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measles outbreak...

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Education is also incredibly important.  We killed three suspected rabid (wild) critters near our farm in 2018.  None had suspected human or tame critter contact, so we just buried them and warned all the neighbors.  However, before we shot the last one (groundhog) I took a video of him stumbling around so I could show our new neighbors with 4 young children.  With rabies in our area it's incredibly important that kids know not to help the "poor wounded animal," esp if it happens to a feral cat or something they think is tame and in need of help.  I'm not sure if the parents had ever seen anything like it either.

I've since shown the video at school too.  Education is important.  Rabies is deadly.  Keeping pets vaxed is important.  Knowing to seek help is too.  Folks don't know what they haven't been exposed to.  Share when we can.

I'm still 100% in favor of vaxes for those who are able to have them, esp for folks who choose public schools and similar and even more especially when there are epidemics about.  Eradicate the diseases (or help our bodies fend off tetanus/flu).

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1 hour ago, creekland said:

 

But if the anti-vax folks convince the masses that vaccines are evil, it's not such a hyperbole.  Yes, we have better medical care now - the same medical care that saved the lad with tetanus, but do we really want to count on that when there's a safe, better alternative?  Airplanes and cars.  The car is more familiar and one feels "safe" (at least until there's an accident), but the airplane is far and wide the safer alternative even with two recent crashes in the world.

And may the newer tb vax in the works be truly better than the current one.  Any killer disease eradicated is a good thing.

 

There are people in USA,  particularly in rural and inner city areas who don’t have good access to vaccinations,  even though they aren’t against them— cost, distance, problems with missing work etc.  Making vaccinations easier for those, adults as well as children, who would like to get them or who perhaps just aren’t thinking about it one way or the other, would be helpful.  IMO 

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1 hour ago, creekland said:

Education is also incredibly important.  We killed three suspected rabid (wild) critters near our farm in 2018.  None had suspected human or tame critter contact, so we just buried them and warned all the neighbors.  However, before we shot the last one (groundhog) I took a video of him stumbling around so I could show our new neighbors with 4 young children.  With rabies in our area it's incredibly important that kids know not to help the "poor wounded animal," esp if it happens to a feral cat or something they think is tame and in need of help.  I'm not sure if the parents had ever seen anything like it either.

I've since shown the video at school too.  Education is important.  Rabies is deadly.  Keeping pets vaxed is important.  Knowing to seek help is too.  Folks don't know what they haven't been exposed to.  Share when we can

 

I agree.  I shared the video of the rabid cat here or on some thread because I thought seeing what it looks like is important.  I definitely think I or my dc could easily see an animal like that and want to help it with out knowing that presentation like that can be rabies.  

1 hour ago, creekland said:

I'm still 100% in favor of vaxes for those who are able to have them, esp for folks who choose public schools and similar and even more especially when there are epidemics about.  Eradicate the diseases (or help our bodies fend off tetanus/flu).

 

I’m 100% in favor of reaching out to more people who don’t have good access to vaccinations to help them to be able to get them rather than resorting to forcing people who are against it, in most situations.  An epidemic outbreak has always presented a legal exception .

There seems to be a presumption in this thread that the only people who don’t vaccinate are “anti vax “ or unable due to health (or religious?)

Wuite a few people have access trouble,

Here’s one discussion of one example

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648888/

 

 

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5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I’m 100% in favor of reaching out to more people who don’t have good access to vaccinations to help them to be able to get them rather than resorting to forcing people who are against it, in most situations.  An epidemic outbreak has always presented a legal exception .

There seems to be a presumption in this thread that the only people who don’t vaccinate are “anti vax “ or unable due to health (or religious?)

Wuite a few people have access trouble,

Here’s one discussion of one example

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648888/

 

 

I can absolutely agree with that. When my oldest was about a year old, I had a big gap in health insurance and no access to any sort of “clinic”. He fell behind until I simultaneously moved and got reinsured. That was not anti-vax!

While important, those are not the people I’m seeing online, freaking out about their rights.  What I am seeing is people I know and genuinely like spewing outright conspiracy theories. (They’re using the word conspiracy, not me!)

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34 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I can absolutely agree with that. When my oldest was about a year old, I had a big gap in health insurance and no access to any sort of “clinic”. He fell behind until I simultaneously moved and got reinsured. That was not anti-vax!

While important, those are not the people I’m seeing online, freaking out about their rights.  What I am seeing is people I know and genuinely like spewing outright conspiracy theories. (They’re using the word conspiracy, not me!)

But the reality is these are about 1-2pc if the population.  We can still maintain herd immunity if everyone else vaccinated. We probably come across more of them because of homeschooling I guess.

also I think there’s an element of the more you try to force people the more they dig in the heels. Really the best way to get them all to vaccinate would be to threaten to make it illegal!

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9 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But the reality is these are about 1-2pc if the population.  We can still maintain herd immunity if everyone else vaccinated. We probably come across more of them because of homeschooling I guess.

also I think there’s an element of the more you try to force people the more they dig in the heels. Really the best way to get them all to vaccinate would be to threaten to make it illegal!

Without taking the time to look up stats, I can tell you that it’s most definitely not 1-2% in MY population - the people my kids are around on a regular basis. Perhaps it is where they go to work or take college classes, but not where they spend a lot of time with other homeschoolers.  Almost 50% is a reasonable estimate in our homeschool community. I’d say 30% of members I’m FB friends with are posting anti-vax stuff, while I’m confident there are more like me who have at least one kid who isn’t fully UTD, but don’t post about it.

