kids of antivaxxers grow up

[gardenmom5]

here's an 18 year old who has started getting all of the immunizations he never got.

 

I'm curious how the mother's react.  do they allow their children their choice? or do they react like a narcissistic parent would when you go against them?

his mother's response sparks that narcissistic vibe to me...

 

 

[Farrar]

There have been a bunch of stories along this line lately. WaPo also had a piece. I think some parents are just like, whatever. But it's clear that for many, this is a religion. It's as if their child has left the fold.

There was an article from several years ago that I can't find where a girl in the UK had parents who were anti-vax and she had gotten a staggering number of preventable diseases when she was younger. She had suffered a good bit for her parents' refusal. ETA: Found it: https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/01/growing-up-unvaccinated-a-healthy-lifestyle-couldnt-prevent-many-childhood-illnesses.html

Edited February 11, 2019 by Farrar

[Jean in Newcastle]

In this case he was allowed to do it because he is 18. But in some controlling families, young adults (often girls especially) still aren’t allowed to make their own decisions. And breaking free is difficult financially and emotionally. Especially because SOMETIMES these are the same families who don’t homeschool their kids well in the high school years and don’t provide ID necessary to live on their own. 

No, antivaxxers aren’t a monolithic group but they are more prominent in certain ideological communities. 

[PrincessMommy]

Mom's reaction may be because he's not just deciding to get his vaccines but he is saying things like "It's a miracle I'm still alive."  I'd be hurt if my kids went beyond the "We're just doing things differently than you did.." to publicly insinuating that I was a terrible parent.  

[maize]

39 minutes ago, Farrar said:

There have been a bunch of stories along this line lately. WaPo also had a piece. I think some parents are just like, whatever. But it's clear that for many, this is a religion. It's as if their child has left the fold.

There was an article from several years ago that I can't find where a girl in the UK had parents who were anti-vax and she had gotten a staggering number of preventable diseases when she was younger. She had suffered a good bit for her parents' refusal. ETA: Found it: https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/01/growing-up-unvaccinated-a-healthy-lifestyle-couldnt-prevent-many-childhood-illnesses.html

 

Do many anti-vaxxers think healthy living will prevent their children from contracting disease? That's not a point of view I have encountered. I found the argument in this article to be rather weak; several of the diseases she mentioned contracting did not have vaccines available in the 70's (i.e. chickenpox, meningitis, HPV) or are still not vaccine preventable (i.e. tonsillitis, scarlet fever, peritonsillar abscess). It's nice that her vaccinated children have had few diseases that required antibiotics but I'm not aware of research showing that kids who are vaccinated develop fewer diseases not related to those vaccinated for. 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

15 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Mom's reaction may be because he's not just deciding to get his vaccines but he is saying things like "It's a miracle I'm still alive."  I'd be hurt if my kids went beyond the "We're just doing things differently than you did.." to publicly insinuating that I was a terrible parent.  

 

I have zero sympathy for the mother.

[HomeAgain]

43 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Mom's reaction may be because he's not just deciding to get his vaccines but he is saying things like "It's a miracle I'm still alive."  I'd be hurt if my kids went beyond the "We're just doing things differently than you did.." to publicly insinuating that I was a terrible parent.  

His words make it sound like this has been a point of contention in his house for a while.  "My body/my choice" extends to children as well, especially if they're in the age of reasoning.  I have my own thoughts on vaccines, but starting at about age 13 I had my oldest sit down with his doctor and discuss options available to him each year (flu, HPV), and make an informed decision based on research.
If this was one of the first things the kid did when he turned 18, then I would think that his parents were more than oppressive when it came to his medical choices and forced him to take risks that he wasn't willing to take.

[klmama]

32 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Mom's reaction may be because he's not just deciding to get his vaccines but he is saying things like "It's a miracle I'm still alive."  I'd be hurt if my kids went beyond the "We're just doing things differently than you did.." to publicly insinuating that I was a terrible parent.  

I agree.  I think the mother in the article's reaction is a little extreme, but I think the son's comments are quite extreme, too.  It's not like polio or any other illness has been running rampant in Ohio, killing hundreds of people, and by some miracle he didn't catch it.  

[Garga]

47 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Do many anti-vaxxers think healthy living will prevent their children from contracting disease? That's not a point of view I have encountered. I found the argument in this article to be rather weak; several of the diseases she mentioned contracting did not have vaccines available in the 70's (i.e. chickenpox, meningitis, HPV) or are still not vaccine preventable (i.e. tonsillitis, scarlet fever, peritonsillar abscess). It's nice that her vaccinated children have had few diseases that required antibiotics but I'm not aware of research showing that kids who are vaccinated develop fewer diseases not related to those vaccinated for. 

