Ugh help

[hippiemamato3]

12 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

No problem. I am not always clear. 

I don't know where the lines are drawn, KWIM?

I feel like I don't have a clear picture of how this works, so then I try to fill in the blanks, only to be told No, that is not right! But a whole picture can't really be painted online so it is natural to me to kind of fill it in.

Like the idea that if they are chaperoned, they can of course have a private conversation!  And if you think otherwise, you're getting the wrong impression!

 

I think it's a flawed system, and you aren't wrong. 

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, unsinkable said:

Well, you're a brighter bulb than me. 

BC I'm still not sure how it works.

Can girls and boys who aren't courting spend time alone together? Like Scarlett's son and this girl are friends. Can they be alone together? COULD they have been alone together, years ago, back when the community thought they might have ended up together?

Is it once kids enter puberty, the sexes can't be along together? Bc that is kinda a loophole, isn't it. I catch feelings for someone who is a friend...And he catches feelings for me, but since we are only "friends" we get to be alone together.

And not just to have any level of physical relationship, necessarily. But just to BE...to talk, laugh, flirt, argue, be quiet, stare at each other...

 

 

I hadn't thought about that. 

Now I’m wondering, too!

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

No, I'm talking about THIS engaged girl...the girl the thread is about. Her son is not engaged to this girl. But at one point, people in the community speculated Scarlett's son and THIS girl might end up together. So, does/did that mean they weren't allowed to be alone together?

But the specifics were just to get to the point of the general question:

Can post (or near) puberty opposite sex (young or not!) people spend time alone together?

Can a 16 yo girl and 16 yo boy to go the movies? Drive to church/services? Talk a walk? Just the 2 of them if they are NOT courting? Or if they have no romantic feeligs/attractions to each other? 

What about a 23 yo woman and man? Same questions. Can they be alone together?

 

I don’t know if there is an age limit. That’s an interesting question.

When Scarlett and her dh were dating, they were both divorced adults so they didn’t need a chaperone, right? But what if they were both, say, 35 years old but neither of them had ever married? Chaperone or no chaperone?

 

[hippiemamato3]

14 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t know if there is an age limit. That’s an interesting question.

When Scarlett and her dh were dating, they were both divorced adults so they didn’t need a chaperone, right? But what if they were both, say, 35 years old but neither of them had ever married? Chaperone or no chaperone?

 

If they were single and not allowed pre-marital sex then I assume they would have had a chaperone...right? 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

No problem. I am not always clear. 

I don't know where the lines are drawn, KWIM?

I feel like I don't have a clear picture of how this works, so then I try to fill in the blanks, only to be told No, that is not right! But a whole picture can't really be painted online so it is natural to me to kind of fill it in.

Like the idea that if they are chaperoned, they can of course have a private conversation!  And if you think otherwise, you're getting the wrong impression!

 

 

Scarlett is probably reading our posts and wondering how we can be so clueless that we don’t understand this stuff! 🙂

The concept of teens having to be in groups and with chaperones is so different from anything I have ever experienced, that I admit it’s hard for me to figure out how it works, and it seems so restrictive to me that as soon as I hear about it, I start thinking of loopholes and ways to get around the rules.

Also, how does it work if a teen wants to date another teen who is not the same religion? Is that allowed? Do they still have to follow all of the same rules, and again, is there an age limit to the need for chaperones? (I am also trying to figure out how it works if a teen is away at college and there is no one there who can chaperone.)

As for the private conversations, maybe the couple can sit at a separate table at a restaurant as long as they are where the chaperones can see them? I’m just guessing! 

I can’t picture how this particular couple could have a private conversation in a tiny trailer with 4 other people, though, unless they did a lot of whispering — and that would seem rude. That’s why I was thinking they might want to sneak off for a little time alone. I would feel so claustrophobic if I thought people were watching my every move when I was with my boyfriend or fiancé, but maybe it’s different when you’re raised that way because it seems normal to you.

