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kids of antivaxxers grow up

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Oh that makes sense.  I though waning immunity affected everyone for the MMR.  I didn’t realise it was only those who had a single shot vaccine.

I read that the 2nd "booster" shot was only recommended because some of the original shots didn't work due to mishandling by the doctors' offices.  The thought is that you have a much lower likelihood of getting two dud shots than one.

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19 hours ago, klmama said:

Well, your doctor is not eloquent, but she's right.  In the last 9 years four college students in my city have died from bacterial meningitis.  They thought they just had a cold or flu, went to bed, went into comas, and died.  

Someone in my freshman dorm almost died. Fortunately her roommate recognized that something was seriously wrong in time to get her to the ER. She spent several days in the ICU very touch & go.

I'm a selective vaccinator but my teens get both the Menactra and the Bexsero shots.

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37 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

Someone in my freshman dorm almost died. Fortunately her roommate recognized that something was seriously wrong in time to get her to the ER. She spent several days in the ICU very touch & go.

I'm a selective vaccinator but my teens get both the Menactra and the Bexsero shots.

But isn’t it only viral meningitis that is vaccinated against? Without major antibiotics and watching for encephalitis very early, bacterial meningitis isn’t something you can deal with. Or have the vaccines changed since I last looked?  I admit it’s been some years...

ETA - I see they’re covering some streptococcus and such in the vaccines now, interesting!

Edited by Arctic Mama

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12 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

But isn’t it only viral meningitis that is vaccinated against? Without major antibiotics and watching for encephalitis very early, bacterial meningitis isn’t something you can deal with. Or have the vaccines changed since I last looked?  I admit it’s been some years...

ETA - I see they’re covering some streptococcus and such in the vaccines now, interesting!

That’s what I thought.  We only have vaccines for viral.  Still worth doing what you can though!

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7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Have they ever HAD the flu!? Most miserable two weeks of my life, and I was fully wiped out for the next month thereafter.

They probably have not had it.  What I have noticed with the anti-vaxxers in my homeschool group is that the parents have generally enjoyed very good health and have never met anyone that has been ill.  They do not ever consider that their very good health might be due in part to vaccines they received as children or the fact that they live in middle-class Western homes with good nutrition, sanitation, and generally good public health departments. They've never lived in places with epidemics.  Most of the illness they've experienced falls under the heading of "minor inconvenience".  Since they've never experienced or observed anything worse than a minor inconvenience, they don't understand why whooping cough or polio is a BIG DEAL and not something you can power through with some garlic or coconut oil.    

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

That’s what I thought.  We only have vaccines for viral.  Still worth doing what you can though!

There are vaccines against several bacteria that cause meningitis: Neisseria meningitidis, Streptococcus pneumoniae, and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib).  There is no vaccine specifically against viral meningitis, but some of the viruses that can cause it do have vaccines (measles, mumps, flu, chicken pox).  Generally, though, viral meningitis is not as dangerous, and most people get better on their own.  It's still important to seek medical treatment for any signs of meningitis, regardless of the type you think it is.

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6 hours ago, wilrunner said:

The cynic in me says Glaxosmithkline isn't necessarily doing this for public health. The little cough the grandmother had sounds nothing like someone who's infected with whooping cough.

 

Adults and older children who get whooping cough do not usually get the classic cough with the whooping sound. Often adults (and older children) won't even feel that sick. They just have a nagging cough that just will not go away. 

Susan in TX

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4 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

 

Adults and older children who get whooping cough do not usually get the classic cough with the whooping sound. Often adults (and older children) won't even feel that sick. They just have a nagging cough that just will not go away. 

Susan in TX

That's interesting. I didn't know that. 

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And then there is parapertussis, which looks and sounds a lot like pertussis, but isn't quite as severe (less whooping, less vomiting).  There isn't a vaccine for it, and the CDC doesn't keep track of it.  One of my dc got that, and it was not a fun time.  Dc's lungs were messed up for a couple of years after that - every time dc got a respiratory illness, there was some minor whooping again.   

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15 hours ago, SKL said:

I read that the 2nd "booster" shot was only recommended because some of the original shots didn't work due to mishandling by the doctors' offices.  The thought is that you have a much lower likelihood of getting two dud shots than one.

From what I read when I researched it a few years ago... A certain percentage receive immunity from the first shot. However, there were some (like 4 percent) that did not receive immunity after the first shot. So, they increased it to two shots to cover the percentage that did not receive immunity after the first shot.  

