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kids of antivaxxers grow up


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On 2/11/2019 at 2:04 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t think that a delayed or selective vaxxer is an anti- vaxxer. Anti- vaxxers are against all vaccination. That’s the anti part. 

 

For some people, it isn't anti-vax per se; it's government-mandated vax.

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2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

gently - sometimes kids grow up and make different choices.  

but as someone who, even when I was a teen, had many moments of "what the ***** was she THINKING?????" (and as a mother of adult children - I'm even more horrified by some of her choices) - some mother's deserve what they get when their children reject their lifestyle.

 

princessmommy isn't saying it would hurt to have her kids make different choices, she's saying it would hurt to have her kids imply that her choices were very likely to have killed her kids (especially when this is categorically untrue).

It's not a miracle the anti-vaxxer's kid is alive.  It's just not.  If he thinks it's a miracle, he still doesn't understand vaccines or the public health situation in the US.

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3 hours ago, ELemenoP said:

Monovalent MMR components are actually unavailable anywhere in the world from what I most recently read. They aren't made at all, anywhere at this point in time (it's been in the last 5 years that this is the case).

 

Are you quite certain?

info from UK says it isn’t as part of NHS, but can be gotten at private practices 

And a google search turned up an Indian vaccine company with it listed.  Though I didn’t try to confirm that that’s up to date. 

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7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Are you quite certain?

info from UK says it isn’t as part of NHS, but can be gotten at private practices 

And a google search turned up an Indian vaccine company with it listed.  Though I didn’t try to confirm that that’s up to date. 

 

Several, perhaps.  Indiamart.com. 

 

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3 hours ago, ELemenoP said:

Monovalent MMR components are actually unavailable anywhere in the world from what I most recently read. They aren't made at all, anywhere at this point in time (it's been in the last 5 years that this is the case).

 

And perhaps in other places besides India, but it is hard for me to read medical information that is not in English.  This looks like maybe it is a Monovalent measles vaccine: 

 
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7 minutes ago, maize said:

Manufacture of that one stopped in 2017.

 

Ah.

As I was looking this up I found this which was a 2018 indication of an alternative and interesting that other mammals could also carry measles.

“In addition to humans, monkeys are the only animal species susceptible to infection with the measles virus. Marmosets, squirrel monkeys, and spider monkeys are especially vulnerable to the disease, which can cause widespread mortality in animal populations. While some vaccines approved for human patients can safely and effectively protect monkeys against measles, animals living in captivity are often not immunized because of the high cost. Researchers have sought an alternative formulation and investigated options including MVac, a cheaper freeze-dried preparation of the vaccine, which is approved by the WHO for administration to people. Encouraged by the results of preliminary testing with rhesus macaque monkeys, researchers recommend further studies to determine whether the vaccine should be adopted for widespread use in colonies of non-human primates.” 

 

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40 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

princessmommy isn't saying it would hurt to have her kids make different choices, she's saying it would hurt to have her kids imply that her choices were very likely to have killed her kids (especially when this is categorically untrue).

It's not a miracle the anti-vaxxer's kid is alive.  It's just not.  If he thinks it's a miracle, he still doesn't understand vaccines or the public health situation in the US.

and I'm saying some moms decisions do serious damage to their kids - and they get what they deserve. (regardless of what someone else thinks.)

princessmommy is more rational than many mother's out there.  it can be hard for rational mommies to understand there are mothers who can do serious damage to their kids.

I just came home from an emdr session for the cptsd caused by my mother's dereliction of duty as a parent.

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but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

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1 hour ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Damn government wanting to protect its citizens from dangerous communicable diseases.  Polio for all! FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

this came across my feed a few days ago, and I thought it quite apropos...

I appreciate the irony of your comment.  (since this is what some of these people are advocating for - whether they realize it or not.)

 

 

1950 polio ward.jpg

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13 minutes ago, moonflower said:

but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

gently - when there is one area that is this problematic with the way his mother approached parenting, the likelihood is- there are multiple areas which are this problematic in how his mother approached parenthood. things dont' tend to exist in a vacuum. it is not anyone's place to infer her now adult son is being hyperbolic about his statements about his mother's parenting style.  He lived it - he has the right to judge it, and he knows minute details not shared.

some antivaxxers won't allow medication for anything  - not infections that require an antibiotic (many of those "minor" infections, are minor because of being treated with antibiotics.).   just because he hasn't stated them overtly, doesn't mean they aren't there.  He may not even be fully aware of all the ins-and outs of her parenting choices yet. 

 

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I am pro-vaccine. I am extremely frustrated with anti-vaxx pediatricians who spread disinformation and generate fear among parents...these docs, who are simply not very smart because they mis-read and mis-quote medical studies, are the true source of the problem. However I'm also frustrated with the no-vaxx-ever-for-my-kid parents (not the parents who selectively make specific delays or decisions for particular kids) for believing the conspiracy theories, etc, and shattering the herd immunity that we all need.

