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Coding "bootcamps" and other options?


MerryAtHope
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DS is exploring computer coding right now (doing some online courses) and is interested in pursuing more. Has anyone done a coding bootcamp? How do you find a good one? Anyone know pros and cons vs. going to a university/getting some kind of degree?

I've been listening to programmers online say that you don't need math, you need logic for this career, but all the university "computer science" degrees require several math courses (calculus, finite mathematics etc...) I think DS would like an option to pursue coding type careers without needing all of the math, but what kind of degree would that be? 

Thanks for any help pointing us in the right direction!

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My much younger step-brother got his degree in the humanities, bummed around for a bit doing different things, then did one of these and now has a good job. I don't have any tips beyond this... I think a lot of places still want to see a degree of some kind, but I guess I'm saying... it's absolutely possible to go to one of these and then get a job coding. 

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He probably should be looking at getting an undergraduate certificate in programming or IT per Dh who has been working with my kids on planning their degrees, both in Cybersecurity.  He does know of the boot camps and has heard good things in terms of learning to program with a live instructor. I think it depends on what works best for your son’s learning style.....lots of inexpensive and free online classes out there.

Personally we are pro math background as I think it makes it easier.  We have had this discussion with several programmers that we know who have years of experience and successful careers.  The ones who don’t have the math background seem to wish they had one....wish they could have a do over and take the Calculus etc.

 

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I am an old Assembly Language guy.  Retired Software Engineering Consultant.   Systems Engineer.  Coding was not my forte because I was always switching languages from one client to the next client.  So, I do not understand, why everyone now wants to do Coding. There are much more rewarding ways to spend one's day working on a project.

Now, if I wanted to learn Coding, I would probably be looking for a (preferably Free) MOOC course in the "C" programming language. Or, possibly in Python or something else that is popular today.  

Why did I specify "C"?    Because that is a mid level language and although it will not give the person learning it the knowledge of the Hardware that doing Assembly Language would, it is far easier and it is widely used today (2019).

Good  luck with whatever you decide to go with.  One of my former colleagues, who was also a Mentor, told me, "I believe people should do the hardest thing they are capable of".   With computers, the hardest thing is Machine Language Programming (zeros and ones, which I have done and would not suggest to anyone who is not working on "bare metal".  Then, Assembly Language and then "C".

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1 minute ago, Lanny said:

I am an old Assembly Language guy.  Retired Software Engineering Consultant.   Systems Engineer.  Coding was not my forte because I was always switching languages from one client to the next client.  So, I do not understand, why everyone now wants to do Coding. There are much more rewarding ways to spend one's day working on a project.

 

LOL, I don't understand either! In fact...I'm not sure that when kids hear about and think about coding, they really understand what it could mean to sit and do that all day long, day after day. I found a video last night on the "perception" vs. "reality" that was really good and forwarded that to him! I'd love to hear your suggestions about "more rewarding ways to spend one's day working on a project" though. Career search has been a long and frustrating process for him (right now he has a Liberal Arts associate's degree and is on a gap year, and nothing really stands out to him in any field or trade, but he's mildly interested in coding. Go figure!) (And lest anyone ask, yes, he's done multiple aptitude tests, interest surveys, personality profiles, both free and paid varieties, trying to figure something out.) 

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Lots of careers use programming without it being what someone does all day. All different types of analysts, scientists, economists, statisticians, mathematicians, etc. 

Beforee pursuing any program, I would make sure they have excellent job placement stats. The better ones are probably going to have competitive admissions.

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13 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

 

LOL, I don't understand either! In fact...I'm not sure that when kids hear about and think about coding, they really understand what it could mean to sit and do that all day long, day after day. I found a video last night on the "perception" vs. "reality" that was really good and forwarded that to him! I'd love to hear your suggestions about "more rewarding ways to spend one's day working on a project" though. Career search has been a long and frustrating process for him (right now he has a Liberal Arts associate's degree and is on a gap year, and nothing really stands out to him in any field or trade, but he's mildly interested in coding. Go figure!) (And lest anyone ask, yes, he's done multiple aptitude tests, interest surveys, personality profiles, both free and paid varieties, trying to figure something out.) 

