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independent learners vs. being an involved teacher


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My kids are now 9th grade. A lot of my homeschooling friends have their kids pretty much independently learning by 9th grade it seems. 

But, given I just have two kids, I have more time than some of my homeschooling friends with larger families. I like teaching. I think my kids are learning more because I'm learning with them. I'm helping as they work through hard material. We're having some fun too. 

I was a public high school teacher for over a decade before homeschooling, and of course I taught in my classroom. I kind of assumed homeschool would be like that too in that I would still be teaching. 

But I sat through a presentation by a local community college last week where they said that homeschoolers they see tend to need far less hand holding than the public school kids. It occurred to me that maybe I'm not preparing them for the future--for college. Maybe I'm coddling too much. I think I lean that way generally. Maybe my goal really should be to get them to the point they can plan and carry out their own study. Maybe it would be better to learn less effectively but do it yourself?  Sink or swim seems to be the rule for most of their peers in our local co-op group classes. There is a lot of sinking it seems. But maybe that's part of the learning to be independent or maybe the gains from independence outweigh the drawbacks of less parent involvement. 

Thoughts for me? 

Edited by sbgrace
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I do not have time or brain power tonight to write well about this, but this is a topic that is very important to me. I also like teaching and being involved and I personally think it is a very good thing. My junior with a big scholarship in a college that has an average ACT of 30 and has a 4.0 would agree (we have talked about this!) that being involved and teaching and discussing is a good thing. 

I teach math and they sit near me while they do it. I teach chemistry and physics(though not biology). I do writing with all my kids at once. We do quick lessons and quick writes and then they go write and I rotate around as needed. 

Other courses I discuss with them when I can (lit and history particularly) but otherwise do on their own. Some courses are completely independent.

My goal is not to have an independent learner off in their room doing all their school on their own. 

My college kids haven't needed hand holding in spite of my larger amounts of interaction/teaching. I do also teach them about doing college. The rude awakening my kids have had about college is that it isn't just about learning. You have to do things to get a grade and they aren't always what they feel is the best use of their time. Also their workload can be impossible to do as thoroughly as they might have done in high school with a mom that focused on learning and not grades. They can still get an A and not do a thorough job.  They might like to spend more time reading and researching before writing, but they don't have time.

They do help plan their year/schedule and they know they can let me know if things aren't going well and that we will find a solution.  

When they have had an outside class (pretty rare in our home) I give as much support as is needed, if any. Then as the class goes on I work at transitioning out of that support. Usually (Always, maybe?) that happens naturally and I don't have to work at it. 

 

 

 

 

 

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For my kids, we looked for a balance between independent work and teaching.  In order to give them a quality education that was appropriately challenging, we needed to outsource several subjects.  They needed teachers who were well-versed in their subjects rather than have me working a chapter ahead.  And, to be honest, I didn't have the energy to do even that while homeschooling multiple children.  So, we did a combination of independent work with frequent check-ins and discussion, parent-led subjects and outsourced subjects.  Even their outsourced classes (some online, some in-person college classes) still required a bit of independent work.  I found myself spending more time working with them on creating plans on when and how to get their work accomplished than direct teaching.  Some of it also depended on the personality of the kid.  My two oldest preferred more independent work where they went off and did some work and then got feedback or we had discussion.  My youngest wanted/needed more direct teaching.  And she found that she learned best in groups, which was a big part of her decision to attend high school part-time.  

 

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My thoughts, for what it's worth:

- "comparison is the thief of joy" -- and often leads to self-doubt when what you're doing is working and faltering in achieving your valid goals
- "independent learning" doesn't have to be -- shouldn't be -- an "all or nothing" proposition
- absolutely need to take into consideration each student's unique timetable of development and needs -- some students have special needs or preference that benefit from more parent/teacher interaction
- some subjects are naturally better done together (discussion-based; subjects of parent's strength or high interest for teaching, etc)
- it's not too hard to incorporate learning study skills throughout the years of high school years to prepare the student for college success -- and it doesn't mean having to sacrifice doing some subjects or projects together
 

3 hours ago, sbgrace said:

...Maybe my goal really should be to get them to the point they can plan and carry out their own study...


