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Calming Tea

Changing my question- What if a college requires foreign language but due to dyslexia it is next to impossible?

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My dd has done ASL 1 and 2 and has an opportunity to do ASL 3.

our state recognizes ASL as a foreign language, and the states of the colleges she plans to attend also recognize it (KY or PA)

BUT, the colleges require you to take and pass two semesters of foreign language, and NONE of them offer ASL.  

She is in the process of documenting an official diagnosis with a psychologist, and will have all the paperwork to present to the Disabilities Office, but would they really excuse her from the foreign language requirement?  

I am thinking of doing two years with SPanish with her at home, just to help her prepare but it is a very arduous task.  She can learn the language and speak it, but she cannot spell it at all and has a lot of trouble reading it.  She did a whole year of SPanish before, and I can say with extreme certainty that it would be a nearly impossible task to ever write or spell in a foreign language even though they are more logical than English.

ANy info or experience would be great.

Edited by Calming Tea
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DS#2 with stealth dyslexia successfully completed 4 semesters of college-level ASL at the community college -- 2 of the semesters as dual enrollment while a high school senior.

Is ASL offered at a CC or university near you as dual enrollment? Or can she take it through an online college? (Sacramento State College of Continuing Education; Columbia CollegeGallaudet ...). That would take care of the future college degree requirement of college level foreign language in advance, while she's still in high school.

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Lori’s suggestion would be a good one.  I do know a homeschooling family whose dyslexic daughter was excused from the foreign language requirement at the college she attended.   Could she take a pictorial language like Chinese or Japanese? Sometimes dyslexics have a much easier time with those, as they are processed in a different area of the brain. No spelling required 😊

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OP: This does not address the Foreign Language requirement, but I want to give your DD some encouragement, regarding university and being Dyslexic.  On one job assignment, under contract to an Aerospace company whose name you would recognize, I worked with a young man who had Dyslexia. He was an Electronic Engineer, working on Avionics for a Civil Turbojet aircraft.

Did he have some issues because of his Dyslexia? Yes.  Occasionally, when he wrote something, he would ask me to read it over and check the spelling, etc.

Also, I knew a man who wrote for a major Computer magazine. He had Dyslexia.  

It makes life more difficult, and requires patience, but I believe there are many very successful people with Dyslexia in the working world.

I hope you can resolve the issue(s) with any universities involved.

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Universities have disability centers. I would recommend talking to them directly to see what documentation you need to be excused from the foreign language requirement. 

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10 minutes ago, lmrich said:

Universities have disability centers. I would recommend talking to them directly to see what documentation you need to be excused from the foreign language requirement. 

Yes, and before enrolling. This thread might be insightful.

https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/2119905-waiving-language-requirement-at-a-college-p1.html

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3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My severe dyslexic was successful with Latin. If ASL is not acceptable, Latin might be a consideration.

Same results here, though I don't know that I would call mine severe. 

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30 minutes ago, 2_girls_mommy said:

Same results here, though I don't know that I would call mine severe. 

My ds's dyslexia is severe. He didn't read on grade level until 5th grade and his spelling is still atrocious. He is 2E, though. He is equally gifted, so he has learned to compensate in ways that a less gifted dyslexic would not be able to. (Like Lanny's post, this is my ds who is in grad school for physics.)

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I want to put this out there (not any help to you, but just for folks searching the threads) that while dyslexics are heavily challenged by foreign languages, some can be successful, especially if their memory ability is strong.  IOW, if they are fairly decent spellers on the dyslexic scale, you will likely see a degree of success in my experience.  I've had two (diagnosed) dyslexics do foreign language (DS at CC in German - 2 years, and DD in a homeschool class Spanish - 4 years) and successfully complete.

For the archives, if you live in a state where they can have an IEP that states spelling can't be counted against them and they can complete at the high school (dual enroll) for four years, this might be a good fit.

I have *no* experience with ASL and can't help the question at hand, but I just wanted to put out there that while dyslexics do struggle at foreign language, especially due to the written part, their strengths can help with the actual speaking in my very limited experience.  The biggest problem is getting their struggle at spelling to not affect that GPA while fulfilling requirements.

