/or vocal cords. Once those difference can be felt, the may be form the needed brain connections to hear them. It takes a different approach from Fast ForWord but the first part of LiPS aims at correcting/developing what Fast ForWord tries to correct/develop. It's been a long time since I read and gone over the research on LiPS and but it is fairly well researched and it's been around for many years. The LiPS training and full materials can be expensive, but a new manual can be purchased for around $138 and old manuals are available for significantly less. LiPS also covers materials that overlap with the first few levels of Barton's Reading and Spelling. 

Sorry, I missed your post. I'm already a huge fan of LiPS. It's the best! I just love it. This kid's particular problem isn't phonemic awareness, though, in fact his is pretty stellar. It's listening, following directions, executive functioning, etc. I love LiPS with my dyslexic students.

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3 hours ago, Mainer said:

It's listening, following directions, executive functioning, etc.

Do you have language testing to know what is causing the issues with the listening and following directions? If it's due to syntax, FFC type stuff, etc., yes the FFW is hitting it and no Earobics and LIPS would not hit those things. So you'd just need data. 

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11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Do you have language testing to know what is causing the issues with the listening and following directions? If it's due to syntax, FFC type stuff, etc., yes the FFW is hitting it and no Earobics and LIPS would not hit those things. So you'd just need data. 

We have some testing, but mostly the tests show that the problem exists, not why the problem is there. What kind of tests are done for syntax, etc? Severe ADHD is also in the mix. I never knew how miserable ADHD could be until I went to public school. In the school for learning disabilities, everyone had similar issues, so everyone was accommodated. Seeing that kind of kid try to function in a regular classroom is painful to watch. 

FFW has a 2 month free trial, so I'll report back what I see on there. Thank you for the videos!!

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The ps SLPs are usually cramped for both time and tests they can run. So no, our ps didn't have the tests to show ds' issues. They were running overall tools like the CELF, but the CELF has really poor sensitivity. Or the other term, I'm bad with terms and lazy. There's sensitivity and specificity, and the one term means it's accurate when it does give a positive and the other means how many people it's MISSING (false negatives). So the CELF needs a higher cut score (which you can find by googling) or you miss a bunch of people. And it provides models, which allows kids like mine to look ok. 

With my ds we used the SPELT (structured photographic expressive language test) and the TNL (test of narrative language). The SPELT has no models, so either they can get it out with the picture prompt or they can't. The TNL is a narrative language test but that can also be done dynamically. I've seen complaints saying the TNL under-identifies. Fine, whatever. Caught my ds. I tend to think (and this is just my opinion) that the SLPs saying it under-identifies haven't done it enough to see the gradations. It's just my suspicion. They get it, do it twice, and are like dang it didn't identify narrative language issues in this girl who talks but I know has issues, blah blah. Well fine, I'm just saying some kids are worse and it caught my ds'. I think in general knowledge of how to intervene for narrative and syntax issues are really poor in the SLP community and that's why they haven't got a clue how to screen. It goes together. Good tool, see the deficits, go oh my lands I have to intervene, intervene, realize what it should look like, get better at identifying and knowing what you're seeing in the results.

So the syntax issues and the narrative actually go together. MW/SGM has info correlating them, and there's a professor from out west doing some work on sentence complexity and reading comprehension. So when a kid isn't getting out narratives, then is the syntax, the semantics, the actual ability to use those words, there? Your two earliest stages of narrative (description and action narratives) and driven by basics like adjectives and verbs. My ds didn't have those as tools, so his work on vocabulary and semantics (100% Vocabulary by Rothstein, your FFC stuff = attributes, categories, comparisons, functions, etc.) opened up his ability to use those adjectives and verbs. Once he had those useful, he could begin building narratives. Now we want to move to those level 3 and 4 narratives per MW/SGM, and we're going to need -ly adverbs and to talk about HOW it makes them feel and why. 

