Opinion discussion: How do you feel about public schools distributing

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, dmmetler said:

When I went to my first college dorm meeting, we were handed a little box that contained condoms, and were told to carry it with us-that even if we didn’t need it, someone else might, and we should feel as comfortable asking another girl for a condom as for a tampon. That they were always available in the dorm offices, RAs had them, and student health. It was drilled into us that not only should  we be responsible for ourselves,  but our sisters as well (and this was a theme all year in the freshman dorm-that college women needed to stick together and support each other). 

 

I’d been on campus a month before I was asked for a condom (by a girlfriend of my boyfriend’s housemate)-agroup of us were gaming in the living room, when she came out of the bedroom and asked if anyone had one. All the girls present did-none of the guys did. 

 

 

This. As a RA, I kept a huge jar of condoms, lube, etc. near my door (funded by the nurse’s office at the university). Most people on my floor kept supplies on hand for others even if they themselves didn’t need the supplies.

[prairiewindmomma]

Dental dams.

I was handed the supplies by the university after 6 students in my dorm tested positive for STDs, including a couple with HIV.

It was a health service intervention, coupled with educational presentations about safe sex, STDs, testing services (and abstinence).

ETA: the educational presentations were done by university health officials and the county health department

edited again to fix typos: the teen boys in the background are arguing loudly about historical sword designs

Edited January 22, 2019 by prairiewindmomma

[Sneezyone]

58 minutes ago, Ellie said:

A good part of the reason it isn't effective is all the media showing people joyfully not saying "no."

It wasn’t effective when my Dad was a teen either and birth control was virtually illegal. What’s the old folks’ excuse?

[Annie G]

I have no problem with it, especially since Quill said there is a comprehensive sex ed program in place. 

[Tanaqui]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t disagree. We live in a litigious society tho.

 

We live in a society without single-payer health care, which means that insurance companies squabble over who pays for what when people get sick or injured. Most of the time when you hear of a case of Doe v Roe where Doe tripped and broke their ankle on Roe's sidewalk or Roe got a minor allergic reaction that had to be treated in Urgent Care after Doe gave them a painkiller, what you're really seeing is Doe's Insurance v Roe's Insurance. And all our premiums go up.

With that said, I fully support condoms available to teens, in a basket so nobody has to see you taking one or a dozen. I'd also like it if they'd trust our *teens* to manage their own medication, especially OTC meds, unless we specifically wrote in saying otherwise. I don't think those two issues are at all connected.

[TravelingChris]

I would agree with condoms in a basket, not with the nurse.  Unlike hormonal birth control (which is a no- no to at least 8-10 % of European ancestry women and also for a lot of other women), condoms would only be bad for someone with a latex allergy. Presumably they would know not to take one.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

Considering how a student's pregnancy disrupts her education, and how much schools likely spend trying to get teen moms back into and through high school, and the likelihood that the mom who doesn't get through will raise that little one in poverty and the schools will be dealing with him/her as a kindergartner in ~6 years, I think it makes sense for schools to throw a few hundred dollars a year per school--the cost of one laptop?--at this problem and see if it helps anybody.

A whole lot of high school students are 18 or 19. Depending on your state, it is now the norm for students to be 18 at least for the whole senior year based on K cut-offs, with a fair number of  kids a year older than that because of delayed K entrance or staying back a year. And the age of consent in many states is below 18.

I opted to wait for sex (so DH, my high school boyfriend, did not have a choice w/o breaking up with me!). I'm encouraging my kid to do the same, but I think condoms should be available without a stigma and without parental cooperation. I also chose not to drink. It looks like significant numbers of youth are not so risk-averse, and nearly all will choose both to drink alcohol and to have sex by early adulthood, so I prefer that we normalize condoms, designated drivers, and other harm-reduction steps even as we counsel delaying risky behaviors.

To the bolded: So? There are three grades in our high school filled with kids who are almost never over 18 (unless they have special educational needs or something). So at least 3/4 of the student body of the high schools here are minors. If we were saying showing proof of age meant kids >18 could get condoms, you might have a point. But you don’t say since some kids are over 18, it should be available to all. That’s nonsense. 

Back when the legal drinking age was 18, many high school seniors could legally drink alcohol; doesn’t mean high school dances served alcohol. 

[Tanaqui]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I have never heard of "dental dams" and am afraid to google, but I am making the assumption of what they are based on the name.  But, at least that's a better sort of "supply" than I was envisioning, at least coupled with the idea that lube is being passed out lol.  