[hippiemamato3]

I can't really imagine that all JW teens/young adults are following these rules about being chaperoned...once in college or in the world and living on their own - it's just not practical! Who has time to chaperone other people's dates all the time? 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, hippiemamato3 said:

If they were single and not allowed pre-marital sex then I assume they would have had a chaperone...right? 

 

I don’t know — if I was 40-something years old, I would feel like I was being treated like a naughty child if someone told me I needed a chaperone if I wanted to go out on a date. 

Do adults really feel that other adults won’t be able to control themselves if they are alone with a date? Or is it just a tradition, so no one thinks of it that way?

The more I think about this, the more I realize how much I don’t know! 🙂

 

[Catwoman]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

I can't really imagine that all JW teens/young adults are following these rules about being chaperoned...once in college or in the world and living on their own - it's just not practical! Who has time to chaperone other people's dates all the time? 

 

I can’t, either, but maybe it’s because the whole concept is so foreign to us. I have never known anyone who had a chaperone on their dates. 

[unsinkable]

10 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Scarlett is probably reading our posts and wondering how we can be so clueless that we don’t understand this stuff! 🙂

The concept of teens having to be in groups and with chaperones is so different from anything I have ever experienced, that I admit it’s hard for me to figure out how it works, and it seems so restrictive to me that as soon as I hear about it, I start thinking of loopholes and ways to get around the rules.

Also, how does it work if a teen wants to date another teen who is not the same religion? Is that allowed? Do they still have to follow all of the same rules, and again, is there an age limit to the need for chaperones? (I am also trying to figure out how it works if a teen is away at college and there is no one there who can chaperone.)

As for the private conversations, maybe the couple can sit at a separate table at a restaurant as long as they are where the chaperones can see them? I’m just guessing! 

I can’t picture how this particular couple could have a private conversation in a tiny trailer with 4 other people, though, unless they did a lot of whispering — and that would seem rude. That’s why I was thinking they might want to sneak off for a little time alone. I would feel so claustrophobic if I thought people were watching my every move when I was with my boyfriend or fiancé, but maybe it’s different when you’re raised that way because it seems normal to you.

LOL...I hope she doesn't think we're clueless! But if she does, do you want to be Cher or Dionne?

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

LOL...I hope she doesn't think we're clueless! But if she does, do you want to be Cher or Dionne?

 

I’m Cher and you’re Dionne. Unless you really want to be Dionne. I’m flexible! 😁

[Scarlett]

Sigh.  I feel a little bit like you guys are making fun of me or my religion.  People of the opposite sex don't spend time alone together. And as to the before puberty question....that is so strange to me....I don't leave kids alone either.  My son is an adult and can do as he wants, but he CHOOSES a level of being chaperoned that he is comfortable with.  Not every person in my faith sets the exact same limits as to being chaperoned.  But it is a protection for couples who wish to remain chaste.  Sure I know there are some of you who dated for 6 years and were alone or even slept in the same bed and stayed virgins.  It is not realistic to believe everyone could handle that.  So thus the concept of not being alone together.  That doesn't mean people who are dating don't meet up at a restaurant to have a meal alone.  And there are other times when they might be with a big group but manage to talk in private....like walking at the park or whatever.  It may seem restrictive to some of you, but it doesn't seem that way to us. 

And the above is why it is strongly discouraged to allow young teens to date since they really aren't ready to marry.  And it is our congregations issue with this couple...she is too young.  And he is too irresponsible.  But the chaperoning part is just how we live our lives.  

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Sigh.  I feel a little bit like you guys are making fun of me or my religion.  People of the opposite sex don't spend time alone together. And as to the before puberty question....that is so strange to me....I don't leave kids alone either.  My son is an adult and can do as he wants, but he CHOOSES a level of being chaperoned that he is comfortable with.  Not every person in my faith sets the exact same limits as to being chaperoned.  But it is a protection for couples who wish to remain chaste.  Sure I know there are some of you who dated for 6 years and were alone or even slept in the same bed and stayed virgins.  It is not realistic to believe everyone could handle that.  So thus the concept of not being alone together.  That doesn't mean people who are dating don't meet up at a restaurant to have a meal alone.  And there are other times when they might be with a big group but manage to talk in private....like walking at the park or whatever.  It may seem restrictive to some of you, but it doesn't seem that way to us. 

