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Community college inappropriateness vent


Murphy101
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15 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

Has the professor required this before and gotten away with it? As a 30-something year old, I would refuse to participate if it were me taking the class. That's absurd. I would *hope* that the community college doesn't know what's going on and that if they did, they'd put the kabosh on this little requirement of his. 

me too! I would never go on such a trip.   I'm 55.  I'd go to the head of the department and then the dean.  That is ridiculously inappropriate.  

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2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

My mom was in healthcare for many years, and said therapists in her experience were either very grounded people, or nutcases who became interested in helping others because of their own problems.  That's been my more limited experience too - the one therapist I go to church with in particular is a complete nutter - utterly unable to cope with any conflict or even disagreement, and regularly completely misunderstands what other people are saying or the dynamics of an interpersonal situation.  I have no idea how she functions in her job.

While this is my own profession (and I am hoping I don't fall on the nutter side 😂) I have to completely agree with you. Having to oversee fledgling therapists and even seasoned ones, I was floored at how many needed therapy themselves. I actually went to our Dean in college because I had someone so absolutely insane in my cohort that I was terrified of her graduating with a degree to counsel people. Of course they let her and now she is out there somewhere "helping" people. Therapists need to be more tightly regulated and scrutinized to be honest. 

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8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've been watching some youtube videos of therapists for the specific things I'm working on with my therapist.  some are good (a couple in particular seem quite good, though one is youngish), and some are "not worth my time".  but one thing I notice repeatedly, many mention they see a therapist for their own issues.  what does that say about why they went into counseling/psychology?

 

My dad is a pastor and has done his share of counseling. He thinks that everyone who is a therapist/works intensely with people who have major problems should have their own therapist. Not because of their own issues, but because of the mental/emotional burdens that come from helping others. There are a lot of people in the helping professions in my family. A lot of them really hurt when their clients hurt. And seeing hurting people all day long can take it's toll.

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11 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Speaking as the "complete nutter" in this scenario, I can only speak for myself. I am attempting to go back to school to become a psych nurse practitioner (after being on disability for bipolar disorder for ten years) because I deeply empathize with psych patients (which I can tell you is in massively short supply in healthcare -- yes, we are not always easy to deal with), and because I actually hope that I can use my experience (I said experience, not my "problems") to help others learn to treat their chronic mental illnesses. I am inspired by people like clinical psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison at Johns Hopkins, who was able to manage bipolar and use her experience to become a leader in her field. 

I also want to point out the obvious stigma here. If someone had a heart condition or T1 diabetes, and went on to become a cardiothoracic surgeon or endocrinologist, no one would say that they were trying to help people because of their own problems. We would likely laud their inspirational stories. But when it is psych, it is somehow different. I have to keep things quiet because, as evidenced here, we think it is perfectly acceptable to use people's medical histories in this kind of pejorative and stigmatizing way. Trust me, I am the first to do it to myself, and it holds me back constantly. For example, I asked myself: is it ok for me to work in a psych unit where I was once a patient? Why not? Why is this different from the heart patient? Why does it feel different? Ever wonder why psych patients continue to 'play the victim'? Maybe it's in large part because society won't stop stigmatizing us for our illnesses.

 

It says that they are aware enough to know that they are going to need good boundaries to do this kind of work. It is incredibly emotionally demanding, and all the more so if you are not the most genetically blessed in the neurotransmitter department. And you can bet your ass that, if I am successful in my program, I will be seeing a therapist on a very regular basis to process and work through the feelings and issues that I will no doubt encounter at work. Every single professional that I have spoken with about this has said that I am wise to see these issues in advance, and to be prepared for them.

Coming from this profession I will say a heart issue and a mental health issue are not the same. You have to use the very organ that might not be working properly to do the job. The job is demanding, emotionally draining. It is easy for someone mentally healthy to not take on and over identify with their patient. It is constant vigilance and toggling between rock solid boundaries while being a person's most trusted friend and confidant. It is the hardest job I have ever done and I was in science before my career switch. I am so happy to hear your commitment to therapy for yourself. This will keep your blindspots on your radar. You sound aware and capable but I promise you, not everyone with mental health struggles could do well in this field so while stigmas may feel hurtful, they exist in this profession to protect the incredibly vulnerable people being helped.

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8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've been watching some youtube videos of therapists for the specific things I'm working on with my therapist.  some are good (a couple in particular seem quite good, though one is youngish), and some are "not worth my time".  but one thing I notice repeatedly, many mention they see a therapist for their own issues.  what does that say about why they went into counseling/psychology?

I don't have a problem with therapists seeing a therapist for their own issues. They are not perfect - sometimes they have bad marriages, hard children, difficult time with their own addictions, and on and on. There is no shame in seeing a therapist. In fact, it is quite healthy. I am not in favor of a mentally unstable person providing therapy and would find that unethical, but the mere fact that someone sees a therapist is not evidence of instability. In fact, it can be evidence of wisdom and maturity.

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10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I had a very long and detailed convo with 17 yr old late tonight.  

The teacher was discussing ethics in psychological experiments in what appears to be a very stupid and unethical manner.  The teacher said she had to study strip clubs in grad school and was explaining that she thought it would be a very good idea if her students gave it try too.  After all, they are all adults and they might find it an entertaining psychological study. And she'd love to discuss it with them in class if they did do that.  To which, my kid sitting in the front row quietly muttered a relieved sentiment that she's glad to not be an adult yet. And the teacher acted shocked and laughed that well she'd be 18 eventually and maybe some classmates would take her for her birthday. Just wtf.

So... it's unprofessional as both a psychologist and a teacher.  But it was not an actual requirement of class.  

Dd and I discussed how that wasn't ethical.  If the woman actually studied this in grad school, she should know that encouraging exploitation and degradation as some kind of "fun" experiment is not okay.  She has no way of knowing what such actions could lead to for those students, but as a family and marriage therapist profession, ( I was WHAT?! When I saw that.), she should know it is rarely beneficial to the health of any of the people involved or in relationships with those involved.