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10 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Without taking the time to look up stats, I can tell you that it’s most definitely not 1-2% in MY population - the people my kids are around on a regular basis. Perhaps it is where they go to work or take college classes, but not where they spend a lot of time with other homeschoolers.  Almost 50% is a reasonable estimate in our homeschool community. I’d say 30% of members I’m FB friends with are posting anti-vax stuff, while I’m confident there are more like me who have at least one kid who isn’t fully UTD, but don’t post about it.

Article I posted has the stats.  This is for Australia though, US could be quite different.  You do tend to have more conspiracy theorists and prepper types I think.

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25 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But the reality is these are about 1-2pc if the population.  We can still maintain herd immunity if everyone else vaccinated. We probably come across more of them because of homeschooling I guess.

also I think there’s an element of the more you try to force people the more they dig in the heels. Really the best way to get them all to vaccinate would be to threaten to make it illegal!

Maybe in Aus but not in certain states in the US that permit “philosophical exemption.” The number of people in Texas a year or two ago claiming philosophical exemption was 57,000. (This was in an article I think linked to this thread but I doubt I can find it now.) 57,000 kids, probably many of them homeschooled, is not a tiny amount and Measles and Pertussis require high vax rates to hold. When a person is coming down with measles, they don’t know it’s measles for 3-4 days. 

So to me, it isn’t “fair” (sorry for the jeuvenille terminology) for the philosophical objectors to threaten the population that did vaccinate, or would but kids are too little, or can’t due to medical reasons. IMO, we cannot wait for an outbreak in some area before we try to close the barn doors. 

Also, I’m not sure exactly what we’re talking about when we say forced. Is it forced if you can’t register your kid to school or camp? Is it forced if you can’t get social services like welfare or supplemental nutrition, until your kids have been vaxxed? Is it forced if there’s a decree from local govt that “due to an outbreak of measles cases, we are requiring unvaccinated people from going out in public.” How is that even enforced? 

Your last line does make me chuckle. 

The book I’m reading right now (called Nudge) speaks of the need for “libertarian paternalism” in govt and authority bodies. What the authors say about this, I find true: pure libertarianism does not really work, because people do not necessarily choose well simply because they are free to do so. I find this true! So, an ideal program with any goal is to have a degree of freedom (because you are right - people resist being coerced), but with features in place that make it easier for people to choose well. So, at a public park, dogs are not banned because they leave piles of poo, but the park might have little baggie dispensers and signs properly marketed to induce people to pick up their dog’s piles. Also, if the social tide turns to pro-clean parks, positive peer pressure will also induce more people to pickup after Fido. (In my region, this is true with public smoking. Public smoking is banned in a lot of places, but the social vibe is probably even more Relevant.) 

IMO, the ideal vaccination policy is like this too. The default is to get your kids vaccinated according to the govt schedule. If you want or need to participate in any social (govt sponsored) programs, inlcuding school, camps, social services), you must show proof of vaccination. If you cannot vaccinate, you have to secure a doctor-issued waiver or a waiver by a religious leader like a Rabbi. No “philosophical objections.” 

I am very much in favor of free or reduced cost vaccination available everywhere, but this does not increase compliance to the degree one expects. People often do not value things they can get for free. There is also a propensity to put off something you can get at any time for free. All fall and winter, there are flu shots available where I live for free, but lots of people still won’t get them. People tend towards inertia. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Article I posted has the stats.  This is for Australia though, US could be quite different.  You do tend to have more conspiracy theorists and prepper types I think.

I wasn’t aiming to dispute your specific stats, just inform you of mine. 
For whatever it’s worth, preppers and anti-vaxxers don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

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5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I wasn’t aiming to dispute your specific stats, just inform you of mine. 
For whatever it’s worth, preppers and anti-vaxxers don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

Exactly. When one is fleeing the zombie apocalyse, having your entire group come down with measles or whatever preventable disease we're discussing is a Really Bad Thing.*

 

*No disrespect intended to either preppers or parents who have dealt with their kids' bad reaction to vaccines.

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14 hours ago, Pen said:

 

There are people in USA,  particularly in rural and inner city areas who don’t have good access to vaccinations,  even though they aren’t against them— cost, distance, problems with missing work etc.  Making vaccinations easier for those, adults as well as children, who would like to get them or who perhaps just aren’t thinking about it one way or the other, would be helpful.  IMO 

 

I agree.  I don't think there should be just one approach and expect it to work for everyone.  My preference in life is to offer incentives of various sorts and only end up with punishment if there's no other recourse.  That approach works super well for me in school.  There my view is to educate on how to review ideas/theories so more folks don't end up believing nonsense simply because they read it on the internet.

14 hours ago, Pen said:

There seems to be a presumption in this thread that the only people who don’t vaccinate are “anti vax “ or unable due to health (or religious?)

 

I don't see that presumption.  I think the anti-vax folks are just the ones who turn people off due to their faulty reasoning, and esp in times of epidemics, how much at risk they put everyone else.  I think everyone understands those who have real health issues.  I think everyone would want to help those who have other obstacles (like cost or access).  Some states are better at that than others.  Plenty of places offer free flu shots.  My state offers free recommended vaccines at our county health office if one doesn't have insurance to cover them.  There's still the issue of getting there.  I know my school tries to help people when they see families in need.