My own anecdote:

We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down.  One of my kids in particular struggled so hard to catch her breath with each coughing fit I actually thought she might die. It was terrifying. I understand that my kids' pertussis was likely a reduced version of what they would have experienced if they didn't have the vaccine. 

We went to our new homeschool group not knowing they had pertussis (doc thought it was allergic reaction causing bronchial spasming and told me they were safe to go to school). When I insisted on pertussis testing and got a positive result, I was told the health department would call me and the school. After 6 hours, they hadn't called so I wrote to the school director. This pretty much set off a panic in our homeschool community (and I was the villain for bringing pertussis to the community) because there are many anti-vaxxers, and of course many families with babies. Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community. The health department was totally casual about it and said I didn't have to do anything or notify anyone and they probably wouldn't get around to telling the school for quite some time. They said some schools send a note home but many don't and they aren't required to notify parents that their kid may have been exposed to pertussis. I am baffled by this.

When I had to switch docs due to insurance reasons, I went to a high profile pediatrician who described himself online and in writing as pro-vaccine. I told him the above story and said I wanted the TDAP for my now-due 11 year olds. He had zero reaction to the story.. After the exam, he started to leave. I reminded him they were due for TDAP. He said they follow an alternate vaccine schedule and would give it if I wanted it. (WHAT! He ignored my story and earlier specific request for the vaccine. Huh?) Later I learned he appeared in a recent anti-vaxx film. I wrote to him explaining why I was firing him. I've heard nothing back. No surprise. 

 

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We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down. 

 

 

We had outbreak of pertussis amongst vaccinated children where we are.  The pertussis vaccination has particular problems.   Our county apparently has a 95% vaccination rate, and most kids at local schools are vaccinated .  In our area there were communications fairly quickly— non vaccinated kids stayed home, but there were nonetheless cases spreading amongst the fully vaccinated. 

I don’t recall it having started with a non-vaccinated child.  

 

Contact tracing is very helpful for communicable disease, but pertussis is probably not included in that as you saw.

 

Your twins could have been in our 95% vaccination area, and still gotten sick.  

 

“Whooping Cough Vaccine's Protection Fades Quickly : Shots - Health News Effectiveness of the vaccine within one year of the final booster was 73 percent. But it fell to 34 percent in two to four years, an analysis of a Washington state epidemic found.May 5, 2015”

 

 

With ~34% effectiveness after a couple of years , you would probably need to vaccinate yearly for pertussis if you want your children to be protected.  This isn’t the fault of people not vaccinating.

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4 hours ago, moonflower said:

but in this case, not giving your kids vaccines doesn't equate to making it a miracle that they lived through childhood.  If you are an abusive or truly neglectful parent, sure, don't be surprised when your kids grow up traumatized and say things like my mom practically left me for dead.  If you're just making a different choice that does not put your kid at particularly significant risk of trauma or death or misery, it's an overreaction and would hurt.

 

Her willful ignorance only lacks a significant risk because she is raising her children in a modern nation where the vast majority still vaccinate. Her child has a right to judge her.

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1 hour ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Her willful ignorance only lacks a significant risk because she is raising her children in a modern nation where the vast majority still vaccinate. Her child has a right to judge her.

 

You can't separate the action from its context.  She knows, I presume, that the vast majority of people in the US vaccinate, and that this provides her child with protection.  If measles and polio were still common diseases in her environment, probably she'd vaccinate, and if she didn't her kid would have a right to say that it is a miracle he is alive (or at least it would be closer to the truth to say it - it's not like any child surviving these diseases before vaccines was miraculous anyway, as most people survived them).

What would be a miracle: if there were an easily available ebola vaccine, and they lived in the DRC, and she didn't get the vaccine for her kids, and the ebola epidemic there got to where it infected like 95% of the population, and he survived childhood anyway.

That would be a miracle.

This is not a miracle.

Sure, he can judge her -all kids judge their parents as they grow up.  But he is wrong to say it's a miracle that he survived, because it's not.  He doesn't understand vaccines in the US any better than she does, evidently.

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17 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

You can't separate the action from its context.  She knows, I presume, that the vast majority of people in the US vaccinate, and that this provides her child with protection.  If measles and polio were still common diseases in her environment, probably she'd vaccinate, and if she didn't her kid would have a right to say that it is a miracle he is alive (or at least it would be closer to the truth to say it - it's not like any child surviving these diseases before vaccines was miraculous anyway, as most people survived them).

What would be a miracle: if there were an easily available ebola vaccine, and they lived in the DRC, and she didn't get the vaccine for her kids, and the ebola epidemic there got to where it infected like 95% of the population, and he survived childhood anyway.

That would be a miracle.

This is not a miracle.

Sure, he can judge her -all kids judge their parents as they grow up.  But he is wrong to say it's a miracle that he survived, because it's not.  He doesn't understand vaccines in the US any better than she does, evidently.