We also discussed how if this continues or gets worse, the various ways to deal with that. 

Just ugh.  Proof that a degree, even a masters, doesn't make a person smart or ethical. *smh*

Wow, what a jackass of a professor! Seriously one shouldn't discuss ethics or teach ethics when one does not possess any oneself!

Go acquire some decent ethics, and then talk to the students.

Yes, degrees do not mean a person has any ethics, common sense, appropriateness, or social intelligence!

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13 minutes ago, TABmom said:

 

My dad is a pastor and has done his share of counseling. He thinks that everyone who is a therapist/works intensely with people who have major problems should have their own therapist. Not because of their own issues, but because of the mental/emotional burdens that come from helping others. There are a lot of people in the helping professions in my family. A lot of them really hurt when their clients hurt. And seeing hurting people all day long can take it's toll.

My state require this for licenses therapists and psychologists. My own PTSD therapist has her own professional that she sees three or four times a year to vent about her job ad get an objective opinion, make sure she isn't over identifying or getting emotionally involved with patients, etc. I think that is a very healthy requirement.

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10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I had a very long and detailed convo with 17 yr old late tonight.  

The teacher was discussing ethics in psychological experiments in what appears to be a very stupid and unethical manner.  The teacher said she had to study strip clubs in grad school and was explaining that she thought it would be a very good idea if her students gave it try too.  After all, they are all adults and they might find it an entertaining psychological study. And she'd love to discuss it with them in class if they did do that.  To which, my kid sitting in the front row quietly muttered a relieved sentiment that she's glad to not be an adult yet. And the teacher acted shocked and laughed that well she'd be 18 eventually and maybe some classmates would take her for her birthday. Just wtf.

So... it's unprofessional as both a psychologist and a teacher.  But it was not an actual requirement of class.  

Dd and I discussed how that wasn't ethical.  If the woman actually studied this in grad school, she should know that encouraging exploitation and degradation as some kind of "fun" experiment is not okay.  She has no way of knowing what such actions could lead to for those students, but as a family and marriage therapist profession, ( I was WHAT?! When I saw that.), she should know it is rarely beneficial to the health of any of the people involved or in relationships with those involved.

We also discussed how if this continues or gets worse, the various ways to deal with that. 

Just ugh.  Proof that a degree, even a masters, doesn't make a person smart or ethical. *smh*

Well that's a relief that it isn't really a requirement but the whole discussion seems really weird.

Ds loved psychology classes and took two from the same prof when he was doing DE even though the second one only counted as an elective. They did have some interesting discussions but as far as I know there weren't any that were truly inappropriate. Maybe he was just embarrassed to discuss them with me but I don't think he would have liked the professor as much if she was inappropriate at all. Eventually he ended up having her husband as his professor when he took German.

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12 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I don't have a problem with therapists seeing a therapist for their own issues. They are not perfect - sometimes they have bad marriages, hard children, difficult time with their own addictions, and on and on. There is no shame in seeing a therapist. In fact, it is quite healthy. I am not in favor of a mentally unstable person providing therapy and would find that unethical, but the mere fact that someone sees a therapist is not evidence of instability. In fact, it can be evidence of wisdom and maturity.

I only recently watched The Sopranos and this post made me think of therapist Dr. Melfie seeing a therapist herself and talking about her Soprano patient. 🙂 

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18 minutes ago, nixpix5 said:

While this is my own profession (and I am hoping I don't fall on the nutter side 😂) I have to completely agree with you. Having to oversee fledgling therapists and even seasoned ones, I was floored at how many needed therapy themselves. I actually went to our Dean in college because I had someone so absolutely insane in my cohort that I was terrified of her graduating with a degree to counsel people. Of course they let her and now she is out there somewhere "helping" people. Therapists need to be more tightly regulated and scrutinized to be honest. 

 

We have been seeing a wonderful therapist for over a year. But it took FOUR bad ones to find a good one. 

Having mentally unstable people going to mentally unstable people for life trauma help is NOT a good thing. 

That is just what should be an obvious fact but like common sense, doesn’t seem to be so. 

That doesn’t mean therapist should not seek therapy.  They absolutely should so they can cope with their job and for professional development. But that’s with the proviso that they have their own mental house in order and are looking for support in maintaining or building on to that house.

I wouldn’t hire a lawn service who’s own lawn looks like a health hazzard.  I wouldn’t hire a contractor who’s house looks like it’s one stiff breeze from collapse. I wouldn’t want a heart dr or Endo who doesn’t make sure their own heart and diabetis is maintained as best possible. And yeah, there are a lot of therapists who have no business advising or guiding anyone else until they find a way out of their own paper bag.

There’s no shame in seeking help. But there needs to be no shame in admitting empathy does not always make a good career choice either. 

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4 minutes ago, nixpix5 said:

Coming from this profession I will say a heart issue and a mental health issue are not the same. You have to use the very organ that might not be working properly to do the job. The job is demanding, emotionally draining. It is easy for someone mentally healthy to not take on and over identify with their patient. It is constant vigilance and toggling between rock solid boundaries while being a person's most trusted friend and confidant. It is the hardest job I have ever done and I was in science before my career switch. I am so happy to hear your commitment to therapy for yourself. This will keep your blindspots on your radar. You sound aware and capable but I promise you, not everyone with mental health struggles could do well in this field so while stigmas may feel hurtful, they exist in this profession to protect the incredibly vulnerable people being helped.


A well managed, medically-compliant heart patient and mental health patient can very much look the same. So too, if the heart patient or diabetic isn't med/lifestyle compliant, it isn't long before her health issues will prevent her from doing her job. And, even the most med-compliant T1 can have scary overnight lows that require vigilance, perhaps even a service animal who can help smell the low and awaken (not unlike the psych patient having a support system on alert for erratic or unusual behavior). The most med-compliant psych pt may also have periods where she may need to make med adjustments, see her pdoc/therapist more often, and take greater time for self care. It is managing a chronic disease. They have more in common than meets the eye, and both professionals have much to offer their patients because of their lived experiences, if we can get past the stigma.

