Flustered neighbor kids walking home at 9:30 pm!!!

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think there is a huge difference psychologically between having to find a pay phone, or asking to use the phone at a place like the library - both of which were possibilities - and being able to text at any time.   

Well just because my kid may be able to text / call is no guarantee of what my response (if any) is going to be.

Personally I got my kids phones for my own convenience and flexibility.

The cell phone offers the added benefit of making other "helpful people" feel like they don't need to interfere / intervene when my kid is "alone," because my kid can always contact me if she needs something (though that doesn't mean I'm actually going to do anything about it).

I have been known to tell my kids not to call me when I felt they were getting too dependent.  Like when my kid is alone at the horse barn because I had to drive her sister somewhere across town at the same time her class ended.  I have told her "I don't know exactly what time I'm going to be here, so just wait.  Don't call me and don't act like a fool.  Just wait quietly."  (If it weren't too far to walk, I'd be saying just walk home.)

And on that note - when I was a kid, I was always within walking or public transportation distance from home.  Now in the suburbs, there is usually no option for the kids to find their own way home after most of their activities.  (Though my daughters have started asking about possible rides from their licensed friends or friends' parents.)  My point being that I didn't need my parents in order to get home when I was a kid.  I might take a wrong turn or a wrong bus, but I could always get home on my own eventually.  The only purpose of a cell phone would have been to inform my folks why I was running late.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well just because my kid may be able to text / call is no guarantee of what my response (if any) is going to be.

Personally I got my kids phones for my own convenience and flexibility.

The cell phone offers the added benefit of making other "helpful people" feel like they don't need to interfere / intervene when my kid is "alone," because my kid can always contact me if she needs something (though that doesn't mean I'm actually going to do anything about it).

I have been known to tell my kids not to call me when I felt they were getting too dependent.  Like when my kid is alone at the horse barn because I had to drive her sister somewhere across time at the same time her class ended.  I have told her "I don't know exactly what time I'm going to be here, so just wait.  Don't call me and don't act like a fool.  Just wait quietly."  (If it weren't too far to walk, I'd be saying just walk home.)

And on that note - when I was a kid, I was always within walking or public transportation distance from home.  Now in the suburbs, there is usually no option for the kids to find their own way home after most of their activities.  (Though my daughters have started asking about possible rides from their licensed friends or friends' parents.)  My point being that I didn't need my parents in order to get home when I was a kid.  I might take a wrong turn or a wrong bus, but I could always get home on my own eventually.  The only purpose of a cell phone would have been to inform my folks why I was running late.

 

The response isn't really the point though, nor is why anyone got cell phones for their kid, or whether it was really a good idea.  It's whether the attitudes of parents being overly watchful of their kids, which I would say we know is a thing, is in any way made worse or reinforced because of cell phones.  And related tech too, I suppose, it's not uncommon now for parents to put tracking gadgets on them.  That's a far cry for a 10 year old out all day on a bike, without a parent being able to talk to them or track them any time they wanted to.  We've become used to instant access and also always knowing what is going on. It makes people uncomfortable, then, when those things aren't there.

I liken it to a lot of the social media - sure, it can be useful.  For young people though, it's also really cut into the sense of being alone, with their peers out of sight and mind, and many seem to be more uncomfortable with being cut off from the others - something teens often had to learn was ok even before, but now they seem able to avoid that experience to a greater degree.

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

The response isn't really the point though, nor is why anyone got cell phones for their kid, or whether it was really a good idea.  It's whether the attitudes of parents being overly watchful of their kids, which I would say we know is a thing, is in any way made worse or reinforced because of cell phones.  And related tech too, I suppose, it's not uncommon now for parents to put tracking gadgets on them.  That's a far cry for a 10 year old out all day on a bike, without a parent being able to talk to them or track them any time they wanted to.  We've become used to instant access and also always knowing what is going on. It makes people uncomfortable, then, when those things aren't there.