Maybe. But I think that's a rather unrealistic view of most *people*, not just children. I don't know many people who plan and carry out self-study completely independently. In order to learn new material, most *people* (of all ages) need teachers and/or mentors, external "helps" of schedules, syllabi, and deadlines, plus a combo of some prodding and rewards to stay motivated. Why would children be different and have a magical ability and motivation to learn completely independently??
 

3 hours ago, sbgrace said:

...I just have two kids, I have more time than some of my homeschooling friends with larger families....


I see a lot of local homeschooling moms with large families kind of have to operate this way -- formal traditional materials, workbooks, videos, and self-teaching materials, because it is the only way mom can get all the kids through all the school subjects every day. You're not in that position. No need to do what "moms of many" are doing.
 

3 hours ago, sbgrace said:

...Maybe it would be better to learn less effectively but do it yourself?  Sink or swim seems to be the rule for most of their peers in our local co-op group classes. There is a lot of sinking it seems. But maybe that's part of the learning to be independent or maybe the gains from independence outweigh the drawbacks of less parent involvement....


JMO: while there may be a time and place for "sink or swim", your child's education isn't where you want to be trying out that philosophy. And, I am probably being very cynical here, and way off base, but it seems to me that sometimes this parental attitude you're describing comes from:

- frustration/giving up (parents who have tried all kinds of things with their student who has struggled for years, nothing is working, and the parent has given up and is down to hoping the co-op will fix the problem)
- ignorance (not knowing or realizing that the vast majority of students don't learn best when left to do the majority of it solo)
- wanting the "cachet" but not the commitment of homeschooling (
want children to be homeschooled via free online curricula so that it does not require time/effort on the part of the parent)
 

3 hours ago, sbgrace said:

...I like teaching. I think my kids are learning more because I'm learning with them. I'm helping as they work through hard material. We're having some fun too... Thoughts for me? 


Sounds like you've got a great thing going! Keep up the good work, and don't worry about trying to fix what clearly isn't broken. 😉 BEST of luck, and ENJOY your homeschooling high school journey together! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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There's a big difference between productive and stimulating interaction and coddling!

I describe my high schoolers as mostly independent - meaning they do the "nuts and bolts" of the work by themselves and I don't have to sit next to them and walk them through all the steps of their assignments like I do with my 5th grader's math. However, we have lots of discussion and interaction about the material both before and after they go off to do those assignments.

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Agreed with a lot of the thoughts above.

Honestly, I feel some concern sometimes that high school homeschool parents I know are not involved enough sometimes from what I can see. We know a lot of families who seem to plant their kids in front of some lecture series and self-checking programs and into a few classes and then don't seem to do much more oversight. I think it's a little concerning. Interaction is part of how the vast majority of people learn best. When that interaction is with high quality teachers, then it improves the quality of education. I think this is especially true with writing.

If homeschoolers that they see are more prepared to be independent, I would sort of question what that means. For one thing, they may have selection bias. The students who make it to them are more prepared, but they're not seeing "homeschoolers" in general - they're seeing the homeschoolers who enrolled and maybe it shows that homeschoolers don't start cc until they're ready or motivated whereas other students often start because they're "supposed" to. Also, from the perspective of a community college, more prepared doesn't necessarily mean able to just learn academically without instruction. It often means more able to advocate for the support and instruction they need, more prepared after following the instruction to participate and contribute in class. It can also be about life skills - more able to navigate campus and things like the registration process. I mean, college is not "independent" either.

Edited by Farrar
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Back during my older son's freshman year in high school, I wrote a blog post about this very thing.  The short version is that I'm not a fan of handing a kid a textbook (or equivalent, which includes most online classes) and hoping for the best.

After seeing how things turned out with the older one, at least with regard to my approach to independent learning, I wouldn't change a thing (and haven't with the younger one).

 

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Agree with everything posted here.  You can teach without coddling.  But best of all, you can provide the appropriate level of scaffolding and independence that they need to prepare with out the "sink or swim."  