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6 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

We have been seeing a wonderful therapist for over a year. But it took FOUR bad ones to find a good one. 

Having mentally unstable people going to mentally unstable people for life trauma help is NOT a good thing. 

That is just what should be an obvious fact but like common sense, doesn’t seem to be so. 

That doesn’t mean therapist should not seek therapy.  They absolutely should so they can cope with their job and for professional development. But that’s with the proviso that they have their own mental house in order and are looking for support in maintaining or building on to that house.

I wouldn’t hire a lawn service who’s own lawn looks like a health hazzard.  I wouldn’t hire a contractor who’s house looks like it’s one stiff breeze from collapse. I wouldn’t want a heart dr or Endo who doesn’t make sure their own heart and diabetis is maintained as best possible. And yeah, there are a lot of therapists who have no business advising or guiding anyone else until they find a way out of their own paper bag.

There’s no shame in seeking help. But there needs to be no shame in admitting empathy does not always make a good career choice either. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Redfield_Jamison

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21 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

We have been seeing a wonderful therapist for over a year. But it took FOUR bad ones to find a good one. 

Having mentally unstable people going to mentally unstable people for life trauma help is NOT a good thing. 

That is just what should be an obvious fact but like common sense, doesn’t seem to be so. 

That doesn’t mean therapist should not seek therapy.  They absolutely should so they can cope with their job and for professional development. But that’s with the proviso that they have their own mental house in order and are looking for support in maintaining or building on to that house.

I wouldn’t hire a lawn service who’s own lawn looks like a health hazzard.  I wouldn’t hire a contractor who’s house looks like it’s one stiff breeze from collapse. I wouldn’t want a heart dr or Endo who doesn’t make sure their own heart and diabetis is maintained as best possible. And yeah, there are a lot of therapists who have no business advising or guiding anyone else until they find a way out of their own paper bag.

There’s no shame in seeking help. But there needs to be no shame in admitting empathy does not always make a good career choice either. 

 

How about her? Too nuts to be a lawyer. ETA: Sorry, that was rude. I know that I am touchy about this. I just really want to show how people with some very serious mental health issues have been able to manage them (with a lot of help!) and go on to have some pretty amazing careers. It is possible. We need to hear more of these stories.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyn_Saks

Edited by SeaConquest
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36 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Speaking as the "complete nutter" in this scenario, I can only speak for myself. I am attempting to go back to school to become a psych nurse practitioner (after being on disability for bipolar disorder for ten years) because I deeply empathize with psych patients (which I can tell you is in massively short supply in healthcare -- yes, we are not always easy to deal with), and because I actually hope that I can use my experience (I said experience, not my "problems") to help others learn to treat their chronic mental illnesses. I am inspired by people like clinical psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison at Johns Hopkins, who was able to manage bipolar and use her experience to become a leader in her field. 

I also want to point out the obvious stigma here. If someone had a heart condition or T1 diabetes, and went on to become a cardiothoracic surgeon or endocrinologist, no one would say that they were trying to help people because of their own problems. We would likely laud their inspirational stories. But when it is psych, it is somehow different. I have to keep things quiet because, as evidenced here, we think it is perfectly acceptable to use people's medical histories in this kind of pejorative and stigmatizing way. Trust me, I am the first to do it to myself, and it holds me back constantly. For example, I asked myself: is it ok for me to work in a psych unit where I was once a patient? Why not? Why is this different from the heart patient? Why does it feel different? Ever wonder why psych patients continue to 'play the victim'? Maybe it's in large part because society won't stop stigmatizing us for our illnesses.

 

It says that they are aware enough to know that they are going to need good boundaries to do this kind of work. It is incredibly emotionally demanding, and all the more so if you are not the most genetically blessed in the neurotransmitter department. And you can bet your ass that, if I am successful in my program, I will be seeing a therapist on a very regular basis to process and work through the feelings and issues that I will no doubt encounter at work. Every single professional that I have spoken with about this has said that I am wise to see these issues in advance, and to be prepared for them.

I dont' know who used the "nutter" appellation - I know it wasn't me.  my mother was schizophrenic.

I do call my mil nuts.  she's manipulative, extremely contrary for the sake of being contrary, compulsive spender, hoarder. . . she's downright toxic.  she will deny anything is wrong with her.  (I also believe her father was abusive, and that she has a "broken brain".  that part I can have compassion for.) she got a masters in counseling to help bil. (i'm positive he was schizophrenic.  the scary kind. he saw a pysch once, and threatened her about ever seeing one again.)  she never, ever applied any of it to herself.  she considers herself fine.  she worked in a locked psych unit, and her kids would razz her to not lose the key, or they wouldn't be able to differentiate her from her patients.

17 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I don't have a problem with therapists seeing a therapist for their own issues. They are not perfect - sometimes they have bad marriages, hard children, difficult time with their own addictions, and on and on. There is no shame in seeing a therapist. In fact, it is quite healthy. I am not in favor of a mentally unstable person providing therapy and would find that unethical, but the mere fact that someone sees a therapist is not evidence of instability. In fact, it can be evidence of wisdom and maturity.

you are one who has brought up some good points that it gives a therapist an opportunity for "3rd party reality checks" as they listen to so much.  there are valid reasons - and considering I'm seeing a therapist right now for childhood trauma and abuse, I certainly don't see it as shameful!

but there are unstable people in the field.  and egotistical ones. (a friend's daughter's psychiatrist dismissed her physical symptoms by sarcastically mocking her "you think you have a brain tumor?"  he was dismissing her headaches, not asking a question.  she had a *massive* brain tumor when it was finally diagnosed. it nearly killed her.)

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3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:


A well managed, medically-compliant heart patient and mental health patient can very much look the same. So too, if the heart patient or diabetic isn't med/lifestyle compliant, it isn't long before her health issues will prevent her from doing her job. And, even the most med-compliant T1 can have scary overnight lows that require vigilance, perhaps even a service animal who can help smell the low and awaken (not unlike the psych patient having a support system on alert for erratic or unusual behavior). The most med-compliant psych pt may also have periods where she may need to make med adjustments, see her pdoc/therapist more often, and take greater time for self care. It is managing a chronic disease. They have more in common than meets the eye, and both professionals have much to offer their patients because of their lived experiences, if we can get past the stigma.