And the above is why it is strongly discouraged to allow young teens to date since they really aren't ready to marry.  And it is our congregations issue with this couple...she is too young.  And he is too irresponsible.  But the chaperoning part is just how we live our lives.  

 

 

I can say with confidence that no one is making fun of you or your religion. We just don’t have personal experience with your religion, so we are trying to understand the rules of dating. It seems like we have been making incorrect assumptions, and we don’t want to keep doing that. 

I thought I was being respectful by asking questions instead of continuing to make mistakes about this stuff. I was trying to understand so I didn’t accidentally post something stupid or insulting. 

I truly didn’t mean to offend you, Scarlett. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

I can say with confidence that no one is making fun of you or your religion. We just don’t have personal experience with your religion, so we are trying to understand the rules of dating. It seems like we have been making incorrect assumptions, and we don’t want to keep doing that. 

I thought I was being respectful by asking questions instead of continuing to make mistakes about this stuff. I was trying to understand so I didn’t accidentally post something stupid or insulting. 

I truly didn’t mean to offend you, Scarlett. 

Oh I am not offended.  Lots of people think we are weirdos. I am quite accustomed to that. 

Back to the original point of this thread....dh told me is he not going to their wedding shower.  I don't even know if he will go to the wedding.  I still don't know what ds and his girlfriend will do.  But it is their decision. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Oh I am not offended.  Lots of people think we are weirdos. I am quite accustomed to that. 

Back to the original point of this thread....dh told me is he not going to their wedding shower.  I don't even know if he will go to the wedding.  I still don't know what ds and his girlfriend will do.  But it is their decision. 

 

But no one is suggesting you’re a weirdo (at least not in this thread — I don’t know about the rest of your life, but I hope no one is mean to you!) Different is just... different. And as long as you’re happy, that’s all that really matters. You aren’t trying to impose restrictions on anyone else; you’re just doing what’s right for you. I think people are asking for more clarification in this particular thread because it’s hard to make any kind of useful comments without having more information. It all makes sense to you because it’s the way you live, but most of us probably don’t live the same way so we don’t understand how things work.
🙂

[SKL]

5 hours ago, unsinkable said:

I thought you guys were rural/small town like this guy; also poor/working class like this guy. And maybe didn't have more than a high school education like this guy. 

So here is a 26 yo in similar circumstances to your dad...And you started the comparison, not me...

And I was pointing out how I'd bet in similar circumstances, your dad was NOT like this guy.

but it sounds like I got it wrong, and you think your dad was a lot like him.

I don't think my dad was like him, but I think people are holding this guy to a standard they don't hold married guys to - which I don't understand, since the guy is engaged and about to be married.

Also I told some of that about my dad because it is probably why I am trying to give the 26yo the benefit of the doubt that he isn't just a rotten lazy jerk.  Some people have legitimate difficulties achieving job / career success, and you wouldn't know it by looking at them.  No way my dad told anyone the reasons behind his struggles.

I also wanted to point out that sometimes a smart wife (however young) can be the catalyst to better behavior and results.

(PS we did move to a rural area when I was 12, and my folks still live there.  My folks were definitely poor / working class, especially by today's standards.  My dad dropped out of school at 15 and my mom on her 16th birthday.  So you have that right.)

Edited February 14, 2019 by SKL

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t know — if I was 40-something years old, I would feel like I was being treated like a naughty child if someone told me I needed a chaperone if I wanted to go out on a date. 

Do adults really feel that other adults won’t be able to control themselves if they are alone with a date? Or is it just a tradition, so no one thinks of it that way?