 

I think her point was that as healthy living as she was, she still contracted *all* the diseases. So if modern day anti-vaxxers are refusing the chicken pox vax, for example, they’ll probably get the chicken pox, same as she did.  Living healthy won’t necessarily protect you from diseases that have vaccines, as she caught most of them. And since she had measles, her immune system was shot for a few years, so she caught all the diseases that don’t have vaccines, like tonsillitis, that her body might have normally fought off, had not her immune system been ravaged.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Garga

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

There have been a bunch of stories along this line lately. WaPo also had a piece. I think some parents are just like, whatever. But it's clear that for many, this is a religion. It's as if their child has left the fold.

There was an article from several years ago that I can't find where a girl in the UK had parents who were anti-vax and she had gotten a staggering number of preventable diseases when she was younger. She had suffered a good bit for her parents' refusal. ETA: Found it: https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/01/growing-up-unvaccinated-a-healthy-lifestyle-couldnt-prevent-many-childhood-illnesses.html

That was a very interesting article. Thanks for linking it! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, maize said:

 

Do many anti-vaxxers think healthy living will prevent their children from contracting disease? That's not a point of view I have encountered. I found the argument in this article to be rather weak; several of the diseases she mentioned contracting did not have vaccines available in the 70's (i.e. chickenpox, meningitis, HPV) or are still not vaccine preventable (i.e. tonsillitis, scarlet fever, peritonsillar abscess). It's nice that her vaccinated children have had few diseases that required antibiotics but I'm not aware of research showing that kids who are vaccinated develop fewer diseases not related to those vaccinated for. 

 

In the late 90s, early 00s, a lot of antis did seem to think this way IME. They looked to the info in that stupid Shot in the Dark book and believed that diseases like Diphtheria were “going away on their own” due to improved sanitation and better treatment and nutrition, and did not, in fact, drastically drop in incidence due to vaccines. Thus, they believed that with superior nutrition their kids would not contract measels, say, even if there were a local outbreak. 

Some also thought the diseases were “no big deal,” either because they believed their super-healthy, sugar-free, crunchy kids would effectively fight the virus and thus, symptoms would be minor, or because possibly in some instances, they did not understand how devastating things like pertussis can actually be. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, maize said:

 

Do many anti-vaxxers think healthy living will prevent their children from contracting disease? That's not a point of view I have encountered. I found the argument in this article to be rather weak; several of the diseases she mentioned contracting did not have vaccines available in the 70's (i.e. chickenpox, meningitis, HPV) or are still not vaccine preventable (i.e. tonsillitis, scarlet fever, peritonsillar abscess). It's nice that her vaccinated children have had few diseases that required antibiotics but I'm not aware of research showing that kids who are vaccinated develop fewer diseases not related to those vaccinated for. 

 

Yes, I have seen them think this way. I think she knows the basis of her argument is weak - she says at one point that she's just an anecdote and anecdotes aren't great ways to base your decisions. The sheer number of health issues she faced seems honestly pretty unusual - even for an anti-vax kid, it seems really surprising that you'd get all the things, basically - though they were mostly vax preventable things. And HPV caused cancer to boot. I think it was more an interesting tale.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Farrar

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Margaret in CO said:

What does a mom do? She prays a lot, when her kids HAVE to start getting them due to military service. She prays a LOT when they go through anthrax, yellow fever, smallpox, dengue, etc. vax. How do I know this? I'm that mom. However, I have one that cannot be vaxed for even tetanus, and one who sustained a brain injury from the pertussis vax.

😥 FWIW I am totally sympathetic to parents like you.  There are risks to vaccines, although rare, and yes there are some people that are hurt by them.  I have zero problem with anyone having those actual experiences in their family doing what they need to do. To me that is why the rest of us "average folk" need to be vaccinated.  I do not put that into the same category as ideological objections based on misinformation on the internet.  

[maize]

1 hour ago, Margaret in CO said:

What does a mom do? She prays a lot, when her kids HAVE to start getting them due to military service. She prays a LOT when they go through anthrax, yellow fever, smallpox, dengue, etc. vax. How do I know this? I'm that mom. However, I have one that cannot be vaxed for even tetanus, and one who sustained a brain injury from the pertussis vax.

There's a vaccine for dengue now? Good to know! Some of my family members have been through that disease, it is nasty. 