All of this. I read the book When Breath Becomes Air with my book club a few years ago. It's a about a neurosurgeon who is diagnosed with cancer and the memoir is partly about his cancer and partly about what makes life worth living. Most reviews praise it and the author. I thought he was awfully arrogant to continue his career in neurosurgery when he was in ill health. He almost caused a serious problem to a patient while performing brain surgery when he shouldn't have even been near an operating room. I think I was the only one at book club who felt that way. I did feel sorry for him and his family but I didn't find it at all inspiring. Rather the opposite.

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17 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

My 17 yr old came home from her intro to psychology class really upset because her teacher put her on the spot as to blame for why the class wouldn’t be able to go on a “field trip” to a strip club. With 5 kids and 8 years of classes there, we have never had such an outlandish issue with a teacher before. There is zero educational or professional value to such a requirement in an introduction to psychology course.  Very confrontation adverse 17 yr old is very upset that in a month at 18th bday the teacher will require it. I pointed out the teacher cannot require this and someone should report this unprofessionalism as a teacher and a psychologist.

And before someone goes off about how that’s just how colleges/community colleges are - that’s just bull.  This isn’t our first or tenth experience and never have encountered such before.  Maybe talking about strip clubs in conversations around them, but never had a teacher suggest something unethical as a grade requirement.

 

Your child needs to make a complaint to the dean; that request is totally inappropriate and discussing her student status with others likely violates FERPA.

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23 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

Your child needs to make a complaint to the dean; that request is totally inappropriate and discussing her student status with others likely violates FERPA.

 

I agree that the entire idea of students visiting a strip club for any reason is not ethical and just awful.

However, in this case FERPA is not in play. A student's birth date is part of what is classified as "directory information," and since age can be derived from birth date, it is not part of the protected student record.

"FERPA permits a school non-consensually to disclose personally identifiable information from a student's education records when such information has been appropriately designated as directory information. "Directory information" is defined as information contained in the education records of a student that would not generally be considered harmful or an invasion of privacy if disclosed. Directory information could include information such as the student's name, address, e-mail address, telephone listing, date and place of birth, major field of study, participation in officially recognized activities and sports, weight and height of members of athletic teams, dates of attendance, degrees and awards received, the most recent previous educational agency or institution attended, photograph, grade level (such as 11th grade or junior year), and enrollment status (full-time or part-time)." (quote from Dept. of Education ).

 

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53 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

How about her? Too nuts to be a lawyer. ETA: Sorry, that was rude. I know that I am touchy about this. I just really want to show how people with some very serious mental health issues have been able to manage them (with a lot of help!) and go on to have some pretty amazing careers. It is possible. We need to hear more of these stories.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyn_Saks

 

What about her? I don’t think you are reading me accurately. I never said someone with mental illness can’t be a good therapist.   I said I don’t want to have the person helping me with my hot mess be someone who is not able to cope with their own hot mess at the same time. I said empathy is not enough to make a good therapist. They can have all the empathy and experience in the world and still super suck at helping others deal with it. None of that means that no one who has btdt in whatever aspect of life is therefore unfit to help others in similiar situation.  It means just having btdt is not necessarily enough to make them good at helping others. 

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I dont' know who used the "nutter" appellation - I know it wasn't me.  my mother was schizophrenic.

I do call my mil nuts.  she's manipulative, extremely contrary for the sake of being contrary, compulsive spender, hoarder. . . she's downright toxic.  she will deny anything is wrong with her.  (I also believe her father was abusive, and that she has a "broken brain".  that part I can have compassion for.) she got a masters in counseling to help bil. (i'm positive he was schizophrenic.  the scary kind. he saw a pysch once, and threatened her about ever seeing one again.)  she never, ever applied any of it to herself.  she considers herself fine.  she worked in a locked psych unit, and her kids would razz her to not lose the key, or they wouldn't be able to differentiate her from her patients.

you are one who has brought up some good points that it gives a therapist an opportunity for "3rd party reality checks" as they listen to so much.  there are valid reasons - and considering I'm seeing a therapist right now for childhood trauma and abuse, I certainly don't see it as shameful!

but there are unstable people in the field.  and egotistical ones. (a friend's daughter's psychiatrist dismissed her physical symptoms by sarcastically mocking her "you think you have a brain tumor?"  he was dismissing her headaches, not asking a question.  she had a *massive* brain tumor when it was finally diagnosed. it nearly killed her.)

 

This. This x 1000. 

Some psychologists should not be in medical care, which mental health is a part of, because their needs are equal to or greater than the needs of their clients.  It’s like an emergency plane landing. The therapist needs to be sure they have their own oxygen mask on before they starting looking around trying to help others put one on. There’s too many therapists out there who not only aren’t making sure their mask is on first, they seem in denial of the exisitance of both the plane and the emergency landing situation, but they really want to help.  That’s not good. That’s very very bad for everyone involved. 

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10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've been watching some youtube videos of therapists for the specific things I'm working on with my therapist.  some are good (a couple in particular seem quite good, though one is youngish), and some are "not worth my time".  but one thing I notice repeatedly, many mention they see a therapist for their own issues.  what does that say about why they went into counseling/psychology?

 

Therapists are actually supposed to get therapy themselves to keep their own perspective straight. I have a good friend who is a therapist and also a recovering alcoholic, and she says it's essential for her. I consider her to be pretty grounded, but she feels she needs it.

Our family sees another therapist in her 70's who told me once that she hadn't done it herself in awhile, but she's been in the "business" for a long time and is a pro.

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15 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I had a very long and detailed convo with 17 yr old late tonight.  