He has enough sense to get vaccinated so his understanding is leaps and bounds beyond hers.

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He is factually incorrect to say that it's a miracle he survived (unless there's a lot more context here that we're missing out on, which is possible). He is not incorrect to say that she was wrong to not vaccinate, he's just exaggerating.

However, she is making a much graver error in judgment by allowing the world to see how martyred she feels that her child has grown up and now is making different decisions than she did. Hyperbole is normal for people his age. It's somewhat less normal for people her age, and it really undermines whatever moral authority she has left.

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16 hours ago, DeniseF said:

Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community.

 

I think part of what may have happened is that you yourself had a very incorrect and mis-informed (perhaps wishful thinking) view of the effectiveness of Pertussis vaccination (which you should now realize may also apply to other vaccines, as they too may be less effective than you thought them, and in some cases viruses can mutate, and in other cases people can be infectious post vaccination).  Now you are just beginning to learn more. 

In regard to your state rules , you might want to look up the California health department rules .  With regard to your homeschool group maybe you want to get involved with protocols and rules for sickness and notifications that will be helpful in that group.  

 

I’d like to add that, if in fact the vaccination effectiveness is only 73% within a year of the final booster, then even yearly vaccination may not protect your kids, not  even in a 100% vaccination area.

 I strongly suggest that you should start learning about and teaching your children “old fashioned” hygiene precautions.  

In general things like: Washing hands.  Not touching eyes, mouth etc.  Staying home when sick.

And particularly important for Pertussis, but also important for other illnesses:  Staying away from people when you are coughing.  Staying away from other people if they are coughing.  

Wear mask if necessary to be amongst others who are coughing or if you are coughing... can be a good idea too.  

Pertussis iirc is generally caught from direct exposure to droplets from someone infected with it coughing.  

It can help to understand that being vaccinated is often not protection against it.  Mistakenly thinking it is, may lead the vaccinated population to not take the “old fashioned “ precautions and thus to contribute to spreading the illness.  

I suspect that at my son’s school and others in our county, this is part of why the illness was spreading amongst the vaccinated kids—they tended not to avoid coughing on others nor to withdraw from people coughing due to a mistaken belief that their vaccinations gave them immunity both ways.  

 

15 hours ago, Pen said:
“Whooping Cough Vaccine's Protection Fades Quickly : Shots - Health News Effectiveness of the vaccine within one year of the final booster was 73 percent. But it fell to 34 percent in two to four years, an analysis of a Washington state epidemic found.May 5, 2015”

 

 

With ~34% effectiveness after a couple of years , you would probably need to vaccinate yearly for pertussis if you want your children to be protected.  This isn’t the fault of people not vaccinating.

 

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 2:28 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

Oh that makes sense.  I though waning immunity affected everyone for the MMR.  I didn’t realise it was only those who had a single shot vaccine.

 

In our area a third dose of MMR is now being recommended due to waning immunity in the mumps component.

 This can be particularly a problem due to protecting people until they are older and then the immunity waning at a time when mumps cases tend to be more severe. 

Iirc, people have been getting mumps after 2 doses of MMR and even with titers indicating that they should be immune.  

 

To the best of my knowledge it was originally thought that a single shot of MMR would be enough for all 3, then discovered that at least a second was needed to protect against the measles, currently (and at least locallyto me) being found that at least a third is needed for protection from the mumps.  

 

(I tend to think of it as the viruses and bacteria doing what they need to do to try to survive)

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15 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think part of what may have happened is that you yourself had a very incorrect and mis-informed (perhaps wishful thinking) view of the effectiveness of Pertussis vaccination (which you should now realize may also apply to other vaccines, as they too may be less effective than you thought them, and in some cases viruses can mutate, and in other cases people can be infectious post vaccination).  Now you are just beginning to learn more. 

In regard to your state rules , you might want to look up the California health department rules .  With regard to your homeschool group maybe you want to get involved with protocols and rules for sickness and notifications that will be helpful in that group.  

 

I’d like to add that, if in fact the vaccination effectiveness is only 73% within a year of the final booster, then even yearly vaccination may not protect your kids, not  even in a 100% vaccination area.

 I strongly suggest that you should start learning about and teaching your children “old fashioned” hygiene precautions.  

In general things like: Washing hands.  Not touching eyes, mouth etc.  Staying home when sick.

And particularly important for Pertussis, but also important for other illnesses:  Staying away from people when you are coughing.  Staying away from other people if they are coughing.  

Wear mask if necessary to be amongst others who are coughing or if you are coughing... can be a good idea too.  

Pertussis iirc is generally caught from direct exposure to droplets from someone infected with it coughing.  

It can help to understand that being vaccinated is often not protection against it.  Mistakenly thinking it is, may lead the vaccinated population to not take the “old fashioned “ precautions and thus to contribute to spreading the illness.  

