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gardenmom5

measles outbreak...

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11 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Look back at what I tried to explain about the foreign antigens possible explanation.  It would be (could be. — this is possible, not determined) a similar explanation whether the foreign antigens were injected from vaccination, inhaled from a sick building, ...

for some people it might only do what it’s supposed to do, but for some it might have unintended effects 


 

 

Pen, FWIW, I have thought for years that the proliferation of vaccinations for various conditions has very possibly affected autoimmunity rates (and I am coming from a nursing background with a dad who was a longtime researcher at the CDC). It seems to be a tough area to research politically at this time, because vaccinations are such a hot button issue.

I did choose to space vaccinations for my children and chose single vaccinations whenever possible. I will not choose Gardasil for them either. My oldest chose to get Gardasil on her own later, after the physician told her that her mother was an "idiot" (nice, lol.At the time she found that validation of her own opinion from a medical provider validating ;-))

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So I think there are two distinct things here:  1) autoimmune issues possibly triggered by vaccines, and 2) immune response being screwed up by vaccines. Two completely different areas of concern.   

 

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38 minutes ago, Pen said:

Mine also had exposures to “sick buildings “ and possible Lyme before hand, and also stress.  I tend to think in my case it was a combination of things adding or multiplying together, not just one thing.  I think if there is also family history/ genetics, it might take less to push one over brink into an autoimmune illness.  I think I started out very very robust and had declines as various things happened including some of the South American boosters for things like cholera , yellow fever etc.  ...   this is certainly  Not to say that I would have rather had cholera etc.  

I'm positive for my son, this was the case.  they've identified a protein produced by the placenta, that if it is lacking - can have an affect on the child having asd.  its production is usually blocked by an illness at some point early in the pregnancy.  I had pneumonia - and was hospitalized for it when I was eight weeks pg.  at the same time, we had been running tests to see what was going on with my HcG levels, and why was I bleeding?  then the genetic mutation that is one of those id'd as more prone... and he was forceps and it messed up his neck …very high bili (22 and climbing when he was hospitalized on four lights and an IV. that hospital does transfusions at 28/30)…   just one thing after another that all played their part..

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12 hours ago, Pen said:

for some people it might only do what it’s supposed to do, but for some it might have unintended effects 

I think this makes perfect sense, and it dovetails with the argument in the article briansmama linked about the former CDC researcher who claims SOME kids DO develop autism as a reaction to vaccinations.  (I'm not saying that's what you said, Pen, just making a connection.)  Obviously, most people don't have serious reactions like autoimmunity or autism or death, or those vaccines would no longer be used.  But some people have unexpected reactions which might be preventable, if doctors knew how to screen people better and were able to give better, patient-specific advice for prepping for vaccination and home treatment afterward.  For example, lots of pediatricians tell parents to give their little ones Tylenol for post-injection pain.  For most kids that seems to work out just fine.  However, Tylenol depletes the body's glutathione, which is needed to detoxify the vaccine adjuvants.  So, if you have a child who seems healthy, but is low in glutathione for any reason, he's more likely to have a problem.  I just wish there would be more research into this type of thing so that simple tests could be done on infants in the hospital before their first shots, just like they test babies for PKU.  Most people don't have that, but they test for it anyway. 

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4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 they've identified a protein produced by the placenta, that if it is lacking - can have an affect on the child having asd.  its production is usually blocked by an illness at some point early in the pregnancy. 

Interesting. I had food poisoning early in my pregnancy with my kiddo who has ASD. Do you have a link for an article about this, perchance?

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2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Interesting. I had food poisoning early in my pregnancy with my kiddo who has ASD. Do you have a link for an article about this, perchance?

sorry.  I was so overwhelmed with meeting his needs when I came across it.  I didn't save things- it would be like throwing it in a junk closet.  never to be seen again...

 

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On 2/6/2019 at 12:06 AM, vonfirmath said:

 

It is interesting. I'm on my second read through. The Demon Under the Microscope by Thomas Hager

 

I'd love to learn of more that take the development of medicine further as well.

 

I'm listening to the audio book now. Fascinating! Thanks for the recommendation!

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On 2/8/2019 at 5:11 PM, dmmetler said:

My DD is taking a college class which has a stated policy of no excused absences and absences start dropping the grade at the third missed class. Said professor caught the flu and it progressed to pneumonia. She has been out 2 1/2 weeks. I can’t help but wonder if she caught it from a student who came sick due to fear of missing too many classes. 

 

My dd has a few of those classes. She was barfy sick and was halfway hoping to have an opportunity to puke on the professors shoes.

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I know this thread is kind of old, but I’m bumping because I want to read it through. I was having a pretty genial discussion on FB with an acquaintance who is anti-vax, but I finally just folded today because one friend-of-a-friend on her wall is getting hostile wih me and I don’t have ten hours a day to read and respond to him. 

I remembered there was a recent thread about measles (actually, there were several SOs as well) and I am pushing it back up so it’s not so hard to find. 

Thanks. 

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On 2/9/2019 at 2:10 PM, gardenmom5 said:

I'm positive for my son, this was the case.  they've identified a protein produced by the placenta, that if it is lacking - can have an affect on the child having asd.  its production is usually blocked by an illness at some point early in the pregnancy.  I had pneumonia - and was hospitalized for it when I was eight weeks pg.  at the same time, we had been running tests to see what was going on with my HcG levels, and why was I bleeding?  then the genetic mutation that is one of those id'd as more prone... and he was forceps and it messed up his neck …very high bili (22 and climbing when he was hospitalized on four lights and an IV. that hospital does transfusions at 28/30)…   just one thing after another that all played their part..