I agree that technology is reinforcing this, and although subtle, can have a great impact.  My university has adopted new technology, encourage students to download an app, which, if they do not return to the dorm within a certain amount of time from going on a jog, shopping, etc. their emergency contact people (parents, friends,, whomever) will be notified of their absence.  I really doubt that Sally's mom in Florida knowing that Sally, who is in Arizona, hasn't returned to dorm from her shopping trip after an hour on Friday afternoon makes Sally any safer.  

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

The response isn't really the point though, nor is why anyone got cell phones for their kid, or whether it was really a good idea.  It's whether the attitudes of parents being overly watchful of their kids, which I would say we know is a thing, is in any way made worse or reinforced because of cell phones.  And related tech too, I suppose, it's not uncommon now for parents to put tracking gadgets on them.  That's a far cry for a 10 year old out all day on a bike, without a parent being able to talk to them or track them any time they wanted to.  We've become used to instant access and also always knowing what is going on. It makes people uncomfortable, then, when those things aren't there.

I liken it to a lot of the social media - sure, it can be useful.  For young people though, it's also really cut into the sense of being alone, with their peers out of sight and mind, and many seem to be more uncomfortable with being cut off from the others - something teens often had to learn was ok even before, but now they seem able to avoid that experience to a greater degree.

Meh.  My family doesn't have a "check-in" culture.  My kids never check in on their cell phones to let me know what is going on, so no, I do not feel uncomfortable when they don't.  The psychological response to this tool is a choice.

[SKL]

Just checked and the last text I got from my youngest was January 29.  She had been dropped off at the horse barn and nobody else was there.  She was to be there for a couple hours, so she wondered what to do.  I texted back to get busy doing barn chores until someone shows up.

The last substantive texting session with my other kid was January 19, when we were at a tournament at an unfamiliar high school, and I wanted to tell her where I had camped out to work, and "remind" her to do some homework between games.  I could have got up off my butt and told her the same, but I was lazy.  (This kid likes to send me a "have a nice day" text when she arrives at school each morning, but that is more of a good-bye kiss than anything else.  🙂 )

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

46 minutes ago, SKL said:

Meh.  My family doesn't have a "check-in" culture.  My kids never check in on their cell phones to let me know what is going on, so no, I do not feel uncomfortable when they don't.  The psychological response to this tool is a choice.

 

So all of a sudden there is a cultural change around something like giving kids autonomy, but it's all down to a bunch of people deciding at the same time that it is a good idea?

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

So all of a sudden there is a cultural change around something like giving kids autonomy, but it's all down to a bunch of people deciding at the same time that it is a good idea?

I think most people are more chill once their kids are middle-school age.  At least I don't hear people telling me I can't let my kids do xyz because (a) someone will take them or (b) someone will call the police.

Take this thread for example.  The vast majority of people see no issue with what the OP saw.

Some of the lack of autonomy is the structure of suburban neighborhoods - you can't walk to stuff and kids can't drive.  Public transportation doesn't meet the needs either.

And some of it is other entities afraid of being sued if they have unsupervised kids on their property.

Other than that, I do think most parents of kids over 10 or 12 (the usual age for cell phones) are deciding things based on what works for their specific situation.  Some folks are strict because their kid needs to be kept on a shorter leash; others are relaxed because they can be.

I personally notice this because I wanted to give my kids more independence / did not buy into the fear when they were younger, and I felt so much negativity and stress over it.  For the past year or so, I have noticed a change - nobody seems to be bothered whatever I decide for my own kids.  Yay!

[QueenCat]

16 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

So all of a sudden there is a cultural change around something like giving kids autonomy, but it's all down to a bunch of people deciding at the same time that it is a good idea?

 

I'd say the opposite. We've gotten to where kids have so little autonomy that they have a very hard time as young adults. Parents are starting to say "enough" and going back to giving that much-needed autonomy/independence that the overwhelming majority of kids need. It is used to be the norm for 8-10-year-olds to walk out of the house to play after breakfast and simply not show back up until lunch and then go back until dinner. I walked to school, about 3/4 of a mile, in kindergarten with a group of 5-8-year-olds. No adults until we got to the crossing guard by the school. Now, parents can't even deal with the bus & drive their kids' short distances... 