The teacher was discussing ethics in psychological experiments in what appears to be a very stupid and unethical manner.  The teacher said she had to study strip clubs in grad school and was explaining that she thought it would be a very good idea if her students gave it try too.  After all, they are all adults and they might find it an entertaining psychological study. And she'd love to discuss it with them in class if they did do that.  To which, my kid sitting in the front row quietly muttered a relieved sentiment that she's glad to not be an adult yet. And the teacher acted shocked and laughed that well she'd be 18 eventually and maybe some classmates would take her for her birthday. Just wtf.

So... it's unprofessional as both a psychologist and a teacher.  But it was not an actual requirement of class.  

Dd and I discussed how that wasn't ethical.  If the woman actually studied this in grad school, she should know that encouraging exploitation and degradation as some kind of "fun" experiment is not okay.  She has no way of knowing what such actions could lead to for those students, but as a family and marriage therapist profession, ( I was WHAT?! When I saw that.), she should know it is rarely beneficial to the health of any of the people involved or in relationships with those involved.

We also discussed how if this continues or gets worse, the various ways to deal with that. 

Just ugh.  Proof that a degree, even a masters, doesn't make a person smart or ethical. *smh*

Nopers.  That's a big time Title IX problem right there.  If she doesn't want to go alone to report it (and I hope she does) she should get others from the class to go with her.  My husband (a tenured professor) reported two professors, one for similar behavior and one who made it a point to attempt to sleep with his (male) students on an overseas trip as well as force them to work on his election campaign.

If she needs to talk to someone about this, my husband would be more than willing to help her understand her rights.

I'm sorry she is having this experience.  There are so many good professors out there; these really stink up the profession.

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5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Speaking as the "complete nutter" in this scenario, I can only speak for myself. I am attempting to go back to school to become a psych nurse practitioner (after being on disability for bipolar disorder for ten years) because I deeply empathize with psych patients (which I can tell you is in massively short supply in healthcare -- yes, we are not always easy to deal with), and because I actually hope that I can use my experience (I said experience, not my "problems") to help others learn to treat their chronic mental illnesses. I am inspired by people like clinical psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison at Johns Hopkins, who was able to manage bipolar and use her experience to become a leader in her field. 

I also want to point out the obvious stigma here. If someone had a heart condition or T1 diabetes, and went on to become a cardiothoracic surgeon or endocrinologist, no one would say that they were trying to help people because of their own problems. We would likely laud their inspirational stories. But when it is psych, it is somehow different. I have to keep things quiet because, as evidenced here, we think it is perfectly acceptable to use people's medical histories in this kind of pejorative and stigmatizing way. Trust me, I am the first to do it to myself, and it holds me back constantly. For example, I asked myself: is it ok for me to work in a psych unit where I was once a patient? Why not? Why is this different from the heart patient? Why does it feel different? Ever wonder why psych patients continue to 'play the victim'? Maybe it's in large part because society won't stop stigmatizing us for our illnesses.

...

 

If people with mental health issues are able to go into being therapists and be good at it, that is great.  I have no problem understanding why they would be inspired to do so.  And many people with mental health problems aren't nutters at all and are just fine to do something like that.

It doesn't particularly follow that there are not plenty of people so inspired that aren't really suited for it because of their mental health issues.

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5 hours ago, TechWife said:

I don't have a problem with therapists seeing a therapist for their own issues. They are not perfect - sometimes they have bad marriages, hard children, difficult time with their own addictions, and on and on. There is no shame in seeing a therapist. In fact, it is quite healthy. I am not in favor of a mentally unstable person providing therapy and would find that unethical, but the mere fact that someone sees a therapist is not evidence of instability. In fact, it can be evidence of wisdom and maturity.

 

I actually thought it was pretty standard for all therapists to have a therapist - the Jungians do it that way, anyway.  And priests, for much the same reason, always have spiritual advisors/confessors to help them manage the personal toll of their work.

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5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:


A well managed, medically-compliant heart patient and mental health patient can very much look the same. So too, if the heart patient or diabetic isn't med/lifestyle compliant, it isn't long before her health issues will prevent her from doing her job. And, even the most med-compliant T1 can have scary overnight lows that require vigilance, perhaps even a service animal who can help smell the low and awaken (not unlike the psych patient having a support system on alert for erratic or unusual behavior). The most med-compliant psych pt may also have periods where she may need to make med adjustments, see her pdoc/therapist more often, and take greater time for self care. It is managing a chronic disease. They have more in common than meets the eye, and both professionals have much to offer their patients because of their lived experiences, if we can get past the stigma.

 

Mental health issues are not just about managing medication for many people.  Someone unable to communicate, someone who can't cope, who can't differentiate their own issues, who aren't secure in themselves, are not going to be able to do anyone any good.  Very likely the opposite. 

I have plenty of family members with mental health issues - some are also nutters.  My dad is both - bi-polar ad BPD.  Even if he was otherwise suited, those things would be complete barriers to any sort of work like that.

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14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I dropped out of my masters counselling degree in the first week because I was terrified at the prospect of providing therapy, and on consideration, thought that I probably erred on the nutter side. But maybe the true nutters don't have that degree of self reflection 🙂

 

Again, I am not sure what to make of this statement. Psychiatric nurse practitioners are trained in both medication management *and* therapy (I have already completed three graduate level nursing classes through this program: https://und.edu/programs/psychiatric-mental-health-nurse-practitioner-ms/requirements.html). So, does my lack of self-reflection qualify me as one of the true nutters?

The stigmatizing in this thread (by well-educated people, no less) astounds me (and saddens me).

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I will add that i just returned from a routine appointment with my psychiatrist. He and I had a 45 minute discussion about our plan for how we are going to tackle my first "official" term in nursing school (I had been taking pre-reqs and grad level classes prior to this). I take my meds every day, have been through years and years of therapy, and work hard with my doctors and support system to do my part to manage a chronic condition. I have been on disability for over a decade after my doctor pulled the plug on my career in a large corporate law firm. I am walking away from a $3600/month tax-free guaranteed annuity for the rest of my life to return to work because I think I am mentally healthy enough to do this, and because I think I have something that I can contribute to help others. To have that effort denigrated and stigmatized here of all places -- when my confidence has already been shattered -- is seriously disheartening. 