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I hold a BSEE, and my foreign language requirement was met with computer programming coursework.

My DS is 2e with three SLDs (math/writing/reading).  We selected a school with minimal core math requirements.  He tested well on ACT so took Finite Math in lieu of College Algebra.  He was told by the DSS to seek the foreign language waiver through his college dept head.  Thus far, there have no been no indications that a course substitution will be a problem.  

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2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My ds's dyslexia is severe. He didn't read on grade level until 5th grade and his spelling is still atrocious. He is 2E, though. He is equally gifted, so he has learned to compensate in ways that a less gifted dyslexic would not be able to. (Like Lanny's post, this is my ds who is in grad school for physics.)

Oops, and I read too quickly. My dyslexic child is my lower high school child, so we aren't even close to college yet for her. She has been at standard levels for Latin IMO with others her age, and has been successful. But we aren't near to college level yet, just a standard Latin I (with years of early MP latin before to help prep her.) So time will tell when we get closer to college levels how she is doing. She wants to try Spanish I next and take a break from Latin. I guess that will give us a year to decide if she should then pick up with Latin II or Spanish II. And I am assuming that she will be ok in college languages. But I can't really know that yet, so disregard my statements so far. If we are worried, we would go the disability route as well and see what type of assistance we could get her in changing schedules or requirements. 

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OK, 

So we are contacting her universities one by one:

Uni 1- Says that with board approval, she can have the foreign language requirement waived.  The more ASL she takes in high school, the more likely they are to waive it.

Uni 2- Offers ASL (yay) 

Uni 3- says 3 years of foreign language (including ASL) in high school satisfies their requirement anyway, whether the student is a disabilities student or not, so they recommended she take three years of ASL if possible

Still have to call Uni 4 and 5 but so far so good!

We have our formal evaluation all set up for next week and the week after and maybe a third session if needed, and she will have a full ten page or more report from a Stanford trained psychologist, not only to receive accommodations but to help understand herself, help us understand her (or actually just me, my husband is dyslexic too so they do pretty well), as well as give us advice for moving forward and the all important needed documents to receive accommodations in college.

I am SO GLAD we decided to move forward with this.

 

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Hi! I'm just wondering where your dd would take ASL 3. I can only find ASL course that cover 2 years of work.

 

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Throwing this out there.   There is a deaf college that offers immersion advanced studies in ASL during the summer.   You have to be pretty good at it first.  
Maybe that would count as ASL3?   
Would probably look pretty cool on a college app.   Following a passion, blah-blah-blah.  
I don't remember which one it was, I ran across it a year ago while looking up summer programs.  

 

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On 1/28/2019 at 6:38 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

My severe dyslexic was successful with Latin. If ASL is not acceptable, Latin might be a consideration.

 

My son has mild dyslexia, and Latin is easier for him than Spanish.  I can't figure it out because Latin seems so much more complex to me.

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I know the OP is talking about taking something at college and her dd has taken ASL...but I wanted to throw this out there for parents of dyslexic kids who are looking for a foreign lang. for high school.

Marjorie (Marji) McIlvaine teaches both French and Spanish online using TPR methods.  She was a Spanish teacher, and then realized her dyslexic child struggled to learn the traditional way, so the way she teaches is geared to meet the needs of kids like that as well as non-dyslexic kids.  My son is taking Spanish 1 with her after a year of struggling with traditional methods (including a private tutor from Mexico). He's not been diagnosed but I think it's very probable that he's dyslexic.  I've been amazed at his progress this year.  Our church recently had a group of kids from Costa Rica visiting and he was able to understand much of what they were saying and have conversations with them.  She teaches both through Luma Learn and Academy of Bright Ideas Press

Sorry to hijack OP!  I just know that it is really hard to find something like this for dyslexic kids so I hope this helps someone out.

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5 hours ago, Serenade said:

 

My son has mild dyslexia, and Latin is easier for him than Spanish.  I can't figure it out because Latin seems so much more complex to me.