[Bambam]

I was selective about vaccines for my kids. (Does that make me an anti-vaxxer? not that I care, I just wondered)
When my kids turn 17, I start talking to them about the vaccines we elected not to get them as well as ones they will need for college. I let them do the research and make their decisions. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Bambam

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 I remember thinking that sanitation and western medicine would save us...that was definitely the spiel, along with the supposed autism link, back in the day. But here's where I was very different, as an anti/selective vaxxing parent in the late 90s: I *always* said these two things:

1. If/when the balance ever shifted and it seemed that the disease was more dangerous than the vax again, we would, without hesitation, get the vax, and

2. I thought the compulsory vax laws should stay on the books. Most states have laws allowing quarantines during epidemics for those won't immunize; I thought that was important.

So that's where I part ways with today's crowd. I do NOT understand them. In the late 90s, we were definitely ignorant and hornswoggled. No question. But we thought our kids were "safe" from the diseases, and we'd been led to believe the vaccines might not be safe. Today's crowd doesn't care if their children get deadly VPDs or spread them to even more fragile children. And we know more about herd immunity and necessary percentages. And the autism thing has been debunked.

AND if there was an autism link, during an actual epidemic, why do people think autism is worse than sickness, permanent damage, or death?

Who are these people??

Signed,

90s anti/selective vaxxer whose children were immediately, fully vaccinated as soon as the Wakefield thing was debunked. (Edit: I became "anti/selective" because we were working with actual autism diagnoses at the time of the Wakefield hysteria, and we did have some vax reactions that made us want to do one at a time, at least. We continued that policy even though we eventually got everyone fully vaxed. So I was never an ideological vax hater - we were just unsure what we were dealing with, and in the process of spacing out the overload we stumbled into anti-vax world and camped awhile.) 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t think that a delayed or selective vaxxer is an anti- vaxxer. Anti- vaxxers are against all vaccination. That’s the anti part. 

 

[goldberry]

41 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/first-dengue-fever-vaccine-gets-green-light-in-3-countries/

Maybe she didn't get the vax for that one, or they gave it to her when she was IN Brazil. I know she had the yellow fever one before she went. 

 

Yellow fever is a harsh one.  When DD was 5 she had multiple cases of strep throat treated with multiple rounds of antibiotics.  She had an immune system reaction called HSP, which is most often seen as a reaction to the yellow fever vaccine.  Although I have heard it extremely rarely can present with other vaccines as well.  Just another case showing that infections and illnesses themselves can cause the same inflammatory immune responses as vaccination in some people.

[Pen]

Possibly of interest- bold added:

 

Abstract

Examination of the weekly measles notifications for England and Wales, 1950-1979, reveals a regular biennial pattern of major and minor epidemics before the national immunization programme began in 1968, followed by an annual cycle of minor epidemics. Each year the reported incidence reaches its annual low between weeks 36 and 39, very close to the opening of primary schools. Analysis of these data with a simple mass action model reveals that the underlying transmission parameter has had a similar annual pattern in years of major and minor epidemics. The transmission parameter rises three times each year, coinciding with opening of school terms, and falls with school term and mid-term holidays. This pattern of the transmission parameter has been maintained in the decade since national vaccination began, indicating that the importance of schools in the annual dynamics of measles has not changed. The analysis further suggests that the national measles vaccination programme has not lowered the total number of individuals susceptible to measles in England and Wales.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/16114230_Measles_in_England_and_Wales-I_An_Analysis_of_Factors_Underlying_Seasonal_Patterns

 

(ETA: In re the gone viral article by Amy Parker, I was curious what the rate of illnesses was in Lake District, England in the 1970s.    There are also btw, quite a few not-gone -viral personal essays giving opposite side anecdotes .  And I should add that the bold part surprised me a great deal, since I have tended to accept that measles vaccination does usually work to prevent measles.  )

Edited February 11, 2019 by Pen

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 I remember thinking that sanitation and western medicine would save us...that was definitely the spiel, along with the supposed autism link, back in the day. But here's where I was very different, as an anti/selective vaxxing parent in the late 90s: I *always* said these two things:

1. If/when the balance ever shifted and it seemed that the disease was more dangerous than the vax again, we would, without hesitation, get the vax, and

2. I thought the compulsory vax laws should stay on the books. Most states have laws allowing quarantines during epidemics for those won't immunize; I thought that was important.

So that's where I part ways with today's crowd. I do NOT understand them. In the late 90s, we were definitely ignorant and hornswoggled. No question. But we thought our kids were "safe" from the diseases, and we'd been led to believe the vaccines might not be safe. Today's crowd doesn't care if their children get deadly VPDs or spread them to even more fragile children. And we know more about herd immunity and necessary percentages. And the autism thing has been debunked.

AND if there was an autism link, during an actual epidemic, why do people think autism is worse than sickness, permanent damage, or death?

Who are these people??