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/measles/expert-answers/getting-measles-after-vaccination/faq-20125397

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12 minutes ago, Iron Jenny Flint said:

From what I read when I researched it a few years ago... A certain percentage receive immunity from the first shot. However, there were some (like 4 percent) that did not receive immunity after the first shot. So, they increased it to two shots to cover the percentage that did not receive immunity after the first shot.  

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/measles/expert-answers/getting-measles-after-vaccination/faq-20125397

But why did they not receive immunity from the 1st shot?  Because the doctors did not store it properly and it spoiled.

I wish titers were easier to get - I think a lot of people are getting shots they don't need.

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On 2/11/2019 at 6:52 PM, Pen said:

 

As things exist irl, I think that is an interesting point to consider—and in any case at least in USA we cannot get The Monovalent individual vaccines.

 

However, I’d like to see safer vaccines without the stuff in them (solution and additives or whatever) causing some of the reactions. And also Monovalent vaccination options, in case multiple viral load at once Is also a problem for some people.  

 

Monovalent MMR components are actually unavailable anywhere in the world from what I most recently read. They aren't made at all, anywhere at this point in time (it's been in the last 5 years that this is the case).

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13 minutes ago, SKL said:

But why did they not receive immunity from the 1st shot?  Because the doctors did not store it properly and it spoiled.

I wish titers were easier to get - I think a lot of people are getting shots they don't need.

No, that's not how ANY of this works. The second vaccine boosts the number of people who are immune. It works this way for *any* multi-shot series. Chickenpox, MMR, etc. There is a reason why there is more than one vaccine in those series (and it isn't because physicians delivered improperly stored vaccines, that's not how the vaccine schedule works)

There is a lot of literature explaining the reasoning, but this is an easy and interesting abstract. https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/180/1/187/990623

"Despite high vaccine coverage, single-dose measles immunization programs have been unsuccessful in eliminating measles. Primary vaccine failures caused by the interference of maternal antibody have been a primary cause of continued circulation of the virus [1]. Levels of maternal antibody in the child decline with age, with a corresponding decline in the probability of primary vaccine failure. In contrast to most Canadian jurisdictions, where measles vaccine has been given routinely at 12 months of age, some other countries have long recommended measles vaccination at 15 months of age (e.g., USA) or later (e.g., Sweden) in an attempt to minimize this type of vaccine failure. However, even delay of the initial vaccination has not been sufficient to eliminate measles. Based on the results of serologic studies that showed that most children who do not respond to the first dose of measles vaccine will develop a good antibody response to a second dose [1], many countries (e.g., Canada, UK, and USA) have decided to switch to two-dose immunization schedules.

The improved protection afforded by two doses of measles vaccine is well documented in countries where two-dose schedules have been implemented for many years and where measles has been virtually eliminated [2]."

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25 minutes ago, SKL said:

But why did they not receive immunity from the 1st shot?  Because the doctors did not store it properly and it spoiled.

I wish titers were easier to get - I think a lot of people are getting shots they don't 

You can ask to have titers.

Edited by Iron Jenny Flint

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 8:11 AM, PrincessMommy said:

Mom's reaction may be because he's not just deciding to get his vaccines but he is saying things like "It's a miracle I'm still alive."  I'd be hurt if my kids went beyond the "We're just doing things differently than you did.." to publicly insinuating that I was a terrible parent.  

gently - sometimes kids grow up and make different choices.  

but as someone who, even when I was a teen, had many moments of "what the ***** was she THINKING?????" (and as a mother of adult children - I'm even more horrified by some of her choices) - some mother's deserve what they get when their children reject their lifestyle.

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On 2/11/2019 at 8:37 PM, Bluegoat said:

 

I think the difference is that most adults who don't get boosters aren't deliberatly making a decision not to be protected - they may be lazy but often they don't even think about needing them.

That's a really different issue than making a decision to not do it, and probably a lot easier to solve.

 

I work with peds/ob/ gyns on a surgical floor who openly state they see no reason for themselves to get any boosters but recommend their patients to do so.   No one has been ale to give me a reason why it is okay for them to refuse to booster but not okay for their patients.  Adults,especially the generation entering adulthood (the 90 kids) when chicken pox and other vaccines entered the market, will need to get boosters or titers checked throughout adulthood.    THere is still concern that this group will enter old age and break out in childhood diseases from lack of boosters as immunity wanes.

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On 2/11/2019 at 2:04 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t think that a delayed or selective vaxxer is an anti- vaxxer. Anti- vaxxers are against all vaccination. That’s the anti part. 

 

For some people, it isn't anti-vax per se; it's government-mandated vax.

