Any downside to concurrent enrollment if applying to selective universities?

[easypeasy]

Please don't quote! 🙂 Thank you! 🙂 ♥

DS and I are entering "contract renegotiations." lol We've always had a fairly clear plan for him. Since 7th grade, or so, he's been 50% music degree at a conservatory, 50% heading to law school and wanting a selective university for the undergrad.

Now that he's finishing up his sophomore year, he's now arrived at "The plan is 100% music." Mama's not thrilled, but what can you do with a musical kid? He is who he is, lol. 🙂

Our original plan was AP-heavy. Last year, he took two AP exams. This year, the goal was three, but it looks like he's wanting to re-neg to 1 exam (Psych) and 3 CLEPs (US History TO, US History SINCE, and MicroEcon), which... due to his current lackluster preparation (this year was, musically, a LOT more intense for him than either of us were prepared for when we made early-fall plans)... I find this new plan reasonable.

Next year, we're looking at mostly dual enrollment at the CC (online to keep it flexible). Problem is, I can't figure out "how much is too much," vs. "how much is not enough." His goal is to get into a music program that "doesn't care about his transcript or his test scores," which is fine. But, we're still going to AIM for those schools that care very much about both. One of his "interest" conservatories has a collaborative agreement with an Ivy league university, so we do want to make sure that he is at least, on paper, qualified to apply there. He's also very much interested in a professor at Baylor, and I KNOW they're going to care about academics, so... there's that as well.

Goals: He needs more time for music. But, he doesn't want a wimpy transcript. He's concerned that CC classes will look "less impressive" than a boatload of APs, but he just doesn't have enough hours in the day for that (APs are SO time-consuming and labor-intensive when compared to college classes, in our experience). I realize some kids can juggle it all, but he just cannot. He also is heavily invested in a sport that takes up around 3 hours/day 5-6 days/week that he isn't giving up (honestly, if he did, he would never move all day long! He would just studystudystudy and practicepracticepractice. Not healthy!). He asked about taking classes at the state flagship, but the cost is nearly triple the cost of the CC... I can't see the pros outweighing that quite enormous con.

He's had Bio (8th), Chem (9th), Physics (10th) and they are all drudgery for him - The original plan for next year was AP Calc and AP Physics - but he's taking AP Music Theory as well. If he does all three, I'm concerned he'll be in the same boat as this year (not enough time to practice and prepare for the performances/competitions he's involved with because of the heavy academic load...).

ALL of his friends who have taken similar paths (but were in public school) quit public/private school their senior year and "homeschooled." And by "homeschooled," I mean... practiced 100 hours per day and spent any "extra" time sleeping, eating, or traveling to/from auditions. I don't know their families well enough to ask nosy questions about their transcript. Some of them were in public-school-at-home sort of homeschool situations, so I know they had to do SOMETHING... but they sure talked to DS a LOT about doing NOTHING academic! lol So, I have no idea. Maybe basket weaving and ballroom dancing?!?? No idea!!! lol

Junior Year:

Semester 1: Comp I, American Government, Literature of some variety

Semester 2: Comp II, College Algebra, science... (Enviro Science, Meteorology, or Physical Geography?)

also, AP Music Theory

But, this is only FOUR high school credits, right? I can write up the music history he'll do as a class to count as another credit. But, the whole goal of this is to give him MORE time to spend with his music, so I don't want to fill it with busy work. Maybe design a class around music production or business management?

Senior Year:

no idea whatsoever. Maybe Calculus I the first semester? I'd almost prefer him to do AP Calculus, though... it's more spread out. So, maybe AP Calc AB and AP Physics C : Electricity and Magnetism

first semester: another Literature class, Geography?

Argh. We could also aim him toward *nearly* finishing a business/marketing-related Associate's degree, and just fill it up with some of those non-core requirements? Maybe that would feel less... random? Then he could finish that up if he wanted it to go alongside his B.M. degree.... But his "ultimate goal" is a DMA, so... I doubt he'd ever bother or need to finish an associate's in a non-musical field at the local community college...

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by easypeasy

[Frances]

I don’t know anything about conservatories or music majors, but if all the courses you have listed for junior year are CC courses except AP Music Theory, then I think it would be 7 high school credits plus more if you decide to do Music History. Also, for senior year, does the CC go directly from College Algebra to Calculus? At the CC here, Trig would be taken in between.

Were his previous science courses drudgery because they were too easy? Does he want to do more advanced Physics?  It seems like after junior year he would already have 4 science credits, so could skip AP Physics, unless of course that is an area of interest. Statistics or macroeconomics at the CC could be other possibilities. Where is he at with foreign language credits?

[easypeasy]

I forgot about the foreign language! That was the other class he could take at the CC - he could theoretically take four semesters there for Spanish. He's currently in high-school Spanish II. Can't believe I didn't write that down on my list.

I'll have to check the CC College Algebra continuation plan. I'm even more convinced, though, that we wouldn't do Calc at the CC. Right now he's in Pre-Calc. Of course, I will want him to do test-prep math his junior year.... so College Algebra + test prep math will probably be plenty for junior year.

Science... he just can't be bothered. It's too precise and too much memory (Chem and Bio) and too fussy for his liking. (funny, coming from a music kid, because I would describe music with ALL of those same adjectives... but what do I know? LoL!) When he DOES it, he does just fine and dandy. He started the year in AP Chemistry and actually really enjoyed the class itself for the challenge. Unfortunately, it took him all day, every day to just keep his head above water and not much else was getting done to either of our satisfaction. Some of the double-majors or gen-eds require at least 2 science classes, so ideally, he'd like to have those out of the way while still in high school so he can focus on music.