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2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I will add that i just returned from a routine appointment with my psychiatrist. He and I had a 45 minute discussion about our plan for how we are going to tackle my first "official" term in nursing school (I had been taking pre-reqs and grad level classes prior to this). I take my meds every day, have been through years and years of therapy, and work hard with my doctors and support system to do my part to manage a chronic condition. I have been on disability for over a decade after my doctor pulled the plug on my career in a large corporate law firm. I am walking away from a $3600/month tax-free guaranteed annuity for the rest of my life to return to work because I think I am mentally healthy enough to do this, and because I think I have something that I can contribute to help others. To have that effort denigrated and stigmatized here of all places -- when my confidence has already been shattered -- is seriously disheartening. 

 

No one is denigrating and stigmatising you. None of us know what you are like, really - how could we be saying anything about you?  

Do you really believe that there are not people unsuited to being therapists because they don't have the right kind of mental stability or ability to self-reflect? Or that none of them ever end up inappropriately working as therapists?

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2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

"Nutter' where I am is colloquial. A perfectly sane person can be a complete nutter.  Often used to refer to politicians. A therapist I had once who was really into the idea that you'd have a mental breakdown at the same ages as when your mother had undergone any dificult experience was a nutter. Irrationally attached to non-evidence based theory.  But she was quite sane. 

I'm 100% in favour of persons with lived experience, whose mental health issues are effectively treated, being able to work in mental heath fields, and believe they can bring a very useful perspective to the sector. 

My dd has a mental illness, which is now effectively treated, is in her final year of nursing, hopes to work on the psych ward at some stage, and will be a real asset. 

My apologies if the term is used differently in the US. 

 

it's about the same in the US.  nut-job = whackadoodle.  etc. someone who is otherwise sane, but completely irrational.  (at least in one area.)

- my mother had schizophrenia. (and even though I think she was a lousy mother, I wouldn't call her a nutter.  she was good about taking her meds, though I dont' think she was receiving a good regimen.)  I'm currently in therapy for CEN, and CPTSD.

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12 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Speaking as the "complete nutter" in this scenario, I can only speak for myself. I am attempting to go back to school to become a psych nurse practitioner (after being on disability for bipolar disorder for ten years) because I deeply empathize with psych patients (which I can tell you is in massively short supply in healthcare -- yes, we are not always easy to deal with), and because I actually hope that I can use my experience (I said experience, not my "problems") to help others learn to treat their chronic mental illnesses. I am inspired by people like clinical psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison at Johns Hopkins, who was able to manage bipolar and use her experience to become a leader in her field. 

 

 

I have a friend who wanted to be a nurse practitioner providing therapy in the mental health field. I was surprised.  She's never been very empathetic.  When she had a misunderstanding with a mutual friend, the mutual friend was mature and wanted them to sit together and work through the issue.  My friend flat out refused and said her way of dealing with things is to just ignore them and let them blow over.  When I asked her why she wanted to work in the mental health field she said, "People do the craziest things and I just want to know why they do the things they do.  What makes them tick?"  And I was thinking, "Oh goodness, her poor patients in the future," and I sincerely hoped that she would be weeded out as a therapist.  She'd have been a horrible counselor.  No empathy, resistant to a mature conversation, and only going into the field to satisfy her curiosity about people. (ETA: She didn't get into the nursing program she wanted to get into...so she won't be a therapist in the mental health field.)

I would much rather have a therapist going into the field because she actually wants to help and she understands what the patient is going through.  If the person is very clear about what they're doing, and has support for themselves, then I think it's better than people going in for selfish reasons who have no empathy at all.

 

11 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Having mentally unstable people going to mentally unstable people for life trauma help is NOT a good thing. 

That is just what should be an obvious fact but like common sense, doesn’t seem to be so. 

That doesn’t mean therapist should not seek therapy.  They absolutely should so they can cope with their job and for professional development. But that’s with the proviso that they have their own mental house in order and are looking for support in maintaining or building on to that house.

 

With what I said above, there is also this.  If a person isn't absolutely sure that their own mental health issues are tightly under control, then they should not be leading others.  We have been looking for a new church recently, and we visited one where the pastor and his wife co-preach and co-pastor.  When we were there that day, the pastor was home in a deep depression over his father's death, and his wife was preaching, and as part of her preaching, she told us how much she loves to be the center of attention and how she was diagnosed with bipolar recently.  They are probably wonderful people, and I'm positive they understand what it's like to be a hurting person and are very empathetic and caring to people who need their help, but I didn't want to start going to a church where the leaders' issues aren't solidly under control.  The pastor was literally unable to get out of bed from depression and the co-pastor's bipolar dx was only about a month old.

So, yes to the first scenario:  counselor with great empathy and whose mental health issues are controlled, No to the second scenario: people who are leading and helping others, but whose own issues are not yet properly addressed.

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4 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I dropped out of my masters counselling degree in the first week because I was terrified at the prospect of providing therapy, and on consideration, thought that I probably erred on the nutter side. But maybe the true nutters don't have that degree of self reflection 🙂

😂 I think you are spot on re: self reflection. As long as a person can continually re-evaluate their own emotions and triggers within each counseling relationship, keeping it front end center then I have faith they can do this job. Self reflection and meta-cognition is deeply crucial. I was sexually assaulted as a teen and my hardest case was a girl who was going through the same thing. I thought I had dealt with my baggage and could handle it. Oh my word was I wrong. My desire to over-identify and subconsciously "fix" or help was strong. I was a fairly new therapist at the time but it was a moment of "wow, can I or should I do this job?" It gets easier as you go but especially fresh in the career it can be jarring to have those realizations. I had to transfer that case to another therapist. It was the right thing to do. 

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I’m not trying to be the forum police here or anything, and I’m not trying to point fingers at anyone, but it seems like people are being awfully hard on @SeaConquest and I feel sad for her. She has been so open about her struggles (and triumphs!) with everything from her mental health to her weight, and I feel like we should be cheering her on and encouraging her to keep reaching for her goals instead of potentially hurting her self-confidence. 