Signed,

90s anti/selective vaxxer whose children were immediately, fully vaccinated as soon as the Wakefield thing was debunked. (Edit: I became "anti/selective" because we were working with actual autism diagnoses at the time of the Wakefield hysteria, and we did have some vax reactions that made us want to do one at a time, at least. We continued that policy even though we eventually got everyone fully vaxed. So I was never an ideological vax hater - we were just unsure what we were dealing with, and in the process of spacing out the overload we stumbled into anti-vax world and camped awhile.) 

We chose a delayed/slow vaccine schedule for one of our 5 kids and all of the others had a typical schedule. We opted for for a slow schedule for our son with autism. I knew almost after birth he had autism and my pediatrician thought I was crazy. At 15 months after the MMR vaccine we had alot of regression. So much so our pediatrician became concerned. I remember telling him I did not believe it was vax induced but that the inflammation caused from the vaccine led to some regressive symptoms. He quickly got us connected with an in house therapist who started work with him weekly. We have continued to notice that after each vaccine, even to this day he has a tough time for a bit after. Usually just a couple of weeks. He does this when he is sick too unless it is a fever and then he seems really tuned in. It is interesting. Despite all of this we still vaccinate to include flu every year. I think a slower schedule is a great compromise. I think opting out of vaccines should only be for those kids with allergies that will harm them substantially if they get them (I know a family like this). Otherwise healthy kids should get them for the health of our country. 

[maize]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Possibly of interest- bold added:

 

Abstract

Examination of the weekly measles notifications for England and Wales, 1950-1979, reveals a regular biennial pattern of major and minor epidemics before the national immunization programme began in 1968, followed by an annual cycle of minor epidemics. Each year the reported incidence reaches its annual low between weeks 36 and 39, very close to the opening of primary schools. Analysis of these data with a simple mass action model reveals that the underlying transmission parameter has had a similar annual pattern in years of major and minor epidemics. The transmission parameter rises three times each year, coinciding with opening of school terms, and falls with school term and mid-term holidays. This pattern of the transmission parameter has been maintained in the decade since national vaccination began, indicating that the importance of schools in the annual dynamics of measles has not changed. The analysis further suggests that the national measles vaccination programme has not lowered the total number of individuals susceptible to measles in England and Wales.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/16114230_Measles_in_England_and_Wales-I_An_Analysis_of_Factors_Underlying_Seasonal_Patterns

 

(ETA: In re the gone viral article by Amy Parker, I was curious what the rate of illnesses was in Lake District, England in the 1970s.    There are also btw, quite a few not-gone -viral personal essays giving opposite side anecdotes .  And I should add that the bold part surprised me a great deal, since I have tended to accept that measles vaccination does usually work to prevent measles.  )

I read the study; what is meant by the bit you bolded  " The analysis further suggests that the national measles vaccination programme has not lowered the total number of individuals susceptible to measles in England and Wales." is that, during the period analyzed, the number of individuals susceptible to measles in any given year was holding steady; that is, the number who had not either been vaccinated or had the measles already. It does not in any way mean that measles vaccination did not work to prevent measles--but it takes into account that having had the measles also works to prevent measles. Before vaccination, a huge percentage of the population was immune to measles in any given year because they had already had the illness previously. Those who were susceptible were those who had not had the illness. After vaccination began, a large percentage of the population continued to be immune to measles--those who had had the illness previously plus those who had been vaccinated. Those who had neither had the illness nor been vaccinated made up the group of susceptible individuals. Every year new babies were born, adding to the number of susceptible individuals; every year a certain percentage of those susceptible individuals dropped out of the susceptible pool either by becoming infected with measles OR by being vaccinated for measles. Before the vaccine program was initiated, a much greater number were dropping out of the susceptible pool via measles infection.

If you drill into the data, you find that in England and Wales during the period of this research that follows the initiation of measles vaccination enough doses of vaccine were administered each year to account for about 1/2 of the births that year. Vaccination was far from universal and had not yet reached the levels necessary to provide herd immunity.

You can see the effect of vaccine introduction on yearly measles cases here (a similar chart is in the PDF of the study you referenced)

 

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by maize

[AbcdeDooDah]

I wonder how many vaccinated kids grow up to be antivaxxers?

[LMD]

2 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Today's crowd doesn't care if their children get deadly VPDs or spread them to even more fragile children. 

 

Yeah, there is definitely a mindset that these diseases are not that bad and we can cure them with vitamin c so why should we quarantine ourselves? They really think coming to a homeschool group meeting with whooping cough is appropriate. 😡

In certain circles, I got a lot of shocked side eyes for admitting to giving my dd the gardasil vaccine. 