So you're counting each college semester as a full high school credit. I keep reading different POVs for that (the website for our CC says that each semester counts as a half-credit for high school... BUT when we enrolled dd for concurrent enrollment last year, the people enrolling her said the opposite and insisted that each class would be a full high school credit. So even the CC can't agree with itself! )

If each class is a full high-school credit, that makes things a lot easier to navigate. Because, as it is, if each is a half-credit, he'll have to be in a lot of classes (we usually like to hover around 6-7 high school credits) to look like he's taking a "full load." But that many classes won't give him that freedom we're seeking!

Maybe:

Junior Year:

Semester 1: Comp I, College Algebra, Spanish I

Semester 2: Comp II, Spanish II

also, AP Music Theory + Test-prep Math at home

CLEP: American Government summer between soph and junior year

Senior Year:

AP Physics C Electricity and Magnetism, AP Calc AB, Comparative Politics at home

first semester: a Literature class, Spanish III

second semester: as little as possible...

[mom1720]

3 hours ago, easypeasy said:

Some of the double-majors or gen-eds require at least 2 science classes, so ideally, he'd like to have those out of the way while still in high school so he can focus on music.

 

Can't help on the music end, but....since you're talking selective schools, you need to be careful here. Some schools -- my older DS goes to one -- will not allow you to "double dip", meaning if the college course was used for high school credits, then it can't be used for college credits. You need to check at each school.

Also, check on the CLEP credit if you're planning on using it to lighten his college load as well. Our state flagship, which is certainly not selective, only accepts a handful.

Good luck!

[alewife]

4 hours ago, easypeasy said:

I forgot about the foreign language! That was the other class he could take at the CC - he could theoretically take four semesters there for Spanish. He's currently in high-school Spanish II. Can't believe I didn't write that down on my list.

I'll have to check the CC College Algebra continuation plan. I'm even more convinced, though, that we wouldn't do Calc at the CC. Right now he's in Pre-Calc. Of course, I will want him to do test-prep math his junior year.... so College Algebra + test prep math will probably be plenty for junior year.

Science... he just can't be bothered. It's too precise and too much memory (Chem and Bio) and too fussy for his liking. (funny, coming from a music kid, because I would describe music with ALL of those same adjectives... but what do I know? LoL!) When he DOES it, he does just fine and dandy. He started the year in AP Chemistry and actually really enjoyed the class itself for the challenge. Unfortunately, it took him all day, every day to just keep his head above water and not much else was getting done to either of our satisfaction. Some of the double-majors or gen-eds require at least 2 science classes, so ideally, he'd like to have those out of the way while still in high school so he can focus on music.

So you're counting each college semester as a full high school credit. I keep reading different POVs for that (the website for our CC says that each semester counts as a half-credit for high school... BUT when we enrolled dd for concurrent enrollment last year, the people enrolling her said the opposite and insisted that each class would be a full high school credit. So even the CC can't agree with itself! )

If each class is a full high-school credit, that makes things a lot easier to navigate. Because, as it is, if each is a half-credit, he'll have to be in a lot of classes (we usually like to hover around 6-7 high school credits) to look like he's taking a "full load." But that many classes won't give him that freedom we're seeking!

Maybe:

Junior Year:

Semester 1: Comp I, College Algebra, Spanish I

Semester 2: Comp II, Spanish II

also, AP Music Theory + Test-prep Math at home

CLEP: American Government summer between soph and junior year

Senior Year:

AP Physics C Electricity and Magnetism, AP Calc AB, Comparative Politics at home

first semester: a Literature class, Spanish III

second semester: as little as possible...

Just a couple of thoughts...Your son won't have the math background necessary for AP Physics C Electricity and Magnetism.  If your son wants to take a calc-based physics course, imo, I would have him take AP Physics C- Mechanics. (Even that course, I think, is tough without having a calculus foundation going into the course, but it is doable.)

Also keep in mind that the first semester of senior year can be crazy busy with college application essays for some kids, depending on how many schools the student has on the list.  With that in mind, you may want to structure the year so the first semester is lighter than the second semester.

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't have a non-science  kid take physics C. If he is a decent math student, I also wouldn't have him go from pre-cal to college algebra since that is backtracking.

CLEP will not help him at elites. DE won't hurt him but whether it helps is a different question. 

[regentrude]

37 minutes ago, alewife said:

Just a couple of thoughts...Your son won't have the math background necessary for AP Physics C Electricity and Magnetism.  If your son wants to take a calc-based physics course, imo, I would have him take AP Physics C- Mechanics. (Even that course, I think, is tough without having a calculus foundation going into the course, but it is doable.)

This.

I would not have a student take CalcAB concurrently with AP Physics C; he should have calculus first. I would also not have a student take AP Physics E&M before Mechanics; mechanics should be first.

For a music major, I would not bother with calculus based physics at all.

Also, I would not have a student take calculus after only college algebra; he needs a trigonometry course first.

Edited January 26, 2019 by regentrude

[Roadrunner]

Nobody can do it all, especially not do it well. For a kid applying for music, his level of playing is going to be the single most important factor. So for an elite music school, you need an elite player and time should be spent on practice. I would say at least 3 hours a day and maybe more on weekends. Juliard doesn’t even ask for SATs from PS kids because it really is mostly about auditions. 

So I would make sure my kid has a good math foundation in case he changes his mind. So Calculus AB would be fine. Overall I would design lighter classes to accommodate his practice schedule. If he is a good enough player, lack of sciences APs shouldn’t matter. 