Does he also have auditory processing issues? I found Latin easier than Spanish because I wouldn’t have to learn how to be conversational in it.

Edited by MerryAtHope
silly auto-correct!
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5 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

Does he also have auditory processing issues? I found Let easier than Spanish because I wouldn’t have to learn how to be conversational in it.

 

That could be it -- this is my kid who had the pin/pen problem.   One of his biggest problems with Spanish is that the words often have many syllables, and he has hard time putting them in the proper order.  He had a terrible time pronouncing "literatura."  He just couldn't get the sounds out right.  I finally broke it down for him like this:  leader - ah- tour - ah.  And we'd say it over and over and over that way, sometimes only two syllables at a time.  He finally got it, but the way he says it now sounds very anglicized, although at least it works. 

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I second the idea of an Asian language.

my DS took two years of ASL in 9th and 10th grade. His current school does not offer sign language, but he decided to try Japanese this semester just for a fun elective. He explains to me that it is much more like sign language in how the "sentences" are put together more like ASL than English. I can't really explain it well, but it is not a word to word translation like Spanish is. It drives me crazy when I try to do one of the lessons with him (on line lessons), and would have been terribly frustrated if I had had to take that in high school, but he thinks it is fun. 

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12 hours ago, City Mouse said:

I second the idea of an Asian language.

my DS took two years of ASL in 9th and 10th grade. His current school does not offer sign language, but he decided to try Japanese this semester just for a fun elective. He explains to me that it is much more like sign language in how the "sentences" are put together more like ASL than English. I can't really explain it well, but it is not a word to word translation like Spanish is. It drives me crazy when I try to do one of the lessons with him (on line lessons), and would have been terribly frustrated if I had had to take that in high school, but he thinks it is fun. 

Japanese might work, but I would think that Chinese could be difficult to take in college for a student who struggles with language, just because it's often an extra credited course and they really pack in a lot more for the first year than other foreign languages.

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When DS and I met with the director of the disability office at his school, she looked at his documentation (dyslexia & ADD) and offered him extra time on tests, a quiet room, a note-taker, and exemption from the foreign language requirement. I thought it was funny that she automatically offered the language exemption, because at that point he had completed 5 yrs of Greek, 2 of Latin, 2 of Old Norse, and 1 one Turkish, and one of the reasons he chose this school was because of their extensive foreign language offerings! So it's obviously not that unusual to get an exemption from foreign languages for a student with a documented disability.

If the colleges in question won't allow an exemption, is there any way your DD could complete ASL 3 at a school that does offer it? Or at least find a way of validating the level she is at? Usually when colleges say they require "X semesters of foreign language" they mean you have to have completed up to that level, not that you have to take 2 semesters at that school even if you are far past the 2nd semester level. So theoretically your DD could have completed "2 semesters worth" of ASL with 2 yrs in HS, she just needs a way to validate it. Are there any colleges or programs where she could basically "test out" of the requirement by demonstrating 2nd-semester-level fluency? 

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I had to come back to this thread because I just had an idea. I would suspect that there is text to speech and speech to text software in languages other than English. I wonder if that would help a student with dyslexia learning a foreign language. I may go do some research.

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I have two dyslexic students.   We found that going VERY slowly with Latin in working out great.   Like a lot of subjects, they need a LOT of extra practice and a LOT of scaffolding in their instruction.   It hasn't been easy, but it can be done.    And as an added bonus, learning Latin is helping us better learn English!  

You might try posting about your situation on the Simply Classical forum of Memoria press.  Cheryl Lowe often hangs out over there and I am sure she will have some great advice for you.   I really like Cheryl Lowe's philosophy when it comes to working with kids who are struggling with Learning Challenges.   Instead of just writing them off and saying, "Oh, that's just not possible. "  She says, "Let's try and see how far they can go."   She reminds me a lot of a modern-day Anne Sullivan.    

If I were to give you my 2 cents:   I would suggest starting your students in First Form Latin.  (It has a lot of extra practice built in compared to some other Latin programs.)  And taking it as slowly as you need to, adding in extra practice as needed.