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 I remember thinking that sanitation and western medicine would save us...that was definitely the spiel, along with the supposed autism link, back in the day. But here's where I was very different, as an anti/selective vaxxing parent in the late 90s: I *always* said these two things:

1. If/when the balance ever shifted and it seemed that the disease was more dangerous than the vax again, we would, without hesitation, get the vax, and

2. I thought the compulsory vax laws should stay on the books. Most states have laws allowing quarantines during epidemics for those won't immunize; I thought that was important.

So that's where I part ways with today's crowd. I do NOT understand them. In the late 90s, we were definitely ignorant and hornswoggled. No question. But we thought our kids were "safe" from the diseases, and we'd been led to believe the vaccines might not be safe. Today's crowd doesn't care if their children get deadly VPDs or spread them to even more fragile children. And we know more about herd immunity and necessary percentages. And the autism thing has been debunked.

AND if there was an autism link, during an actual epidemic, why do people think autism is worse than sickness, permanent damage, or death?

Who are these people??

Signed,

90s anti/selective vaxxer whose children were immediately, fully vaccinated as soon as the Wakefield thing was debunked. (Edit: I became "anti/selective" because we were working with actual autism diagnoses at the time of the Wakefield hysteria, and we did have some vax reactions that made us want to do one at a time, at least. We continued that policy even though we eventually got everyone fully vaxed. So I was never an ideological vax hater - we were just unsure what we were dealing with, and in the process of spacing out the overload we stumbled into anti-vax world and camped awhile.) 

yes, I think things have changed with a new generation of parents.   I had no idea that some (several?) of today's anti-vaxers don't care about fragile children.   

I was a delayed vaxer (and selective once some of the newer ones came out - let the older kids decide for themselves).    I never heard about vaxing causing autism until most of my kids were already born and vaxed.  But, I was always uncomfortable with bundled vaccines starting pre-6month old.  Back then you could get them mostly individually. Can you still do that today?? I don't know.  We'd started with the common ones early and then slowly add later.  Usually we were caught up with all boosters well before school age.  But, you're right, we knew a lot less back then (pre-internet).   I was also the weird parent who avoided having my kids constantly on antibiotics, unless it was strep.   Now, my grandkids have deal with illnesses without antibiotics.  Their doctors are very resistant to giving them out (but that's a different topic).   We did try to educate ourselves to the best of our ability and try to parent carefully.  

 

[SamanthaCarter]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

 

Some also thought the diseases were “no big deal,” either because they believed their super-healthy, sugar-free, crunchy kids would effectively fight the virus and thus, symptoms would be minor, or because possibly in some instances, they did not understand how devastating things like pertussis can actually be. 

This is mostly what I saw. 

I do have some sympathy toward non-Vaxxers. But the ones I’ve known have been more the delayed vax types. I do think we do too much too fast with babies, and a few unneccesary ones. 

[DesertBlossom]

44 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I wonder how many vaccinated kids grow up to be antivaxxers?

They are more accurately called ex-vaxxers. A friend of mine lost her baby after his full CDC-recommended 2 month vaccines. She receives nothing but vitriol for not vaccinating her other children. You'd think she'd at least get some thanks for her child's sacrifice for the "herd."

[DesertBlossom]

2 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

We chose a delayed/slow vaccine schedule for one of our 5 kids and all of the others had a typical schedule. We opted for for a slow schedule for our son with autism. I knew almost after birth he had autism and my pediatrician thought I was crazy. At 15 months after the MMR vaccine we had alot of regression. So much so our pediatrician became concerned. I remember telling him I did not believe it was vax induced but that the inflammation caused from the vaccine led to some regressive symptoms. He quickly got us connected with an in house therapist who started work with him weekly. We have continued to notice that after each vaccine, even to this day he has a tough time for a bit after. Usually just a couple of weeks. He does this when he is sick too unless it is a fever and then he seems really tuned in. It is interesting. Despite all of this we still vaccinate to include flu every year. I think a slower schedule is a great compromise. I think opting out of vaccines should only be for those kids with allergies that will harm them substantially if they get them (I know a family like this). Otherwise healthy kids should get them for the health of our country. 

This blows my mind. If it were me, and my health, and I required therapy to recover and regain skills lost from every vaccine I received, I would stop vaccinating. Your child is obviously more susceptible to vaccine injury than most and is the definition of someone who shouldn't be vaccinated.

Edited February 11, 2019 by DesertBlossom

[LucyStoner]

6 hours ago, maize said:

Do many anti-vaxxers think healthy living will prevent their children from contracting disease? That's not a point of view I have encountered. 

2

 

I have encountered that attitude quite a bit, even from at least one poster on this board.  The line of thinking being that they are building a healthier immune system from choices they deem healthier.  