[catz]

I have an academic senior applying to music programs, mainly dual degree programs.

My son is doing his 2nd year of dual enrollment.  Is your son homeschooling now?  I personally think DE is a great stepping stone for homeschooled kids.  We're waiting on admissions results and my kid applied to a real hodge podge of schools.  But for example, he got into our flagship honors program (ACT 31-34) that accepts about 2-3% of students from the college he applied to.  As a homeschooled DE student.  He also got an unusual amount of merit there. 

I was going to say we choose to continue math at home for my kid because the CC wanted him to bump back to college algebra.  We actually slowed his math progression junior year to focus on ACT prep math and problem solving and he's doing AP calc this year (senior year) though we could have pushed for him to go to a higher math.  Didn't feel like a priority for a kid that wanted to major in music/possibly BA in a humanities area.

We counted 4-5 college credits as 1 high school credit.  I think that is pretty standard.  I counted 3 credit classes as .75 and 2 credits as .5.  I do feel like I could have counted 3 credit classes in many cases as 1.  But he has a ton of credits so it didn't really hurt to do it this way though I know plenty of people who count 3-5 credits as 1 high school credit.

When it comes to elites, I think you need to cross off some minimums.  4 years English, 4 years SS, 4 years math, 4 years science, 3-4 years FL.  As an unhooked applicant you want an SAT/ACT in the top half.  The question after that is what do you bring to the table that is unique.  If you are an prodigious and unique musician with an extensive resume and references that might be enough.    If you're from a locale they don't get many applications from, that might be enough.   If you are a homeschooler with a really unique transcript that shows a lot of self direction, that might be enough.   I think DE can be fine.  I think AP can be fine.   SAT-2's can be fine.  I think even CLEP can be ok.  I do think colleges like to see some corresponding strong data to go with an SAT/ACT score.   A DE transcript and GPA will follow you though unlike the other options.  

I don't think as a musician you need to be taking classes like AP Physics C.  My son did bio, chem, physics and took earth science with a lab at the CC.  I do think with a sophomore it's good to keep options open because who knows.  Things can change.  I think having setting your graduation requirements minimums covered on the academic side is good.   You don't have to do engineering MIT pre-reqs to still have engineering open to your kid.  My kid still could have gotten into very good engineering schools with his ACT score and transcript.   Allowing for a lighter school day so the kid has the flexibility to focus on music, ensembles, lessons, etc is good and that has worked well for my kid.  My kid is a faster reader and processor and gets through less favored areas quickly.  He still has far too much time to play video games and socialize.   😂  

My kid applied to a range of schools and he does want to be able to dual degree.  And from the more serious conservatories and even ones that have dual degree as an option we've gotten a very negative vibe about a musician splitting their focus.  Music majors ARE very busy.  And a lot of music faculty wants and expects full attention given.  If your kid is gung ho music, that is great.  If your kid really is multi-interested and wants more options, a competitive conservatory might prefer a singularly focused music student over a dual degree student.  Many if not all dual degree students we've spoken with added the 2nd degree after establishing themselves in the music program first.  A couple started on a college side and worked their tail off to get into a music prof's favor.  I'm sure that is unusual.  

All I would say is apply broadly.  Visit programs and try teachers whenever you can.   We had some surprises after visiting and talking to faculty. Know that everyone auditioning is talented.   There are actually some fantastic less competitive conservatory programs out there where musicians may get more attention and more options.  Love thy safety.   I do think audition is extremely important, but I also think conservatories can bounce you from consideration for all sorts of reasons (i.e. too many applicants from a single metro area, high yield last year, not quite clicking with a teacher, etc).  Especially if you are applying for more common instruments/areas.   My kid visited one option and had a fantastic lesson (teacher held him long) and day at this program.  At the end of the sample lesson the teacher asked if he was applying to our flagship's music school.  Kid said yes.  I honestly think that teacher was trolling to find out what kind of financial package kid was shooting for.  He wasn't invited to audition there.  

Edited January 26, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[easypeasy]

Thank you!

A couple points to clarify:

I meant Physics C Mechanics. Late-night posting caused me to forget which was first in the series. 😄 My daughter did AP Calc and AP Physics C : Mechanics concurrently and didn't have any problems with the material, so I figured ds could do the same.

For some reason, I thought College Algebra covered up through Pre-Calc plus some, not that it was backtracking. Both my girls tested into/ are testing into/beyond Calc at university, so we haven't had anyone take College Algebra yet. I thought it might contribute toward ACT review moreso than taking Calculus during the junior year... hmmm. He needs Math, but I'm not sure Calc during test-prep year is the best use of his time... The Test Prep is going to be of utmost importance.

We were going with the AP Physics because DD1 had taken it and it wasn't difficult for her. He's mathy and science-proficient, he just doesn't like it. lol Mayyybe, though, the best option would be to do Biology (different text from last time) since he took Bio in 8th. Then an earth science at the CC his senior year... That would check the boxes without adding a tremendous amount of work in a non-reward area. hmmmmm. That might work out perfectly, actually.

I think that many of you have said what we know: The music is THE most important part.... but man, it's hard for me to put all his eggs in that one basket. It's terrifying!

Yes, he's talented and extraordinarily hard-working. He'll have a music resume fifteen pages long (ok, we won't actually DO that... but he's hitting all the high notes), he does have a couple "admission hooks" (minority status, underrepresented geographical region for many of these schools). By the time applications roll around, he'll have studied with some of the best in the business (already has thanks to some camps he was accepted into last year), he has solid connections, and is a likable, on-time kid, which gets LOTS of props in this industry.