Otherwise, I know plenty who get annoyed when someone with the flu shows up to work.  They are only spreading their germs and no one I know wants to catch it.  It's that same annoyance with those who chose not to get vaxes when something like measles is around.  The underlying (often spoken out loud) comment is STAY HOME if you end up sick or think you might have been exposed.  With measles... really, it's not that tough to get a vaccine if one wants it.  As Quill pointed out, the problem with many is inertia.

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Article I posted has the stats.  This is for Australia though, US could be quite different.  You do tend to have more conspiracy theorists and prepper types I think.

 

The general USA rate of vaccination refusal is approx 3.3% iirc.  

I don’t know if that includes refusal for medical reasons or people who are “selective “ vaccinators .  

Some vaccinations like yearly influenza are iirc only recommended for certain people/groups in AUstralia if they are considered high risk.  Whereas in my area they seem to be recommended yearly to nearly everyone.  

Some geographic areas have higher rates of vaccination refusal.  Some groups, such as homeschoolers apparently also have higher vaccination refusal rates. So people posting here may be meeting far more vaccination refusers than average statistically.  

I am in a state with very easy to opt out of vaccination laws/rules even for public school kids. Nonetheless  my county is reported  to have a 95% vaccination rate, and most of my state does not have high vaccination refusal rate. OTOH the city of Portland, Oregon (and the County of Multnomah)  which is the most populous city in my state, is one of the low vaccination rate areas in USA.  The highest refusal rate by county iirc is 14.2% for Nassau County,  New York.

 

The red spots on the map that may link below ? are apparently supposed to indicate low vaccination rate counties in USA.  Based iirc on kindergarteners who had incomplete or no vaccination in 2017. 

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1002578.g003

(the map doesn’t include Nassau NY, and perhaps not Clark , WA perhaps due to year being looked at, or even more likely imo, K students versus overall rates ...  iirc Multnomah and Clark were both around 76% of population vaccinated when this was in news due to the measles outbreak )

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10 hours ago, Quill said:

Maybe in Aus but not in certain states in the US that permit “philosophical exemption.” The number of people in Texas a year or two ago claiming philosophical exemption was 57,000. (This was in an article I think linked to this thread but I doubt I can find it now.) 57,000 kids, probably many of them homeschooled, is not a tiny amount and Measles and Pertussis require high vax rates to hold. When a person is coming down with measles, they don’t know it’s measles for 3-4 days. 

So to me, it isn’t “fair” (sorry for the jeuvenille terminology) for the philosophical objectors to threaten the population that did vaccinate, or would but kids are too little, or can’t due to medical reasons. IMO, we cannot wait for an outbreak in some area before we try to close the barn doors. 

Also, I’m not sure exactly what we’re talking about when we say forced. Is it forced if you can’t register your kid to school or camp? Is it forced if you can’t get social services like welfare or supplemental nutrition, until your kids have been vaxxed? Is it forced if there’s a decree from local govt that “due to an outbreak of measles cases, we are requiring unvaccinated people from going out in public.” How is that even enforced? 

Your last line does make me chuckle. 

The book I’m reading right now (called Nudge) speaks of the need for “libertarian paternalism” in govt and authority bodies. What the authors say about this, I find true: pure libertarianism does not really work, because people do not necessarily choose well simply because they are free to do so. I find this true! So, an ideal program with any goal is to have a degree of freedom (because you are right - people resist being coerced), but with features in place that make it easier for people to choose well. So, at a public park, dogs are not banned because they leave piles of poo, but the park might have little baggie dispensers and signs properly marketed to induce people to pick up their dog’s piles. Also, if the social tide turns to pro-clean parks, positive peer pressure will also induce more people to pickup after Fido. (In my region, this is true with public smoking. Public smoking is banned in a lot of places, but the social vibe is probably even more Relevant.) 

IMO, the ideal vaccination policy is like this too. The default is to get your kids vaccinated according to the govt schedule. If you want or need to participate in any social (govt sponsored) programs, inlcuding school, camps, social services), you must show proof of vaccination. If you cannot vaccinate, you have to secure a doctor-issued waiver or a waiver by a religious leader like a Rabbi. No “philosophical objections.” 

I am very much in favor of free or reduced cost vaccination available everywhere, but this does not increase compliance to the degree one expects. People often do not value things they can get for free. There is also a propensity to put off something you can get at any time for free. All fall and winter, there are flu shots available where I live for free, but lots of people still won’t get them. People tend towards inertia. 

 

So the population of Texas is apparently 29,000,000.  Which still puts the conscientious objection refusers at less than 2pc.  You need 95pc for herd immunity so I guess it depends then what number of people can’t be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons as to whether that’s achievable.

the other part of that is it may be more of a problem when there’s a cluster effect.  Anti vaxxers tend to hang out together meaning you might have a bubble of the population where there is a really low vaccination rate.  That’s probably more risky than if it’s evenly distributed.

i don’t have a problem with the gentle nudge approach.  We’ve had that for years - a register, reminder letters, payments, school vaccination programs.  However I feel that Australia is moving more toward the cattle prod approach... making it illegal for unvaccinated kids to attend preschool, removing the conscientious objection option, making a doctors opinion on whether or not an individual child should be vaccinated invalid, cutting significant amounts of social security money to unvaccinated kids.  These are all coercive measures and they have a disproportionate effect on low income earners.  