The more I think about this, the more I realize how much I don’t know! 🙂

 

Many people on this board have claimed they couldn’t control themselves if left alone with someone of the opposite sex that was not their spouse.

[hippiemamato3]

Just now, Frances said:

Many people on this board have claimed they couldn’t control themselves if left alone with someone of the opposite sex that was not their spouse.

Seriously?

[unsinkable]

45 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sigh.  I feel a little bit like you guys are making fun of me or my religion.  People of the opposite sex don't spend time alone together. And as to the before puberty question....that is so strange to me....I don't leave kids alone either.  My son is an adult and can do as he wants, but he CHOOSES a level of being chaperoned that he is comfortable with.  Not every person in my faith sets the exact same limits as to being chaperoned.  But it is a protection for couples who wish to remain chaste.  Sure I know there are some of you who dated for 6 years and were alone or even slept in the same bed and stayed virgins.  It is not realistic to believe everyone could handle that.  So thus the concept of not being alone together.  That doesn't mean people who are dating don't meet up at a restaurant to have a meal alone.  And there are other times when they might be with a big group but manage to talk in private....like walking at the park or whatever.  It may seem restrictive to some of you, but it doesn't seem that way to us. 

And the above is why it is strongly discouraged to allow young teens to date since they really aren't ready to marry.  And it is our congregations issue with this couple...she is too young.  And he is too irresponsible.  But the chaperoning part is just how we live our lives.  

 

Please. You know I've had your back in dozens of threads, even when I don't agree with you. I'm not making fun of you or your religion if I joke about aspects of this story ( like the elderly couple pushing 50...nothing to do with you or your religion. But as an aside...does their house smell like cabbage?)

IMO, you're missing a step...you think I know how this all works, but I don't. So you think by asking questions, I'm making fun...but I don't know how it works. 

And since this a social thing that varies among communities so it's not like I can go to the JW website and do a search.

 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

Many people on this board have claimed they couldn’t control themselves if left alone with someone of the opposite sex that was not their spouse.

 

Ooh, that’s right! I had forgotten all about that!

I can’t remember the details any more and I know it has been mentioned in more than one thread, but I seem to recall one thread about husbands working with people of the opposite sex and going out to lunch with them alone or working late alone together in the office or something like that, and then it branched out from there to people saying they would never be alone with a member of the opposite sex because they didn’t want to risk temptation. I was shocked that people worried about themselves being tempted like that. 

I’m probably remembering it all wrong, though...

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

Please. You know I've had your back in dozens of threads, even when I don't agree with you. I'm not making fun of you or your religion if I joke about aspects of this story ( like the elderly couple pushing 50...nothing to do with you or your religion. But as an aside...does their house smell like cabbage?)

IMO, you're missing a step...you think I know how this all works, but I don't. So you think by asking questions, I'm making fun...but I don't know how it works. 

And since this a social thing that varies among communities so it's not like I can go to the JW website and do a search.

 

 

“Does their house smell like cabbage?”  🤣

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

Please. You know I've had your back in dozens of threads, even when I don't agree with you. I'm not making fun of you or your religion if I joke about aspects of this story ( like the elderly couple pushing 50...nothing to do with you or your religion. But as an aside...does their house smell like cabbage?)

IMO, you're missing a step...you think I know how this all works, but I don't. So you think by asking questions, I'm making fun...but I don't know how it works. 

And since this a social thing that varies among communities so it's not like I can go to the JW website and do a search.

 

Yes it is true you have had my back many many many times.  

And the elderly couple pushing 50 made me laugh...I would never refer to them as 'elderly couple' in real life....I just had to have a way to identify them in this thread, that was somewhat descriptive without giving their names.  I think they are 63 and 68.  

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Seriously?

 

Yes! She’s right! And in more than one thread over the years, too!

[Catwoman]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Yes it is true you have had my back many many many times.  