I suspect that at my son’s school and others in our county, this is part of why the illness was spreading amongst the vaccinated kids—they tended not to avoid coughing on others nor to withdraw from people coughing due to a mistaken belief that their vaccinations gave them immunity both ways.  

 

 

 

This was extremely condescending. 

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17 hours ago, DeniseF said:

I am pro-vaccine. I am extremely frustrated with anti-vaxx pediatricians who spread disinformation and generate fear among parents...these docs, who are simply not very smart because they mis-read and mis-quote medical studies, are the true source of the problem. However I'm also frustrated with the no-vaxx-ever-for-my-kid parents (not the parents who selectively make specific delays or decisions for particular kids) for believing the conspiracy theories, etc, and shattering the herd immunity that we all need.

My own anecdote:

We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down.  One of my kids in particular struggled so hard to catch her breath with each coughing fit I actually thought she might die. It was terrifying. I understand that my kids' pertussis was likely a reduced version of what they would have experienced if they didn't have the vaccine. 

We went to our new homeschool group not knowing they had pertussis (doc thought it was allergic reaction causing bronchial spasming and told me they were safe to go to school). When I insisted on pertussis testing and got a positive result, I was told the health department would call me and the school. After 6 hours, they hadn't called so I wrote to the school director. This pretty much set off a panic in our homeschool community (and I was the villain for bringing pertussis to the community) because there are many anti-vaxxers, and of course many families with babies. Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community. The health department was totally casual about it and said I didn't have to do anything or notify anyone and they probably wouldn't get around to telling the school for quite some time. They said some schools send a note home but many don't and they aren't required to notify parents that their kid may have been exposed to pertussis. I am baffled by this.

When I had to switch docs due to insurance reasons, I went to a high profile pediatrician who described himself online and in writing as pro-vaccine. I told him the above story and said I wanted the TDAP for my now-due 11 year olds. He had zero reaction to the story.. After the exam, he started to leave. I reminded him they were due for TDAP. He said they follow an alternate vaccine schedule and would give it if I wanted it. (WHAT! He ignored my story and earlier specific request for the vaccine. Huh?) Later I learned he appeared in a recent anti-vaxx film. I wrote to him explaining why I was firing him. I've heard nothing back. No surprise. 

 

 

@Jean in Newcastle n

  I was replying to something I viewed as extremely condescending. ETA:   I didn’t mean what I Wrote to sound condescending, but my irritation with the post probably came out. And apologize to @DeniseF for that.

I know pediatric physicians who question the current vaccination protocols and are extremely intelligent.  

 

I do think it extremely important for parents to teach teach their children the “old fashioned “ ways of protecting against spreading illness.  

And,  anecdotally, I have known parents who when something is said about kids appearing to be sick, coughing, etc, say “oh, it’s okay, we vaccinate.” Like if someone is vaccinated she can neither catch nor spread anything.  

I think someone like DeniseF who has had such an experience is in a good position to work with a homeschooling group to achieve better procedures.  I don’t think that trying to change health department rules is likely to be effective, but a homeschooling group can probably be worked with.  

—— 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

I do think it extremely important for parents to teach teach their children the “old fashioned “ ways of protecting against spreading illness.  

And,  anecdotally, I have known parents who when something is said about kids appearing to be sick, coughing, etc, say “oh, it’s okay, we vaccinate.” Like if someone is vaccinated she can neither catch nor spread anything.  

Sometimes people just don't think things through.  My dc's best friend's mother (who had her dc get all of the vaccines) would bring her sick dc to group events, having given them Tylenol to lower their fevers so they'd feel well enough to attend.  Or she'd invite my dc over to play when some of her kids had fevers or a really bad cold.  After learning my lesson with that (because every time my dc got sick, too), I started asking if any of the kids were sick; we'd reschedule, if they were.  One time when she told me no, she neglected to mention that SHE was sick with a fever, runny nose, and cough.  It became obvious when I came to pick up my dc, AFTER dc had spent hours there and had eaten a sandwich for lunch, which the sick mom had prepared.  Yep.  Dc got sick again, and so did all the rest of us.  :dry:  We stopped hanging out after that one.  She's a lovely lady and will help anyone in need, but she just doesn't get the germ thing.  Just because "it's only a cold" doesn't mean we want it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, klmama said:

Sometimes people just don't think things through.  My dc's best friend's mother (who had her dc get all of the vaccines) would bring her sick dc to group events, having given them Tylenol to lower their fevers so they'd feel well enough to attend.  Or she'd invite my dc over to play when some of her kids had fevers or a really bad cold.  After learning my lesson with that (because every time my dc got sick, too), I started asking if any of the kids were sick; we'd reschedule, if they were.  One time when she told me no, she neglected to mention that SHE was sick with a fever, runny nose, and cough.  It became obvious when I came to pick up my dc, AFTER dc had spent hours there and had eaten a sandwich for lunch, which the sick mom had prepared.  Yep.  Dc got sick again, and so did all the rest of us.  :dry:  We stopped hanging out after that one.  She's a lovely lady and will help anyone in need, but she just doesn't get the germ thing.  Just because "it's only a cold" doesn't mean we want it.