A doctor issued waiver is no long accepted in some states and you can’t be a conscientious objector at all, religious leader waiver or not.

 

Edited by Ausmumof3
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9 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I wasn’t aiming to dispute your specific stats, just inform you of mine. 
For whatever it’s worth, preppers and anti-vaxxers don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

Hmm interesting.  I guess it depends whether your prepping for the zombie apocalypse or a government takeover.  

Sorry I wasn’t meaning to be obnoxious about my stats just showing that I wasn’t making stuff up...

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3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

The general USA rate of vaccination refusal is approx 3.3% iirc.  

I don’t know if that includes refusal for medical reasons or people who are “selective “ vaccinators .  

Some vaccinations like yearly influenza are iirc only recommended for certain people/groups in AUstralia if they are considered high risk.  Whereas in my area they seem to be recommended yearly to nearly everyone.  

Some geographic areas have higher rates of vaccination refusal.  Some groups, such as homeschoolers apparently also have higher vaccination refusal rates. So people posting here may be meeting far more vaccination refusers than average statistically.  

I am in a state with very easy to opt out of vaccination laws/rules even for public school kids. Nonetheless  my county is reported  to have a 95% vaccination rate, and most of my state does not have high vaccination refusal rate. OTOH the city of Portland, Oregon (and the County of Multnomah)  which is the most populous city in my state, is one of the low vaccination rate areas in USA.  The highest refusal rate by county iirc is 14.2% for Nassau County,  New York.

 

The local coverage here is quoting BCBS saying that the higher rates of refusal are numbers capturing  people missing well child appointments and not being on schedule.  The dc are getting the vaxx, but late.  The refusers have gone from 2.5% for those born in 2010 to 4.2% for those born in 2013 in the NY area.  However, some of the private schools have far less children vaxxed.

The general issue here is people traveling in countries where there is a measles outbreak or the vax rate is very low, bringing the disease home.  The schools here that have had outbreaks are less than 85% immunized.  Whooping cough is here too, but its not getting the press that measles is.

Edited by HeighHo
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58 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

The local coverage here is quoting BCBS saying that the higher rates of refusal are numbers capturing  people missing well child appointments and not being on schedule.  The dc are getting the vaxx, but late.  The refusers have gone from 2.5% for those born in 2010 to 4.2% for those born in 2013 in the NY area.  However, some of the private schools have far less children vaxxed.

The general issue here is people traveling in countries where there is a measles outbreak or the vax rate is very low, bringing the disease home.  The schools here that have had outbreaks are less than 85% immunized.  Whooping cough is here too, but its not getting the press that measles is.

That refusal rate starts to put herd immunity at risk for sure if you have even 1pc immunocompromised or unable to vaccinate for other medical reasons.  Unless that figure already includes people who refuse for legit medical reasons.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

That refusal rate starts to put herd immunity at risk for sure if you have even 1pc immunocompromised or unable to vaccinate for other medical reasons.  Unless that figure already includes people who refuse for legit medical reasons.

 

It depends on if they are all in the same localized herd. Public schools here are in the high 90%iles for vax rates, private schools vary. 

 Its also the case that the herd can be immunized sufficiently, but the disease is present in a high enough level/long enough contact that it overcomes the immunization as happened in 2010 with mumps in some private schools in NYC.  My dc had two cases of measles in his kindergarten, all 25 children had been vaxxed. One child brought it in, and the kid on his right got it, but the kid on his left didn't. Seems to be some variation in protection. 

I'm finding people don't understand what immune compromised means, and its to the point I can't be around some elderly diabetics as the ones I know dont understand they are susceptible to infection and won't get seen by the doctor for lingering coughs. Since I'm immune comprimised, and not rich, I don't want the complications and cost resulting from acquiring their whooping cough or pneumonia.  I'd feel a lot better if people would stop coughing into the air, but it seems the ignorance of airborne transmission of disease is wide spread in my area. 

Edited by HeighHo
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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

So the population of Texas is apparently 29,000,000.  Which still puts the conscientious objection refusers at less than 2pc.  You need 95pc for herd immunity so I guess it depends then what number of people can’t be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons as to whether that’s achievable.

the other part of that is it may be more of a problem when there’s a cluster effect.  Anti vaxxers tend to hang out together meaning you might have a bubble of the population where there is a really low vaccination rate.  That’s probably more risky than if it’s evenly distributed.

i don’t have a problem with the gentle nudge approach.  We’ve had that for years - a register, reminder letters, payments, school vaccination programs.  However I feel that Australia is moving more toward the cattle prod approach... making it illegal for unvaccinated kids to attend preschool, removing the conscientious objection option, making a doctors opinion on whether or not an individual child should be vaccinated invalid, cutting significant amounts of social security money to unvaccinated kids.  These are all coercive measures and they have a disproportionate effect on low income earners.  

A doctor issued waiver is no long accepted in some states and you can’t be a conscientious objector at all, religious leader waiver or not.

 

This is more my thinking. Those 57,000 are likely to be largely in a few pockets. (The map linked by @Pen above does show this.) It bugs me that homeschoolers are a likely cohort for anti-vaxxers. When I did eventually catch my youngest up on MMR after delaying for several years, this was the catalyst for me. There were big outbreaks in a couple of states and I definitely thought, if that happens where we live, it is going to be in the homeschool community. 