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

CLEP will not help him at elites. DE won't hurt him but whether it helps is a different question. 

So, would you recommend sticking to APs - or just developing a solid, thorough regular/honors-based program and sticking with that?

[Frances]

If you’re concerned about test prep overlapping with Calc, you could do Statistics junior year and then Calc senior year. Although I generally think it’s easier to take Calc right after pre-Calc. Or aim to get the test prep out of the way during the summer, as he will have finished all of the necessary math since he’s in pre-Calc now. My son did the PSAT and SAT fall of junior year and was done.

Personally, I would skip the CLEPs and do whatever combination of AP, DE, and at-home classes works best. I don’t think you need an outside grade or test score for every class. What APs did he do last year?

 

 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, easypeasy said:

We were going with the AP Physics because DD1 had taken it and it wasn't difficult for her. He's mathy and science-proficient, he just doesn't like it.

Why not have him do AP Physics 1 (or 1+2) instead of AP Physics C??? It's algebra based, a solid course, and for a student who does not like it, and who won't need calculus based physics, the better option. I would never choose a calc based AP for a student who does not absolutely love it and craves this level of course.

Edited January 26, 2019 by regentrude

[GoodGrief]

I've got a kid who was incredibly busy with extracurriculars (including heavy music commitments, though her college goals did not involve music) and is in her junior year at an Ivy now.

I would proceed with caution as far as dual enrollment with a kid who has an exceptionally full extracurricular schedule. You are giving up some flexibility and taking on the risk of grades that will not go away after graduation. If there are no other options for those sorts of classes, it might be your best choice, but it would never be my first choice for the student with many other commitments.

Because your goal is "selective schools", I would not assume that they will accept 8th grade biology as a high school science. Some will only look at classes taken in 9th-12th, with possible exceptions being foreign language and math. I like my non-specialized college bound kids to have 4 years of math/science/language arts/social studies/foreign language (not particularly for college prep purposes, but for general educational purposes.)

That said, it is possible that his musical ability is at a level that he can get away with less science and math on the transcript. Hard to say without knowing him and the programs that interest him.

I'd think about Derek Owens AP Calc AB. It can be done completely on his own time and Derek is great about answering questions. It's not a high pressure class, though it could be combined with tutoring if need be. I like the PA Homeschooler courses, though they do come with time pressure (the individual teachers are often willing to work with a student if complications arise), so it may or may not work with his life. They will certainly have more flexibility than a community college course though.

Personally, I think the test prep is best done separately from the core academics. You could invest in a program like Prep Scholar that offers some feedback, or get a prep book and practice tests. You can make yourself crazy trying to identify classes that don't have holes in content areas covered on the tests.

I agree with everyone that says skip the CLEPs. They don't seem to have much value for him. And utilize your summers for courses if necessary.

Edited January 26, 2019 by GoodGrief

[catz]

So my dual enrollment kid has done the vast majority of his classes online through a local community college.  He took 2-3 classes per semester and we intentionally picked some classes we thought he could excel in first semester as a trial.  He did take a comp and a comp 2 class on campus that just met one day a week.  So that's how we fit it into this kid's nutty schedule which includes 3-4 music lessons a week, music ensemble stuff, auditioned weekly singer-actor classes, youth to regional theater productions periodically several with 6 week runs and local touring, practice, and other random things at times.  

I will also say dual enrollment is free in our state so that makes it a pretty easy choice to at least try.  Had we needed to pay, we may have chose differently.   Though we don't have a good local resource for AP options either. The advantage of having that live class is it gave my kid an amazing academic reference.  But there are other ways to get that too.  I just wanted to throw that out there because it did work well for my very busy extracurricular kid and it gave him some structure to keep things moving forward and he has maintained a 4.0 in his dual enroll classes.   He does work very quickly.  He is efficient with his music practice too.

[Eos]

I'm sorry to quote, but does "100% music" mean a performance degree?  I was repeatedly told at my daughter's conservatory auditions that auditions count for about 80% of admission, academics for 20%.  They also want to see attendance at intensive summer music festivals during the high school years, which he's already been doing. It doesn't have to be basket weaving, but it sounds like he has the academic bases covered. Prioritizing practice time is my best advice. My best to you and him!

Edited January 28, 2019 by Harpymom

[chiguirre]

Baylor accepts boatloads of TX CC credits and  quite a few CLEPs:

https://www.baylor.edu/registrar/index.php?id=86538

https://www.baylor.edu/irt/index.php?id=74593

There policies are similar to UT Austin and TAMU (and most other colleges in TX with the exception of Rice which is important to consider for a potential music major).

[lewelma]

I would proceed with caution as far as dual enrollment with a kid who has an exceptionally full extracurricular schedule. You are giving up some flexibility and taking on the risk of grades that will not go away after graduation.

Music practice, rehearsals, performances, etc take a ton of time, especially because of the travelling and one-off nature of a lot of it. My impression from what you wrote is that it is way too much. I agree with GoodGrief that doing so many dual enrollment courses will hamper your music practice, or vice versa. We found that getting to the university for lectures throughout the week really reduced the time available to work by breaking up the day.  