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2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

gently - sometimes kids grow up and make different choices.  

but as someone who, even when I was a teen, had many moments of "what the ***** was she THINKING?????" (and as a mother of adult children - I'm even more horrified by some of her choices) - some mother's deserve what they get when their children reject their lifestyle.

 

princessmommy isn't saying it would hurt to have her kids make different choices, she's saying it would hurt to have her kids imply that her choices were very likely to have killed her kids (especially when this is categorically untrue).

It's not a miracle the anti-vaxxer's kid is alive.  It's just not.  If he thinks it's a miracle, he still doesn't understand vaccines or the public health situation in the US.

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3 hours ago, ELemenoP said:

Monovalent MMR components are actually unavailable anywhere in the world from what I most recently read. They aren't made at all, anywhere at this point in time (it's been in the last 5 years that this is the case).

 

Are you quite certain?

info from UK says it isn’t as part of NHS, but can be gotten at private practices 

And a google search turned up an Indian vaccine company with it listed.  Though I didn’t try to confirm that that’s up to date. 

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7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Are you quite certain?

info from UK says it isn’t as part of NHS, but can be gotten at private practices 

And a google search turned up an Indian vaccine company with it listed.  Though I didn’t try to confirm that that’s up to date. 

 

Several, perhaps.  Indiamart.com. 

 

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3 hours ago, ELemenoP said:

Monovalent MMR components are actually unavailable anywhere in the world from what I most recently read. They aren't made at all, anywhere at this point in time (it's been in the last 5 years that this is the case).

 

And perhaps in other places besides India, but it is hard for me to read medical information that is not in English.  This looks like maybe it is a Monovalent measles vaccine: 

 

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

And perhaps in other places besides India, but it is hard for me to read medical information that is not in English.  This looks like maybe it is a Monovalent measles vaccine: 

 

Manufacture of that one stopped in 2017.

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7 minutes ago, maize said:

Manufacture of that one stopped in 2017.

 

Ah.

As I was looking this up I found this which was a 2018 indication of an alternative and interesting that other mammals could also carry measles.

“In addition to humans, monkeys are the only animal species susceptible to infection with the measles virus. Marmosets, squirrel monkeys, and spider monkeys are especially vulnerable to the disease, which can cause widespread mortality in animal populations. While some vaccines approved for human patients can safely and effectively protect monkeys against measles, animals living in captivity are often not immunized because of the high cost. Researchers have sought an alternative formulation and investigated options including MVac, a cheaper freeze-dried preparation of the vaccine, which is approved by the WHO for administration to people. Encouraged by the results of preliminary testing with rhesus macaque monkeys, researchers recommend further studies to determine whether the vaccine should be adopted for widespread use in colonies of non-human primates.” 

 

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40 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

princessmommy isn't saying it would hurt to have her kids make different choices, she's saying it would hurt to have her kids imply that her choices were very likely to have killed her kids (especially when this is categorically untrue).

It's not a miracle the anti-vaxxer's kid is alive.  It's just not.  If he thinks it's a miracle, he still doesn't understand vaccines or the public health situation in the US.

and I'm saying some moms decisions do serious damage to their kids - and they get what they deserve. (regardless of what someone else thinks.)

princessmommy is more rational than many mother's out there.  it can be hard for rational mommies to understand there are mothers who can do serious damage to their kids.

I just came home from an emdr session for the cptsd caused by my mother's dereliction of duty as a parent.

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4 hours ago, Ellie said:

For some people, it isn't anti-vax per se; it's government-mandated vax.

 

Damn government wanting to protect its citizens from dangerous communicable diseases.  Polio for all! FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

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but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

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1 hour ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Damn government wanting to protect its citizens from dangerous communicable diseases.  Polio for all! FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

this came across my feed a few days ago, and I thought it quite apropos...

I appreciate the irony of your comment.  (since this is what some of these people are advocating for - whether they realize it or not.)

 

 

1950 polio ward.jpg

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13 minutes ago, moonflower said:

but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

gently - when there is one area that is this problematic with the way his mother approached parenting, the likelihood is- there are multiple areas which are this problematic in how his mother approached parenthood. things dont' tend to exist in a vacuum. it is not anyone's place to infer her now adult son is being hyperbolic about his statements about his mother's parenting style.  He lived it - he has the right to judge it, and he knows minute details not shared.

some antivaxxers won't allow medication for anything  - not infections that require an antibiotic (many of those "minor" infections, are minor because of being treated with antibiotics.).   just because he hasn't stated them overtly, doesn't mean they aren't there.  He may not even be fully aware of all the ins-and outs of her parenting choices yet. 