 

Well, this is a long way from Liberal Arts.   However, if he is interested in Music, there is a correlation between Music and Math. I once shared an office with two (2) people who had Music degrees and then went on to get an M.S. in Math and they were working as Software Engineers on a government project.

For me, with a Systems Engineering background, the best was being able to be in on a project from the beginning. The Requirements Analysis. The Design.  That's a very rare opportunity and usually one comes onto an existing project with a lot of Code that needs to be maintained and fixed or upgraded and it is often very hard to understand what someone else was trying to do with their Code and be able to fix it.  A lot of stuff is "V&V" (Verification and Validation) and there are a lot of positions for that.

Mildly interested in Coding or anything else, IMO, will not cut it.  What does he like to do in his "spare" time? Hobbies? Those may provide some clues.  He doesn't sound like someone that I believe would enjoy an Electronic Engineering Major or a Computer Science Major at this time.   For what I did, an Electronic Engineering degree or a Math degree is most appropriate, but there are a lot of people with other degrees (STEM or not) who are working as Software Engineers today. 

There are MANY MANY MANY types of Software Professionals today and MANY different degrees for them, but he does not seem to be focused enough on anything at this time for him to select a possible career. It would be like throwing darts. Very random is not a way to go.

Does he know anyone working as a Software Engineer or in some other field where they are doing Programming?

There are MANY different fields in "IT" for people who work with Business systems.

It is all very detailed and requires a lot of perseverance. 

There are people here on WTM who are working with computers today who have much more up-to-date experience than I do and their suggestions should carry a lot more weight than mine do.

ETA:   I did search for Free MOOC courses in the "C" programming language late yesterday.  They are out there. I think one was at Duke University?   Would be better for him to take the Programming Fundamentals course or whatever it is called, first, to see if he grasps the basic things and is interested in continuing.   That should be a prerequisite.   If he is on a Gap year, he really needs to continue studying something, or he will IMO forget most of what he has learned in the past. Good luck to him!

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 10:34 PM, MerryAtHope said:

DS is exploring computer coding right now (doing some online courses) and is interested in pursuing more. Has anyone done a coding bootcamp? How do you find a good one? Anyone know pros and cons vs. going to a university/getting some kind of degree?

I've been listening to programmers online say that you don't need math, you need logic for this career, but all the university "computer science" degrees require several math courses (calculus, finite mathematics etc...) I think DS would like an option to pursue coding type careers without needing all of the math, but what kind of degree would that be? 

Thanks for any help pointing us in the right direction!

I'm married to someone in the information security field, who didn't want to do the higher level math and programming for a comp sci degree.  He has a BA in business with an information systems concentration (although I think they have a cybersecurity focus now).  Our university required calculus and statistics, but I'm pretty sure DH stopped there.  He has certifications in "technical" areas, but those were obtained after college (and paid for by his employer).

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17 hours ago, Lanny said:

Mildly interested in Coding or anything else, IMO, will not cut it. 

 

LOL, this is not a person who gets "excited" about much (well, maybe a new movie). If he says a meal was "okay" that generally means "I liked this, please make it again." It took me years to learn how to translate! We joke about it, and I tell him, "here's how the rest of the world expresses that thought..." I'm actually pretty excited that he has interest in this enough to keep it on the table. We've been talking about interests and possibilities for 6 years. He's been able to rule lots of things out! But it's hard to rule something in if you don't know about it. I think the "thing" is out there if one of us can catch sight of it.

Quote

What does he like to do in his "spare" time? Hobbies? Those may provide some clues.  He doesn't sound like someone that I believe would enjoy an Electronic Engineering Major or a Computer Science Major at this time.   