 

 

Back when I was super immunocompromised and doing the whole mask thing during the winter, I had people (including adults) show up at my house while sick.  Somehow they thought that since I was masked it was ok for them to still shed germs/viruses over my house.  It was terribly rude of me but I wouldn't let them even into my house.  (They are still friends so I got over my annoyance at them and they got over it towards me too.) 

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On 2/13/2019 at 3:23 PM, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Damn government wanting to protect its citizens from dangerous communicable diseases.  Polio for all! FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, those pesky parents who can't figure out on their own that the immunizations protect their children but have to have a government nanny make the decisions for them.

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1 hour ago, DeniseF said:

Fading vaccine immunity is the reason we need herd immunity...for everyone's protection.

 

April 26, 2016

Long-Lasting Immunity After Vaccination for Tetanus and Diphtheria

Neil M. Ampel, MD reviewing Hammarlund E et al. Clin Infect Dis 2016 May 1

Models predict that antibody levels will remain well above protective levels for many decades.

Immunization against tetanus and diphtheria is so effective that concern about vaccine-related adverse events associated with booster vaccinations has assumed greater importance. Currently, repeat immunization in the U.S. is recommended every 10 years for those aged >6 years, but longitudinal studies have suggested that antibody titers last far longer than this interval. In a cross-sectional study, researchers in Oregon analyzed tetanus and diphtheria toxin-specific antibody levels among 546 adults recruited from 2002 to 2008.

In 97% of the study population, both tetanus-specific and diphtheria-specific antibody concentrations were above the protective level of 0.01 IU/mL. A regression model estimated that, without further booster vaccination, 95% of the population would remain protected against tetanus for up to 72 years and against diphtheria for up to 42 years. While subjects aged 50 or older had lower antibody titers to both tetanus and diphtheria than younger subjects, antibody half-lives were the same in the older and younger groups.”  Journal Watch

———

The above study was in adults not children unfortunately.  However, it seems that trivalent vaccinations are sometimes grouping vaccinations that provide lengthy immunity with ones that wane quickly. 

I am wondering, when you fired your children’s doctor and pushed for your twins to have a booster at age 11, a year after an actual pertussis illness (which might be expected to give some 4 years immunity, maybe more?) and presumably 4 - 6 years after their last Tetanus-pertussis-diphtheria type booster, which illness did you think the booster at that time would help to provide immunity for?  

 

If your kids have no troubles with vaccinations it probably did no harm, but also may have been no help beyond the long lasting immunity from  T and D parts of vaccine, plus natural immunity from having had pertussis illness itself.  Then in  5 years or so when the natural pertussis illness immunity may be fading,  so very likely will the quick waning protection for P part of the vaccination have faded.  And may have done the minor harm of your thinking them and them thinking themselves protected at a time when once again, perhaps, they aren’t.

 

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51 minutes ago, DeniseF said:

Fading vaccine immunity is the reason we need herd immunity...for everyone's protection.

You're simplifying the situation though. 

Vaccines have definitely reduced the incidence of VPDs and the complications associated with them, but it's also not perfect.

Before vaccination, when most people got these childhood diseases, breastfeeding infants were protected through their mothers. Most people got the diseases as children, when complications were least severe. So your adults and elderly (who are more at risk of  complications) were protected from getting the diseases again by the lifelong immunity they acquired as children. These really were primarily childhood diseases. 

Much was assumed about the long-term effectiveness of vaccines and because of waning immunity, boosters have been added to the schedule. Some vaccines don't last very long at all. The mumps portion of the MMR isn't very effective, which is why we still see outbreaks in highly-vaccinated populations. The pertussis vaccine has been shown to lose effectiveness much more quickly than previously thought, which is the reason we have seen a huge push for boosters for adults in recent years.  Etc. Etc. We really haven't had widespread vaccination campaigns for very long. My parents were likely to have gotten these childhood diseases naturally and had lifelong immunity, but I never did. And without regular titer checks, I have no way of knowing if I am still immune or if I was ever immune. (A small portion of people won't ever develop immunity via vaccination.) This whole "herd immunity" through vaccination is still an experiment. But what we're finding is that thanks to vaccination, those most vulnerable to VPDs are now infants who are not getting passive immunity through their breastfeeding mothers but still too young to be vaccinated and adults whose immunity has waned.

I'm not saying that I want to go back to the day when everyone got measles either. But vaccination is also not a perfect science. There is still a lot we are learning about vaccines and their effectiveness and how they effect our immune systems.  It's easy to blame these outbreaks on a very small number of anti-vaxxers, but the reality is there are a lot of us adults who are unknowingly completely unprotected. I can see if I can find the link, but I read recently that Washington has very high vaccination rates-- high enough that we should have "herd immunity" among school aged kids. So if these outbreaks aren't being caused by unvaccinated kids, why are we seeing them?

