crate training an older dog? (please be gentle) *severe anxiety

[Lucy the Valiant]

Our 9yo rescue dog has severe separation anxiety. When he was a puppy, we tried to crate train him, but failed - he FREAKED out and actually bent open / ruined the metal door of the crate, scratched his shoulder, and . . . well . . . I did not know what I was doing, and just gave up the crate at that time. He is 100% perfect dog when we are home (which is a lot, since we home school!). When we leave the house, he panics, and does destructive things. So if the weather is decent, we put him outside, where he has access to a barn (cozy bed of hay / dry blanket / soft space). When the weather is NOT decent, he stays inside, but - usually with bad results. He is EXCEEDINGLY patient with my 2 boys, and is truly a member of our family. But he is getting older, and I want to be able to leave him inside more when we are gone, just for his own comfort - is it possible to re-crate train him? 

My son and I got him a regular wire crate over Christmas, put his soft blanket bed in there, and zip-tied the door OPEN so he will never be "trapped" in there - and he is going in there! We give him treats in it, and he hangs out in there a decent amount; he seems to like the location. How do I go about teaching him that if I shut the door, I *WILL* come back, and it *IS* okay? 

(I have asked my vet this, and he gave us some good ideas about helping the separation anxiety, which have made it better - desensitizing to keys / jacket, making him sit before we go out, learning how to greet people at the door, etc. - but he didn't sound very hopeful about the crate. Please be gentle with me as I did NOT grow up with a dog, and I love this guy dearly, but I also live in a very high cost of living area, and do not have extra $$ for special dog classes / therapists / etc. And if it's a futile endeavor, just tell me. This dog has been my comfort and friend through some very dark days, and I owe him the best life a pup could ever have. Can a crate be part of that?)

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

You have a great start. I would start by closing the door for a very short time while you are still home. Probably no longer than five minutes at first but less if he shows any signs of distress. Then gradually length the time. Eventually go into the next room while he’s in there with the door closed. Give him treats/chewies while he’s in there. 

[Pawz4me]

I'd try tiny baby steps -- first simply close the door while he's in the crate. Just for a second or three, while you stay right there. Feed him a really yummy treat. If he tolerates that then gradually lengthen the time the door is closed, still feeding him treats. When he's comfortable with having the door closed for a few minutes with you sitting right there then start closing it, treating and stepping away (out of his line of sight). Again--just for a second or three to begin with, then longer as he tolerates it. As you lengthen the time add in longer lasting treats (stuffed Kong or stuffed hollow bone, etc.). Eventually work up to picking up your keys/going through the motions of whatever else you normally do before you leave. And then work up to stepping out the door for just a minute or two, gradually lengthening the time.

It will probably be a very slow process. He might not be able to handle it at all (IME separation anxiety often gets worse as a dog gets older). He can't help it, no more than a person with anxiety can help it. And there's no reason for you to feel bad about that--you did not do this to him! I applaud the steps you've taken to accommodate him.

Have you considered some pharmaceutical help for him? Did your vet cover that? Sometimes the need for that is life long. Sometimes the dog just needs it to take the edge off the anxiety for a few months so he can relax enough to learn. It's very difficult to impossible for a stressed brain to learn new, desirable behaviors. A bit of medication, at least for awhile, may be just the thing for him.

[Daria]

We crate trained in a similar situation.  My son did most of it, so I don't have all the details, but we had the crate up in the living room for years and he wouldn't go in.

He basically started putting treats closer and closer to the crate, and then throwing the treats in so he'd go in eat them and come out, and then throwing the treats in, letting him go in and closing the door just long enough for him to gobble the treat and then opening it.  Then once we had that, we started feeding him in the crate with the door closed, and letting him out right away, and then gradually built up time from there. 

Now, he gets up in the a.m., eats, goes back in the crate and lies down like he knows that's his place when I go to work.  I don't close the door on work days, but I do if a workman in coming in or something, but even when I don't, I don't see any evidence that he comes out.  He's always in there when I get home. 

[gardenmom5]

tie a kong/similar with a high value treat to the back of the crate - and leave the door open so he can go in and out, and it is his choice to be in there.   start off with him just going in and getting a treat.    we have a metal crate - and it has two doors, front and side.  you might even start with treats just sitting there towards the back.  first you want him to feel like it's a safe space.

(puppy adores fish based soft treats.  the salmon, I don't have to say anything.  he's sitting -his bottom is moving as his tail is wagging, but he's sitting. I say down - and he drops as fast as he can.)

[KungFuPanda]

What about an insulated doghouse in the barn so he can stay warm out there?