So, I have asthma and typically get quite sick every single winter. I wonder if this might explain the repeat ASD in my children who have close birthdays. As in, oddly, my fall birthdays seem to have it (my asthma is the worst January to March and I found out I was pregnant around Christmas to New Years with them) and my spring birthdays seem okay (found out I was pregnant during the summer). Hmm..very interesting thought! Did not even realize the timing of the pregnancies with the diagnosis' until now.

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:07 PM, Halftime Hope said:

1) I wonder:  a) is there is a real difference in the virulence of wild measles today, vs. a generation ago? or b) do people have much weaker immune systems? or c) is it strictly a perception that measles are so God-awful, but really they are the same, and it's only our tolerance levels that have decreased?  (A bit of S/o from the risk aversion thread, I guess.) Any older ladies here -- with first-hand experience over a couple generations-- that have an opinion on it?  

 

 

I am a baby boomer. I had measles 45+ years ago, as did my brothers and all of my cousins ( a not insignificant number of children). Between 1986 and roughly 2000 most of my children also had the measles. In all cases it was a very mild disease indeed, almost a non event. Chicken pox were slightly worse (I had them twice, once as an adult) but if not for the god awful itchiness, it wasn't really much worse than a severe cold. Pertussis was even milder than measles and if any of us ever had rubella we weren't even aware of it. The mumps were pretty bad, much worse then any of the above, about as bad as a bad case of strep throat. 

Edited by KidsHappen
My text was in wrong place.

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I'm from the generation where we expected (and hoped!) to get all those diseases while young--so chickenpox, measles, rubella, mumps--I had all of that.  I did receive the "new-fangled" polio vax as a young child.  Basic attitude:  these diseases go around, good to get it while young (not as babies , but elementary-aged), and then you'll be immune for life (which was the teaching at the time).  So, my reality: as a kid, I was sick for a week or so, got to stay out of school and watch daytime TV.  It was no fun being sick but we expected that in a week or two, it would be past.

Of course, I was basically healthy, from a good home, well-nourished, etc.  I suspect that if one is in a situation lacking these good basics, the consequences of even "simple" diseases can be much worse.

Also, to note:  where we currently live overseas, there is no chickenpox vax and as that disease can cause reproductive damage if caught after puberty, we purposely (and selectively--the kid is healthy, no upcoming special events) expose them to it when most convenient.....  When my youngest was 4, our neighbor was quick to invite us over after her kids caught it....  

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2 hours ago, vmsurbat1 said:

I'm from the generation where we expected (and hoped!) to get all those diseases while young--so chickenpox, measles, rubella, mumps--I had all of that.  I did receive the "new-fangled" polio vax as a young child.  Basic attitude:  these diseases go around, good to get it while young (not as babies , but elementary-aged), and then you'll be immune for life (which was the teaching at the time).  So, my reality: as a kid, I was sick for a week or so, got to stay out of school and watch daytime TV.  It was no fun being sick but we expected that in a week or two, it would be past.

Of course, I was basically healthy, from a good home, well-nourished, etc.  I suspect that if one is in a situation lacking these good basics, the consequences of even "simple" diseases can be much worse.

Also, to note:  where we currently live overseas, there is no chickenpox vax and as that disease can cause reproductive damage if caught after puberty, we purposely (and selectively--the kid is healthy, no upcoming special events) expose them to it when most convenient.....  When my youngest was 4, our neighbor was quick to invite us over after her kids caught it....  

considering what polio could do to a person - with life long ill effects.  those who came through "unscathed" - would still develop polio after effects in old age. there's a reason it's was such a big deal when it was first developed.  have you ever seen the pictures of polio wards?  they're heartbreaking. do you know anyone who actually lived through polio? I do - and it was life changing. and not in a good way.

and "healthy, good home, etc" is no guarantee about childhood illnesses being minor.  My fil's very upper middle class family lost three infants.  

and chicken pox - the misery the elderly suffer from shingles because they had chicken pox as a child, and today people still take their kids out when they're sick!  I was elsewhere hearing someone cry because her father (who'd had CP as a child) was exposed to cp by some  thoughtless parent and it developed into a bad case of shingles.  the rash was over his back for two years, the nerve pain longer, and he became a virtual shut-in the rest of his life because of it.  so - yeah,  get the vaccine if possible.  2dd had a super easy case of cp (there wasn't a vaccine). she also had a super easy shingles case at SEVEN.  - she's very pro vaccine.

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2 hours ago, vmsurbat1 said:

Also, to note:  where we currently live overseas, there is no chickenpox vax and as that disease can cause reproductive damage if caught after puberty, we purposely (and selectively--the kid is healthy, no upcoming special events) expose them to it when most convenient.....   

it's MUMPS that can render men sterile if caught after puberty.

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58 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

considering what polio could do to a person - with life long ill effects.  those who came through "unscathed" - would still develop polio after effects in old age. there's a reason it's was such a big deal when it was first developed.  have you ever seen the pictures of polio wards?  they're heartbreaking. do you know anyone who actually lived through polio? I do - and it was life changing. and not in a good way.

and "healthy, good home, etc" is no guarantee about childhood illnesses being minor.  My fil's very upper middle class family lost three infants.  

and chicken pox - the misery the elderly suffer from shingles because they had chicken pox as a child, and today people still take their kids out when they're sick!  I was elsewhere hearing someone cry because her father (who'd had CP as a child) was exposed to cp by some  thoughtless parent and it developed into a bad case of shingles.  the rash was over his back for two years, the nerve pain longer, and he became a virtual shut-in the rest of his life because of it.  so - yeah,  get the vaccine if possible.  2dd had a super easy case of cp (there wasn't a vaccine). she also had a super easy shingles case at SEVEN.  - she's very pro vaccine.