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11 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is more my thinking. Those 57,000 are likely to be largely in a few pockets. (The map linked by @Pen above does show this.) It bugs me that homeschoolers are a likely cohort for anti-vaxxers. When I did eventually catch my youngest up on MMR after delaying for several years, this was the catalyst for me. There were big outbreaks in a couple of states and I definitely thought, if that happens where we live, it is going to be in the homeschool community. 

I think it just goes with the territory.  Homeschoolers are self selecting for people who are willing to go against the status quo and also for kids with autism or other special needs.  Of course if you have a kid with autism you are going to pay more attention to someone saying vaccination may be linked to autism even if that’s later discredited.  And we also are more likely to have immune compromised kids (safer to homeschool) who legitimately can’t be vaccinated for whatever reason.

in my (purely anecdotal) experience though homeschoolers seem to be more likely or willing to stay home with sick kids than families with two working parents and kids in school.  So hopefully that acts as a slight counterbalance to the increased risk from non vaccinators.

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48 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is more my thinking. Those 57,000 are likely to be largely in a few pockets. (The map linked by @Pen above does show this.) It bugs me that homeschoolers are a likely cohort for anti-vaxxers. When I did eventually catch my youngest up on MMR after delaying for several years, this was the catalyst for me. There were big outbreaks in a couple of states and I definitely thought, if that happens where we live, it is going to be in the homeschool community. 

 

One of the Tx counties is Travis, where Austin, the state capitol is.  I don’t know a lot about how lawmaking in Tx works.  If the government people there in Austin don’t like the way the conscientious objection to vaccination law is working, leading to potential high risk for them and their families, can they change that relatively easily?  Or is it a matter for vote by the registered voters of the state? Or...?  

 

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10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

One of the Tx counties is Travis, where Austin, the state capitol is.  I don’t know a lot about how lawmaking in Tx works.  If the government people there in Austin don’t like the way the conscientious objection to vaccination law is working, leading to potential high risk for them and their families, can they change that relatively easily?  Or is it a matter for vote by the registered voters of the state? Or...?  

 

Ha! The state lege...vote to take away freedom?!? In this deeply red state? Oh, no, no, no.

Yes, theoretically, the Lege could vote to end conscientious/philosophical exemptions to vaccines. In practice, schools, day cares, etc can also restrict/prevent attendance of unvaccinated children (and teachers and staff, too, I suppose) in an epidemic or emergency that is declared by the public health commissioner. 

A CO form must be signed and notarized and must be renewed every two years. 

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@brehon I think you should remove the comment on a political party as being over the edge on board rules re politics.  This thread could otherwise devolve very easily .

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On 3/30/2019 at 11:25 AM, Lady Florida. said:

This was also stupidity. It happened last year just over an hour from where I live. My heart breaks for the parents but they didn't get their son the rabies treatment because he was afraid of shots. Instead, the mother googled how to clean it. She. Googled. 

 

 

This is baffling. In elementary school, they teach the kids here not to approach bats seen on the ground, but to go get a teacher. Starting in pre-K. And the teacher makes sure it is contained and calls public health. NO ONE is bringing a sick bat home under any circumstance.

 

(PS my kids go to school in Travis County, mentioned above.)

 

ETA: Our preschool director at church remembers when she was new on the job there is was a bat on the preschool playground and her kid and a couple of other church kids that were playing with had to go get the rabies shots (luckily it was NOT during sunday school, preschool, VBS) -- this kid is now in college.  Ever since, before anyone goes out on the playground, an adult goes and checks the playground to make sure its safe to go out.  A couple of Sundays ago there was some kind of wild cat in the tree seen from our Sunday School windows, so no outside time it was!

 

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On 3/30/2019 at 3:37 PM, gardenmom5 said:

eta: speaking of racoons... the people who think they're cute and feed them.   I'm on a local wildlife FB page, and there will be people posting pictures of the racoons they regularly feed.  and the people who will attack those who post information from the rangers to DO NOT FEED RACOONS!... 

 

Which is why, when my daughter, for her "Outdoors Living" badge (I think that's the name) had to choose one optional assignment to complete and chose the "Find 5 wild animals you might encounter in the wild and roleplay how you would deal with the encounter" I made sure raccoons were on the list of 5 animals.  They are small and cute and I can easily see her wanting to get close and pet/feed.  But that's extremely dangerous!

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We don’t have rabies here.  I was watching a video of some guy trying to release a trapped raccoon and wondering why he was being so nervy then I remembered the rabies thing!  Definitely a whole different level.  Dh has been scratched by koalas a couple of times relocating them off the main road and our neighbours have fed and adopted several stray cats.  I guess it makes for a whole different dynamic around wildlife.

we do have Lyssavirus in bats though.

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32 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

We don’t have rabies here.  I was watching a video of some guy trying to release a trapped raccoon and wondering why he was being so nervy then I remembered the rabies thing!  Definitely a whole different level.  Dh has been scratched by koalas a couple of times relocating them off the main road and our neighbours have fed and adopted several stray cats.  I guess it makes for a whole different dynamic around wildlife.

we do have Lyssavirus in bats though.

  Lyssavirus (from the Greek λύσσα lyssa "rage, fury, rabies" and the Latin vīrus)[

The genus Lyssavirus includes the rabies virus traditionally associated with that disease.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

  Lyssavirus (from the Greek λύσσα lyssa "rage, fury, rabies" and the Latin vīrus)[

The genus Lyssavirus includes the rabies virus traditionally associated with that disease.