What you need for selective schools is enough external grades to support your internal grades.  My DS did two university courses and the equivalent of 4 AP courses and a music performance diploma through ABRSM. He also took 6 AoPS courses. The rest was done at home. Most of the home grown courses were so fun for my ds because we could simply grab what he was already interested in and doing, and just add a bit of academic rigor to make it into a course.  So he read the Economist every single night for 4 years which we regularly discussed.  Add a few papers and you have a current events class.  For Biology he already had a deep knowledge of Biology from middle school, so we focused on what he was most interested in which was genetic engineering and things like CRISPR and gene therapy. He read Scientific American over the course of 4 years, so I went back through the magazines to see what he had covered. He is also a mathy kid, so we ramped up the biology with statistical analysis of data rather than with memorizing a ton of content like a standard AP course. We added two research paper and two other papers, and called this a course. This was fun and not a box-ticking chore, and it also got him working on his writing, which was a more important skill for him than memorizing a biology textbook. Then, I made sure to write up very clearly what we did, which sounded way more interesting than standard courses.

So if you have the time and interest, you can save him time for music by creating homegrown courses in his area of interest rather than working through dual enrollment. 

Ruth in NZ 

[GoodGrief]

26 minutes ago, lewelma said:

What you need for selective schools is enough external grades to support your internal grades. 

 

That was how it played out for my daughter as well. I'm not sure that you "need" the external grades, but it does simplify the application process a bit, in my opinion. We saved the dual enrollment for coursework that was necessary but couldn't be easily achieved another way. For her, it was advanced math coursework and a specific foreign language. We used SAT subject tests and AP tests to validate grades as well, because that made the most sense for her lifestyle 🙂 CLEP might serve that purpose too, though I'm not sure those tests are viewed the same way as SAT/AP exams by selective schools (only mentioning "selective schools" because that was your stated goal.) But CLEP might be just fine, and possibly preferable to dual enrollment depending on what else he has going on.

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by GoodGrief

[alewife]

On 1/26/2019 at 6:38 PM, GoodGrief1 said:

 

I would proceed with caution as far as dual enrollment with a kid who has an exceptionally full extracurricular schedule. You are giving up some flexibility and taking on the risk of grades that will not go away after graduation. If there are no other options for those sorts of classes, it might be your best choice, but it would never be my first choice for the student with many other commitments.

 

Fwiw, I agree 100% with this.  My kids are at selective schools and did not have any dual enrollment classes on their transcripts because the classes would have interfered too much with their extracurriculars (research for my oldest and athletics for my middle kid)  

They had a handful of online classes between them on their transcripts: PA Homeschoolers, WTMA, and Eimacs, but I am not sure how much weight those grades carried with admissions offices because they were all completed at home.  They did, however, have a lot of outside validation in the form of SAT, SAT II's, AIME, and AP scores to back up the grades that were stated on the transcript.

I would choose the path that is going to provide your son with the best educational foundation.  For us homeschoolers, I feel the test scores will carry far more weight than anything else and the adcoms are not going to care how your child went about learning the material, whether it be at home or DE.

 

[Corraleno]

It sounds like your primary reason for choosing to take a lot of DE courses, as well as doing some CLEPs, is to demonstrate rigor and validate grades rather than getting credit at the 4-yr college where he eventually enrolls, is that correct? 

As others have mentioned, CLEPs are not likely to impress elite schools, and a bunch of DE courses may not either, if the schools don't know anything about the rigor and quality of the courses at your local CC. At least APs are standardized. However, I think the assumption that kids need tons of APs to impress elite schools is inaccurate, and largely comes from the fact that in many public schools, APs are literally the only option for demonstrating rigor, as well as a necessity for ensuring a class rank in the top X% of the graduating class when schools weight GPAs. Happily, homeschoolers don't have either of those issues! We have a lot more options for demonstrating both course rigor and passionate interests, so I would look for other ways to make your son's transcript stand out, instead of trying to mimic a standard PS transcript.

Has your son taken any online DE courses yet? DS has found that his online classes are actually more time-consuming that his in-person classes, because there are a lot more piddly little assignments, mini-quizzes, required posts in online discussions, etc. Since college classes are supposed to require a specific number of hours per credit awarded, online courses often have more busywork than in-person classes to make up for the missing in-class hours. And since many students struggle to stay on track with online classes, the multitude of weekly assignments is also designed to prevent students from procrastinating too much and falling too far behind. So that's just a heads-up that if you are trying to minimize busy work and allow your son more time for music, then taking a lot of online DE courses may have the opposite effect. I would be more inclined to do a couple of APs in high-interest subjects and then do the rest of his coursework at home with a high-input, low out-put approach — maybe Great Courses lectures, readings, discussions, and a few essays or a couple of research papers, with a lot of flexibility to work around his practice and performance schedule.

Regarding math, I'm confused when you say that your son is currently in Precalculus but is planning to take College Algebra next year, because College Algebra is usually the first half of Precalc when Precalc is spread over two semesters instead of one. The second semester would be Trig. If he is doing Precalc now, then the next step would be Calc, if he wants to take that, or he could do Stats instead.

[lewelma]

 I would be more inclined to do a couple of APs in high-interest subjects and then do the rest of his coursework at home with a high-input, low out-put approach — maybe Great Courses lectures, readings, discussions, and a few essays or a couple of research papers, with a lot of flexibility to work around his practice and performance schedule.

YES!  My ds did a lot of music and extracurriculars, and this was our approach. He got top marks on 2 university courses, 4 AP equivalents, 2 SAT2s, and the SAT.  Homegrown for the rest made for time to do all the other stuff he wanted to do. This approach reduced busywork, let him learn what he was passionate about, and let him show off his originality as a homeschooler. 