[Faith-manor]

21 hours ago, SKL said:

Despite having no cell phones, my folks somehow managed to be incredibly aware of what we were doing many blocks away from home - while they were at work.  I always wondered how total strangers managed to inform my parents.  I'd get home after a foolish frolic, having worked out "our story" with my siblings, and my folks would be standing there, fully in the know, ready dole out the punishment.  Man!  (Note, this was before I had responsibility for younger siblings.)

This! My parents owned a business and were swamped there, but they always knew what my brother was up to no matter how sneaky he was. I swear my grandparents who lived in town did nothing but keep a car we'd never seen under wraps someplace so they could drive around stalking him and then reporting back to my parents. It was UNCANNY.

LOL, I was at the piano practicing. My mother used to laugh that as long as there was a piano to babysit me, she could go on tour in Hawaii and leave me home entirely unattended with no worries at all. 

I never understood why my brother kept it up. The only thing I could think of us was some deep, burning desire to finally, just once pull one over on them, a victory of deception. It never worked. Ever. He left for college without meeting his goal, and then discovered that some how, some way, they had spies at college and knew what he was up to there as well! 

Crazy.

Now that said, we were a bit free range with our kiddoes. The boys went hiking without supervision on state land when they were 9, 11, and 12. I figured safety in numbers, and they had 12 mile walkie takies and I kept mine clipped to my jeans pocket here. I really didn't worry. So walking a few blocks at 9:30 at night would not be on my radar for danger unless there was a bad storm or something.

[shawthorne44]

On 2/5/2019 at 6:49 PM, Frances said:

My son started flying alone at age 8 to spend several weeks each summer with his various grandparents and great grandparents in the Midwest. One of the things he loved best about my small hometown was being allowed to walk several blocks by himself to the local grocery store to pick up forgotten items. Everyone on the route and working at the store knew my parents and their grandchildren, so he was very safe. He loved the feeling of being to help his grandma by quickly going to the store for her while she was cooking.

I loved walking to the store Saturday mornings for milk.  It started when we moved into that house when I was 8.5 years old.  There was a nearby gas station/small grocery store.   This was back when they reused milk bottles, so part of it was to make sure we got credit for the return.   I loved doing that.   Loved loved loved.   

My daughter had nightmares for two weeks after she heard a group of Blackhawk mothers attack me.    The OP is a Blackhawk mother.   For those that don't know Blackhawks attack other parents who aren't helicopter parents.  These women have had a lingering noticeable effect on my daughter.  She sometimes doubts herself and displays unwarranted fear,in situations where she was confident before.   
 

 

[TechWife]

On 2/6/2019 at 12:16 PM, SKL said:

Despite having no cell phones, my folks somehow managed to be incredibly aware of what we were doing many blocks away from home - while they were at work.  I always wondered how total strangers managed to inform my parents.  I'd get home after a foolish frolic, having worked out "our story" with my siblings, and my folks would be standing there, fully in the know, ready dole out the punishment.  Man!  (Note, this was before I had responsibility for younger siblings.)

You only thought they were total strangers! Someone always knows someone who knows who you are in a neighborhood, it seems!

[Bluegoat]

On 2/7/2019 at 10:49 AM, QueenCat said:

 

I'd say the opposite. We've gotten to where kids have so little autonomy that they have a very hard time as young adults. Parents are starting to say "enough" and going back to giving that much-needed autonomy/independence that the overwhelming majority of kids need. It is used to be the norm for 8-10-year-olds to walk out of the house to play after breakfast and simply not show back up until lunch and then go back until dinner. I walked to school, about 3/4 of a mile, in kindergarten with a group of 5-8-year-olds. No adults until we got to the crossing guard by the school. Now, parents can't even deal with the bus & drive their kids' short distances... 