 

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I am pro-vaccine. I am extremely frustrated with anti-vaxx pediatricians who spread disinformation and generate fear among parents...these docs, who are simply not very smart because they mis-read and mis-quote medical studies, are the true source of the problem. However I'm also frustrated with the no-vaxx-ever-for-my-kid parents (not the parents who selectively make specific delays or decisions for particular kids) for believing the conspiracy theories, etc, and shattering the herd immunity that we all need.

My own anecdote:

We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down.  One of my kids in particular struggled so hard to catch her breath with each coughing fit I actually thought she might die. It was terrifying. I understand that my kids' pertussis was likely a reduced version of what they would have experienced if they didn't have the vaccine. 

We went to our new homeschool group not knowing they had pertussis (doc thought it was allergic reaction causing bronchial spasming and told me they were safe to go to school). When I insisted on pertussis testing and got a positive result, I was told the health department would call me and the school. After 6 hours, they hadn't called so I wrote to the school director. This pretty much set off a panic in our homeschool community (and I was the villain for bringing pertussis to the community) because there are many anti-vaxxers, and of course many families with babies. Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community. The health department was totally casual about it and said I didn't have to do anything or notify anyone and they probably wouldn't get around to telling the school for quite some time. They said some schools send a note home but many don't and they aren't required to notify parents that their kid may have been exposed to pertussis. I am baffled by this.

When I had to switch docs due to insurance reasons, I went to a high profile pediatrician who described himself online and in writing as pro-vaccine. I told him the above story and said I wanted the TDAP for my now-due 11 year olds. He had zero reaction to the story.. After the exam, he started to leave. I reminded him they were due for TDAP. He said they follow an alternate vaccine schedule and would give it if I wanted it. (WHAT! He ignored my story and earlier specific request for the vaccine. Huh?) Later I learned he appeared in a recent anti-vaxx film. I wrote to him explaining why I was firing him. I've heard nothing back. No surprise. 

 

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Quote

 

We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down. 

 

 

We had outbreak of pertussis amongst vaccinated children where we are.  The pertussis vaccination has particular problems.   Our county apparently has a 95% vaccination rate, and most kids at local schools are vaccinated .  In our area there were communications fairly quickly— non vaccinated kids stayed home, but there were nonetheless cases spreading amongst the fully vaccinated. 

I don’t recall it having started with a non-vaccinated child.  

 

Contact tracing is very helpful for communicable disease, but pertussis is probably not included in that as you saw.

 

Your twins could have been in our 95% vaccination area, and still gotten sick.  

 

“Whooping Cough Vaccine's Protection Fades Quickly : Shots - Health News Effectiveness of the vaccine within one year of the final booster was 73 percent. But it fell to 34 percent in two to four years, an analysis of a Washington state epidemic found.May 5, 2015”

 

 

With ~34% effectiveness after a couple of years , you would probably need to vaccinate yearly for pertussis if you want your children to be protected.  This isn’t the fault of people not vaccinating.

Edited by Pen
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4 hours ago, moonflower said:

but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

 

Her willful ignorance only lacks a significant risk because she is raising her children in a modern nation where the vast majority still vaccinate. Her child has a right to judge her.

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1 hour ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Her willful ignorance only lacks a significant risk because she is raising her children in a modern nation where the vast majority still vaccinate. Her child has a right to judge her.

 

You can't separate the action from its context.  She knows, I presume, that the vast majority of people in the US vaccinate, and that this provides her child with protection.  If measles and polio were still common diseases in her environment, probably she'd vaccinate, and if she didn't her kid would have a right to say that it is a miracle he is alive (or at least it would be closer to the truth to say it - it's not like any child surviving these diseases before vaccines was miraculous anyway, as most people survived them).

What would be a miracle: if there were an easily available ebola vaccine, and they lived in the DRC, and she didn't get the vaccine for her kids, and the ebola epidemic there got to where it infected like 95% of the population, and he survived childhood anyway.

That would be a miracle.

This is not a miracle.

Sure, he can judge her -all kids judge their parents as they grow up.  But he is wrong to say it's a miracle that he survived, because it's not.  He doesn't understand vaccines in the US any better than she does, evidently.

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17 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

You can't separate the action from its context.  She knows, I presume, that the vast majority of people in the US vaccinate, and that this provides her child with protection.  If measles and polio were still common diseases in her environment, probably she'd vaccinate, and if she didn't her kid would have a right to say that it is a miracle he is alive (or at least it would be closer to the truth to say it - it's not like any child surviving these diseases before vaccines was miraculous anyway, as most people survived them).

What would be a miracle: if there were an easily available ebola vaccine, and they lived in the DRC, and she didn't get the vaccine for her kids, and the ebola epidemic there got to where it infected like 95% of the population, and he survived childhood anyway.