[easypeasy]

On 1/26/2019 at 7:25 PM, FuzzyCatz said:

So my dual enrollment kid has done the vast majority of his classes online through a local community college.  He took 2-3 classes per semester and we intentionally picked some classes we thought he could excel in first semester as a trial.  He did take a comp and a comp 2 class on campus that just met one day a week.  So that's how we fit it into this kid's nutty schedule which includes 3-4 music lessons a week, music ensemble stuff, auditioned weekly singer-actor classes, youth to regional theater productions periodically several with 6 week runs and local touring, practice, and other random things at times.  

I will also say dual enrollment is free in our state so that makes it a pretty easy choice to at least try.  Had we needed to pay, we may have chose differently.   Though we don't have a good local resource for AP options either. The advantage of having that live class is it gave my kid an amazing academic reference.  But there are other ways to get that too.  I just wanted to throw that out there because it did work well for my very busy extracurricular kid and it gave him some structure to keep things moving forward and he has maintained a 4.0 in his dual enroll classes.   He does work very quickly.  He is efficient with his music practice too.

We'd have to pay, but a discounted price. It's still significantly cheaper than online AP classes, though!

 

15 hours ago, Harpymom said:

I'm sorry to quote, but does "100% music" mean a performance degree?  I was repeatedly told at my daughter's conservatory auditions that auditions count for about 80% of admission, academics for 20%.  They also want to see attendance at intensive summer music festivals during the high school years, which he's already been doing. It doesn't have to be basket weaving, but it sounds like he has the academic bases covered. Prioritizing practice time is my best advice. My best to you and him!

Yes, 100% music means a performance degree. *sigh* (I'm getting on board... just need some mourning time! LOL) We've been told the same about auditions >>> academics or anything else. It's just... difficult for me to trust that. Terrifying. He's very good, but it's a competitive instrument in a competitive world! 😄

 

15 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Baylor accepts boatloads of TX CC credits and  quite a few CLEPs:

https://www.baylor.edu/registrar/index.php?id=86538

https://www.baylor.edu/irt/index.php?id=74593

There policies are similar to UT Austin and TAMU (and most other colleges in TX with the exception of Rice which is important to consider for a potential music major).

VERY interesting and might keep Baylor high on the list. He doesn't love the thought of living in Waco, but the students there are outstanding and the professor even moreso.

 

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

What you need for selective schools is enough external grades to support your internal grades.  My DS did two university courses and the equivalent of 4 AP courses and a music performance diploma through ABRSM. He also took 6 AoPS courses. The rest was done at home. Most of the home grown courses were so fun for my ds because we could simply grab what he was already interested in and doing, and just add a bit of academic rigor to make it into a course.  So he read the Economist every single night for 4 years which we regularly discussed.  Add a few papers and you have a current events class.  For Biology he already had a deep knowledge of Biology from middle school, so we focused on what he was most interested in which was genetic engineering and things like CRISPR and gene therapy. He read Scientific American over the course of 4 years, so I went back through the magazines to see what he had covered. He is also a mathy kid, so we ramped up the biology with statistical analysis of data rather than with memorizing a ton of content like a standard AP course. We added two research paper and two other papers, and called this a course. This was fun and not a box-ticking chore, and it also got him working on his writing, which was a more important skill for him than memorizing a biology textbook. Then, I made sure to write up very clearly what we did, which sounded way more interesting than standard courses.

Okaaaaaayyyyyy. Now, this we could do. I did this for my oldest, but ds has always been a "plug and play" kid and I haven't had to be creative in a while. He DOES a lot of reading and researching that I really could frame a class outline around as opposed to having him carve out time to do a "scholarly" course that fits a traditional mold. Hmmm... HMMMMMM.... hmmmmm.... This. This is a thing that can be done. It won't help with Math, but I'm thinking Derek Owens Calc I and then AP Stats senior year might be the way to go.

So if you have the time and interest, you can save him time for music by creating homegrown courses in his area of interest rather than working through dual enrollment. 

Ruth in NZ 

 

8 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

 We used SAT subject tests and AP tests to validate grades as well, because that made the most sense for her lifestyle 🙂 CLEP might serve that purpose too, though I'm not sure those tests are viewed the same way as SAT/AP exams by selective schools (only mentioning "selective schools" because that was your stated goal.) But CLEP might be just fine, and possibly preferable to dual enrollment depending on what else he has going on.

The SATII dates are ALWAYS on absolutely horrible weekends for my kids. We've had no luck. (I'm talking international competitions, or invitations to master classes with once-in-a-lifetime type musicians....). Might have to bite the bullet jr or sr year, though, if nothing just "falls into place..." The times they've had open weekends on those dates, they needed to take the ACTUAL SAT and couldn't fit in a subject test!

 

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It sounds like your primary reason for choosing to take a lot of DE courses, as well as doing some CLEPs, is to demonstrate rigor and validate grades rather than getting credit at the 4-yr college where he eventually enrolls, is that correct? 

Mostly, yes. Getting credit for some gen-eds would be a lovely bonus, though!

. I would be more inclined to do a couple of APs in high-interest subjects and then do the rest of his coursework at home with a high-input, low out-put approach — maybe Great Courses lectures, readings, discussions, and a few essays or a couple of research papers, with a lot of flexibility to work around his practice and performance schedule.

High-input, low-output. Yes, I could see this working. My rusty gears are starting to turn...

Regarding math, I'm confused when you say that your son is currently in Precalculus but is planning to take College Algebra next year, because College Algebra is usually the first half of Precalc when Precalc is spread over two semesters instead of one. The second semester would be Trig. If he is doing Precalc now, then the next step would be Calc, if he wants to take that, or he could do Stats instead.