 

Yeah, this is what I see too. And I think it's been pretty well documented too. I am now seeing some resistance, but it's still not normative for kids to have the freedom they did.

I do not buy that this change is just chance - there are IMO a number of threads that contribute to it.

[Targhee]

7 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yeah, this is what I see too. And I think it's been pretty well documented too. I am now seeing some resistance, but it's still not normative for kids to have the freedom they did.

I do not buy that this change is just chance - there are IMO a number of threads that contribute to it.

Perhaps one of them is people being hyper-critical of other's parenting?

[Bluegoat]

12 minutes ago, Targhee said:

Perhaps one of them is people being hyper-critical of other's parenting?

 

Yeah, I think so.  Though I wonder if people are that much more critical or it's more a matter of there is more variation in parenting styles?  Or that social media makes criticism seem that much more extreme. I think in the past people could be pretty nasty about those who made really different choices.  But I guess there will always be some like that - now there almost is a competitive parenting thing, it seems.  There is this thing now though that whenever something bad happens, there is this crazy desire to lay blame, and that makes people very overly cautious I think. Go out of your hotel room and your kids are kidnapped - obviously you aren't a good enough parent, no matter how rare such a thing is.

I think television and media are a significant issue, it makes people much more fearful and aware of rare cases, and the litigation culture, and also this sense people have developed that all risk can somehow be reduced to nothing, and should be, whatever the cost. (If it saves just one life, it's worth it...)  The tech to be constantly in touch with people to me also seems to be feeding into it.

[Frances]

On 2/6/2019 at 10:00 AM, Bluegoat said:

 

I think there is a huge difference psychologically between having to find a pay phone, or asking to use the phone at a place like the library - both of which were possibilities - and being able to text at any time.   

I think though that kids can get that independence and confidence even while having a cell phone. My son has always been quite independent and self confident and comfortable talking with adults. Getting a cell phone didn’t change any of that. Almost always he would figure things out for himself rather than calling or texting. 

[SanDiegoMom]

14 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

 

I think television and media are a significant issue, it makes people much more fearful and aware of rare cases, and the litigation culture, and also this sense people have developed that all risk can somehow be reduced to nothing, and should be, whatever the cost. (If it saves just one life, it's worth it...)  The tech to be constantly in touch with people to me also seems to be feeding into it.

THIS Absolutely.  We have a neighborhood facebook page and people post strange sightings, weird people they worried about, TEENS IN THE WOODS (oh no! There's literally nowhere else for teens to go around here, we don't even have a movie theater less than 30 min away due to traffic...) . But before social media no one would know at a neighborhood level what strange person they saw walking through.  it wouldn't have made the local news.

Regardless of this, I went ahead today and sent my 13 year old twins out to go play Pokemon Go on the trails. Of course it helps that they have cell phones, but I would have sent them out even without them. Maybe.  It is nice having cell phones:) 

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I loved walking to the store Saturday mornings for milk.  It started when we moved into that house when I was 8.5 years old.  There was a nearby gas station/small grocery store.   This was back when they reused milk bottles, so part of it was to make sure we got credit for the return.   I loved doing that.   Loved loved loved.   

My daughter had nightmares for two weeks after she heard a group of Blackhawk mothers attack me.    The OP is a Blackhawk mother.   For those that don't know Blackhawks attack other parents who aren't helicopter parents.  These women have had a lingering noticeable effect on my daughter.  She sometimes doubts herself and displays unwarranted fear,in situations where she was confident before.   
 

 

I just mapped it - we used to ride our bikes a half mile to the little convenience store, or to the ice cream parlor in the same shopping plaza. We were definitely in elementary school, which means I was maybe 10, and my sister would have been 6. 