And the elderly couple pushing 50 made me laugh...I would never refer to them as 'elderly couple' in real life....I just had to have a way to identify them in this thread, that was somewhat descriptive without giving their names.  I think they are 63 and 68.  

 

Eek! They’re not much older than we are!

Signed,

Not Elderly

😉

[hippiemamato3]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Ooh, that’s right! I had forgotten all about that!

I can’t remember the details any more and I know it has been mentioned in more than one thread, but I seem to recall one thread about husbands working with people of the opposite sex and going out to lunch with them alone or working late alone together in the office or something like that, and then it branched out from there to people saying they would never be alone with a member of the opposite sex because they didn’t want to risk temptation. I was shocked that people worried about themselves being tempted like that. 

I’m probably remembering it all wrong, though...

 

I can't really imagine the mentality that goes along with this. 

[unsinkable]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Ooh, that’s right! I had forgotten all about that!

I can’t remember the details any more and I know it has been mentioned in more than one thread, but I seem to recall one thread about husbands working with people of the opposite sex and going out to lunch with them alone or working late alone together in the office or something like that, and then it branched out from there to people saying they would never be alone with a member of the opposite sex because they didn’t want to risk temptation. I was shocked that people worried about themselves being tempted like that. 

I’m probably remembering it all wrong, though...

 

Why, good evening Mrs, Pence....

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I can't really imagine the mentality that goes along with this. 

 

I’ll move over so you can sit by me, because I don’t understand it, either.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

Why, good evening Mrs, Pence....

 

Oh dear.

My secret is out!!!! 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

Yes! She’s right! And in more than one thread over the years, too!

Yes lots and lots of threads over the years.  I am not in the camp that feels I couldn't control myself being alone with someone of the opposite sex....but it is a line in the sand many in my faith draw....part of it is for propriety's sake....and part of it is caution, because lets face it most people who end up in affairs don't ever think they will. And affairs often start between work mates and between friends. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Eek! They’re not much older than we are!

Signed,

Not Elderly

😉

I know right.  But in the context of comparing them to the young engaged couple and her very young parents..yeah we are old.

[SKL]

17 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Ooh, that’s right! I had forgotten all about that!

I can’t remember the details any more and I know it has been mentioned in more than one thread, but I seem to recall one thread about husbands working with people of the opposite sex and going out to lunch with them alone or working late alone together in the office or something like that, and then it branched out from there to people saying they would never be alone with a member of the opposite sex because they didn’t want to risk temptation. I was shocked that people worried about themselves being tempted like that. 

I’m probably remembering it all wrong, though...

 

Though for some people it was more the risk of being accused or suspected of something that never happened.

I can see the logic of that.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Honestly the young men and women I know who hold to these relationship modes just make choices, themselves, that support them.  Like double dates or public venues like restaurants, or walks in the park, hikes, music festivals, etc, but not going into one another’s homes or bedrooms.  Just basic “prevent temptation and appearance of impropriety” choices.  I think you ladies are WAY overthinking it.

YES!

[Catwoman]

42 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Honestly the young men and women I know who hold to these relationship modes just make choices, themselves, that support them.  Like double dates or public venues like restaurants, or walks in the park, hikes, music festivals, etc, but not going into one another’s homes or bedrooms.  Just basic “prevent temptation and appearance of impropriety” choices.  I think you ladies are WAY overthinking it.

 

- signed, someone who was courted as an adult and survived with minimal weirdness.

 

I was under the impression that it was a requirement of the religion, rather than just a personal choice.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

I was under the impression that it was a requirement of the religion, rather than just a personal choice.

Remaining chaste IS a requirement.  How one attains that is a personal choice.  

[hippiemamato3]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Remaining chaste IS a requirement.  How one attains that is a personal choice.  

It is a 'requirement' for many religions, yet many people don't actually live up to that. I assume it's not different for JW. 

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

It is a 'requirement' for many religions, yet many people don't actually live up to that. I assume it's not different for JW. 

Well, as already mentioned in this thread there are people living a double life.  