 

 

Yeah I know they are related but it can’t spread between other mammals as far as I know.  I think horses can contract it if they are grazing where bats are but it’s just not an issue with spread between mammals.  Hence the outrage when Johnny Depp thought he’d just breach quarantine rules and bring his dogs over!  There’s something like a 9month quarantine period to bring dogs into Australia

Edited to add... ok I double checked that and apparently not, but the time period for getting paperwork and vaccinations in order is that long.  It’s pretty strict anyhow...

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

We don’t have rabies here.  I was watching a video of some guy trying to release a trapped raccoon and wondering why he was being so nervy then I remembered the rabies thing!  Definitely a whole different level.  Dh has been scratched by koalas a couple of times relocating them off the main road and our neighbours have fed and adopted several stray cats.  I guess it makes for a whole different dynamic around wildlife.

we do have Lyssavirus in bats though.

Yeah but you all have all those venomous snakes. And box jellyfish. And crocodiles. How do you all function? 😄

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46 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yeah but you all have all those venomous snakes. And box jellyfish. And crocodiles. How do you all function? 😄

Well I don’t have the urge to pat the things that could kill me at least 😂

no scary jellyfish or crocs down my end of the world... snakes though is another story.

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On 3/31/2019 at 12:54 PM, Pen said:

 

I am in a state with very easy to opt out of vaccination laws/rules even for public school kids. Nonetheless  my county is reported  to have a 95% vaccination rate, and most of my state does not have high vaccination refusal rate. OTOH the city of Portland, Oregon (and the County of Multnomah)  which is the most populous city in my state, is one of the low vaccination rate areas in USA.  The highest refusal rate by county iirc is 14.2% for Nassau County,  New York.

 

The red spots on the map that may link below ? are apparently supposed to indicate low vaccination rate counties in USA.  Based iirc on kindergarteners who had incomplete or no vaccination in 2017. 

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1002578.g003

(the map doesn’t include Nassau NY, and perhaps not Clark , WA perhaps due to year being looked at, or even more likely imo, K students versus overall rates ...  iirc Multnomah and Clark were both around 76% of population vaccinated when this was in news due to the measles outbreak )

 

I'm not clear where the data about Oregon is coming from, but as far as the MMR is concerned for school age children in Multnomah county the rate of children up to date is 95% +  

The map you linked looks like it only looks at non medical exemptions not the MMR.  The "exception" rate is higher because there are people who have skipped one vaccine, Hep B or chickenpox and they have to fill out the exemption form just like the totally unvaccinated child.    Also, Oregon has had 10 measles cases this year.  5 related to the group in Clark County WA and 5 unrelated and brought in from outside the country.  Sure, it would be preferably not to have any, but not exactly an out of control outbreak.  We will see what happens, but so far it has been several months and it's one case here and one case there, no ones been sent home from school.  Sure, lots of press, but more like click bait than actual news.  

Here is the data from the health department for Multnomah county: 

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/VACCINESIMMUNIZATION/GETTINGIMMUNIZED/Documents/CtyData/MultImmData.pdf

Here's data for the whole state

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/VACCINESIMMUNIZATION/GETTINGIMMUNIZED/Pages/SchDataCounty.aspx

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Local news back when the measles cases in Vancouver were news...  

I think perhaps general aggregate from tables which very likely include flu and HPV which relatively more people are avoiding if selective vaccinators.    I didn’t try adding up and getting a figure myself, but I think it was from the tables, and more general than measles...    relevancy insofar as some people posting on here think other people should be forced to be vaccinated for multiple things, including influenza, or not be allowed out in public.  As I understood it.  Which might be wrong.  Or deleted.  

A Tables link looks similar to one of your links but I cannot access yours.  

Here’s one for younger children.  There are also similar for teens.  I didn’t see a good one for adults.  

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/VACCINESIMMUNIZATION/Documents/county/Multnomah.pdf

 

 

I agree that while for a particular person in a homeschooling co-op full of non vaccinators the rate of non vaccination probably seems high it is overall not high, at least not for children.  

 

I think Oregon is generosity good example of a state with broad philosophical exemptions to vaccination opt out available that nonetheless has a high overall rate of vaccination—allowing both people to have a high vaccination rate and not to have forcible or coercive vaccination at same time.  And if Multnomah actually has high vaccination rates after all, so much the better for that as an example.  

@ealp2009

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9 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I think Oregon is generosity good example of a state with broad philosophical exemptions to vaccination opt out available that nonetheless has a high overall rate of vaccination—allowing both people to have a high vaccination rate and not to have forcible or coercive vaccination at same time.  And if Multnomah actually has high vaccination rates after all, so much the better for that as an example.  

@ealp2009

And yet, there is a bill in Oregon that has already passed the first step, to take away those exemptions based on these very few cases of measles.  I'm not seeing a ton of press on it either....which makes it feel a little sneaky. Also, people don't take into account in discussing the philosophical exemptions Vs medical exemptions, that some people are forced to use the philosophical exemption for a very valid medical reason simply because the their medical issue doesn't line up with the CDC medical exemption listed. I know a family that nearly lost a child (documented) from a reaction to vaccination and if this law passes, they have had to use the philosophical exemption to not vaccinate their younger child due to their medical history. I do believe that it should be parents choice. I also agree that if you have a big outbreak, like in NY, then quarantine makes sense for safety. I don't agree with laws that force. And yes, we vaccinate.