My dd has excellent EF skills and I haven't taught high school.  She was interested in taking AP classes early in high school, and I wouldn't do her justice in preparing for the exams.  However, I was more hands on in other areas. 

Bring the skills you have to the table to meet the needs of your own student.  Your skills and your student's needs will be different from mine.  Good luck and have fun!  

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On 1/26/2019 at 6:52 PM, sbgrace said:

But I sat through a presentation by a local community college last week where they said that homeschoolers they see tend to need far less hand holding than the public school kids. It occurred to me that maybe I'm not preparing them for the future--for college. Maybe I'm coddling too much. I think I lean that way generally. Maybe my goal really should be to get them to the point they can plan and carry out their own study. Maybe it would be better to learn less effectively but do it yourself?  

 

You can always choose a non-credit class to be more hands off. My 9th grader took a hard to him math class in 8th grade because we can don’t count his grade in that course and he intend to redo in high school. He also did some non-credit hobby courses independently and I am just the spectator as he would show me his work from time to time.

When we want to enroll in the community college dual enrollment program for all high school students, it requires my kid to meet with the guidance counselor.  My kid has not start any dual enrollment class but I won’t be surprised that after all the required interviews he would be better at advocating for himself.  

My 9th grader is still not good at advocating for himself. We are slowly working on it as it is a useful skill.

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On 1/26/2019 at 9:52 PM, sbgrace said:

My kids are now 9th grade. A lot of my homeschooling friends have their kids pretty much independently learning by 9th grade it seems. 

Maybe my goal really should be to get them to the point they can plan and carry out their own study.

 

This is an excellent goal to have because I'm sure it is also your goal that you will not be going off to college with them.

However, there's nothing that says you have magically arrived at this moment just because your students have hit 9th grade. High school is preparation for college or career. There are 4 years to get there.

You are still the homeschool parent and responsible for their education up until the time that you deem them graduated. Stay as involved as they need you to be, and enjoy it!

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I haven’t noticed anyone else say this... I have a niece who is a freshman in college, at a large 4-year university.

My oldest son is an 8th grader and also in public school.  

I can compare his level of independence to what was shown by my niece at the same age, and she was much more independent.

Well — I showed my son the website for community college about a month ago.  If he stays how he is, he will need more handholding and I would expect him to have some hope of getting it at community college.  

Honestly I do think there are parenting and teaching practices that make a difference.

But I also think individual kids being how they are makes a big difference, and that parents see that and think a young person would perhaps be more successful starting at community college.  

I think my son is young enough this could change, but then again it might not.  

But for my niece, she would only start at community college for financial reasons.  But I think it could be a benefit for my son.  

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Humans are social learners--we learn best when engaged with other humans. Successful college students are often those who engage with study partners and study groups, who actively participate in class, and who talk with professors and TA's during office hours. I don't think we do our students a favor if we teach them that learning is something that should be done alone.

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It makes me wonder exactly what was meant by “independent,” too.

I would picture it meaning someone who is: a self-starter, takes initiative, gets engaged in learning without someone *constantly prodding* them.

I don’t picture someone who is not being taught.

It doesn’t sound like you are dragging or prodding your kids constantly.

My son is not bad as far as having to be drug or prodded.  He lacks more in initiative, but he is engaged.  

I have a relative who is planning to go to CC next year, and I would describe him as sullen, unwilling to participate in the kind of conversations that relate to school (like talking about current events), not engaged, and I would say he would need to be prodded in a way my son just would not.  

To me — I picture that “dragging and prodding” as what is meant by a public school mentality.  I know exactly what is meant if that is what is meant...... but there are plenty of kids I don’t think are this way.

There are also kids who have an attitude of “just tell me the answer.”  For whatever reason — I am aware of this, but I don’t see it very much.  But with my relative — yes, it’s like he doesn’t even understand that there is “more to it” than there being an answer to be given, he doesn’t understand he is expected to think about things or consider information or look at reasons someone else might think differently.  But my son and his friends are not this way.  

For my son — it is more like, it is not obvious to him what actions he should be taking to study or learn, that nobody specifically told him to do.  He is getting better but it is a very weak are for him right now.