 

Both of my grandmothers came from farm families. Lots of good food, good sanitation, clean homes. Both caught polio and have had life long complications.  One grandmother was significantly disabled her entire life; unable to stand straight, in constant pain until she died.  My great uncle had mumps as a teenager and was left sterile. 

As a culture, we are so far removed from these illnesses that we’ve forgotten the effects.  My great grandmothers prayed for a cure for things like polio, mumps, diptheria(which nearly killed my grandfather as a child).  They knew how bad these illnesses really were.

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

considering what polio could do to a person - with life long ill effects.  those who came through "unscathed" - would still develop polio after effects in old age. there's a reason it's was such a big deal when it was first developed.  have you ever seen the pictures of polio wards?  they're heartbreaking. do you know anyone who actually lived through polio? I do - and it was life changing. and not in a good way.

 

I'm confused....  I think you misunderstood my post.  

  • When I was young, the polio vaccine WAS new-fangled--a statement of fact, not an aspersion....  Yes, I do know people who lived through polio....  I'm by no means anti-vax. I was merely responding to the PP who wondered what it *was* like in the old days re: "Common childhood diseases".  I gave the perspective my family circle experienced.
  • My comment about being healthy explained why *I* might have not suffered severely--doesn't mean those who did weren't also healthy, loved, cared for, nourished.   But I certainly DO think those who come from less-than-ideal circumstances suffer more consequences--I've seen that here where we currently live.... 
  • My comment re: chickenpox relates to where *I* am (South Central Europe) and people don't take their children out when they are sick.  They invite you in, if you want to expose your child.  The vaccine isn't available here (yet).  That's reality, not a recommendation.....
  • I have suffered from shingles--twice.  Hence my statement that  "then you'll be immune for life (which was the teaching at the time)".  Obviously, what medicine thought has been proven wrong...  We *don't* seem to have lifelong immunity merely by having had it--but that was certainly the consensus at one point in time.....

And thank you for refreshing my memory about mumps vs. chickenpox re: sterility.....

 

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9 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

I am a baby boomer. I had measles 45+ years ago, as did my brothers and all of my cousins ( a not insignificant number of children). Between 1986 and roughly 2000 most of my children also had the measles. In all cases it was a very mild disease indeed, almost a non event. Chicken pox were slightly worse (I had them twice, once as an adult) but if not for the god awful itchiness, it wasn't really much worse than a severe cold. Pertussis was even milder than measles and if any of us ever had rubella we weren't even aware of it. The mumps were pretty bad, much worse then any of the above, about as bad as a bad case of strep throat. 

 

On the other side of the anecdotal, my family history is very different & much more dire. I'm older Gen X & my SIL is deaf as a result from childhood measles, my mother almost died from pertussis as an infant, a great aunt died due to diptheria and a great uncle currently struggles with repetitive debilitating shingles. 

But rather than relying on anecdotal evidence, it's best to look at the CDC, which has some good articles about historical impact of these diseases. Here's one on measles: ~ 6000 deaths a year each year between 1912 & 1922 (this was when they first began tracking). Here's another one on the history of epidemics.

 

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1 hour ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

Both of my grandmothers came from farm families. Lots of good food, good sanitation, clean homes. Both caught polio and have had life long complications.  One grandmother was significantly disabled her entire life; unable to stand straight, in constant pain until she died.  My great uncle had mumps as a teenager and was left sterile. 

As a culture, we are so far removed from these illnesses that we’ve forgotten the effects.  My great grandmothers prayed for a cure for things like polio, mumps, diptheria(which nearly killed my grandfather as a child).  They knew how bad these illnesses really were.

I think this is key with younger parents who choose not to vax. They don’t have any concept of what those diseases are really like. Even I only have limited experience, but I remember Chicken Pox vividly. It was horrid, even without permanent damage. I and my three older sisters had it together and mother was very pregnant with my younger sister. I can hardly imagine what that was like for my mom - and that is with a disease that is infrequently deadly. My sister had pox down her throat. I had it on my genitals and remember screaming in pain when I urinated. I am happy my kids have never had Chicken Pox.

I have often thought about what my grandmother would think if she knew thousands of parents are refusing these vaccines. I’m sure she knew people who died or were permanently damaged because of them. 

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32 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think this is key with younger parents who choose not to vax. They don’t have any concept of what those diseases are really like. Even I only have limited experience, but I remember Chicken Pox vividly. It was horrid, even without permanent damage. I and my three older sisters had it together and mother was very pregnant with my younger sister. I can hardly imagine what that was like for my mom - and that is with a disease that is infrequently deadly. My sister had pox down her throat. I had it on my genitals and remember screaming in pain when I urinated. I am happy my kids have never had Chicken Pox.

I have often thought about what my grandmother would think if she knew thousands of parents are refusing these vaccines. I’m sure she knew people who died or were permanently damaged because of them. 

 

My grandma died three years and one month ago at the age of 93. She used to be a nurse. She told all her progeny what she thought of vaccines and medical treatment(s), in no uncertain terms, lol.