[ktgrok]

Is the dog anxious when left outside? Some dogs have containment anxiety and prefer to be outside. If the dog likes it, I'd just be sure there was a safe, dry place outside. 

If not, sigh..it's hard. Can you gate the dog in one area instead of using the crate?

Also, either way, put that dog either in that crate or in the gated area a LOT when you ARE home. Preferably sleeping there. (so if the dog normally sleeps in your bed, gate the dog in your bedroom). Start with short periods of time, then longer. 

CBD oil may or may not help as well. 

Lots of long duration down stays during the day, while you are home. (I don't know why those help, but they do. Maybe because they teach the dog to deal with frustration of not having/doing what they want when they want?)

[Lucy the Valiant]

Oh, thank you, ALL of you! You have given me hope! 

I think he does also have anxiety about being outside, and I also think he is afraid to go inside the insulated / elevated / very cozy doghouse that he DOES have. My neighbor comes by when he's out, and he never barks at her or anything, but she says she has never seen him go inside (either the doghouse OR the little barn) - that said, he may just come out when she comes by (he likes her little girl). 

I will go very slowly, as recommended, and just keep being patient with him; I'll ask the vet about medication, too (I think he said that the dog specialist does that, not him?). We do give him melatonin if we know there's going to be disturbing shooting / fireworks / storm, and that is noticeably helpful. He *is* a shelter / rescue, but his mom was actually the rescue dog, and this guy was born in rescue / foster home. So he has never been mistreated or abused, but - he does act as if he had been. 

THANK YOU for your advice for my sweet guy! 

 

(Editing to add: He sleeps with my son, not in the same room as the crate. But the dog is ALWAYS in the room where either I or my son are, during the day - he needs to be near one of us. He tolerates the other kids, but is not one of those animals that ever wants space / off by himself. When DS is away overnight, dog is allowed in my bedroom just for that night.)

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Lucy the Valiant

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

 

(Editing to add: He sleeps with my son, not in the same room as the crate. But the dog is ALWAYS in the room where either I or my son are, during the day - he needs to be near one of us. He tolerates the other kids, but is not one of those animals that ever wants space / off by himself. When DS is away overnight, dog is allowed in my bedroom just for that night.)

 

I'd work on that, as getting him used to separation with you still home will greatly help with accepting separation when you are not home. Does that make sense? Going from the extreme of being right with you to the extreme of you being totally gone is hard. Start with him accepting and dealing with you being home, but in the next room. You might have to start with him in a down stay or in a crate across the room, then gradually with you leaving the room briefly, then for longer periods of time, etc. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

@Ktgrok - yes, that does make sense! It just never occurred to me before! But it makes total sense. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Oh, thank you, ALL of you! You have given me hope! 

I think he does also have anxiety about being outside, and I also think he is afraid to go inside the insulated / elevated / very cozy doghouse that he DOES have. My neighbor comes by when he's out, and he never barks at her or anything, but she says she has never seen him go inside (either the doghouse OR the little barn) - that said, he may just come out when she comes by (he likes her little girl). 

I will go very slowly, as recommended, and just keep being patient with him; I'll ask the vet about medication, too (I think he said that the dog specialist does that, not him?). We do give him melatonin if we know there's going to be disturbing shooting / fireworks / storm, and that is noticeably helpful. He *is* a shelter / rescue, but his mom was actually the rescue dog, and this guy was born in rescue / foster home. So he has never been mistreated or abused, but - he does act as if he had been. 

THANK YOU for your advice for my sweet guy! 

 

(Editing to add: He sleeps with my son, not in the same room as the crate. But the dog is ALWAYS in the room where either I or my son are, during the day - he needs to be near one of us. He tolerates the other kids, but is not one of those animals that ever wants space / off by himself. When DS is away overnight, dog is allowed in my bedroom just for that night.)

 

I have been listening to lectures on the long-term effects of emotional neglect.   the topic of epigenetics came up.

in lab experiments, they taught adult rats to be afraid of the smell of cherries.  they would only react if they smelled cherries, so then they bred them without the exposure to cherries.   the pups were never exposed to the smell of cherries until they were weaned and away from their mothers.   away from the adults who had been taught to be afraid of cherries (so they never saw an adult react to the smell of cherries), they were exposed to the smell of cherries.  they were afraid because it was in their DNA.

so do consider, some of what you're dealing with may well be the way his parents were treated before he was born, and passed on to him.