No way would people in my area now let their kids do that, and it sucks. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yeah, I think so.  Though I wonder if people are that much more critical or it's more a matter of there is more variation in parenting styles?  Or that social media makes criticism seem that much more extreme. I think in the past people could be pretty nasty about those who made really different choices.  But I guess there will always be some like that - now there almost is a competitive parenting thing, it seems.  There is this thing now though that whenever something bad happens, there is this crazy desire to lay blame, and that makes people very overly cautious I think. Go out of your hotel room and your kids are kidnapped - obviously you aren't a good enough parent, no matter how rare such a thing is.

I think television and media are a significant issue, it makes people much more fearful and aware of rare cases, and the litigation culture, and also this sense people have developed that all risk can somehow be reduced to nothing, and should be, whatever the cost. (If it saves just one life, it's worth it...)  The tech to be constantly in touch with people to me also seems to be feeding into it.

I have never cared what some random person thought of my parenting. I never have been a perfect parent but I feel like I have done ok and I own my parenting choices. But- what has concerned me over the years is a phenomenon that I didn’t see when I grew up many years ago- the threat or even reality of parents calling the authorities on other parents for parenting differences. I am not talking about responding to actual abuse or neglect but simple parenting differences. I actually think that this thread is a case in point because even though the OP said that she didn’t or wouldn’t call CPS, she still got between a parent and their children. 

[shawthorne44]

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I just mapped it - we used to ride our bikes a half mile to the little convenience store, or to the ice cream parlor in the same shopping plaza. We were definitely in elementary school, which means I was maybe 10, and my sister would have been 6. 

No way would people in my area now let their kids do that, and it sucks. 

 

And the result is the Snowflake Generation.  

[happi duck]

@SanDiegoMom in VA

Think about giving the "oh no! There are teens in the woods" people a bit of a break.  There's a big chance that their experiences are much different than yours.

40ish years ago: I grew up a block from the woods and "teens in the woods" was a big problem.  It made the trails and such way less usable and sort of scary.

15ish years ago: When dc(ya) were little they were in a club that did service projects.  "Trail/woods clean-up" had to be changed because of needles and condoms.

1 year ago: Our church property has a portion that is wooded.  The police contacted the church that those woods had become the place for teens to party, complete with using and selling drugs.

(I wouldn't be a jerk about it but my experiences would cause me to consider giving a heads up.  I wouldn't assume the worst but know that it happens.  If somebody said "I've been seeing a bunch of teens heading into the woods" that would be meaningful information to me.)

Just my two cents.

[unsinkable]

A lot of freedom to go places has to do with infrastructure safety, too. There are some suburbs with no sidewalks and kids would have to walk or ride more than a mile just to exit the subdivision, then maybe they're lucky if they have a corner store worth riding to.

I grew up in a city and as a child I could walk to a meat market, donut shop, candy store, grocery, drug store, bakery, library, bank...all in less than 10 minutes. And I did! 

The neighborhood where my kids grew up had 2 parks, skating rink, library, pool, corner store and 2 pizza shops they were allowed to ride or walk to. And they did!

In contrast, my DH grew up in a farm, on a 55 mph country road. There was no where to walk to, plus riding or walking on it was dangerous. 

[frogger]

On 2/6/2019 at 9:16 AM, SKL said:

Well just because my kid may be able to text / call is no guarantee of what my response (if any) is going to be.

Personally I got my kids phones for my own convenience and flexibility.

 

 

 

I did too. The problem is none of my teens are attached to their phone. I remember being at the store and trying to get ahold of someone at my house to see if we had enough of something. I called all 5 people at my home and didn't get a single answer.

 

They take after me though. They often don't get an answer when they call me so I can't really complain.

[Mbelle]

My 16ds walks to the gym 3x a week.  It is in the mornings during normal school hours.  He was stopped by the police last week.  They just asked him what he was doing and where he lived.  We live in a somewhat walkable area, so now I have a note he can put in his backpack if he's going to be out during school hours.

I would let my 9 or 10 year old walk down the street home or to the neighbors in both in day and night as long as I know about it.  My 16yo can walk pretty much wherever he wants.  He's not one to go looking for trouble, so I know he's just going to grab a lunch or ice cream or whatever.