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I very much doubt that people in Mozambique are concerned about vaccine reactions. Ignoring the science of vaccines is something that comes from either a place of privilege or ignorance. No, I'm not calling any of you ignorant. I'm referring to some areas of the world where people have been convinced (sometimes by politicians, sometimes by religious leaders) that vaccination programs are a Western conspiracy. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mozambique-cholera-cases-rise-1.5081084

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On 3/31/2019 at 8:36 PM, Quill said:

This is more my thinking. Those 57,000 are likely to be largely in a few pockets. (The map linked by @Pen above does show this.) It bugs me that homeschoolers are a likely cohort for anti-vaxxers. When I did eventually catch my youngest up on MMR after delaying for several years, this was the catalyst for me. There were big outbreaks in a couple of states and I definitely thought, if that happens where we live, it is going to be in the homeschool community. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/health/measles-outbreaks-ukraine-israel.html  This reporter has been busy, and its worth the read. Hopefully y'all haven't used up your free articles for the month. 

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From abc7news https://abc7news.com/5259868/

“City hands out $1,000 fines for refusing to get measles vaccinations

New York City followed through on its threat to fine people who refused to get measlesvaccines on Thursday. 

The city's health department issued civil summons to three people a week after issuing an emergency order requiring anyone 6 months or older who lived in four specific zip codes -- all in Brooklyn -- to get the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine within 48 hours. Each person will be on the hook for a $1,000 fine. 

The zip codes -- 11205 in Clinton Hill, 11206 in Bushwick and 11211 and 11249 in Williamsburg -- are all in predominantly Orthodox Jewish communities.

...

In addition to the three people fined for being unvaccinated, the city also closed four additional schools for failure to provide vaccination and attendance records, the city said. 

The health department had ordered United Talmudical Academy, a yeshiva preschool, closed on Tuesday, but it has now been allowed to reopen. 

As of Thursday, there had been 359 measles cases in Queens and Brooklyn since the beginning of the outbreak last October, including 74 since the emergency order was issued on April 9. 

"The initial child with measles was unvaccinated and acquired measles on a visit to Israel, where a large outbreak of the disease is occurring," according to the health department. "Since then, there have been additional people from Brooklyn and Queens who were unvaccinated and acquired measles while in Israel." 

A lawsuit filed by five unnamed parents asking for the emergency order -- and mandatory vaccinations -- to be vacated "as arbitrary and capricious and contrary to law" was also shot down on Thursday. 

"The pivotal question posed for this court's determination is whether Respondent Commissioner has a rational, non-pretextual basis for declaring a public health emergency and issuing the attendant orders challenged herein," Kings County Judge Lawrence Knipel wrote in his decision. 

The judge found the emergency declaration to be well-founded, and followed up, writing, "A fireman need not obtain the informed consent of the owner before extinguishing a house fire. Vaccination is known to extinguish the fire of contagion."”

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We are a family who delayed vaccinations after a certain event. My nephew was one of the very few who actually had a serious reaction to a vaccine, the old DTP. It was reviewed and documented by a vaccine injury board, so it was a real injury. He had a seizure the day of one of those shots that lasted over 30 minutes, and he had seizures, brain damage because they couldn't ever be fully controlled, and developmental delays the rest of his life. The lot number of his shot had other serious complications for recipients as well.

He later saw two different research doctors who told my sister that he had an underlying genetic condition that trauma to the body can trigger and both suspected the shot as the culprit, and this condition is what ultimately took his life just over two years ago. When we heard about the genetic condition, we stopped vaccinations, and decided we would only do what we felt was absolutely necessary and wait until they were older to be involved in the decisions. 

Ds was going on a trip to Alaska last year where there had been some mumps cases, so he got his first MMR. He got a small cut on a rusty object at swim, so we got a DTaP shot.  Dd is becoming a nurse and had to get caught up on just a few shots. Thankfully, neither have had any obvious reactions. 

I can say that if you watch something like what happened to my nephew, it can really cause you to be concerned about vaccinations. You will be more hesitant to hand your child over for an unlimited number of shots. 

I guess I'm just asking that you not judge us all harshly. I miss my nephew so much, and I mourn the life he could have had! 

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From CNN and overseas newspapers are reporting too https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/24/health/measles-outbreak-record-us-bn/index.html

“Wednesday evening, the CDC confirmed the milestone. In a statement the agency said that as of 3 p.m. Wednesday it counted 695 cases of the illness this year. 

This is a break from the CDC practice of updating measles numbers weekly on Mondays. The CDC said it will not update its website with this new number until Monday, as scheduled. 

As the number of measles cases has soared this year federal health officials have remained mostly silent. 

That changed Wednesday evening when Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar released a statement. 

"The United States is seeing a resurgence of measles, a disease that had once been effectively eliminated from our country," he said and acknowledged the significance of the number of cases. 

'Most of the cases that we're seeing are in unvaccinated communities'

Measles is a highly contagious disease caused by a virus that can spread through the air when an infected person coughs or sneezes or if someone comes into direct contact or shares germs by touching the same objects or surfaces. Measles symptoms may include fever, cough, runny nose, watery eyes and a rash of red spots.

Most cases in the United States have emerged in communities with low rates of vaccination against the virus, according to public health officials.

"I do believe that parents' concerns about vaccines leads to undervaccination, and most of the cases that we're seeing are in unvaccinated communities," Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the CDC, said in February at a congressional hearing about measles outbreaks.