In the math case, specifically, I was hoping to get that college credit out of the way. Many of the programs he's looking at only require 3 credits math. He won't get that credit for the PreCalc he's taking now... but he would for a semester of College Algebra without having to up the difficulty to Calculus... but he's now saying he'd like to get through Calc and even Stats and maybe lighten up on the foreign language and risk having to take it in college. So, we're still muddling through ideas...

 

Thank you Thank you all! Much great information to chew on!! I think I've just gotten into a rut of mindless, boring homeschool options (he's been "outsourced" for almost everything for two years) and needed the nudge to step back outside the box. Much appreciated! 🙂

[lewelma]

Okaaaaaayyyyyy. Now, this we could do. I did this for my oldest, but ds has always been a "plug and play" kid and I haven't had to be creative in a while. He DOES a lot of reading and researching that I really could frame a class outline around as opposed to having him carve out time to do a "scholarly" course that fits a traditional mold. Hmmm... HMMMMMM.... hmmmmm.... This. This is a thing that can be done. It won't help with Math, but I'm thinking Derek Owens Calc I and then AP Stats senior year might be the way to go.

Here is my Biology and Current Events course write ups to give you a feel for how a nonstandard course can accomplish so much in little extra time and still sound great and original to adcoms. He was already doing all this reading because he loves to read, all we did was add some writing and a biology lab. 

Biology with Lab. (1 credit)

This second-year Biology course covered cell biology, molecular biology, genetics, evolution, ecology, animal diversity, and biostatistics. The laboratory component included a large-scale investigation focusing on how biotic and abiotic factors affect competition and predation in the rocky intertidal zone. It required familiarity with the ecological literature, identification of an interesting question, and the design of appropriate methods. This course had a strong statistical component and results were analyzed using R (The R Project for Statistical Computing). The course also included a unit on human manipulation of genetic transfer including recombinant DNA, amplification with PCR, recombinant plasmids, transgenesis, CRISPR, gene therapy, and cloning. Course requirements included statistical analyses, a scientific paper, a research paper, and short essays.

Contemporary World Problems.  (1 credit)

This course covered political, economic, social, and environmental problems and sought to examine current events from a historical perspective. The course explored relationships between events, evaluated competing beliefs and goals, and identified bias. Scientific and technological advancements were also studied to better understand the part they play in solving some of the world’s most difficult problems. Periodicals were read year-round throughout high school, yielding 800 hours of reading. Course requirements included reading assignments, participation in discussions, short essays, and a research paper.

 

 

 

 

[easypeasy]

22 hours ago, lewelma said:

 

Here is my Biology and Current Events course write ups to give you a feel for how a nonstandard course can accomplish so much in little extra time and still sound great and original to adcoms. He was already doing all this reading because he loves to read, all we did was add some writing and a biology lab.

 

Seriously. Thank you SO much! I really needed a jolt to get out of the educational quagmire I was in. Somewhere along the way, I forgot that we can tailor this education to serve DS's needs and not to serve the Institution's first glance. 🙂

Third kid is so tricky! 🤣

[lewelma]

I'm so glad to help!  When we were trying to figure out how in the world my mathy ds got a 780 on the SAT CR, we realized that he did a hell of a lot of reading and thinking in his own time, and I worked to create courses out of these unschooling subjects.  Here are two more that came out of his own reading, without any formal course designed until the very end. 

1) DS loves philosophical novels, which led him to read up on various areas of philosophy over many years.  He also got interested in the ethics of Justice, and read Godel, Escher, and Bach, so I threw those in as well. In the end, it sounds pretty cohesive, which in hindsight it was. But at the time he was just following his passions where they led him......

The History of Western Thought. (1 credit)

This course examined the development of the western intellectual tradition from the Greeks through to 20th-century thinkers. Topics included metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and political philosophy. The course examined the rational basis of belief in all areas of inquiry, and taught critical and creative thinking and how to construct a cogent argument. In addition to studying the great thinkers of each era, influential philosophical novels by classic authors were read and discussed including Voltaire, Dostoyevsky, Borges, Camu, and Hemingway. The course also took a detour into the philosophy of consciousness and how it can be analytically modelled. Course requirements included reading assignments, participation in discussions, and short essays.

Texts: Think: A Compelling Introduction to Philosophy, by Simon Blackburn

The Twenty Greatest Philosophy Books, by James Garvey

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, by Douglas Hofstadter

Justice. EdX. Harvard University

 

2) We knew ds needed economics for American universities, but he had neither the time nor the interest to work through a standard curriculum.  So we took turns at night reading out-loud to each other Piketty's Capital.  It was crazy hard for us at first, so we had to go look up terms, make lists, and really think about what in the world Piketty was discussing. We spent an equal amount of time reading and discussing.  It was awesome, and didn't feel like work -- just being together. Notice that this course lists no output, but yet doesn't sound baby because it wasn't!  

The Economics of Inequality. (0.5 credits)

Using Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century, this course evaluated and analyzed the history, theory, and implications of inequality in the world. The focus was on understanding how historical data can aid in understanding past and present trends in multiple countries. The length of the book (700 pages) required complex arguments to be tracked and reconstructed, and its focus on using evidence such as facts, statistics, examples, and expert opinions encouraged a nuanced understanding of the nature of evidence and how it should be evaluated. Great Courses lectures were used to provide the necessary background on economic growth, the business cycle, the global economy, unemployment, inflation, and economic policy. The Economist was used to understand macroeconomics in the context of current events and across many different economic and political systems. The course included reading assignments and participation in discussions.