But part of me thinks — I think in homeschooling saying “independent in high school” means a certain thing, but I don’t know that it’s the same thing meant by a community college teacher saying “less independent,” because I would take that to mean “you have to pull and prod some of these kids or they won’t do what they are expected to do,” and it’s just not the same thing.  I think it’s more of a mindset of not thinking, than anything, and I think it comes from a serious lack of engagement.  And then — I think there are a lot of ways to be engaged.  

 

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 I think that the amount of independent learning kids do at home varies a lot by personality.  My kids are younger, but do a lot more independent work than I had planned just because they prefer it.  We do certain subjects together and sometimes discussion is part of the work, but when possible they often like to give it a try on their own first.     But, when schools talk about students expecting hand-holding, they're not talking about teaching, or answering questions.  Many students seem to expect multiple reminders of upcoming assignments, often by multiple sources, faculty emailing them if they miss class, faculty checking to see if they need help, etc.  Students sometimes complain if they need to take notes instead of being given complete handouts.  By high schol, most homeschool students seem to be able to manage their daily, of sometimes weekly, schedules.  And, for homeschoolers they can't usually get away with faking their way through sections that they don't understand, so they learn to ask for help when they need it.  They may or may not be proficient at note-taking, but they expect to need to do something besides sit in class to learn the material (possibly because, with no class to sit in at home, 'doing work' was what school meant).  I used to teach at a CC, and 2 of my college roommates are instructors at different colleges so we discuss teaching issues...I would say that, on average, my homeschooled 9th/10th graders at co-op are as capable of managing their work as the college students that we've taught.  And, knowing that my students have had really different education styles at home and different levels of support in my class, I don't think that there's one 'right' way to do it.  

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 8:52 PM, sbgrace said:

My kids are now 9th grade. A lot of my homeschooling friends have their kids pretty much independently learning by 9th grade it seems. 

But, given I just have two kids, I have more time than some of my homeschooling friends with larger families. I like teaching. I think my kids are learning more because I'm learning with them. I'm helping as they work through hard material. We're having some fun too. 

I was a public high school teacher for over a decade before homeschooling, and of course I taught in my classroom. I kind of assumed homeschool would be like that too in that I would still be teaching. 

But I sat through a presentation by a local community college last week where they said that homeschoolers they see tend to need far less hand holding than the public school kids. It occurred to me that maybe I'm not preparing them for the future--for college. Maybe I'm coddling too much. I think I lean that way generally. Maybe my goal really should be to get them to the point they can plan and carry out their own study. Maybe it would be better to learn less effectively but do it yourself?  Sink or swim seems to be the rule for most of their peers in our local co-op group classes. There is a lot of sinking it seems. But maybe that's part of the learning to be independent or maybe the gains from independence outweigh the drawbacks of less parent involvement. 

Thoughts for me? 

 

I think it's wonderful that you are closely involved in your ninth graders' homeschool education. You like teaching. They are learning and you're learning with them, so keep doing what works for your family. 

Edited by merry gardens
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I think there can be a balance and that you can still be involved in your children’s education, but also give them opportunities to develop the organization and planning skills they will need to be successful in college.  I worked with my ds on math from kindergarten until he went off to college.  I also worked with him on personal finance and macro and micro economics his senior year as well as many other classes over the years. 

But, he also took a number of classes at our local one-day-a-week homeschool coop during high school and he was very motivated for an outside teacher.  He took it seriously and always had his homework done.  He had the one day a week of class, but then he had to plan out when he would do the work and have the discipline to follow through with that.  That’s how college classes work and I realized sometime in his junior year, that more than half the battle had been won when he could do that. Not to say that all kids need that practice before college, but, in my mind, it really has given him the skills he needed to be successful.  And, of course, you can accomplish that without outside classes as well if your children are still motivated to meet your deadlines. Once my kids added in outside classes, though, I found mine were no longer a big priority for them. So, they will do the work I ask of them, but I have to frequently prod or remind them about it. And there were a number of subjects where I thought they would have a richer experience with an outside teacher.

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