Nationally, the United States has high measles vaccination coverage. The CDC says 91.5% of US children aged 19 months to 35 months received at least one dose of the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine in 2017, the most recent year available.”

From LATimes https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-outbreaks-los-angeles-colleges-20190423-story.html

Los Angeles health officials warned this week that students and staff at UCLA and Cal State L.A. may be at risk of catching measles, an announcement that has raised questions about universities’ susceptibility to disease outbreaks.

Not only can cramped dorm rooms and crowded classrooms be breeding grounds for contagion, but young adults in California are less likely to be vaccinated than other age groups, experts say. One of the people infected in L.A.’s measles outbreak is a UCLA student, university officials confirmed Tuesday.

People who are now in their early 20s are part of what’s known as the “Wakefield generation,” because they were infants in 1998 when British scientist Andrew Wakefield published a now discredited paper claiming that vaccines cause autism. Scared of the side effects of vaccination, many parents chose to opt out.

California implemented one of the country’s strictest immunization laws in 2016 to try to increase vaccination rates, but high school students and young adults who had already finished their schooling when the law took effect were not required to comply. That has left a large pool of young people especially vulnerable to infections, experts say.

...

In 2015, the UC system approved a regulation requiring that students be fully vaccinatedbefore enrolling at any campus. At California universities in the past decade, there have been outbreaks of mumps, meningitis and norovirus.

But amid pushback, UC officials did not begin enforcing the regulation until fall 2018, the beginning of the current school year. Therefore, most students at UCLA enrolled before the requirement took effect.

...

This week, health officials also warned that someone infected with measles spent time in the library at Cal State L.A. for a few hours in April. University spokesman Robert Lopez said health officials had not said if the patient was a student.

The Cal State system requires that all students be vaccinated against measles and hepatitis B to begin classes, though it often allows a one-year grace period for students to catch up on their immunizations. Starting in fall 2020, CSU students will also be required to also be immunized against meningitis, whooping cough and chickenpox.”

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This is an interesting read.  In NZ basic vaccinations are free (our schedule doesn't include chicken pox though) and entirely optional. Flu is free to high risk groups and some workplaces fund it but I would say less than 50 percent get it.  Hepatic and meningitis are sometimes available depending on outbreaks   -  my kids 2years apart had differences with the meningitis vaccine.  We don't get a high enough rate and though they are  trying desperately up north to do a measles vaccine catch up the holidays and a campaign by anti-vaxers and the vaxed movie stuffed things up.

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There are 2 pregnant women now in NYC who have the measles. I believe they're from the same Orthodox Jewish community where the outbreak is.

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We have free vaccine clinics here in this state and I would guess probably in MS too which is why those two states have such very high immunization rates.  They aren't just in one place in the county either.  Before school starts, they set up in different parts of town in different days.  It is done by the health department and they take whatever insurance you may have but if you don't have it, your kids still get immunized (I have never used it so have no idea about the adults.)

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1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

We have free vaccine clinics here in this state and I would guess probably in MS too which is why those two states have such very high immunization rates.  They aren't just in one place in the county either.  Before school starts, they set up in different parts of town in different days.  It is done by the health department and they take whatever insurance you may have but if you don't have it, your kids still get immunized (I have never used it so have no idea about the adults.)

we have free clinics here in our state too.  Vancouver wa has one of the lower vaccination rates in the country.

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From abc7news  https://abc7news.com/health/measles-quarantine-orders-issued-at-ucla-cal-state-la/5271024/  and UCLA newsroom https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/protecting-our-campus-after-reported-measles-case

“UCLA said 127 students and faculty are being held while they await medical records to determine whether they're immune to the illness. More than 500 students, faculty and staff who may have come into contact with a student who contracted measles were screened. The student with measles attended classes at Franz Hall and Boelter Hall on April 2, 4 and 9 while contagious, according to UCLA. 


"We expect that those notified will be quarantined for approximately 24-48 hours until their proof of immunity is established. A few may need to remain in quarantine for up to seven days. We have arranged for those who live on campus to be cared for at UCLA while they are quarantined," UCLA said in a statement. 

A person with measles reportedly visited a library at CSU Los Angeles for a few hours, possibly exposing others. 

The Los Angeles County Department of Public Health said it's working with both universities "to institute a series of actions to limit the spread of measles based on its assessment of the previously identified measles cased." 

Measles is highly contagious and can stay in the air for up to two hours after a ill person coughs or sneezes, and can stay on surfaces for several hours, health officials say. About 90% of people who are exposed and not immune to the illness become sick 7 to 21 days after exposure.”

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5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

we have free clinics here in our state too.  Vancouver wa has one of the lower vaccination rates in the country.

Free clinics and at health departments here, too. But relatively low vaccination rates due primarily to broad exemptions. Our legislature is currently considering tightening the exemption restriction to only doctor approved medical reasons.

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18 minutes ago, Frances said:

Free clinics and at health departments here, too. But relatively low vaccination rates due primarily to broad exemptions. Our legislature is currently considering tightening the exemption restriction to only doctor approved medical reasons.

ours has had a bill to ban philosophical exemptions working its way through the legislature.

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10 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

There are 2 pregnant women now in NYC who have the measles. I believe they're from the same Orthodox Jewish community where the outbreak is.

I have a friend in one of those communities who is part of a group of Orthodox Jewish nurses working to counter the anti-vax propaganda in the community.

Here's an article about her. 

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