My personal feeling is that SeaConquest should keep working hard toward her new career, and if there is ever a point where it is decided that it’s not the right path for her, it will be determined by people who actually know her and deal with her in real life. So far, that hasn’t happened. She’s doing great! 

Anyway, I’m not attempting to shut anyone up or tell people what they should or shouldn’t post, because it’s not my place to do that. I was just reading the thread and it seemed like SeaConquest’s feelings were really hurt by some of the posts, and I felt very badly about that because she seems like such a nice person.

Edited by Catwoman
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4 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I will add that i just returned from a routine appointment with my psychiatrist. He and I had a 45 minute discussion about our plan for how we are going to tackle my first "official" term in nursing school (I had been taking pre-reqs and grad level classes prior to this). I take my meds every day, have been through years and years of therapy, and work hard with my doctors and support system to do my part to manage a chronic condition. I have been on disability for over a decade after my doctor pulled the plug on my career in a large corporate law firm. I am walking away from a $3600/month tax-free guaranteed annuity for the rest of my life to return to work because I think I am mentally healthy enough to do this, and because I think I have something that I can contribute to help others. To have that effort denigrated and stigmatized here of all places -- when my confidence has already been shattered -- is seriously disheartening. 

My sister, who also has bipolar, is working toward (graduate level) licensure in counseling as well. I think it takes one to know one and truly empathize and wish you luck.

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5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not trying to be the forum police here or anything, and I’m not trying to point fingers at anyone, but it seems like people are being awfully hard on @SeaConquest and I feel sad for her. She has been so open about her struggles (and triumphs!) with everything from her mental health to her weight, and I feel like we should be cheering her on and encouraging her to keep reaching for her goals instead of potentially hurting her self-confidence. 

My personal feeling is that SeaConquest should keep working hard toward her new career, and if there is ever a point where it is decided that it’s not the right path for her, it will be determined by people who actually know her and deal with her in real life. So far, that hasn’t happened. She’s doing great! 

Anyway, I’m not attempting to shut anyone up or tell people what they should or shouldn’t post, because it’s not my place to do that. I was just reading the thread and it seemed like SeaConquest’s feelings were really hurt by some of the posts, and I felt very badly about that because she seems like such a nice person.

SeaConquest is an awesome contributor on these boards and I have enjoyed her posts immensely since joining. I am not sure about anyone else but for me atleast, my posts had nothing to do with SeaConquest. I tried to make sure I noted that she sounded capable of doing this job as she was taking the steps necessary to give her the best chance at success. Passion for the job and an empathetic heart is key and if appears as though she has this. I was stating that there are many others who would not be right for this job depending upon the mental health struggle. For example, someone with a personality disorder would not be a good fit. So SeaConquest, I truly hope none of my posts felt directed at you. If so that was not my intention at all. 😥

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14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I've already apologised for using a term that apparently, in the US, still carries a lot of stigma. I'm not sure what else you would like me to do ?

I certainly have made zero comments about her fitness to practice, and, indeed, made positive comments about how people with lived experience can be an asset in their field. 

Frankly, I think that's sufficient, but if not:

Sea Conquest, although I was in no way referring to you with my use of the term 'nutty', I unreservedly apologise for the hurt you experienced at my use of this term.

 

 

Actually, I wasn’t thinking of you at all when I posted. 🙂

Sorry If I accidentally offended you — it truly wasn’t intentional!

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5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not trying to be the forum police here or anything, and I’m not trying to point fingers at anyone, but it seems like people are being awfully hard on @SeaConquest and I feel sad for her. She has been so open about her struggles (and triumphs!) with everything from her mental health to her weight, and I feel like we should be cheering her on and encouraging her to keep reaching for her goals instead of potentially hurting her self-confidence. 

My personal feeling is that SeaConquest should keep working hard toward her new career, and if there is ever a point where it is decided that it’s not the right path for her, it will be determined by people who actually know her and deal with her in real life. So far, that hasn’t happened. She’s doing great! 

Anyway, I’m not attempting to shut anyone up or tell people what they should or shouldn’t post, because it’s not my place to do that. I was just reading the thread and it seemed like SeaConquest’s feelings were really hurt by some of the posts, and I felt very badly about that because she seems like such a nice person.

 

Thanks, Catwoman. You are very kind. I'm good, ladies. I was probably being too sensitive earlier. As I mentioned, the official beginning of my term is tomorrow, and transitions can be hard. I was rejected twice from this program (it is ridiculously competitive to get into nursing school in California -- don't even get me started on that one), and that really stung. I finally got the unexpected call in December that I had been admitted, and then I was almost feeling too down to accept. I told everyone from the beginning of all of this (when I started my pre-reqs and volunteering at the hospital) that I reserve the right to fail spectacularly and/or to back out at any time if my mental health/family life deteriorates, but I've always tried to live by Eleanor Roosevelt's 'Do one thing everyday that scares you' mantra. So, suffice to say, I am feeling scared, and have probably been taking it out on the folks in this thread. I apologize for derailing things. Let's get back to strippers! 😉

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6 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Ok. I'm on edge too lately, and one of the quirks that makes me unsuitable to provide therapy, is that I'm overly sensitive to negative feedback - and honestly, my experience on these boards is that there's a lot of freely given negative feedback! So sorry to you too for being prickly.

 

It is given freely and sometimes I have to take a step back.....and it isn't just negative feedback, it can also be the condescending comments about things.  There is a lot I don't share here because, for whatever particular topic it might be, this is not a safe place to share it.

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I wonder if this is a professor who is teaching because they aren’t interested in or good at therapy. There are psych majors who have no expectation or plan of ever counseling (and some others who hopefully got advised out of that track because it’s not a good fit). A lot of folks in academia are there (in any major) because they really want to do research, not teach (and it shows-some are pretty awful teachers). While CC’s do get some of the folks who truly DO want to teach, not publish, they also get a lot of people who see the job as a stepping stone in climbing the ivory tower to the job they really want. 