That would be a miracle.

This is not a miracle.

Sure, he can judge her -all kids judge their parents as they grow up.  But he is wrong to say it's a miracle that he survived, because it's not.  He doesn't understand vaccines in the US any better than she does, evidently.

He has enough sense to get vaccinated so his understanding is leaps and bounds beyond hers.

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He is factually incorrect to say that it's a miracle he survived (unless there's a lot more context here that we're missing out on, which is possible). He is not incorrect to say that she was wrong to not vaccinate, he's just exaggerating.

However, she is making a much graver error in judgment by allowing the world to see how martyred she feels that her child has grown up and now is making different decisions than she did. Hyperbole is normal for people his age. It's somewhat less normal for people her age, and it really undermines whatever moral authority she has left.

Edited by Tanaqui
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16 hours ago, DeniseF said:

Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community.

 

I think part of what may have happened is that you yourself had a very incorrect and mis-informed (perhaps wishful thinking) view of the effectiveness of Pertussis vaccination (which you should now realize may also apply to other vaccines, as they too may be less effective than you thought them, and in some cases viruses can mutate, and in other cases people can be infectious post vaccination).  Now you are just beginning to learn more. 

In regard to your state rules , you might want to look up the California health department rules .  With regard to your homeschool group maybe you want to get involved with protocols and rules for sickness and notifications that will be helpful in that group.  

 

I’d like to add that, if in fact the vaccination effectiveness is only 73% within a year of the final booster, then even yearly vaccination may not protect your kids, not  even in a 100% vaccination area.

 I strongly suggest that you should start learning about and teaching your children “old fashioned” hygiene precautions.  

In general things like: Washing hands.  Not touching eyes, mouth etc.  Staying home when sick.

And particularly important for Pertussis, but also important for other illnesses:  Staying away from people when you are coughing.  Staying away from other people if they are coughing.  

Wear mask if necessary to be amongst others who are coughing or if you are coughing... can be a good idea too.  

Pertussis iirc is generally caught from direct exposure to droplets from someone infected with it coughing.  

It can help to understand that being vaccinated is often not protection against it.  Mistakenly thinking it is, may lead the vaccinated population to not take the “old fashioned “ precautions and thus to contribute to spreading the illness.  

I suspect that at my son’s school and others in our county, this is part of why the illness was spreading amongst the vaccinated kids—they tended not to avoid coughing on others nor to withdraw from people coughing due to a mistaken belief that their vaccinations gave them immunity both ways.  

 

15 hours ago, Pen said:
“Whooping Cough Vaccine's Protection Fades Quickly : Shots - Health News Effectiveness of the vaccine within one year of the final booster was 73 percent. But it fell to 34 percent in two to four years, an analysis of a Washington state epidemic found.May 5, 2015”

 

 

With ~34% effectiveness after a couple of years , you would probably need to vaccinate yearly for pertussis if you want your children to be protected.  This isn’t the fault of people not vaccinating.

 

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 2:28 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

Oh that makes sense.  I though waning immunity affected everyone for the MMR.  I didn’t realise it was only those who had a single shot vaccine.

 

In our area a third dose of MMR is now being recommended due to waning immunity in the mumps component.

 This can be particularly a problem due to protecting people until they are older and then the immunity waning at a time when mumps cases tend to be more severe. 

Iirc, people have been getting mumps after 2 doses of MMR and even with titers indicating that they should be immune.  

 

To the best of my knowledge it was originally thought that a single shot of MMR would be enough for all 3, then discovered that at least a second was needed to protect against the measles, currently (and at least locallyto me) being found that at least a third is needed for protection from the mumps.  

 

(I tend to think of it as the viruses and bacteria doing what they need to do to try to survive)

Edited by Pen

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15 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think part of what may have happened is that you yourself had a very incorrect and mis-informed (perhaps wishful thinking) view of the effectiveness of Pertussis vaccination (which you should now realize may also apply to other vaccines, as they too may be less effective than you thought them, and in some cases viruses can mutate, and in other cases people can be infectious post vaccination).  Now you are just beginning to learn more. 

In regard to your state rules , you might want to look up the California health department rules .  With regard to your homeschool group maybe you want to get involved with protocols and rules for sickness and notifications that will be helpful in that group.  

 

I’d like to add that, if in fact the vaccination effectiveness is only 73% within a year of the final booster, then even yearly vaccination may not protect your kids, not  even in a 100% vaccination area.

 I strongly suggest that you should start learning about and teaching your children “old fashioned” hygiene precautions.  