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

  People of the opposite sex don't spend time alone together.

what about people of the same sex? It's not like they can't have sexual attraction ...

[katilac]

 

13 hours ago, SKL said:

Those kinds of things don't appeal to everyone, and most of them cost way more money than a person without a full-time job has to play with on a daily basis.  Even when I was that age I didn't do those things or anything like them.

 

The specific things I mentioned are examples of what we did as a semi-broke couple with young kids, the list will look different for everyone but I do think it's odd if someone/a couple doesn't have at least a short list of things they enjoy doing without the other person at all, ever. I could list 100 things and another person might be interested in none of them, but they should be able to list their own things. And it doesn't cost a penny to do some things with a friend: sit in the kitchen and talk, throw a football, window shop, walk around the park, whatever. No matter how much you love people and enjoy their company, a social circle with a total of 4 people is very constricting. 

7 hours ago, unsinkable said:

 Can post (or near) puberty opposite sex (young or not!) people spend time alone together?

Can a 16 yo girl and 16 yo boy to go the movies? Drive to church/services? Talk a walk? Just the 2 of them if they are NOT courting? Or if they have no romantic feeligs/attractions to each other? 

What about a 23 yo woman and man? Same questions. Can they be alone together?

 

Scarlett has addressed some of this but I'll add my perspective (from observation only, I'm not JW). Many of the JWs in my area are not as strict as what Scarlett describes. Many of the teens go on typical dates, no chaperones. They are expected to marry within the faith but going to a dance or such with someone out of the faith is not such a big deal. Reaching back to the stone ages when I was in high school, the level of chasteness varied among the JW kids just as it did among the Catholic or Baptist or Jewish kids. I think it's the same with most any denomination - certain rules exist, certain recommendations exist, but what that looks like and the level of adherence varies from place to place and person to person. 

 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 

The specific things I mentioned are examples of what we did as a semi-broke couple with young kids, the list will look different for everyone but I do think it's odd if someone/a couple doesn't have at least a short list of things they enjoy doing without the other person at all, ever. I could list 100 things and another person might be interested in none of them, but they should be able to list their own things. And it doesn't cost a penny to do some things with a friend: sit in the kitchen and talk, throw a football, window shop, walk around the park, whatever. No matter how much you love people and enjoy their company, a social circle with a total of 4 people is very constricting. 

 

 

I probably worded it to make it sound that way, I don't know, but at any rate it is NOT just the couple and the parents.  They do things, go places, see people.  It is difficult to describe people's lives through the computer screen, but they aren't just 4 people sitting in a room every evening.  

[itsheresomewhere]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 

The specific things I mentioned are examples of what we did as a semi-broke couple with young kids, the list will look different for everyone but I do think it's odd if someone/a couple doesn't have at least a short list of things they enjoy doing without the other person at all, ever. I could list 100 things and another person might be interested in none of them, but they should be able to list their own things. And it doesn't cost a penny to do some things with a friend: sit in the kitchen and talk, throw a football, window shop, walk around the park, whatever. No matter how much you love people and enjoy their company, a social circle with a total of 4 people is very constricting. 

 

Scarlett has addressed some of this but I'll add my perspective (from observation only, I'm not JW). Many of the JWs in my area are not as strict as what Scarlett describes. Many of the teens go on typical dates, no chaperones. They are expected to marry within the faith but going to a dance or such with someone out of the faith is not such a big deal. Reaching back to the stone ages when I was in high school, the level of chasteness varied among the JW kids just as it did among the Catholic or Baptist or Jewish kids. I think it's the same with most any denomination - certain rules exist, certain recommendations exist, but what that looks like and the level of adherence varies from place to place and person to person. 

 

This is my experience as well and was going to say the same thing.