 

ETA:  If you are truly against Latin.  You might try learning to speak and listen ONLY in a modern day Foreign Language.   (Writing could be done using an adaptive program perhaps.)   The Paul Noble programs are EXCELLENT for getting students thinking and speaking in their target language quickly.  Plus, they are not that expensive so you could try them out.   After going through those programs, she would probably be ready to practice some French/Spanish/German conversation online or in person.  (There are a lot of language exchange online platforms now.)   She could also use a lot of easy audiobooks, music , tv shows , etc.   (Posting French stuff because that is what I use at home...but I am sure there are other sources for other languages.  Speaking of French, there is that old PBS show somewhere online if I could remember the name.)   

Edited by TheAttachedMama

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On 2/27/2019 at 12:56 PM, Homemama2 said:

Marjorie (Marji) McIlvaine teaches both French and Spanish online using TPR methods.  

I'm unfamiliar with TPR. What is it?

Regards,

Kareni

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1 hour ago, Kareni said:

I'm unfamiliar with TPR. What is it?

Regards,

Kareni

 

TPR = total physical response.   A method of teaching language or vocabulary concepts by using physical movement to react to verbal input.  I first heard about it with some videos to learn Spanish.  educacion espanol (excuse my spellings please).  video teacher would tell the classroom teachers in the notes about the TPR activities.  I didn't have a clue and had to learn it too. But on the video the students were playing a game similar to Simon Says.  Teacher would call out the new vocab word such as standing, and the students had to stand.  then "turn around", "jump". etc.

here's a quick link for basics http://www.theteachertoolkit.com/index.php/tool/total-physical-response-tpr

 

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Thank you for the explanation, cbollin. I remember my daughter's Latin teacher doing a physical activity during their first lesson that incorporated elements like this.

Regards,

Kareni

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On 2/28/2019 at 6:01 PM, City Mouse said:

I had to come back to this thread because I just had an idea. I would suspect that there is text to speech and speech to text software in languages other than English. I wonder if that would help a student with dyslexia learning a foreign language. I may go do some research.

 

I don't know about others, but for my dd the problem is really that even if she could get to the point where she can decode, syllable by syllable in a new language (which, since she struggles even do that in English, is doubtful), she really would struggle even more with spelling in a foreign language.  So that's why it's so important to get this officially diagnosed, so that she can get accommodations.  

We are halfway done her learning assessment and the doctor already says she will definitely qualify for diagnoses, and more than one.  I feel a little bad that I didn't do this when we really figured out she had an issue, like back in 3rd grade.  On the other hand, we have provided her with all the tools, accommodations, three years of synthetic phonics for dyslexia and a special eye doctor, and she is thriving for the most part.  

Anyway, I've called a few colleges and the answers range from completely allowing her to skip foreign language, to offering ASL at the college anyway, (and accommodations for the finger spelling portions), to "it's reviewed on a case by case basis" to "If she takes three years of foreign language in high school, including ASL, she won't have to take it here anyway..."  🙂

But it'll be good to have that paperwork for her.

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On 2/27/2019 at 10:56 AM, Homemama2 said:

I know the OP is talking about taking something at college and her dd has taken ASL...but I wanted to throw this out there for parents of dyslexic kids who are looking for a foreign lang. for high school.

Marjorie (Marji) McIlvaine teaches both French and Spanish online using TPR methods.  She was a Spanish teacher, and then realized her dyslexic child struggled to learn the traditional way, so the way she teaches is geared to meet the needs of kids like that as well as non-dyslexic kids.  My son is taking Spanish 1 with her after a year of struggling with traditional methods (including a private tutor from Mexico). He's not been diagnosed but I think it's very probable that he's dyslexic.  I've been amazed at his progress this year.  Our church recently had a group of kids from Costa Rica visiting and he was able to understand much of what they were saying and have conversations with them.  She teaches both through Luma Learn and Academy of Bright Ideas Press

Sorry to hijack OP!  I just know that it is really hard to find something like this for dyslexic kids so I hope this helps someone out.

My high school French teacher used TPR and it was amazing.  

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