In general things like: Washing hands.  Not touching eyes, mouth etc.  Staying home when sick.

And particularly important for Pertussis, but also important for other illnesses:  Staying away from people when you are coughing.  Staying away from other people if they are coughing.  

Wear mask if necessary to be amongst others who are coughing or if you are coughing... can be a good idea too.  

Pertussis iirc is generally caught from direct exposure to droplets from someone infected with it coughing.  

It can help to understand that being vaccinated is often not protection against it.  Mistakenly thinking it is, may lead the vaccinated population to not take the “old fashioned “ precautions and thus to contribute to spreading the illness.  

I suspect that at my son’s school and others in our county, this is part of why the illness was spreading amongst the vaccinated kids—they tended not to avoid coughing on others nor to withdraw from people coughing due to a mistaken belief that their vaccinations gave them immunity both ways.  

 

 

 

This was extremely condescending. 

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I believe Japan still gives only measles and rubella vaccinations as part of their recommended sequence.  Mumps is not.  I had at least one kid that needed to get an extra shot because of their immunization locations in childhood.

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17 hours ago, DeniseF said:

I am pro-vaccine. I am extremely frustrated with anti-vaxx pediatricians who spread disinformation and generate fear among parents...these docs, who are simply not very smart because they mis-read and mis-quote medical studies, are the true source of the problem. However I'm also frustrated with the no-vaxx-ever-for-my-kid parents (not the parents who selectively make specific delays or decisions for particular kids) for believing the conspiracy theories, etc, and shattering the herd immunity that we all need.

My own anecdote:

We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down.  One of my kids in particular struggled so hard to catch her breath with each coughing fit I actually thought she might die. It was terrifying. I understand that my kids' pertussis was likely a reduced version of what they would have experienced if they didn't have the vaccine. 

We went to our new homeschool group not knowing they had pertussis (doc thought it was allergic reaction causing bronchial spasming and told me they were safe to go to school). When I insisted on pertussis testing and got a positive result, I was told the health department would call me and the school. After 6 hours, they hadn't called so I wrote to the school director. This pretty much set off a panic in our homeschool community (and I was the villain for bringing pertussis to the community) because there are many anti-vaxxers, and of course many families with babies. Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community. The health department was totally casual about it and said I didn't have to do anything or notify anyone and they probably wouldn't get around to telling the school for quite some time. They said some schools send a note home but many don't and they aren't required to notify parents that their kid may have been exposed to pertussis. I am baffled by this.

When I had to switch docs due to insurance reasons, I went to a high profile pediatrician who described himself online and in writing as pro-vaccine. I told him the above story and said I wanted the TDAP for my now-due 11 year olds. He had zero reaction to the story.. After the exam, he started to leave. I reminded him they were due for TDAP. He said they follow an alternate vaccine schedule and would give it if I wanted it. (WHAT! He ignored my story and earlier specific request for the vaccine. Huh?) Later I learned he appeared in a recent anti-vaxx film. I wrote to him explaining why I was firing him. I've heard nothing back. No surprise. 

 

 

@Jean in Newcastle n

  I was replying to something I viewed as extremely condescending. ETA:   I didn’t mean what I Wrote to sound condescending, but my irritation with the post probably came out. And apologize to @DeniseF for that.

I know pediatric physicians who question the current vaccination protocols and are extremely intelligent.  

 

I do think it extremely important for parents to teach teach their children the “old fashioned “ ways of protecting against spreading illness.  

And,  anecdotally, I have known parents who when something is said about kids appearing to be sick, coughing, etc, say “oh, it’s okay, we vaccinate.” Like if someone is vaccinated she can neither catch nor spread anything.  

I think someone like DeniseF who has had such an experience is in a good position to work with a homeschooling group to achieve better procedures.  I don’t think that trying to change health department rules is likely to be effective, but a homeschooling group can probably be worked with.  

—— 

Edited by Pen
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2 hours ago, Pen said:

I do think it extremely important for parents to teach teach their children the “old fashioned “ ways of protecting against spreading illness.  

And,  anecdotally, I have known parents who when something is said about kids appearing to be sick, coughing, etc, say “oh, it’s okay, we vaccinate.” Like if someone is vaccinated she can neither catch nor spread anything.  