 

I really don't think so either, but I'm having trouble knowing what to look at instead that involves coding. Web design? He's expressed some interest in graphic design, film, and photography, he wants something to specialize in (versus being a generalist), he wants something to do on a computer that would involve lots of time alone but also some time working as part of a team, and maybe something that occasionally allows for creativity. He likes chess (plays weekly), things that are logical and efficient, and also video games. Greatly dislikes change.  

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38 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

Saylor offers several classes for free which my kids have found useful.  https://learn.saylor.org/course/index.php?categoryid=9. Maybe he could take a look at these and discover something he is interested in and try the class or at least explore some of the readings. 

 

Thanks, I'll mention these to him. He's done a couple of free coding classes online this winter, and also joined a site called skill-share that has short classes from all different kinds of professionals. 

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10 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

<snip>

I really don't think so either, but I'm having trouble knowing what to look at instead that involves coding. Web design? He's expressed some interest in graphic design, film, and photography, he wants something to specialize in (versus being a generalist), he wants something to do on a computer that would involve lots of time alone but also some time working as part of a team, and maybe something that occasionally allows for creativity. He likes chess (plays weekly), things that are logical and efficient, and also video games. Greatly dislikes change.  

 

Generalist is a word I have on my resume. That should tell anyone who understands English that I am not "an expert" regarding the majority of the things on my resume.  It also tells them that I have great flexibility.  On one occasion, during a telephone interview, I asked the Hiring Manager (you know the name of the company) what Hardware and Software they were going to use on the project. He told me and I replied, "You have my resume, you know that I have no experience with that Hardware or that Computer Language".     After I got there and began working, it was obvious that he needed other things that I had on my resume and that the "Job Shop" recruiter had submitted my resume to them based on another requirement he had from them.  He was interested in some of my Systems Engineering background and not my knowledge (or in this case lack of knowledge)  of some computer language or Intel hardware.  

There is a possible  danger in one becoming too specialized in a rapidly advancing area involving Computer Hardware or Software. Here is the danger: Sometimes those things become obsolete.

So, while I do not believe that it is bad for someone to become an expert with something involving Computer Hardware or Software, I believe it is crucial that one is flexible and continues to learn new skills.  

I do not play Chess but that is a War Game, so yes, possibly some kind of Video Game work.

He wants lots of time alone? Does he think that he is going to work in an office with a lot of people and have a private office? Probably not, unless he is the Manager.  There is a lot of Team Work involved and the end goal is to ship a product to the customer that works properly.  There are meetings to attend and to participate in.  One painful meeting that I was in was when the Supervisor or Manager asked the Engineer who designed the Hardware I was working on what was wrong and when it would work. He had no idea.  The Software Group I was in ended up redesigning the Hardware I was working on. That is where an Electronic Engineering background really helps, if someone is working with Hardware.

The kind of stuff that I worked on (Real-Time Operating Systems, Firmware, etc.) does require a great deal of coordination and there are probably going to be a lot of people sitting near to where he is sitting unless he is working at home, remotely, telecommuting.

I wonder if he took the test required for enlisting in the U.S. Army or the U.S. Air Force, what kind of things those tests would come up with for him, with his current interests?   Possibly you can find samples of those Online?

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9 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

 

Thanks, I'll mention these to him. He's done a couple of free coding classes online this winter, and also joined a site called skill-share that has short classes from all different kinds of professionals. 

My son, who is my kid who loves programming, would say there is something wrong if you can’t find it for free on the internet in terms of coding etc.  The online coding community seems to be a pretty nice place in terms of helping others learn.  

That being said they are both applying to graduate CS programs on bothe sides of the Atlantic right now and my daughter was asked to prove she knew a variety of languages and a few other skills that were not apparent on her transcript by one program..... FYI,  this was one in England.  The quickest and easiest way was a variety of MOOC’s with completion certificates that we paid a small amount for.  Sometimes certificates are useful.  😀  Edx had the most availiable and cheapest ones I believe.

Also at the start of my son’s coding “career”, he was a 12 yo making basic games and putting them out to be played mainly by his friends, he wanted to be a game programmer. Then he learned that you normally only get to do a very small piece of the game.  For he that spoiled it and he moved on to other things. 😂

 

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8 hours ago, Lanny said:

 There is a possible  danger in one becoming too specialized in a rapidly advancing area involving Computer Hardware or Software. Here is the danger: Sometimes those things become obsolete.