[Pen]

@maize Thanks!  What about Queen Elizabeth dying of Quinsy ?  Can you turn your excellent explanatory skills to that?  I had heard she died of probable heavy metal poisoning.  Maybe lead or arsenic from face whitening creams?

It seems curious that Parker had a mum who was so against vaccinations — and yet that she was treated with so much antibiotic as to develop antibiotic resistant tonsil  infection.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Pen

[AbcdeDooDah]

If anti-vaxxers dont care about fragile children,  then you can say the same thing about every single adult who does not make sure they are still covered and get the required boosters. I'm willing to bet that's a large number. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

yes, I think things have changed with a new generation of parents.   I had no idea that some (several?) of today's anti-vaxers don't care about fragile children.   

I was a delayed vaxer (and selective once some of the newer ones came out - let the older kids decide for themselves).    I never heard about vaxing causing autism until most of my kids were already born and vaxed.  But, I was always uncomfortable with bundled vaccines starting pre-6month old.  Back then you could get them mostly individually. Can you still do that today?? I don't know.  We'd started with the common ones early and then slowly add later.  Usually we were caught up with all boosters well before school age.  But, you're right, we knew a lot less back then (pre-internet).   I was also the weird parent who avoided having my kids constantly on antibiotics, unless it was strep.   Now, my grandkids have deal with illnesses without antibiotics.  Their doctors are very resistant to giving them out (but that's a different topic).   We did try to educate ourselves to the best of our ability and try to parent carefully.  

 

I delayed/selectively vaxxed my two boys. (They were born in ‘99 and ‘04, which was in the midst of all the hub-bub.) I even managed to find a pediatrician who tended to be against the CDC schedule herself. (Allegedly, one of her own children was totally unvaxxed.) At one point, I discussed breaking down the MMR into component vaccines, but she did not recommend it. She said she felt this was a worse idea because it isn’t the viral load that causes adverse reactions, it is the solution and additives. So, by breaking out the MMR, you would expose your child to the components three times instead of one; six times instead of two. I thought that made an awfully good point. 

I have since heard that singular vaccines are not even made anymore. 

My mind began to change on this subject when my youngest was a baby. In part, I started to see the possibility that I had been scared by a load of bunk. But also, I remember when some of the measels outbreaks happened and I began to think, “If an outbreak occurs where we live, it is going to be in a homeschooling community...I would bet money on it.” I knew several anti-vaxxers in our co-op and it worried me. 

Additionally, I remember one winter my son got Roseola at Christmas and, before we knew he had it, he had played with his little cousins and there was a brand new baby in the family. One of his cousins got Roseola, too, though the baby did not. It was not serious, but it made me think about how horrible it would be if it were a serious illness and my child spread it to his cousins by being unvaccinated. It just scared me to think of what could have happened. That experience was pretty much the end of my reservations about vaccinating. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Dd lucked out with her smallpox vax. She needed to fly that afternoon, so talked the corpsman into giving her the vax before lunch, though she was at the end of the line. She is so happy that she did--the folks after lunch got a hot batch, getting REALLY sick, with now HUGE smallpox scars. Hers is fairly large as it is. 

I didn’t think anybody got small pox vax anymore. Is this currently true for military? 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

27 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

They are more accurately called ex-vaxxers. A friend of mine lost her baby after his full CDC-recommended 2 month vaccines. She receives nothing but vitriol for not vaccinating her other children. You'd think she'd at least get some thanks for her child's sacrifice for the "herd."

 

I am very sorry for your friend's loss. If I heard of this terrible event, I would not assume that the vaccines had caused the death of the baby, unless the mother told me that her doctor had confirmed that. I would not consider thanking someone for sacrificing their child to the herd, because that is, I'm sorry, a crazy line of thought. The mother thought she was protecting her child, immunization is considered to be a good thing generally, and casual passersby to their lives do not know for themselves that the child was killed by vaccines. None of this reduces my sympathy but if others are not sympathetic, there are a lot of horrible people in the world. I'm sorry.

 

22 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

This blows my mind. If it were me, and my health, and I required therapy to recover and regain skills lost from every vaccine I received, I would stop vaccinating. Your child is obviously more susceptible to vaccine injury than most and is the definition of someone who shouldn't be vaccinated.

 

If you've spent much time in children's hospitals (I have), there are a lot of children who cannot receive vaccines at all, but there are many, many more who have serious reactions that can be weathered - and are still less dangerous than the VPD, *for that particular child.* If you don't know the child's health situation or the reason why the pp chose to continue with the vax program (which reason is probably neither blind faith nor stupidity), you can't really define her child's status as "the definition of someone who shouldn't be vaccinated." 