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

Many of the JWs in my area are not as strict as what Scarlett describes. Many of the teens go on typical dates, no chaperones. They are expected to marry within the faith but going to a dance or such with someone out of the faith is not such a big deal. Reaching back to the stone ages when I was in high school, the level of chasteness varied among the JW kids just as it did among the Catholic or Baptist or Jewish kids. I think it's the same with most any denomination - certain rules exist, certain recommendations exist, but what that looks like and the level of adherence varies from place to place and person to person. 

 

It may be that these teens you knew who were not chase were children of JW who were not actually JW.  Or it could be they were living a double life.  I don't know.  Just because someone says they are JW doesn't make them JW.  

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It may be that these teens you knew who were not chase were children of JW who were not actually JW.  Or it could be they were living a double life.  I don't know.  Just because someone says they are JW doesn't make them JW.  

 

No true Scotsman, eh?

I'm not sure what you mean by "not actually JW."  This may not be correct terminology but they were officially part of the local congregation, they went to services, they knocked on doors, lol. And of course, they self-identified as JW - I can't imagine why one person would falsely claim to be part of a certain denomination, much less a whole group of people. 

I think that failing to be chaste is less leading a double life and more plain old sin (if you are a believer). Catholics sin. Baptists sin. JWs sin. There is no one who lives up to their standards and beliefs all the time, whatever they may be. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

 

No true Scotsman, eh?

I'm not sure what you mean by "not actually JW."  This may not be correct terminology but they were officially part of the local congregation, they went to services, they knocked on doors, lol. And of course, they self-identified as JW - I can't imagine why one person would falsely claim to be part of a certain denomination, much less a whole group of people. 

I think that failing to be chaste is less leading a double life and more plain old sin (if you are a believer). Catholics sin. Baptists sin. JWs sin. There is no one who lives up to their standards and beliefs all the time, whatever they may be. 

I can assure you if it were known they were having sex outside of marriage they would not have been allowed to 'knock on doors'.  So again, a double life.  Sometimes big groups of kids seem to think they can do what they want. 

And yes everyone sins, but this would be a practice of sin. 

[hippiemamato3]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I can assure you if it were known they were having sex outside of marriage they would not have been allowed to 'knock on doors'.  So again, a double life.  Sometimes big groups of kids seem to think they can do what they want. 

And yes everyone sins, but this would be a practice of sin. 

So in order to be a JW you have to be a perfect follower? Interesting. That is completely contrary to the actual bible...

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

So in order to be a JW you have to be a perfect follower? Interesting. That is completely contrary to the actual bible...

You think abstaining from premarital sex makes one perfect?

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

You think abstaining from premarital sex makes one perfect?

So this is the only thing that would make you say they are leading a double life or are their others? I think people are trying to understand what violations of JW practices and teachings lead them to be labeled as leading a double life, and what violations are just considered regular sins. Because surely no JW is always strictly adhering to every teaching and belief. Most must fall somewhat short every day.

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

So this is the only thing that would make you say they are leading a double life or are their others? I think people are trying to understand what violations of JW practices and teachings lead them to be labeled as leading a double life, and what violations are just considered regular sins. Because surely no JW is always strictly adhering to every teaching and belief. Most must fall somewhat short every day.

Sexual immorality is by far the biggest problem in this country.  But yes anything that is a persons PRACTICE Or the person is unrepentant about doing.  People make mistakes, big mistakes, big sins... it how they deal with that, the steps they take to make it right etc factors in to it.  Which is a far different situation than what people are saying here which is casual acceptance of premarital sex. 

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sexual immorality is by far the biggest problem in this country.  But yes anything that is a persons PRACTICE Or the person is unrepentant about doing.  People make mistakes, big mistakes, big sins... it how they deal with that, the steps they take to make it right etc factors in to it.  Which is a far different situation than what people are saying here which is casual acceptance of premarital sex. 