The info MW/SGM uses came from another source, maybe Zippoli? There's a whole book on language disabilities and it has articles by all the bigwigs. That sequence is not actually unique to her. She researched and then compiled it into something people could open and understand.                                             Treatment of Language Disorders in Children (CLI)                                       Here's one of the books. You can probably find the Zippoli article Unraveling Difficult Sentences. And from that Language Disorders book I was looking at the Balthazaar article. She'll send you a copy or you might be able to get it with better access. 

Yeah, painful sounds about right. Even when you pull them out and do things another way though, there's still that guilt. You're getting more push in an inclusion setting, but the problems spiral and get exponentially worse and seemingly insurmountable as the others move on and the dc with a disability can't. Even intervention isn't enough if they can't TARGET WHAT'S WRONG. 

There's another article floating around suggesting that the list of syntactic structures to target is actually relatively short. I think the list was like 4. So I think if you banged out FFW (which hits a lot of basic language comprehension stuff we were hitting with that 100% Vocabulary Rothstein, etc.) then you could go into syntax intervention. But again, the weakness of the software is NOT USING IT ACTIVELY and expressively. Life is not lived by tapping on screens, except maybe for screen addicts. They need to be able to form sentences for everything they're doing and actually get it out.

I've never had an SLP offer to do what actually needed to be done with my ds. I have a $27k a year scholarship and could have paid. I tried SLPs in multiple major cities. The materials are out there, but NO ONE I talked with was ever like oh yeah let's go back to the beginning and make sure he can describe things and categorize things and actually get it out and be that nitpicky. Nobody wanted to go all the way back to nothing. We had offers to do AAC. For real. But what I did myself, for lack of someone willing to do it, was totally tedious. I guess you could say I did Tier 3 syntax intervention, haha. FFW would be tier 1 syntax intervention. Some of these games the speech therapy sites sell, same gig, tier 1. Then you get your sorta tier 2 interventions like the expanding expressions tool (EET). So if a kid needs tier 3 and he gets a tier 1 (I'm making this up) level of intervention, then that's why he's coming out still crunchy. That tier 3 could be done, but it was totally custom and time-consuming and intensive. I did it, but I'm not even sure you could pay me to do it for someone else. And I couldn't find anyone else I could pay who was willing to do it. They literally weren't willing. I think it's more like what Balthazaar is doing, a geek level, phd level, insanely detailed intervention. But it's dumb because the materials EXIST and these people are paid (supposedly) $100-140 an hour around here. So you tell me WHY someone is getting paid $100+ an hour and can't bring more to the table? Makes me SPIT.

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I'm feeling sort of brilliant on my idea of labeling semantics intervention with tiers, haha. They don't though, do they? They have tiers for reading intervention, but not language. And think about what that means. That means that my kid, who really needed that tier 3, uber-explicit, scaled, careful, tediously spiraled intervention, COULD NOT GET IT in the system, because every SLP thought if she had done EET she had done enough. Well EET is like comparing RightStart math and Ronit Bird. Anybody who has done both knows the latter makes no assumptions and has to go way back, go through it even more carefully, and take teeny tiny steps. 

We're having a lot of fun with our intervention work right now btw. Ds just had a growth spurt and his abilities now are a real pleasure to work with. In some ways its really overwhelming, but there's also this pleasurable point when you finally realize how all the pieces FIT and you're like oh you mean I just keep intervening and we can get anywhere? It's amazing. But behind, yeah we're like way behind, sigh. But progressing and hopeful, that too.

This is a total aside, but there's another article by Ellesseff on her blog Help, My Child is Receiving All These Therapies But It’s NOT Helping  where she explores this idea of why various therapies aren't working and how to back up and find the glitch. What really struck me was her comments on how LANGUAGE is the piece holding back some of the talk-based interventions. So we're like oh I sent the kid to a counselor, he can solve his problems. But what impact does the language disability have on the dc's ability to be in there and access that opportunity and not be stressed? Interesting implications. I just thought maybe you have kids like that, where the language issues are showing up in real life in the good things you're trying to give them access to.