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I'd work on that, as getting him used to separation with you still home will greatly help with accepting separation when you are not home. Does that make sense? Going from the extreme of being right with you to the extreme of you being totally gone is hard. Start with him accepting and dealing with you being home, but in the next room. You might have to start with him in a down stay or in a crate across the room, then gradually with you leaving the room briefly, then for longer periods of time, etc. 

and when you do leave, don't' "sneak" out thinking he won't notice.   I babysat a little boy whose parents always snuck out thinking it would be easier on him . .  I couldn't leave the room I was in without taking him with me or he would freak out.   

you want him to learn you come back.  like peek-a-boo with a baby.

[Lucy the Valiant]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

I have been listening to lectures on the long-term effects of emotional neglect.   the topic of epigenetics came up.

in lab experiments, they taught adult rats to be afraid of the smell of cherries.  they would only react if they smelled cherries, so then they bred them without the exposure to cherries.   the pups were never exposed to the smell of cherries until they were weaned and away from their mothers.   away from the adults who had been taught to be afraid of cherries (so they never saw an adult react to the smell of cherries), they were exposed to the smell of cherries.  they were afraid because it was in their DNA.

so do consider, some of what you're dealing with may well be the way his parents were treated before he was born, and passed on to him.

Yes, this is the thing that causes us to feel so patient with his fears. I have always considered this to be true for humans, too, though I haven't read evidence. But I know that a human mother's distress during pregnancy can very much affect her baby, so I have just always assumed that that is at least part of his problem. 

I wish I knew how to put pictures here, so you could all see what a handsome and 100%-true-friend guy we are discussing. ❤️ 

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I have been listening to lectures on the long-term effects of emotional neglect.   the topic of epigenetics came up.

in lab experiments, they taught adult rats to be afraid of the smell of cherries.  they would only react if they smelled cherries, so then they bred them without the exposure to cherries.   the pups were never exposed to the smell of cherries until they were weaned and away from their mothers.   away from the adults who had been taught to be afraid of cherries (so they never saw an adult react to the smell of cherries), they were exposed to the smell of cherries.  they were afraid because it was in their DNA.

so do consider, some of what you're dealing with may well be the way his parents were treated before he was born, and passed on to him.

Yup. Also, early exposure, when he was a teeny pup with closed eyes nursing on mom, if she tensed or growled or cowered when people walked by he'd pick up on that and it would imprint in his brain. My last dog was born in the shelter and although she was NEVER mistreated, her mother was very aggressive from what the staff said. And sure enough, about 6 months old and my very well socialized, went to work with me, well trained, doted on dog began growling at strangers. It took a lot of work, and some prozac, and me reducing my expectations of her to fix it.

So absolutely a lot of this may have to do with genetics and early exposure. 

My current dog has separation anxiety issues and  serious crate issues and it's possibly genetic (hounds are much more pack oriented than many other dogs due to hunting in packs) but also probably because when we got him at the age of 12 weeks he'd been born in one home, given to another, turned into a shelter, driven hundreds of miles in a crate (and he gets horribly carsick), placed in a foster home, placed in ANOTHER foster home, placed in an adoptive home, given up by the family that adopted him, and then came to me. All in his first 12 weeks! And then, I was homeschooling and my adult son was home and he basically never had much chance to be left alone. So he went from the extreme of "people go away and they really don't come back" to "these people NEVER leave" and that was a terrible set up. It's no wonder he has separation anxiety. He's getting better, but it's not great. 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Ktgrok

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Yes, this is the thing that causes us to feel so patient with his fears. I have always considered this to be true for humans, too, though I haven't read evidence. But I know that a human mother's distress during pregnancy can very much affect her baby, so I have just always assumed that that is at least part of his problem. 

I wish I knew how to put pictures here, so you could all see what a handsome and 100%-true-friend guy we are discussing. ❤️ 

I think it does go both ways.  I've heard of small dog syndrome, where they have inadequate mental stimulation and go crazy.   mil . . . has been in a wheelchair (her own fault. she refused to do her PT after surgery), and very little social stimulation.  this woman . . . has been known to drag people away from their breakfast in their own homes to come entertain her.  she's going into an assisted living facility and I'm expecting her to start perking up. . . and stop 'seeing' the peeping tom who is spying on her.  (even the sheriff has investigated - she called them - they found zip. zilch. nada.)