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

I think this is key with younger parents who choose not to vax. They don’t have any concept of what those diseases are really like. Even I only have limited experience, but I remember Chicken Pox vividly. It was horrid, even without permanent damage. I and my three older sisters had it together and mother was very pregnant with my younger sister. I can hardly imagine what that was like for my mom - and that is with a disease that is infrequently deadly. My sister had pox down her throat. I had it on my genitals and remember screaming in pain when I urinated. I am happy my kids have never had Chicken Pox.

I have often thought about what my grandmother would think if she knew thousands of parents are refusing these vaccines. I’m sure she knew people who died or were permanently damaged because of them. 

But see, even if they do remember the diseases, everyone's reactions are so different.  I had chickpox, it was nothing like you describe.  I got to stay home from school for a week and lay around watching TV.  It was "almost" fun.  And while they itched, it really wasn't that bad, the other skin conditions (some form of dermititis) that I have has always been a far bigger problem.  Honestly there was 1 kid in my grade school who had serious problems, everyone else it was pretty mild.  So I'm sure for that one kid it was a big deal, but statistically, I think it was mild for more people than those who had big problems.  Even our doctor (who fully supports/encourages vaccinations) says chickpox is really pretty mild and the reason for the push on the vaccine was that with so many family with 2 working parents, the parents couldn't afford the time off for sick kid(s) and jumped on the bandwagon to not have to deal with it.  

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On 2/3/2019 at 8:15 PM, Melissa in Australia said:

I am old enough that I had Measles, German Measles, chicken pox and Mumps  before there was routine immunization of infants. Rubella shots were then  given at age 7 - I had already had it by then. I remember how ill I was as a child. It was awful.

I think some of those anti vaxers have no idea how ill you get, or the many complications that result in permanent damage or death.

Interestingly DH has had German Measles twice- once when a child and once when I was pregnant with second ds. 


One time when I was substitute teaching, I assisted in the class for severely disabled 'kids' from when the mother had German Measles while pregnant with them.   There was enough that there was a separate class, and that was just at the high school level.  
I remember my mother saying that they got the German Measles vaccine for me even though they weren't urging it for girls.  Boys that got it could be made sterile.  

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2 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

On the other side of the anecdotal, my family history is very different & much more dire. I'm older Gen X & my SIL is deaf as a result from childhood measles, my mother almost died from pertussis as an infant, a great aunt died due to diptheria and a great uncle currently struggles with repetitive debilitating shingles. 

But rather than relying on anecdotal evidence, it's best to look at the CDC, which has some good articles about historical impact of these diseases. Here's one on measles: ~ 6000 deaths a year each year between 1912 & 1922 (this was when they first began tracking). Here's another one on the history of epidemics.

 


My mother was bedridden for a month+ with flu because she was waiting for an opening in my schedule to get the flu vaccine.  
In her case, it worked out because she quit smoking.   But, it was super hard on her (and the family).   
 

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8 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

But see, even if they do remember the diseases, everyone's reactions are so different.  I had chickpox, it was nothing like you describe.  I got to stay home from school for a week and lay around watching TV.  It was "almost" fun.  And while they itched, it really wasn't that bad, the other skin conditions (some form of dermititis) that I have has always been a far bigger problem.  Honestly there was 1 kid in my grade school who had serious problems, everyone else it was pretty mild.  So I'm sure for that one kid it was a big deal, but statistically, I think it was mild for more people than those who had big problems.  Even our doctor (who fully supports/encourages vaccinations) says chickpox is really pretty mild and the reason for the push on the vaccine was that with so many family with 2 working parents, the parents couldn't afford the time off for sick kid(s) and jumped on the bandwagon to not have to deal with it.  

Right, but there’s no way to know if your child might have a severe case or not. CP, obviously, is usually not deadly or permanently harmful. But the theory of vaccines is, isn’t it better to prevent it at the outset than to hope it isn’t too bad? I have also heard the main reason for CP vax was economic, but I don’t think that is an inconsequential reason. A lot of people get flu shots for economic reasons, too, not because they will probably die from it. It’s just preferable to not miss two weeks of work. 

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1 minute ago, Quill said:

Right, but there’s no way to know if your child might have a severe case or not. CP, obviously, is usually not deadly or permanently harmful. But the theory of vaccines is, isn’t it better to prevent it at the outset than to hope it isn’t too bad? I have also heard the main reason for CP vax was economic, but I don’t think that is an inconsequential reason. A lot of people get flu shots for economic reasons, too, not because they will probably die from it. It’s just preferable to not miss two weeks of work. 


And isn't Shingles based on having had CP?   Sort of the opposite of Acquired Immunity.  
 

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And of course, the people who died from these illnesses, or became sterile, or were so disabled they never got married/had children, don't have a voice in the discussion. I can say my grandma survived XYZ disease just fine, because she did survive just fine. But she probably had classmates that didn't, but because they didn't have children/grandchildren there is no one on this board to say "my grandmother died/was infertile/bedridden from XYZ". So since only the ones that did well went on to reproduce, those are the stories that get passed down. I want to say that is selection bias but that might not be quite the right phrase. 

Kind of like the people saying 'I grew up without wearing seatbelts/helmets/etc and I'm fine". Well yeah, but the ones that were NOT fine aren't here to tell about it.

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46 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:


And isn't Shingles based on having had CP?   Sort of the opposite of Acquired Immunity.  
 

shingles is caused by the same virus as cp.  if someone has had cp, and been reexposed - they can develop shingles.  someone with shingles - can pass the virus onto someone who has never had it and is not immunized.

the nerve pain from shingles can continue long after the shingles-rash has cleared up.  I recall watching my grandmother- and she didn't have a particularly bad case, but she was in pain and it was debilitating.