 

My DD is taking basically every psychology and sociology class she can get her hands on. But she has no desire to be a clinical psychologist, and she would not be a good therapist for anything that doesn’t have scales :). She wants to understand and observe human behavior, not change it, any more than she wants to change the behavior of the snakes or lizards. Well, except for the not wanting humans to kill said snakes or lizards part. 

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15 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

"Nutter' where I am is colloquial. A perfectly sane person can be a complete nutter.  Often used to refer to politicians. A therapist I had once who was really into the idea that you'd have a mental breakdown at the same ages as when your mother had undergone any dificult experience was a nutter. Irrationally attached to non-evidence based theory.  But she was quite sane. 

 

My apologies if the term is used differently in the US. 

 

I can't speak for the U.S. or even my state but in my circle "nutter" is used the same way you would use it. Someone with extreme political beliefs on either side, or who believes crackpot conspiracy theories is a nutter. No one I know would call anyone with actual mental illness a nutter. 

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2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I wonder if this is a professor who is teaching because they aren’t interested in or good at therapy. 

 

 

Since she's been a full time family and marriage counselor for the past 10 years and this is her pt evening gig, if that's the case, then I guess being a slow learner is better than not learning that at all? Idk.  That's the my third party take on it.

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13 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not trying to be the forum police here or anything, and I’m not trying to point fingers at anyone, but it seems like people are being awfully hard on @SeaConquest and I feel sad for her. She has been so open about her struggles (and triumphs!) with everything from her mental health to her weight, and I feel like we should be cheering her on and encouraging her to keep reaching for her goals instead of potentially hurting her self-confidence. 

My personal feeling is that SeaConquest should keep working hard toward her new career, and if there is ever a point where it is decided that it’s not the right path for her, it will be determined by people who actually know her and deal with her in real life. So far, that hasn’t happened. She’s doing great! 

Anyway, I’m not attempting to shut anyone up or tell people what they should or shouldn’t post, because it’s not my place to do that. I was just reading the thread and it seemed like SeaConquest’s feelings were really hurt by some of the posts, and I felt very badly about that because she seems like such a nice person.

 

I'm sorry Seaconquest feels that people are talking about her in this conversation, or that it reflects on her, as that wasn't my intent nor I am sure was it anyone elses.  I don't think it's the case that people are being hard on her, in the sense that no one is talking about her at all - the discussion isn't about people that are able to do a good job at therapy.  It's about people who aren't, because their own issues are a problem.  Someone mentioned that many such people seem to have personality disorders, and I would say that is probably the case.

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4 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

I can't speak for the U.S. or even my state but in my circle "nutter" is used the same way you would use it. Someone with extreme political beliefs on either side, or who believes crackpot conspiracy theories is a nutter. No one I know would call anyone with actual mental illness a nutter. 

 

I have only heard nutter when it is followed by butter......😁  And dang, now I am hungry.

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30 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

There’s no shame in being crazy??

or nutty???

or mentally ill.

There is shame in believing  that you  are actually the smart one,  and anyone who doesn't believe what you do is just a sucker believing gov't lies.

you believe men in black helicopters are chasing cern scientists because they opened a door to another dimension. 

You believe the us went to war in Iraq because they found a big round device that takes you to other planets...( I heard that one on a local call in show.  The host was speechless, then attempted to talk him down. )

 

I firmly believe those people are nuts.  That includes my brother. 

That isn't mental illness. 

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59 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

There’s no shame in being crazy??

or nutty???

or mentally ill.

You're going to have to elaborate...

If I had to guess, this post looks like you're implying since there is no shame in mentally illness, we can use whatever term we want.

Is that what you mean?

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

There is shame in believing  that you  are actually the smart one,  and anyone who doesn't believe what you do is just a sucker believing gov't lies.

you believe men in black helicopters are chasing cern scientists because they opened a door to another dimension. 

You believe the us went to war in Iraq because they found a big round device that takes you to other planets...( I heard that one on a local call in show.  The host was speechless, then attempted to talk him down. )

 

I firmly believe those people are nuts.  That includes my brother. 

That isn't mental illness. 

 

I simply disagree.  There's all kinds of mental illness bc it's a vast spectrum.  Depression is mental illness.  Paranoia is mental illness.  

Even when it makes total sense to think or feel something, even if it is true - it can still be mental illness to think or feel that way.

I don't think believing in those things you reference to the point that you imply is healthy, but it is possible it is mental illness.  To ME mental illness is nothing more than unhealthy mental or emotional issues.

Yes, some people are just weird or some people are just selfish aholes.  But I'd argue that's an unhealthy mental state too.  We can't dx, much less treat or cure all illness even if we could dx such things and many illnesses are at least partially decision based.  This is true for mental illness too.

I don't know that shame is an accurate descriptor.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I simply disagree.  There's all kinds of mental illness bc it's a vast spectrum.  Depression is mental illness.  Paranoia is mental illness.  

Even when it makes total sense to think or feel something, even if it is true - it can still be mental illness to think or feel that way.

I don't think believing in those things you reference to the point that you imply is healthy, but it is possible it is mental illness.  To ME mental illness is nothing more than unhealthy mental or emotional issues.

Yes, some people are just weird or some people are just selfish aholes.  But I'd argue that's an unhealthy mental state too.  We can't dx, much less treat or cure all illness even if we could dx such things and many illnesses are at least partially decision based.  This is true for mental illness too.

I don't know that shame is an accurate descriptor.

 

 

it could be argued my brother's likely personality disorder is a mental illness, but his embrace of conspiracy theories (because he's smarter than everyone else) and disdain for those who don't buy into them - is pure arrogance.  that is not a "mental illness".

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46 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

it could be argued my brother's likely personality disorder is a mental illness, but his embrace of conspiracy theories (because he's smarter than everyone else) and disdain for those who don't buy into them - is pure arrogance.  that is not a "mental illness".

 

Some days I think egotistical jerk should be a mental illness bc it seems to come so natural to some that they sure act like they can't help it. 

But seriously, I would argue his personality disorder is likely related to his arrogance, or vice versa. Mental illness, like many illnesses, is not so clear cut a thing to figure causes and affects.

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