[Lucy the Valiant]

I hope this picture works . . . look how HANDSOME he is! ❤️

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

My current dog has separation anxiety issues and  serious crate issues and it's possibly genetic (hounds are much more pack oriented than many other dogs due to hunting in packs) but also probably because when we got him at the age of 12 weeks he'd been born in one home, given to another, turned into a shelter, driven hundreds of miles in a crate (and he gets horribly carsick), placed in a foster home, placed in ANOTHER foster home, placed in an adoptive home, given up by the family that adopted him, and then came to me. All in his first 12 weeks! And then, I was homeschooling and my adult son was home and he basically never had much chance to be left alone. So he went from the extreme of "people go away and they really don't come back" to "these people NEVER leave" and that was a terrible set up. It's no wonder he has separation anxiety. He's getting better, but it's not great. 

 

We think our dog is part or all Carolina Dog (he was listed as a Shepherd mix but his behavior totally fits Carolina Dog temperament) so I am very curious about the genetic issue you are mentioning.

I am not 100% sure of our dog's story but we know he was found running loose, went to a shelter that planned to put him down due to timidity, and then was rescued by a local organization and put with a foster for three weeks when we adopted him. He's somewhere between 10 months and a year old. I wouldn't say he has severe separation anxiety because he doesn't destroy his current crate, but he *hates* the crate. I was told that he was crated by his foster and she said she didn't have problems. She had another dog, so I wonder if that was it? Or maybe he was still traumatized from his early life? I don't know, but now we have to physically lift him and put him in the crate. We feed him in the crate and throw treats in there, but I think we are going to have to crate him when we are home as you have mentioned. He is not quite the shadow that the o.p. is mentioning--he will stay on the couch on the 1st floor if we are upstairs and don't call him.

[ktgrok]

30 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

We think our dog is part or all Carolina Dog (he was listed as a Shepherd mix but his behavior totally fits Carolina Dog temperament) so I am very curious about the genetic issue you are mentioning.

I am not 100% sure of our dog's story but we know he was found running loose, went to a shelter that planned to put him down due to timidity, and then was rescued by a local organization and put with a foster for three weeks when we adopted him. He's somewhere between 10 months and a year old. I wouldn't say he has severe separation anxiety because he doesn't destroy his current crate, but he *hates* the crate. I was told that he was crated by his foster and she said she didn't have problems. She had another dog, so I wonder if that was it? Or maybe he was still traumatized from his early life? I don't know, but now we have to physically lift him and put him in the crate. We feed him in the crate and throw treats in there, but I think we are going to have to crate him when we are home as you have mentioned. He is not quite the shadow that the o.p. is mentioning--he will stay on the couch on the 1st floor if we are upstairs and don't call him.

By genetic I mean that some dogs are more fearful by temperament, some are more outgoing, etc. With herding breeds and guarding breeds in general they tend to be more "alert" and sensitive to any change in surroundings because that is important if you are keeping track of hundreds of sheep or guarding a flock or what have you. But in a suburban or urban environment that sensitivity to change can backfire, as there are SO MANY changes all the time. So for instance, one day Tara started alert barking and at first I couldn't figure out why, we were walking in our normal neighborhood. Turns out, there was a jeep with the spare tire mounted on the back door, like jeeps often do, and she noticed. In her experience, tires go on the bottom of the car, not on the back door, so that was novel and novel = possible threat as far as she was concerned. Another time, she went nuts and it was because a person had parked their boat in their yard to wash it. Yards had never held boats before, so novel, so threat. A labrador probably wouldn't have even NOTICED let alone gone on alert. So across breeds there are varying genetic tendencies, and then of course each individual dog has it's own genetic variability. So some shepherds are more relaxed and some are more sensitive, etc. 

You have to work with the dog you have, not the dog you want, and genetically there may be a lot of influences you have no control over. 

[Pen]

Explore things that might add calming and soothing benefit such as music or audiobook first played coupled with positive things like being petted while you are home ...

so then maybe the sound could help him in crate

And I agree with starting very short like just a second in crate with door shut.  

We had a rescue who flipped out about metal and plastic crates but loved a soft fabric one.  He could easily have broken out of the fabric one, but chose not to do so.  

 

——

in addition to working on crate training, maybe it could help to improve his outdoor warmth / comfort?

Is your boy able to use a doghouse?  If so another option might me an insulated doghouse within the barn perhaps with a heated pad if there is an electric source or if battery heat pads exist.   Eta or at least a pad that reflects dog’s own body heat back to the dog. 

A dog jacket could also help him. That is to be warm  outside - he may not like a jacket 

Our current dog gets too cold outdoors though, and after a winter “cold tail” episode, I don’t leave him alone outside in winter for more than a very short time. 

I see that your pup is fairly short furred, so that outside in winter might not be possible for yours.  

Edited January 28, 2019 by Pen