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52 minutes ago, Quill said:

Right, but there’s no way to know if your child might have a severe case or not. CP, obviously, is usually not deadly or permanently harmful. But the theory of vaccines is, isn’t it better to prevent it at the outset than to hope it isn’t too bad? I have also heard the main reason for CP vax was economic, but I don’t think that is an inconsequential reason. A lot of people get flu shots for economic reasons, too, not because they will probably die from it. It’s just preferable to not miss two weeks of work. 

I was in high school when the otherwise healthy daughter of one of my teachers developed a severe reaction to the chickenpox virus.  (that was the conclusion).  her white cell count tanked so low (and everything else) they were running tests for leukemia.

she was very sick - and ran up expensive medical bills (not to mention the time the parents were taking from work to care for her). - so economic is most certainly a consideration.

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4 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

On the other side of the anecdotal, my family history is very different & much more dire. I'm older Gen X & my SIL is deaf as a result from childhood measles, my mother almost died from pertussis as an infant, a great aunt died due to diptheria and a great uncle currently struggles with repetitive debilitating shingles. 

But rather than relying on anecdotal evidence, it's best to look at the CDC, which has some good articles about historical impact of these diseases. Here's one on measles: ~ 6000 deaths a year each year between 1912 & 1922 (this was when they first began tracking). Here's another one on the history of epidemics.

 

I never said it was best to look to anecdotal evidence. I answered a specific question asked by a previous poster. 

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8 hours ago, vmsurbat1 said:

I'm from the generation where we expected (and hoped!) to get all those diseases while young--so chickenpox, measles, rubella, mumps--I had all of that.  I did receive the "new-fangled" polio vax as a young child.  Basic attitude:  these diseases go around, good to get it while young (not as babies , but elementary-aged), and then you'll be immune for life (which was the teaching at the time).  So, my reality: as a kid, I was sick for a week or so, got to stay out of school and watch daytime TV.  It was no fun being sick but we expected that in a week or two, it would be past.

 

I'm also from that generation. We were given the sugar cube polio vaccination at school. The adults were so happy that there was finally protection against that dreaded disease. I don't recall any of our parents hoping we'd get the childhood diseases (chicken pox, measles, etc.). Relieved that it was over with and we didn't suffer any of the serious complications (our family knew more than one kid who did) is not the same as actually hoping your child would contract a disease.

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

considering what polio could do to a person - with life long ill effects.  those who came through "unscathed" - would still develop polio after effects in old age. there's a reason it's was such a big deal when it was first developed.  have you ever seen the pictures of polio wards?  they're heartbreaking. do you know anyone who actually lived through polio? I do - and it was life changing. and not in a good way.

 

This! My brother's ex-MIL had polio as a child. She walks with a limp and has limited use of her left arm and hand. She was one of the lucky ones. 

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9 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

 

As a culture, we are so far removed from these illnesses that we’ve forgotten the effects.  My great grandmothers prayed for a cure for things like polio, mumps, diptheria(which nearly killed my grandfather as a child).  They knew how bad these illnesses really were.

 

7 hours ago, Quill said:

I think this is key with younger parents who choose not to vax. They don’t have any concept of what those diseases are really like. Even I only have limited experience, but I remember Chicken Pox vividly. It was horrid, even without permanent damage. I and my three older sisters had it together and mother was very pregnant with my younger sister. I can hardly imagine what that was like for my mom - and that is with a disease that is infrequently deadly. My sister had pox down her throat. I had it on my genitals and remember screaming in pain when I urinated. I am happy my kids have never had Chicken Pox.

I have often thought about what my grandmother would think if she knew thousands of parents are refusing these vaccines. I’m sure she knew people who died or were permanently damaged because of them. 

There's a societal amnesia of sorts going on when it comes to vaccinations and childhood diseases. My generation that grew up before all but smallpox and polio vaccines did a poor job of passing down the information to the next generation(s) and there's also the refusal to believe those of us who do try to point it out. The result is seen in the spike in childhood diseases and the complications that can come with them. I've seen reports where parents who lost children to pertussis say that wish they had known how bad it could be. They were told. They just didn't believe it until it affected them. 

Edited by Lady Florida.
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6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

and chicken pox - the misery the elderly suffer from shingles because they had chicken pox as a child, and today people still take their kids out when they're sick!  I was elsewhere hearing someone cry because her father (who'd had CP as a child) was exposed to cp by some  thoughtless parent and it developed into a bad case of shingles.  the rash was over his back for two years, the nerve pain longer, and he became a virtual shut-in the rest of his life because of it.  so - yeah,  get the vaccine if possible.  2dd had a super easy case of cp (there wasn't a vaccine). she also had a super easy shingles case at SEVEN.  - she's very pro vaccine.

Younger and younger people are getting shingles. My dd had them at 16 and my SIL currently has them at 33. There have been many cases show up in people who have not had CP but have had the vaccination. So it appears that any exposure to the virus (even through vaccination) can cause shingles. MY own personal doctor told me that he believes that the shot is what is causing the younger cases. 

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14 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

 

There's a societal amnesia of sorts going on when it comes to vaccinations and childhood diseases. My generation that grew up before all by smallpox and polio vaccines did a poor job of passing down the information to the next generation(s) and there's also the refusal to believe those of us who do try to point it out. The result is seen in the spike in childhood diseases and the complications that can come with them. I've seen reports where parents who lost children to pertussis say that wish they had known how bad it could be. They were told. They just didn't believe it until it affected them. 