 

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55 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

April 26, 2016

Long-Lasting Immunity After Vaccination for Tetanus and Diphtheria

Neil M. Ampel, MD reviewing Hammarlund E et al. Clin Infect Dis 2016 May 1

Models predict that antibody levels will remain well above protective levels for many decades.

Immunization against tetanus and diphtheria is so effective that concern about vaccine-related adverse events associated with booster vaccinations has assumed greater importance. Currently, repeat immunization in the U.S. is recommended every 10 years for those aged >6 years, but longitudinal studies have suggested that antibody titers last far longer than this interval. In a cross-sectional study, researchers in Oregon analyzed tetanus and diphtheria toxin-specific antibody levels among 546 adults recruited from 2002 to 2008.

In 97% of the study population, both tetanus-specific and diphtheria-specific antibody concentrations were above the protective level of 0.01 IU/mL. A regression model estimated that, without further booster vaccination, 95% of the population would remain protected against tetanus for up to 72 years and against diphtheria for up to 42 years. While subjects aged 50 or older had lower antibody titers to both tetanus and diphtheria than younger subjects, antibody half-lives were the same in the older and younger groups.”  Journal Watch

———

The above study was in adults not children unfortunately.  However, it seems that trivalent vaccinations are sometimes grouping vaccinations that provide lengthy immunity with ones that wane quickly. 

I am wondering, when you fired your children’s doctor and pushed for your twins to have a booster at age 11, a year after an actual pertussis illness (which might be expected to give some 4 years immunity, maybe more?) and presumably 4 - 6 years after their last Tetanus-pertussis-diphtheria type booster, which illness did you think the booster at that time would help to provide immunity for?  

 

If your kids have no troubles with vaccinations it probably did no harm, but also may have been no help beyond the long lasting immunity from  T and D parts of vaccine, plus natural immunity from having had pertussis illness itself.  Then in  5 years or so when the natural pertussis illness immunity may be fading,  so very likely will the quick waning protection for P part of the vaccination have faded.  And may have done the minor harm of your thinking them and them thinking themselves protected at a time when once again, perhaps, they aren’t.

 

 

This study says "on average, whooping cough immunity lasts at least 30 years and perhaps as long as 70 years after natural infection". It s my understanding that if you get whooping cough you will have life-long immunity. 

Susan in TX

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On 2/11/2019 at 12:38 PM, Margaret in CO said:

What does a mom do? She prays a lot, when her kids HAVE to start getting them due to military service. She prays a LOT when they go through anthrax, yellow fever, smallpox, dengue, etc. vax. How do I know this? I'm that mom. However, I have one that cannot be vaxed for even tetanus, and one who sustained a brain injury from the pertussis vax.

My daughter had major neurological injury from pertussis as well...or it is the one the doctor blames.  We are not sure she had her 4 year shots and went majorly backward in verbal and memory abilities.  We have not vaccinated the rest of our kiddos since, but would and have encouraged our kiddos to make educated choices for themselves once they reach old enough to understand risks vs. benefits for them personally.  They may go overseas for travel and need to be vaccinated to protect themselves and others when they come back, go to the miltary, or desire to dobso because they want to work in childcare or medicine later...but I want it to be their choice as we regret doing them with our daughter...she is doing better now 9 years later, but it was definitely slow and steady.  I hope all goes well for your other kiddos.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Susan in TX said:

 

This study says "on average, whooping cough immunity lasts at least 30 years and perhaps as long as 70 years after natural infection". It s my understanding that if you get whooping cough you will have life-long immunity. 

Susan in TX

 

Getting whooping cough after having had the vaccination doesn’t yet have the same basis of long experience and many cases for knowing what the length of immunity will be.

 It isn’t an identical situation to just getting the illness itself.  (Eta: natural infection in an unvaccinated person and infection —no longer quite “natural”— in a vaccinated person don’t seem to be the same. However, 1 year after the actual infection , the twins posted about would have likely had excellent immunity, an odd time imo, to be so very upset with a doctor for not being gung ho to vaccinate right then.  I mean thinking about it logically rather than based off a standardized protocol.) 

 

When we had the local outbreak I was told that a pediatrician’s  personal observation is that an infection after immunization may not give the usual lifetime immunity that it used to normally have.  

Iirc He said that reinfection at iirc 8-10 years can happen when pertussis illness follows vaccination.  I was trying to be conservative with the 5 for provaxxer considerations.  

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1 hour ago, Susan in TX said:

 

This study says "on average, whooping cough immunity lasts at least 30 years and perhaps as long as 70 years after natural infection". It s my understanding that if you get whooping cough you will have life-long immunity. 