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28 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Here's that info on the CELF and cutoff scores. https://www.leadersproject.org/2014/02/17/test-review-celf-5/

Thank you SO MUCH for all of your thoughts. I'm going to have to take some time to digest what you said about testing above. I agree with you about the CELF. It told us, oh, he has trouble remembering directions that are more than a sentence long, but it DIDN'T tell us what to do to address that deficit. And so on. I wish I was either an SLP or just really, really informed about what to target based on testing. I'm technically decently educated, (master's in special education) yet I'm at sea here! It's frustrating. I know I CAN do well if I know which tools to use, but do I need a doctorate? Also frustrating is that I could spend all of my evenings and weekends reading articles, researching, etc., but should that really be necessary on a schoolteacher's salary?

I want that $100-$400 an hour! Lol.

Just whining here. I don't like wasting people's time with things that "might" be good. Like, we're going to do Visualizing and Verbalizing. I KNOW that's a god one. But when a kid is staring middle school in the face, time is short, you know?

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20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm feeling sort of brilliant on my idea of labeling semantics intervention with tiers, haha. They don't though, do they? They have tiers for reading intervention, but not language. And think about what that means. That means that my kid, who really needed that tier 3, uber-explicit, scaled, careful, tediously spiraled intervention, COULD NOT GET IT in the system, because every SLP thought if she had done EET she had done enough.

This WOULD be brilliant! I mean, reading is complicated and all, but it's way less complicated (in my mind, anyway) than ALL OF LANGUAGE. Whoa. 

 

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

We're having a lot of fun with our intervention work right now btw. Ds just had a growth spurt and his abilities now are a real pleasure to work with. In some ways its really overwhelming, but there's also this pleasurable point when you finally realize how all the pieces FIT and you're like oh you mean I just keep intervening and we can get anywhere? It's amazing. But behind, yeah we're like way behind, sigh. But progressing and hopeful, that too.

Yay! It's cool that you get to see all of the pieces build and fit together. 

22 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This is a total aside, but there's another article by Ellesseff on her blog Help, My Child is Receiving All These Therapies But It’s NOT Helping  where she explores this idea of why various therapies aren't working and how to back up and find the glitch. What really struck me was her comments on how LANGUAGE is the piece holding back some of the talk-based interventions. So we're like oh I sent the kid to a counselor, he can solve his problems. But what impact does the language disability have on the dc's ability to be in there and access that opportunity and not be stressed? Interesting implications. I just thought maybe you have kids like that, where the language issues are showing up in real life in the good things you're trying to give them access to.

I'm off to read! Well, after some kids. But then reading 😄 

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8 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Like, we're going to do Visualizing and Verbalizing. I KNOW that's a god one. But when a kid is staring middle school in the face, time is short, you know?

Ok, so let's bring it full circle. Your V/V work is going to blend with the language work. See how they overlap so you're building multiple skills at once. What you WANT is for him to be able to write an expository paragraph where he describes something or gives a sequence, right? So describing is vocabulary (100% Vocab by Rothstein) and you're going to be DESCRIBING with V/V. So you build the language, apply the language with pictures, apply it with real life, then apply it to academics. It was a progression. At least that's how I think of it and am doing it.

Don't see the V/V as different. It's the same thing. Once you do those attribute chapters in 100% Rothstein, then go do the V/V cards (which I have, they're awesome) and you'll be cussing up a nice little storm at how well he's doing! V/V was going at it the hard way. It's great organization, but it's an inefficient way to do the actual language intervention for a capable dc. With strong language intervention materials, you can build the language more quickly then apply it via V/V, boom.

Also, I wouldn't make the *assumption* that the dc can't visualize without evidence. My ds caught on very quickly and has no trouble visualizing. What he had trouble with was the language component of V/V. And they're happy to sell you V/V to treat language, but that's just inefficient. Build the language with worksheets and strong intervention games and then apply it with the V/V cards, boom.

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Or don't. I'm just saying when you realize how they overlap, you have that choice.

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13 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Also frustrating is that I could spend all of my evenings and weekends reading articles, researching, etc., but should that really be necessary on a schoolteacher's salary?