Yeah...I know when my second child was born, the focus wasn’t as much on MMR and autism but was on DTaP and SIDS. (In my circles, at least.) I heard a lot of online folks refusing DTaP because they were afraid it caused SIDS. One lady flippantly said her twin infants had had Pertussis which they got from a lady at church who coughed throughout the service, according to her. The thing is, she never verified it was literally Pertussis; they had a bad cough and she check-marked in her mind, “Ok, so they had Pertussis. It wasn’t even that bad.” 

When my youngest was a tiny baby, he had RSV. I took him into the ER when he was very young, say six weeks or so, because he had pronounced stridor and could barely breathe. I had already settled the DTaP question in my mind by then, but the thought was going through my head - how would I feel if I brought him to the ER and they said it was a preventable disease I had refused to vaccinate against? 

Of course the agonizing fear was, “Yeah, but what if you do get the shot and your child dies and you have to live with having given the shot?” Still, from a guilt mitigation perspective (lol, I just made that up), it would be better to have suffered an unlikely side-effect while you were trying to do the right thing than to not have done the riht thing and suffered the consequences. Sort of like if your kid died in a car accident, entangled in a seatbelt. The guilt is better mitigated from that unlikely outcome than if an unbelted kid flew through the windshield. 

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25 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Younger and younger people are getting shingles. My dd had them at 16 and my SIL currently has them at 33. There have been many cases show up in people who have not had CP but have had the vaccination. So it appears that any exposure to the virus (even through vaccination) can cause shingles. MY own personal doctor told me that he believes that the shot is what is causing the younger cases. 

2dd had them at seven.  she only had a scant handful of pox at two, and one tiny pock for the shingles rash.  lasted a week or two.  she was reading about vaccines for her own edification before she ever enrolled in pharmacy school.  she made us all get the tdap before we could see the baby.  (i reacted very badly to the pertusses portion - my reaction lasted at least two weeks.  my arm hot, red, and swollen. and painful.  - then she took him out in public....really?)

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7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

considering what polio could do to a person - with life long ill effects.  those who came through "unscathed" - would still develop polio after effects in old age. there's a reason it's was such a big deal when it was first developed.  have you ever seen the pictures of polio wards?  they're heartbreaking. do you know anyone who actually lived through polio? I do - and it was life changing. and not in a good way.

and "healthy, good home, etc" is no guarantee about childhood illnesses being minor.  My fil's very upper middle class family lost three infants.  

and chicken pox - the misery the elderly suffer from shingles because they had chicken pox as a child, and today people still take their kids out when they're sick!  I was elsewhere hearing someone cry because her father (who'd had CP as a child) was exposed to cp by some  thoughtless parent and it developed into a bad case of shingles.  the rash was over his back for two years, the nerve pain longer, and he became a virtual shut-in the rest of his life because of it.  so - yeah,  get the vaccine if possible.  2dd had a super easy case of cp (there wasn't a vaccine). she also had a super easy shingles case at SEVEN.  - she's very pro vaccine.

 

People can still get shingles after having the chicken pox vaccine. 

Related to your other post, and the mumps, yes it can cause sterility, which is why, to me, we are beating a dead horse with some vaccines because they don't provide lifelong immunity, and people ARE getting the diseases as adults. Have you seen the news about the military boat being quarantined because they had about 25-30 military personnel with a "mumps-like illness," although looking it up, and seeing the CDC info on it, it's something that should've been covered by the mumps vaccine. These adult men would ALL have been vaccinated, and likely fairly recently.

I think there's a benefit to lifelong immunities we get from having these diseases, including protection against cancers as shown in some studies. Are we really willing to trade measles for cancer? And when I think about it, the cancer rates have skyrocketed over the last 25-30 years. Sure it could be attributed to many things, but how do we KNOW there is no relation to the virtual elimination of basic, childhood illnesses?

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42 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

And when I think about it, the cancer rates have skyrocketed over the last 25-30 years. Sure it could be attributed to many things, but how do we KNOW there is no relation to the virtual elimination of basic, childhood illnesses?

1. That's an appeal to ignorance - a basic logical fallacy. For that matter, we don't know that there is no relation to the color teal, or space clients, or increased literacy.

2. People still get PLENTY of illnesses. Most kids get sick several times a year. The immune system is not going unchallenged. 

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2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

People can still get shingles after having the chicken pox vaccine. 

Related to your other post, and the mumps, yes it can cause sterility, which is why, to me, we are beating a dead horse with some vaccines because they don't provide lifelong immunity, and people ARE getting the diseases as adults. Have you seen the news about the military boat being quarantined because they had about 25-30 military personnel with a "mumps-like illness," although looking it up, and seeing the CDC info on it, it's something that should've been covered by the mumps vaccine. These adult men would ALL have been vaccinated, and likely fairly recently.

I think there's a benefit to lifelong immunities we get from having these diseases, including protection against cancers as shown in some studies. Are we really willing to trade measles for cancer? And when I think about it, the cancer rates have skyrocketed over the last 25-30 years. Sure it could be attributed to many things, but how do we KNOW there is no relation to the virtual elimination of basic, childhood illnesses?

 

There will always be a group of people for whom the vaccines will not work or immunity has waned. Most of the people on that ship did not become ill because of vaccines and those that did become ill represent (roughly) the known percentage of the population for which vaccines won’t work. Can you imagine what that enclosed space would be like right now if no one were immune?!