So, while I do not believe that it is bad for someone to become an expert with something involving Computer Hardware or Software, I believe it is crucial that one is flexible and continues to learn new skills.  

 

Yes, he understands that. I was more trying to point to his type of work style--he's looking for the type of career that would be a better fit for a specialist personality rather than a "jack-of-all-trades" sort of personality.

8 hours ago, Lanny said:

He wants lots of time alone? Does he think that he is going to work in an office with a lot of people and have a private office? Probably not, unless he is the Manager. 

 

LOL, no, he's very familiar with cubicles etc...! Again, I was expressing a work or personality style. He's interested in collaboration but wants some kind of career where he would specialize in something and spend a lot of time working on it alone. Think introvert vs. extrovert. 

 

 

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I'm in a coding bootcamp right now! The bootcamp industry is mostly unregulated and of varying levels of quality. Mine caters to job-changers and actually requires the students to already have a college degree in some field.

To be honest, the bootcamp model is not one in which I've personally become comfortable. It's a way to get trained for a new career on a short time period, but I feel like I could learn more if there was more direct instruction and not as much "throw you into a project and you'll figure it out." Stress and lack of sleep are not conducive to retaining learning, even if "coding all night" is a hacker's badge of honor.

I would ask a lot of questions about what is in the curriculum - do they go narrow and deep or broad and shallow? (Mine is definitely the latter.) Is the bootcamp instructor required to cover all of the curriculum or could it be "adapted" (i.e. not covered)? Is there career support afterwards? If so, meet the career advisor. Talk to current and former students, but realize that there is a lot of pressure not to say bad things about the school (because we want our school's reputation to benefit our career and because our instructors are our job references). For whatever topics are covered, do a search on Indeed or a similar site to see how often the keywords come up. Especially in web programming, 'hot' skills change rapidly so curriculum needs to change rapidly as well.

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On 2/12/2019 at 11:34 PM, MerryAtHope said:

DS is exploring computer coding right now (doing some online courses) and is interested in pursuing more. Has anyone done a coding bootcamp? How do you find a good one? Anyone know pros and cons vs. going to a university/getting some kind of degree?

I've been listening to programmers online say that you don't need math, you need logic for this career, but all the university "computer science" degrees require several math courses (calculus, finite mathematics etc...) I think DS would like an option to pursue coding type careers without needing all of the math, but what kind of degree would that be? 

Thanks for any help pointing us in the right direction!

My oldest is doing CS right now, and the way Purdue explained the different Computer majors when he was trying to choose was that the Computer Science people are into the theory behind the programming languages (hence the math heavy course sequence), the Computer Engineering people are into how the theory interacts with software for different applications, and the Computer Engineering Technology people are into how the applications actually work and fiddling with them in a hands on way. Those are generalizations, of course, but it did help DS narrow down what he wanted to major in besides just knowing he wanted to work with computers. 

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@OP     Possibly he would be interested in taking this Free MOOC course?  It has no Prerequisites and is from UMichigan.  They say it is 7 weeks and 2 to 4 hours a week. I would plan on 4 hours a week.

https://www.edx.org/course/programming-for-everybody-getting-started-with-python

ETA:  Below is a list of different courses. You can see the number of students who've enrolled in them and the average rating the courses have received:

https://www.coursera.org/courses?query=python

ETA #2:

This is cool...  If he really might be interested in a career with computer Software...   The Specialization is estimated to take about 3 months and approximately 8 hours per week. Enrollment starts today, 18 FEB 2019.  Below is the URL:

https://www.coursera.org/specializations/c-programming

ETA #3:  I was curious about the cost of the Specialization in ETA #2.  I logged into my Coursera account. It is $49 per month. So, if one completes that in 3 months, it is $147.   If one completes it faster, it will cost less.

 

 

 

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