Sometimes people just don't think things through.  My dc's best friend's mother (who had her dc get all of the vaccines) would bring her sick dc to group events, having given them Tylenol to lower their fevers so they'd feel well enough to attend.  Or she'd invite my dc over to play when some of her kids had fevers or a really bad cold.  After learning my lesson with that (because every time my dc got sick, too), I started asking if any of the kids were sick; we'd reschedule, if they were.  One time when she told me no, she neglected to mention that SHE was sick with a fever, runny nose, and cough.  It became obvious when I came to pick up my dc, AFTER dc had spent hours there and had eaten a sandwich for lunch, which the sick mom had prepared.  Yep.  Dc got sick again, and so did all the rest of us.  :dry:  We stopped hanging out after that one.  She's a lovely lady and will help anyone in need, but she just doesn't get the germ thing.  Just because "it's only a cold" doesn't mean we want it.

 

 

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On 2/13/2019 at 7:24 AM, SKL said:

But why did they not receive immunity from the 1st shot?  Because the doctors did not store it properly and it spoiled.

I wish titers were easier to get - I think a lot of people are getting shots they don't need.

 

I had a full two shot series for MMR and found out two years ago that I'm actually only immune to two of them. I was working at a hospital so had to get the series again, and they called it good. (Maybe I should get titers to see if they actually "took" this time.) 

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1 hour ago, klmama said:

Sometimes people just don't think things through.  My dc's best friend's mother (who had her dc get all of the vaccines) would bring her sick dc to group events, having given them Tylenol to lower their fevers so they'd feel well enough to attend.  Or she'd invite my dc over to play when some of her kids had fevers or a really bad cold.  After learning my lesson with that (because every time my dc got sick, too), I started asking if any of the kids were sick; we'd reschedule, if they were.  One time when she told me no, she neglected to mention that SHE was sick with a fever, runny nose, and cough.  It became obvious when I came to pick up my dc, AFTER dc had spent hours there and had eaten a sandwich for lunch, which the sick mom had prepared.  Yep.  Dc got sick again, and so did all the rest of us.  :dry:  We stopped hanging out after that one.  She's a lovely lady and will help anyone in need, but she just doesn't get the germ thing.  Just because "it's only a cold" doesn't mean we want it.

 

 

Back when I was super immunocompromised and doing the whole mask thing during the winter, I had people (including adults) show up at my house while sick.  Somehow they thought that since I was masked it was ok for them to still shed germs/viruses over my house.  It was terribly rude of me but I wouldn't let them even into my house.  (They are still friends so I got over my annoyance at them and they got over it towards me too.) 

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On 2/13/2019 at 3:23 PM, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Damn government wanting to protect its citizens from dangerous communicable diseases.  Polio for all! FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, those pesky parents who can't figure out on their own that the immunizations protect their children but have to have a government nanny make the decisions for them.

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41 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Yeah, those pesky parents who can't figure out on their own that the immunizations protect their children but have to have a government nanny make the decisions for them.

I don't think you completely get how immunity works.

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1 hour ago, DeniseF said:

Fading vaccine immunity is the reason we need herd immunity...for everyone's protection.

 

April 26, 2016

Long-Lasting Immunity After Vaccination for Tetanus and Diphtheria

Neil M. Ampel, MD reviewing Hammarlund E et al. Clin Infect Dis 2016 May 1

Models predict that antibody levels will remain well above protective levels for many decades.

Immunization against tetanus and diphtheria is so effective that concern about vaccine-related adverse events associated with booster vaccinations has assumed greater importance. Currently, repeat immunization in the U.S. is recommended every 10 years for those aged >6 years, but longitudinal studies have suggested that antibody titers last far longer than this interval. In a cross-sectional study, researchers in Oregon analyzed tetanus and diphtheria toxin-specific antibody levels among 546 adults recruited from 2002 to 2008.

In 97% of the study population, both tetanus-specific and diphtheria-specific antibody concentrations were above the protective level of 0.01 IU/mL. A regression model estimated that, without further booster vaccination, 95% of the population would remain protected against tetanus for up to 72 years and against diphtheria for up to 42 years. While subjects aged 50 or older had lower antibody titers to both tetanus and diphtheria than younger subjects, antibody half-lives were the same in the older and younger groups.”  Journal Watch

———

The above study was in adults not children unfortunately.  However, it seems that trivalent vaccinations are sometimes grouping vaccinations that provide lengthy immunity with ones that wane quickly. 

I am wondering, when you fired your children’s doctor and pushed for your twins to have a booster at age 11, a year after an actual pertussis illness (which might be expected to give some 4 years immunity, maybe more?) and presumably 4 - 6 years after their last Tetanus-pertussis-diphtheria type booster, which illness did you think the booster at that time would help to provide immunity for?  