Edited by Sneezyone
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Shingles is caused by the varicella virus.  The vaccination has the virus.  It's a live virus vaccine.  So people who have had the chicken pox vaccine can get shingles, too.  In fact, having had the vaccination rather than "wild" chicken pox SLIGHTLY increases the risk of shingles, particularly at younger ages.  It's for that reason that I, who am very pro vaccines, waited on the chicken pox vaccine.  It's the one vaccine that I did the math and would have preferred my kids to have contracted the illness.  However, they didn't catch it before puberty, so we got the vaccine.  Frequent exposure to the varicella virus actually serves to make shingles less likely.  A person who had chicken pox as a child is least likely to contract shingles if they are regularly re-exposed to the varicella virus.  So "in the olden days," when kids got chicken pox and were out in public before they knew they had it, people were regularly exposed.  You had more concentrated exposure caring for your kids and grandkids when they had chicken pox.  Since the virus is becoming less "available" in our society but people still have it circulating in their body (from the illness or the vaccine), shingles is on the rise.  THAT is the reason a number of European countries have chosen not to make the vaccine a part of their vaccination routine.  

It can be a very miserable, uncomfortable illness, and it can have serious side effects.  No judgment on anyone who chooses the vaccine, at all.  I had my kids vaccinated for it when they didn't catch it during the ideal time, when they would be least likely to have serious illness.  But the majority of the time, chicken pox is pretty mild.  I worry a lot more about shingles than I do about chicken pox, and the chicken pox does NOT protect against shingles.  (Since in fact it makes it very slightly more likely.)  

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TMI, but this is on my mind because I just got my titers back from my prenatal bloodwork. The only thing I'm not immune to any more is Mumps. Pretty scary considering I live on the west coast of the US where the MMR  considered more dangerous than a pregnant woman getting mumps in certain circles. Sucks when you're one of the people relying on herd immunity that's declining in your own state.

Edited by EmseB
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4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

shingles is caused by the same virus as cp.  if someone has had cp, and been reexposed - they can develop shingles.  someone with shingles - can pass the virus onto someone who has never had it and is not immunized.

the nerve pain from shingles can continue long after the shingles-rash has cleared up.  I recall watching my grandmother- and she didn't have a particularly bad case, but she was in pain and it was debilitating.

 

This is inaccurate. It is not re-exposure to the chicken pox virus that causes shingles.

The chicken pox virus, like others in the herpes family, has the ability to remain dormant in the body after an initial infection. It can become re-activated at any time, though stress often seems to be a trigger. Research suggests that regular exposure to the virus (circulating in the community) actually keeps the immune system primed to fight viral re-activation. The reason that shingles seems to have become more common in younger people after the introduction of the vaccine appears to be because people who have been through a chicken pox infection now have fewer re-exposures.

The shingles vaccine now serves the purpose of reminding the immune system how to fight the virus that regular community exposure used to serve.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, EmseB said:

TMI, but this is on my mind because I just got my titers back from my prenatal bloodwork. The only thing I'm not immune to any more is Mumps. Pretty scary considering I live on the west coast of the US where the MMR  considered more dangerous than a pregnant woman getting mumps in certain circles. Sucks when you're one of the people relying on herd immunity that's declining in your own state.

Tangent: When I was debating on FB, my friend said something like, “for all we know, all the adults are no longer immune...” and I said, “Well, maybe, but when I was pregnant, they checked titres as part of routine bloodwork.” She was surprised by this and said she had never heard of this and doesn’t remember any such thing when she was pregnant. 

More to your point: I’m sorry. That stinks. For once I’m glad to live in the state in which I live. There is no “philosophical objection” honored here Though I do consider the homeschooling community higher risk because people with no intention of using schools, camps or daycares escape the need to vax. It was actually this concern that led me to vaccinate my youngest for MMR; I had held out for several years with him, but when outbreaks were happening in several states, I was definitely concerned that a hs community would be the spot if there were an outbreak here. 

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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

1. That's an appeal to ignorance - a basic logical fallacy. For that matter, we don't know that there is no relation to the color teal, or space clients, or increased literacy.

2. People still get PLENTY of illnesses. Most kids get sick several times a year. The immune system is not going unchallenged. 

 

There probably is a connection. Everyone dies of SOMETHING. With the percentage of people dying of communicable diseases dropping so much thanks to clean water, adequate nutrition, and vaccination, more people live long enough to develop some kind of cancer in middle to old age instead of dying of polio or smallpox or influenza or cholera as a child.

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10 minutes ago, Ravin said:

 

There probably is a connection. Everyone dies of SOMETHING. With the percentage of people dying of communicable diseases dropping so much thanks to clean water, adequate nutrition, and vaccination, more people live long enough to develop some kind of cancer in middle to old age instead of dying of polio or smallpox or influenza or cholera as a child.

When I was talking about vaccines on FB, one person said, “doctors cause more deaths than all the people killed in Vietnam!” Umm...okay. I don’t even know how to begin to sort the logical fallacies in that statement. It’s like saying, “More people have died after having eaten sandwiches than any other food!” 

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2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

People can still get shingles after having the chicken pox vaccine. 