Texts: Capital in the Twenty-First Century, by Thomas Piketty

The Economist

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by lewelma

[GoodGrief]

I don't want to quote you @easypeasy, as requested, but re: the SAT subject tests, keep in mind that many selective universities will require or recommend a certain number of those, so if you can make room in the schedule for those, it would be to your student's benefit (again, if selective is the goal.) There are test optional schools, but unless they have said they absolutely don't consider test scores, it's generally going to be to his advantage to have a couple of subject tests. Now if you are having to choose between once in a lifetime music opportunities, absolutely choose those. But there are many test dates, so hopefully you can make something work 🙂

[easypeasy]

5 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

I don't want to quote you @easypeasy, as requested, but re: the SAT subject tests, keep in mind that many selective universities will require or recommend a certain number of those, so if you can make room in the schedule for those, it would be to your student's benefit (again, if selective is the goal.) There are test optional schools, but unless they have said they absolutely don't consider test scores, it's generally going to be to his advantage to have a couple of subject tests. Now if you are having to choose between once in a lifetime music opportunities, absolutely choose those. But there are many test dates, so hopefully you can make something work 🙂

 

Just today, actually, I entered in all the available dates for the remainder of this year - and those for next year. This way we'll know well in advance what's coming up and can see the bigger picture. I put the info into my phone calendar AND into my paper planner AND into his college planner AND onto my "big picture" planner. Surely that'll help! 😂

[Arch at Home]

5 hours ago, easypeasy said:

 

Just today, actually, I entered in all the available dates for the remainder of this year - and those for next year. This way we'll know well in advance what's coming up and can see the bigger picture. I put the info into my phone calendar AND into my paper planner AND into his college planner AND onto my "big picture" planner. Surely that'll help! 😂

This will definitely help. I would also recommend making a list of possible schools and perusing their requirements, what is optional, what they accept, and what they don’t. By doing this and logging the info in a spreadsheet, I was able to see the trends of my DC’s choices and and together DC and I were able to make more informed choices. 

Best of luck in this process. 

[Reefgazer]

We are in the very similar debate with DD this year.  DD wants to train horses and is going to college for a degree in animal/equine science.  We are preparing her for whatever level of college she winds up at, whether that’s highly competitive or not.  However,  now we are starting to see that her experience and hands on capabilities will count much more than her degree and so we are cutting back on the high pressure academics in order to spend the majority of her time with horses.   We are currently negotiating how to do that, keeping in mind that academic rigor will probably play a factor in the merit aid she receives.

 

[...................]

the only downside I can think of, to doing a lot of concurrent enrollment, is that some highly selective top tier colleges will not apply those credits toward their degree (aka columbia, UPenn, Cornell, etc.) They look good for the high school transcript and they see them as just as good as AP classes, but they just want students to take their own classes to earn their degree there.

 

[JennyD]

This is a very helpful thread; OP, thanks so much for starting it.

My oldest DS will be a 9th grader next year and I have been struggling with how to balance the need for outside validation with our desire to really take advantage of the academic freedom that homeschooling affords us.  

[daijobu]

I don't know if this helps, but music major and law school are not mutually exclusive.  Your music major can decide later to apply to law school if he changes his mind.  

[RootAnn]

Yep. 

33 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I don't know if this helps, but music major and law school are not mutually exclusive.  Your music major can decide later to apply to law school if he changes his mind.  

Local kid majored in music. Dropped out for a bit. Finished his degree at a different school and then headed to law school.

Ended up graduating first in his class last year. Apparently, he thought out of the box compared to most of his peers, and that was a positive.

[lewelma]

I wrote about our grading approach a couple of days ago and it seemed like an interesting addition to this thread:

 I never gave grades and never considered grading anything, ever. There were three reasons for this. 1) I just wanted to teach the love of learning and was very unstructured in my approach to the point of no clear cut courses even in high school, 2) NZ is an exam based entrance university system, so homeschool courses would NOT count for anything so there was no reason to give grades, and 3) he did not decide to apply to American universities until April of his Junior year.  So as I went into making an American style transcript of our homeschool journey, I had to both create courses from what he read and wrote about, and I had to create grades out of thin air for courses that were years in the past. I will always remember the generosity of some members on this board for taking the time to sort through my often belabored descriptions of what we had studied over the prior 3 years, make sense of it, and recommend how to organize it into courses that admissions folk would understand. 

Basically for grades, I retro-fitted what seemed appropriate given all his standardized testing.

1) Excellences in NZ national math exams, NZ IMO math team for 3 years = all prior math courses earned As

2) Excellences in NZ national writing exams, 780 in SAT verbal, 20 on SAT essay = all prior English and humanities style writing courses earned As

3) Excellences in NZ national physics and chemistry exams = all prior Science courses (including Bio) earned As

4) ABRSM distinctions on music exams - all prior music courses earned As

5) Courses created from his 3000+ hours of reading (Contemporary World Problems, Philosophy, Comparative Government, World History, and Economics) -- All As because he put in way more hours than required for a standard Carnegie credit and read content above high school level (War and Peace, Capital, Godel Esher and Bach, etc).  I made it very clear in my course descriptions that grades were based on readings and discussion (no output whatsoever for 2 of them (stated clearly on course descriptions), and for 3 of them that had a small amount of writing, grades were also based off the of the composition exams he took #2 above).

Basically, they required grades, and I had none. I did what I could to make clear the effort put forth and the knowledge and skills learned, and I made this clear in the only way they could understand which was grades. No school questioned the grades I gave. My counselor's letter discussed how these unstructured courses emerged over time through his own interests. 

Hope this helps,

Ruth in NZ