 

If your kids have no troubles with vaccinations it probably did no harm, but also may have been no help beyond the long lasting immunity from  T and D parts of vaccine, plus natural immunity from having had pertussis illness itself.  Then in  5 years or so when the natural pertussis illness immunity may be fading,  so very likely will the quick waning protection for P part of the vaccination have faded.  And may have done the minor harm of your thinking them and them thinking themselves protected at a time when once again, perhaps, they aren’t.

 

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51 minutes ago, DeniseF said:

Fading vaccine immunity is the reason we need herd immunity...for everyone's protection.

You're simplifying the situation though. 

Vaccines have definitely reduced the incidence of VPDs and the complications associated with them, but it's also not perfect.

Before vaccination, when most people got these childhood diseases, breastfeeding infants were protected through their mothers. Most people got the diseases as children, when complications were least severe. So your adults and elderly (who are more at risk of  complications) were protected from getting the diseases again by the lifelong immunity they acquired as children. These really were primarily childhood diseases. 

Much was assumed about the long-term effectiveness of vaccines and because of waning immunity, boosters have been added to the schedule. Some vaccines don't last very long at all. The mumps portion of the MMR isn't very effective, which is why we still see outbreaks in highly-vaccinated populations. The pertussis vaccine has been shown to lose effectiveness much more quickly than previously thought, which is the reason we have seen a huge push for boosters for adults in recent years.  Etc. Etc. We really haven't had widespread vaccination campaigns for very long. My parents were likely to have gotten these childhood diseases naturally and had lifelong immunity, but I never did. And without regular titer checks, I have no way of knowing if I am still immune or if I was ever immune. (A small portion of people won't ever develop immunity via vaccination.) This whole "herd immunity" through vaccination is still an experiment. But what we're finding is that thanks to vaccination, those most vulnerable to VPDs are now infants who are not getting passive immunity through their breastfeeding mothers but still too young to be vaccinated and adults whose immunity has waned.

I'm not saying that I want to go back to the day when everyone got measles either. But vaccination is also not a perfect science. There is still a lot we are learning about vaccines and their effectiveness and how they effect our immune systems.  It's easy to blame these outbreaks on a very small number of anti-vaxxers, but the reality is there are a lot of us adults who are unknowingly completely unprotected. I can see if I can find the link, but I read recently that Washington has very high vaccination rates-- high enough that we should have "herd immunity" among school aged kids. So if these outbreaks aren't being caused by unvaccinated kids, why are we seeing them?

 

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55 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

April 26, 2016

Long-Lasting Immunity After Vaccination for Tetanus and Diphtheria

Neil M. Ampel, MD reviewing Hammarlund E et al. Clin Infect Dis 2016 May 1

Models predict that antibody levels will remain well above protective levels for many decades.

Immunization against tetanus and diphtheria is so effective that concern about vaccine-related adverse events associated with booster vaccinations has assumed greater importance. Currently, repeat immunization in the U.S. is recommended every 10 years for those aged >6 years, but longitudinal studies have suggested that antibody titers last far longer than this interval. In a cross-sectional study, researchers in Oregon analyzed tetanus and diphtheria toxin-specific antibody levels among 546 adults recruited from 2002 to 2008.

In 97% of the study population, both tetanus-specific and diphtheria-specific antibody concentrations were above the protective level of 0.01 IU/mL. A regression model estimated that, without further booster vaccination, 95% of the population would remain protected against tetanus for up to 72 years and against diphtheria for up to 42 years. While subjects aged 50 or older had lower antibody titers to both tetanus and diphtheria than younger subjects, antibody half-lives were the same in the older and younger groups.”  Journal Watch

———

The above study was in adults not children unfortunately.  However, it seems that trivalent vaccinations are sometimes grouping vaccinations that provide lengthy immunity with ones that wane quickly. 

I am wondering, when you fired your children’s doctor and pushed for your twins to have a booster at age 11, a year after an actual pertussis illness (which might be expected to give some 4 years immunity, maybe more?) and presumably 4 - 6 years after their last Tetanus-pertussis-diphtheria type booster, which illness did you think the booster at that time would help to provide immunity for?  

 

If your kids have no troubles with vaccinations it probably did no harm, but also may have been no help beyond the long lasting immunity from  T and D parts of vaccine, plus natural immunity from having had pertussis illness itself.  Then in  5 years or so when the natural pertussis illness immunity may be fading,  so very likely will the quick waning protection for P part of the vaccination have faded.  And may have done the minor harm of your thinking them and them thinking themselves protected at a time when once again, perhaps, they aren’t.

 

 

This study says "on average, whooping cough immunity lasts at least 30 years and perhaps as long as 70 years after natural infection". It s my understanding that if you get whooping cough you will have life-long immunity. 

Susan in TX

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