Ok, I'm an arrogant cuss. My two cents is that I don't assume someone is *smarter* than I am, only that they're more *experienced*. I don't find the research to have the answers I need, but I can learn from their experiences and form an opinion. Sometimes it just validates my own theories. I don't assume someone else's ideas are better than mine, because I know the kid I'm dealing with right in front of me. 

So I would spend your time figuring out how these programs and systems overlap. If you hope a system or program will solve your tier 3 kids' problems, hang it up. That's where the breakdown is. It's always going to be thinking through the kid, the issues, and pulling what will work. It's back to the basics you've done for 20+ years and know. It's just a new set of basics is all.

 

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm an arrogant cuss. My two cents is that I don't assume someone is *smarter* than I am, only that they're more *experienced*. I don't find the research to have the answers I need, but I can learn from their experiences and form an opinion. Sometimes it just validates my own theories. I don't assume someone else's ideas are better than mine, because I know the kid I'm dealing with right in front of me. 

Definitely. The experience is the key. 

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so let's bring it full circle. Your V/V work is going to blend with the language work. See how they overlap so you're building multiple skills at once. What you WANT is for him to be able to write an expository paragraph where he describes something or gives a sequence, right? So describing is vocabulary (100% Vocab by Rothstein) and you're going to be DESCRIBING with V/V. So you build the language, apply the language with pictures, apply it with real life, then apply it to academics. It was a progression. At least that's how I think of it and am doing it.

I'm not 100% sure on where the breakdown for him is yet - it's either the language holding him back, or the ADHD making sustained attention on reading difficult, or, most likely, both. He's a super, fun, amazing kid, and with a big range of strengths and weaknesses.

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So I would spend your time figuring out how these programs and systems overlap.

I didn't mean to sound like a curmudgeon earlier - just that I hate not having the time to adequately research what can work for a child, yet be expected to help the child make progress. And I don't want a little bit of progress, I want a whole lot, ya know?

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5 hours ago, Mainer said:

it's either the language holding him back, or the ADHD making sustained attention on reading difficult,

It's a really good question. If I were only looking at my ds, I'd want to say he's flighty and ADHD and that's why he doesn't read. But then I look at my dd, supremely ADHD (oy, oy) and she read just fine. And I have data to show the language issues in ds and when I see the Quotient results, I DON'T see it, despite the psychs and everyone else being like oh yeah, so obvious.

I think it's very hard to attend and do something that is too hard. It's a little bit easier, when you're ADHD, to attend and do something that you can do FAST, something you can do EASILY. 

That's probably why I go in circles with my ds, because I'm compensating for that "can't be too hard, has to be fast" thing.

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Its true its hard to know if the ADHD keeps them from concentrating enough to get the repetitions in to re mediate and help them excel. In my sons situation even if he was giving something his total attention, even hyperfocusing he could not follow directions and remember the words in his head long enough to get them out on paper. Does medication help at all? I ask because I have found that if it does help a good measure of their best best best is the window when the medication is working the best. If they still have the weakness even on medication it usually means that some kind of remediation is needed. For example before FF my son could not remember or sing the lyrics to songs. Now he sings all the time and can remember lyrics. This tells me that FF did help with the Auditory Memory. About 4 months into FF my son learned to turn his attention to the sound. You know when you hear a sound and then turn towards it? He couldn't do that before. A tool only works if it is the right tool. We have failed more programs than we have succeeded on 

PP yes you can hack some of FForward. The games aren't novel, its the way they are implemented. Especially the foundations stuff. It is about as exciting as watching paint dry to do this program but it is honestly just repetitions and fine tuning. Worst case scenario my son would have finished the program in 20 days and I would have been out 1500 bucks for the year.

Really anyone considering FF should get a consult and a demo and some initial sessions before commiting .  When I went with the coach I got the program for less money and for an entire year with a lot of support. I didn't get the 30 day refund. Luckily my son demo'd the program enough that I had some confidence we could do it and it might help. 

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