Susan in TX

 

I googled to see if anything written fit with what I recall the doctor saying.  

 

 

Is it possible to have pertussis more than once?

Because immunity from early childhood vaccination decreases over time, adults and teens can become infected with pertussis time and again. 

...

Is the rise in cases among all ages?

The numbers of cases are rising among all age groups, although most pertussis cases are among adults and teens.  Over time, protection against whooping cough from early childhood vaccination decreases; without the Tdap booster vaccine, teens and adults are much more likely to become infected repeatedly and spread the disease unknowingly.  “

 

 

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1 hour ago, homemommy83 said:

My daughter had major neurological injury from pertussis as well...or it is the one the doctor blames. 

 

You mean from the vaccine,  right? 

Not the illness?

 

The sentence seems like it implicates the illness, though the context indicated the vaccination, so I wanted to clarify. 

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32 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

You mean from the vaccine,  right? 

Not the illness?

 

The sentence seems like it implicates the illness, though the context indicated the vaccination, so I wanted to clarify. 

She was speaking of the vaccine...so I was responding in kind that my daughter was vaccine injured as well.  Sorry it wasn't clear.

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45 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I googled to see if anything written fit with what I recall the doctor saying.  

 

 

Is it possible to have pertussis more than once?

Because immunity from early childhood vaccination decreases over time, adults and teens can become infected with pertussis time and again. 

...

Is the rise in cases among all ages?

The numbers of cases are rising among all age groups, although most pertussis cases are among adults and teens.  Over time, protection against whooping cough from early childhood vaccination decreases; without the Tdap booster vaccine, teens and adults are much more likely to become infected repeatedly and spread the disease unknowingly.  “

 

 

My husband got the pertussis vaccine as he works in a hospital and they were pushing it free on all workers.  He got pertussis 6 months later.  He was fully vaccinated as a child and again in the army...and again 6 months prior.  Luckily none of our nonvaccinated nor 2 vaccinated children got it.  It is a horrible sickness...we thought he had pnuemonia and instead he had pertussis.

 

Oddly, a similar thing happened in our house with mumps...only my 2 fully vaccinated children got the mumps 2 and 4 years respectively, after they were fully immunized.  I don't believe the vaccine caused it or anything, but I do find it very odd that my nonvaccinated children didn't get it.

 

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30 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Here are a couple articles about waning immunity from the acellular pertussis vaccine. 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153326

 

 

I found this first one particularly excellent as a discussion including the possibility of targeted immunization in advancing outbreaks rather than routine administration.  I think iirc reading about this that part of small pox effective eradication utilized a targeted approach to immunization.  

 

Some quotes that particularly struck me— sorry about the type size which seems out of my control on cellphone.

 

CONCLUSIONS: Routine Tdap did not prevent pertussis outbreaks

   Conclusions

Among teenagers who have only ever received acellular pertussis vaccines, Tdap provides moderate protection against pertussis during the first year after vaccination, and then protection wanes to <9% at ≥4 years after vaccination. Routine immunization with Tdap did not prevent pertussis outbreaks among this highly vaccinated population. We expect future pertussis epidemics to be larger as the cohort that has only received acellular pertussis vaccines ages. The results in this study raise serious questions regarding the benefits of routinely administering a single dose of Tdap to every adolescent aged 11 or 12 years. Because Tdap provides reasonable short-term protection against pertussis, Tdap may more effectively contain pertussis if it is administered to adolescents in anticipation of a local pertussis outbreak rather than on a routine basis

 

That would have to be studied as to whether it would work.  Seems like it could be worth trying to see if it is an improvement.

 

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 11:09 PM, Susan in TX said:

 

Adults and older children who get whooping cough do not usually get the classic cough with the whooping sound. Often adults (and older children) won't even feel that sick. They just have a nagging cough that just will not go away. 

Susan in TX

My husband definitely did the full whoop, but since he was fully and recently vaccinated, we had only thought pneumonia.  It lasted months-he wouldnt even go to the doctor despite all night coughing fits until it had lasted a month with no improvement...he is stubborn😉.  Thank goodness none of the kids even had a cough the entire time...which is shocking as we live in a very small house, but he did keep everyone up at night coughing...worried to death about him.

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On 2/11/2019 at 8:46 PM, AbcdeDooDah said:

 Awareness needs to include adults then, yes?

I'm not so sure about not being deliberate when I've heard excuses like, "My insurance won't pay for them." They're not willing to put their money where their mouth is. 

 

I also think some adults hate shots as much as 2 year olds...and for that reason alone that some don't do it...also they are not required to do so like children are...because it probably wouldn't have a way of being enforced without encroachment upon medical freedom.

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33 minutes ago, homemommy83 said:

My husband got the pertussis vaccine as he works in a hospital and they were pushing it free on all workers.  He got pertussis 6 months later.  He was fully vaccinated as a child and again in the army...and again 6 months prior.  Luckily none of our nonvaccinated nor 2 vaccinated children got it.  It is a horrible sickness...we thought he had pnuemonia and instead he had pertussis.