 

5 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

If anti-vaxxers dont care about fragile children,  then you can say the same thing about every single adult who does not make sure they are still covered and get the required boosters. I'm willing to bet that's a large number. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, this thread just jumped the shark. There should not be a debate about the general, overwhelmingly positive goodness of immunization when a global measles epidemic is in progress. It's 2019. We are not still debating whether vaxes are generally good or generally useless or bad. On an individual level, they may be recommended or not, but that's a decision for parents and their health care provider. Not grounds for, "I knew a kid who couldn't get this one shot, so I think my neurotypical, healthy child is not going to get those death jabs; she can probably weather encephalitis or diptheria or even smallpox if it comes around again." 

[AbcdeDooDah]

8 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, this thread just jumped the shark. There should not be a debate about the general, overwhelmingly positive goodness of immunization when a global measles epidemic is in progress. It's 2019. We are not still debating whether vaxes are generally good or generally useless or bad. On an individual level, they may be recommended or not, but that's a decision for parents and their health care provider. Not grounds for, "I knew a kid who couldn't get this one shot, so I think my neurotypical, healthy child is not going to get those death jabs; she can probably weather encephalitis or diptheria or even smallpox if it comes around again." 

Not sure where I said anything of the sort. If an adult has not been titred and boostered they should not be blaming only unvaccinated kids for the diseases reemerging.

 I was vaxxed.  My kids are vaxxed. It is possible to see more than one side of an argument. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by AbcdeDooDah

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

I didn’t think anybody got small pox vax anymore. Is this currently true for military? 

I guess my experience was over 10 years ago, but they gave anyone deploying to a combat zone a smallpox vax in case of bio warfare. They had stopped doing it but after 9/11 and the Anthrax scare they started again. At least that's how it was explained to me.

[EmseB]

To tack on, it looks like they still do it:

 

https://health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Health-Readiness/Immunization-Healthcare/Vaccine-Preventable-Diseases/Smallpox/Smallpox-FAQs#Policy

[Guest]

Just now, EmseB said:

I guess my experience was over 10 years ago, but they gave anyone deploying to a combat zone a smallpox vax in case of bio warfare. They had stopped doing it but after 9/11 and the Anthrax scare they started again. At least that's how it was explained to me.

Boy. That sux. Although clearly the disease would suck worse, but still...hats off to military personnel. One more awful thing that’s just part of the job. 

[Pen]

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

e point, I discussed breaking down the MMR into component vaccines, but she did not recommend it. She said she felt this was a worse idea because it isn’t the viral load that causes adverse reactions, it is the solution and additives. So, by breaking out the MMR, you would expose your child to the components three times instead of one; six times instead of two. I thought that made an awfully good point. 

 

 

As things exist irl, I think that is an interesting point to consider—and in any case at least in USA we cannot get The Monovalent individual vaccines.

 

However, I’d like to see safer vaccines without the stuff in them (solution and additives or whatever) causing some of the reactions. And also Monovalent vaccination options, in case multiple viral load at once Is also a problem for some people.  

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

As things exist irl, I think that is an interesting point to consider—and in any case at least in USA we cannot get The Monovalent individual vaccines.

 

However, I’d like to see safer vaccines without the stuff in them (solution and additives or whatever) causing some of the reactions. And also Monovalent vaccination options, in case multiple viral load at once Is also a problem for some people.  

 

True, but isn’t that why the vaccine companies (Merck, I think) removed Thimerasol (probably spelling that wrong) from MMR? So many activists were saying it was mercury that caused their child’s autism, so Merck removed mercury. 

I’m all for making them as safe as possible, but I guess at some point, there’s got to be some sort of solution to get the viral load into the body where it does it’s job. Although personally, I am totally in favor of Vaccine Chewable Gummies! Can we work on that, Merck? 

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah, as far as I know smallpox is recommended if you’re spending time in certain parts of the world but it is almost unheard of in developed economies.

Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide.

Any number of government or other entities could have stored samples though, raising the spector of smallpox use as a biological warfare agent. That is why military vaccinations are done.

[Pen]

Smallpox is officially eradicated, but there have been concerns about it making a return from corpses in Siberia (perhaps other places too, but this happened with anthrax apparently in Siberia, so is of concern) that could have preserved smallpox — in addition to terrorism possibilities. 

 

[maize]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

@maize Thanks!  What about Queen Elizabeth dying of Quinsy ?  Can you turn your excellent explanatory skills to that?  I had heard she died of probable heavy metal poisoning.  Maybe lead or arsenic from face whitening creams?

It seems curious that Parker had a mum who was so against vaccinations — and yet that she was treated with so much antibiotic as to develop antibiotic resistant tonsil  infection.