So JW teaches that sexual immorality is by far the biggest problem or that is your own personal belief? And I don’t think people are talking about casual acceptance of premarital sex. I think they are saying that many religious people have the intention of staying chaste, but statistics show that most fall short before marriage.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Frances

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

So JW teaches that sexual immorality is by far the biggest problem or that is your own personal believe? And I don’t think people are talking about casual acceptance of premarital sex. I think they are saying that many religious people have the intention of staying chaste, but statistics show that most fall short before marriage.

No I am not saying it is the most serious sin. Just that in this country it is what people seem to have the most trouble with.  And it definitely feels like people are casually accepting of it.  Like oh sure every religion is against it but hey we all sin shrug. 

[Garga]

13 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I can’t, either, but maybe it’s because the whole concept is so foreign to us. I have never known anyone who had a chaperone on their dates. 

 

I knew a woman in her 40s.  She became a Christian and her husband didn’t want her to be one.  He said, “It’s me or Jesus.”  She chose Jesus and he divorced her.  Later, she married a man who had been a drug addict.  He was clean and a really nice guy.  But then he tried to help some friends from his drug days and fell back into drugs.  He also left her because the drugs took hold of him.  He literally abandoned her and refused to come back.  He lived with his drug friends in drug houses.  It was heart breaking.

So, when she started to have feelings for a third man, she was very scared of messing it up.  The man was a person in her church and she often saw him at group events.  It was a small church where most people knew each other.  She talked to the pastor about how she was becomming attracted to the man but scared that she was rushing into something that would leave her heartbroken.  Also, she very much did not want to have premarital sex as she believed it to be a sin, but she knew how easy it was to give in to it (at least for her.). 

Unbenownst to her, the man she was interested in was also interested in her and talked to the pastor about it, much in the same way she had done.  The pastor did not tell the couple of their mutual interst for a while.  He knew they both wanted to take it very slow and be sure of themselves before they declared feelings, so he didn’t want to declare it for them and spark an emotional intimacy that might not really be good for them. They continued to see each other at group events and allow themselves room to decide how they felt about the other without pressure from anyone—even from each other. Finally, they did declare feelings and they both agreed that they would only date in a group.  They did not want to be alone.  They did not want to fall into traps of becoming emotionally intimate too soon, or physically intimate too soon.  They wanted other adults with them, watching for red flags that they might not notice in the first blushes of love.

The church did not require this.  This was something they decided to do on their own.  So, I have seen it and seen it done respectfully and done well.  And they did marry in the end.  No, they did not kiss until the wedding.  Again this was not a requirement and I don’t think anyone else in the church did that.  This was something they felt they needed to do.

10 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

It is a 'requirement' for many religions, yet many people don't actually live up to that. I assume it's not different for JW. 

 

32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

No I am not saying it is the most serious sin. Just that in this country it is what people seem to have the most trouble with.  And it definitely feels like people are casually accepting of it.  Like oh sure every religion is against it but hey we all sin shrug. 

 

I see this, too.  Exactly your last sentence, “Oh sure...every religion is against it, but hey—we all sin” shrug.  People act like it’s not a big deal but it is.  Premarital sex is a sin and all sins are the same as far as being a sin.  But some sins have lifelong consequences.  And yes, even a “small” sin like a white lie can end up having big consequences, but it’s not generally something that affects your entire life.  Premarital sex can lead to STDs and babies and those are some pretty hefty consequences if the STD is a bad one or if you can’t support the baby.  

Some religions...no...not religions, but some *churches* or *branches* have mostly given up on the premarital sex thing for the most part.  It’s not supposed to be done...but...well...you can’t stop people...   And others still take it very, very seriously and do their best to support their members in abstaining, which often means having outside accountability in the form of chaperones or group activities, etc.  For members who have personal conviction that they don’t want to have premarital sex, yet know that they will be tempted to do so, having a chaperones (friends the couple hangs out with or family members to hang out with at home) or group activities are welcomed and appreciated, even as adults.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Garga

[hippiemamato3]

10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You think abstaining from premarital sex makes one perfect?

No...I don't think premarital sex makes someone living a 'double life' either. It's between that person and God - not something I think people should judge.