 

Oddly, a similar thing happened in our house with mumps...only my 2 fully vaccinated children got the mumps 2 and 4 years respectively, after they were fully immunized.  I don't believe the vaccine caused it or anything, but I do find it very odd that my nonvaccinated children didn't get it.

 

 

Your two with mumps got it at same time as each other?

I hope that the children who seemed not to get it could perhaps have had it so mildly as to not noticeably affect them, but enough to have become immune.  

ETA: I wonder if recruiting families Having children who were vaccinated and who weren’t within same family could yield helpful information for studies.  It isn’t identical twin level of similarity, but there will be a lot of similar genetics and similar exposures.  

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On 2/11/2019 at 5:34 PM, LMD said:

 

Yeah, there is definitely a mindset that these diseases are not that bad and we can cure them with vitamin c so why should we quarantine ourselves? They really think coming to a homeschool group meeting with whooping cough is appropriate. 😡

In certain circles, I got a lot of shocked side eyes for admitting to giving my dd the gardasil vaccine. 

I teach Sunday School and it has been horrible this winter...parents bring their fevering children who were hospitalized the day before with the flu or who had been vomiting all night the night before and are still ill to class.  This is every single week i have had to call parents from the sanctuary...that absolutely knew their children were still contagious.  Also, not only is the child wanting to go home to bed, they have possibly transmitted the illness to the other kids, and I am 6 months pregnant.  I really don't understand this at all...they are educated people...they understand communicable diseases...basic home quarantine your kiddos please.

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7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Your two with mumps got it at same time as each other?

I hope that the children who seemed not to get it could perhaps have had it so mildly as to not noticeably affect them, but enough to have become immune.  

ETA: I wonder if recruiting families Having children who were vaccinated and who weren’t within same family could yield helpful information for studies.  It isn’t identical twin level of similarity, but there will be a lot of similar genetics and similar exposures.  

Yes, they had it at the same time a day apart symptoms started.  I really thought they would all get it, but none of the other kids had any symptoms at all...I have never seen swollen lymph nodes to that degree before or since.

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10 minutes ago, homemommy83 said:

I teach Sunday School and it has been horrible this winter...parents bring their fevering children who were hospitalized the day before with the flu or who had been vomiting all night the night before and are still ill to class.  This is every single week i have had to call parents from the sanctuary...that absolutely knew their children were still contagious.  Also, not only is the child wanting to go home to bed, they have possibly transmitted the illness to the other kids, and I am 6 months pregnant.  I really don't understand this at all...they are educated people...they understand communicable diseases...basic home quarantine your kiddos please.

 

Are there posted or otherwise clear instructions to keep sick children / people home?  I think what people know gets ... confused... and very clear instructions to stay home if someone in the family has ____ fill in the blank (fever, cough, ...). At one church I went to I think the belief was that God would protect, and there was a sense of “obligation” to attend, to show dedication, whether well or sick.   

If a lot of people go when sick that itself can give the feeling that that’s the expected thing to do at that place.  

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2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Are there posted or otherwise clear instructions to keep sick children / people home?  I think what people know gets ... confused... and very clear instructions to stay home if someone in the family has ____ fill in the blank (fever, cough, ...). At one church I went to I think the belief was that God would protect, and there was a sense of “obligation” to attend, to show dedication, whether well or sick.   

If a lot of people go when sick that itself can give the feeling that that’s the expected thing to do at that place.  

Our church is very laid back about attendance because it is huge, but I personally doubt any parent who has watched their kid vomit all night and is still fevering really thinks that it is ok😉 to bring them to church, but they do.

I have personally asked for them to put up papers, but have been rejected😣.  I have instead chosen to educate my whole class about preventing germs during class- including washing hands upon arrival as snack is shortly after😉...we have sinks right in the classrooms.  I also require any kiddos who go to the little bathroom to have a helper help them wash their hands immediately after as this is under age 6 kiddos😉.  I just want to prevent transmission as much as possible in our church...norovirus has made 4 rounds this winter in the church and now their is flu😷.

 

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34 minutes ago, homemommy83 said:

Yes, they had it at the same time a day apart symptoms started.  I really thought they would all get it, but none of the other kids had any symptoms at all...I have never seen swollen lymph nodes to that degree before or since.

I would have to go find the source, but something like 20-30% of people who come down with mumps have no symptoms. 

Just another note that blew my mind... the CDC says 72% of people who contract polio will have no symptoms whatsoever. I have heard that number to be as high as 95% though, with a few more only developing cold-like symptoms. https://www.cdc.gov/polio/about/index.htm

ETA: Link with the 90-95% statistic. I know how devastating polio was for those that did develop paralysis, but still this statistic is mind boggling to me. https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=poliomyelitis-polio-in-children-90-P02536

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