 

Seems the cause of Elizabeth's death was never ascertained so remains a source of speculation. She did have signs of infection, maybe the "almonds" in her throat refers to swollen lymph nodes?

"Elizabeth had caught cold in early January which had turned to bronchitis.  On January 21 the Court moved to Richmond. The records we have from this time period are pretty extensive from contemporaries’ writings.  William Camden was given the Queen’s Rolls, Memorials and Records by William Cecil to use in compiling an historical account of the reign of Queen Elizabeth.  He wanted to do her justice, he wanted to obey Cecil and he wanted to tell the truth as he attested on the third page of ‘The Author to the Reader’ note.  A noble ambition and one that is hard to argue against.  We have from him that in the beginning of Elizabeth’s illness the “Almonds in her Throat swelled, and soon abated again; then her Appetite failed by degrees; and withal she gave herself over wholly to Melancholy, and seemed to be much troubled with a peculiar Grief for some Reason or other” (Camden 659)."

https://elizregina.com/tag/quinsy/

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Not sure where I said anything of the sort. If an adult has not been titred and boostered they should not be blaming only unvaccinated kids for the diseases reemerging.

 I was vaxxed.  My kids are vaxxed. It is possible to see more than one side of an argument. 

 

I think the difference is that most adults who don't get boosters aren't deliberatly making a decision not to be protected - they may be lazy but often they don't even think about needing them.

That's a really different issue than making a decision to not do it, and probably a lot easier to solve.

[AbcdeDooDah]

9 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think the difference is that most adults who don't get boosters aren't deliberatly making a decision not to be protected - they may be lazy but often they don't even think about needing them.

That's a really different issue than making a decision to not do it, and probably a lot easier to solve.

 Awareness needs to include adults then, yes?

I'm not so sure about not being deliberate when I've heard excuses like, "My insurance won't pay for them." They're not willing to put their money where their mouth is. 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by AbcdeDooDah

[Liz CA]

This has always been a "damned if you do / damned if you don't" thing to me. I was vaccinated for everything under the sun as was available back then. I had a raging case of measles when I was six that I can actually vividly remember. I should be immune to measles.

My son had selective vaccinations including measles but since these outbreaks in various parts of the country, I have been wondering if his shots are still enough protection and if he is actually immune like I am. Dh just said he cannot remember having had measles but remembers having had chicken pox.

Glad I don't have to make decisions for other people anymore. He can decide all this for himself now and I decide for myself.

[Bluegoat]

36 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

 Awareness needs to include adults then, yes?

I'm not so sure about not being deliberate when I've heard excuses like, "My insurance won't pay for them." They're not willing to put their money where their mouth is. 

 

 

Yes, there are a number of things that can be done pretty easily to get adults vaccinated.  Checking on status at certain check-ups, for example.  Covering the cost would also be a significant one.

But I am not sure how that is not completely different than someone purposefully refusing to be vaccinated because they think it is a bad idea.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My doctors have reevaluated my vaccination status as an adult. Some (like chicken pox) were not needed because I had it as a child. Some, like small pox, I had the vaccine but it isn’t needed anymore. And some have been updated. 

[nixpix5]

3 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

This blows my mind. If it were me, and my health, and I required therapy to recover and regain skills lost from every vaccine I received, I would stop vaccinating. Your child is obviously more susceptible to vaccine injury than most and is the definition of someone who shouldn't be vaccinated.

It is the exact same response he gets after getting sick with a bad head cold or any other virus. I can only imagine what getting an active virus like measles or chickenpox would do to him then. He is lovely and splendid once the inflammation goes away and with each progressive year, his recovery is shorter, lighter and less extreme. I actually think the vaccine inflammation in small doses has allowed his body to become better capable of responding effectively to the inflammation over time. He went from non verbal, no eye contact and with a diagnosis of what they believed would be significant effects of autism to being a highly verbal, highly intelligent and somewhat quirky little 8 year old. His doctors have all been floored by him and knowing what I know about brain inflammation (I previously worked in research and DH still is a neurobiologist) we both believe our choice was a good one. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

28 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, there are a number of things that can be done pretty easily to get adults vaccinated.  Checking on status at certain check-ups, for example.  Covering the cost would also be a significant one.

But I am not sure how that is not completely different than someone purposefully refusing to be vaccinated because they think it is a bad idea.

I'm not sure that it really matters if they are both capable of spreading the same disease. 

[AK_Mom4]

Hopefully I don’t get chased off the board for this.... but I received all my vaccines at age 18 when I left for college.   I had one dose of polio vaccine as a child when they had a polio scare, but that’s it.  Mostly a mix of money, timing and government conspiracy theories, I suspect.  

I don’t recommend it as a Fun Time, but better late than never in my case.