 

Yes they can but it's quite rare and studies show that the varicella vaccine actually reduces the risk of getting shingles later in life. The spike in shingles is partly due to people living longer and most of the people getting shingles today are those who had chicken pox before the vaccine became available. Those few who were vaccinated and get shingles get a much milder version, just like those who get chicken pox even though vaccinated get a milder form of that disease as well. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091204092443.htm

https://www.livescience.com/45804-chickenpox-vaccine-cause-shingles.html

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7 hours ago, Quill said:

I think this is key with younger parents who choose not to vax. They don’t have any concept of what those diseases are really like. Even I only have limited experience, but I remember Chicken Pox vividly. It was horrid, even without permanent damage. I and my three older sisters had it together and mother was very pregnant with my younger sister. I can hardly imagine what that was like for my mom - and that is with a disease that is infrequently deadly. My sister had pox down her throat. I had it on my genitals and remember screaming in pain when I urinated. I am happy my kids have never had Chicken Pox.

I have often thought about what my grandmother would think if she knew thousands of parents are refusing these vaccines. I’m sure she knew people who died or were permanently damaged because of them. 

I agree. My mom was a nurse and has lots of stories about bad outcomes. But there are also the diehards like the parents whose son get tetanus and was hospitalized for weeks and almost died. Yet they still refused to have him immunized for tetanus. I’m still confused by what they think is a worse outcome than almost dying. 

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2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I agree. My mom was a nurse and has lots of stories about bad outcomes. But there are also the diehards like the parents whose son get tetanus and was hospitalized for weeks and almost died. Yet they still refused to have him immunized for tetanus. I’m still confused by what they think is a worse outcome than almost dying. 

Those parents absolutely boggled my mind. He even was given a Tetanus shot when he arrived at the hospital. They just wouldn’t complete the series. 

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Shingles is caused by the varicella virus.  The vaccination has the virus.  It's a live virus vaccine.  So people who have had the chicken pox vaccine can get shingles, too.  In fact, having had the vaccination rather than "wild" chicken pox SLIGHTLY increases the risk of shingles, particularly at younger ages.  It's for that reason that I, who am very pro vaccines, waited on the chicken pox vaccine.  It's the one vaccine that I did the math and would have preferred my kids to have contracted the illness.  However, they didn't catch it before puberty, so we got the vaccine.  Frequent exposure to the varicella virus actually serves to make shingles less likely.  A person who had chicken pox as a child is least likely to contract shingles if they are regularly re-exposed to the varicella virus.  So "in the olden days," when kids got chicken pox and were out in public before they knew they had it, people were regularly exposed.  You had more concentrated exposure caring for your kids and grandkids when they had chicken pox.  Since the virus is becoming less "available" in our society but people still have it circulating in their body (from the illness or the vaccine), shingles is on the rise.  THAT is the reason a number of European countries have chosen not to make the vaccine a part of their vaccination routine.  

It can be a very miserable, uncomfortable illness, and it can have serious side effects.  No judgment on anyone who chooses the vaccine, at all.  I had my kids vaccinated for it when they didn't catch it during the ideal time, when they would be least likely to have serious illness.  But the majority of the time, chicken pox is pretty mild.  I worry a lot more about shingles than I do about chicken pox, and the chicken pox does NOT protect against shingles.  (Since in fact it makes it very slightly more likely.)  

Do you have a reference to research indicating that those who received the chicken pox vaccine and did not contract a wild type chicken pox infection have an increased risk of developing shingles? I've been searching through studies and can't find any that back up this claim.

The medical consensus at this time seems to be that those who are vaccinated are much less likely to develop shingles and if they do develop they will likely have a mild case.

Edited by maize
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26 minutes ago, Frances said:

I agree. My mom was a nurse and has lots of stories about bad outcomes. But there are also the diehards like the parents whose son get tetanus and was hospitalized for weeks and almost died. Yet they still refused to have him immunized for tetanus. I’m still confused by what they think is a worse outcome than almost dying. 

My guess would be actually dying.

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One thing that gets me is, the argument that we shouldn't vaccinate for something just because it's "less serious."

The poliovirus, before a vaccine, was extremely common. Polio infection, and poliomyelitis, mostly affected children under 5, so the youngest and most vulnerable. Most people infected with it  (72%) never had any visible symptoms. About 25% of people would get "flulike" symptoms that would go away on their own. 1 in 25 people with poliovirus infections would develop meningitis. Only 0.5%--1 in 200--people with poliovirus infections would develop poliomyelitis (the paralytic disease people think of when they think of polio). Poliomyelitis would affect breathing (and therefore could be lethal) in 2-10% of all cases of poliomyelitis, which is to say, 0.01% to 0.05% of all poliovirus infections. That's not a high percentage of infections! Someone who developed even mild paralysis was not one of the "lucky" ones. Good luck was being among the 72% who got no symptoms from the virus. All numbers courtesy of the CDC.

Varicella, on the the other hand, also primarily caused childhood infections, and resulted in fatal complications in about 1 to 1.5 in 40,000 infections that is, 0.0025% to 0.00375% of varicella infections caused death. Numbers from CDC. That is a lower mortality rate by an order of magnitude. 0.2625% to 0.325% of varicella infections would result in hospitalization. That is an order of magnitude fewer serious complications than for poliovirus (4% of infections developed meningitis, which is a reasonable proxy for "serious enough to need hospitalization in the early 1990's").

On the one hand, people really aren't blowing smoke when they argue that chicken pox is less serious. The hard numbers show that's true. On the other, our society developing a lower tolerance for risk of complications from vaccine-preventable infectious diseases is not necessarily a bad thing. Everyone dies of something. Better it be something most common in very old age than something most common in children.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, KidsHappen said:

My guess would be actually dying.

But he almost died from tetanus and it sounds like he suffered terribly. And since getting it doesn’t provide immunity, the next time he could die. 

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