 

If you are concerned about what will pop up if you google a term of this nature, but want to educate yourself, a safe source is Scarleteen. You can either go to their site and search there or, as I did, google "$TERM scarleteen" and see what pops up. I've gone ahead and linked to the relevant article there rather than the front page of the website. You'll have to scroll down a little, they discuss other, more well-known barrier methods of STI prevention first.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

It sounds like you expect teenagers to have unsupervised access to stores/gas stations. Many don't. I didn't. And I lived in a city.

In high school, I had no money (not allowed to work, needed at home) and no way to get anywhere (was only able to date DH because he had access to a car) . Like, I went to the public library twice? in four years, whereas in adulthood I'm there every week. My grandmothers bought all my clothes (bless them, they gave my mom money some of the time so I had some input and could try shoes on). I did not buy any food. I could not have had a birth control budget, and if I did, I could not have had access to a store. (I don't think the corner store sold anything but junk food.) I chose not to have sex, but I think expecting that of 100% of teens is unreasonable.

Maybe I should say "unrealistic," in light of actual human behavior now and in history. I know all my grandparents were having unprotected sex in the '50s by age 18, because I can subtract. 🙂

*shrug* My family was dirt poor and my parents were major Bible-thumpers. But I worked and so did my bf. We always had the necessary supplies. 

I would seriously question the wisdom of giving such piss-poor, no-resources, unsupportive-family teens free condoms, thinking that solves some problem. Where is this magical society where a teen in such a situation as that is only going to have sex when armed with his school-issued raincoat? When happens on summer break, holidays, weekends? Do these kids suddenly become chaste? Do they go get a job so they can afford protection? 

I just don’t get why we are treating these young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. It seems like more of the Helpless generation messaging. 

Just FTR, I am not a big proponent of virginal wedding days or wait till marriage messaging. If someone chooses that, fine, but I’m just filling in my perspective; I am not saying free condoms are bad because then teens will have sex. That isn’t my issue at all. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I’m curious if the people who are against free condoms in schools are also against abortions or welfare.  

Well, I haven’t fully decided what I think about the free condom thing; hence, this discussion, but I am in favor of legal access to abortion nation-wide. There are some tricky sub-issues I am not sure how I land (such as a minor girl getting an abortion without parental help/assistance), but overall - pro-choice. I am also in favor of public assistance, once again, ambivalent about some sub-issues or parameters but, overall - in favor of assistance. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

There’s such a thing as a latex allergy, though. 

I still see it as inconsistent, because if the risk inherant in a school nurse giving a student Tylanol is some potential allergy or misdose, how is there not a risk in giving prophelactics, which is tacitly condoning sex, which can absolutely lead to pregnancy or STDs either with a c@ndom, or in another instance wherein the teens were fresh out of their school supplies? 

It’s as though there is a belief - one I view as faulty - that if they are available for free from the school health aid, suddenly these otherwise-not-necessarily-responsible teens are going to use them correctly and consistently. (Besides which, they are not 100% even with correct and consistent use.) If there’s liability in saying, “The school nurse gave my son Tylanol, to which he is violently allergic, and he almost died,” isn’t there also liability in saying, “The school nurse gave my son three c@ndoms, which he used over the weekend; one broke and now he is testing as HIV-positive.”? 

 

Legally "tacitly condoning sex" has no meaning when determining liability.  The medication restrictions are an overreaction and most have no real basis in liability law either.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

2 hours ago, Ellie said:

A good part of the reason it isn't effective is all the media showing people joyfully not saying "no."

Yes, as well know premarital sex was completely unknown until the wicked media changed society.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

Condoms are available without a stigma and without parental cooperation. It's called a store. Or if that's uncomfortable I happen to know plenty of gas stations that stock them in vending machines in the bathroom in all sorts of colors and flavors. 

I really don't understand this idea that teenagers are mature enough to have sex but not mature enough to be responsible for paying for their own supplies.

 

Believing teens are mature enough to have sex /= understanding that many will still have sex.

[Frances]

44 minutes ago, Quill said:

*shrug* My family was dirt poor and my parents were major Bible-thumpers. But I worked and so did my bf. We always had the necessary supplies. 

I would seriously question the wisdom of giving such piss-poor, no-resources, unsupportive-family teens free condoms, thinking that solves some problem. Where is this magical society where a teen in such a situation as that is only going to have sex when armed with his school-issued raincoat? When happens on summer break, holidays, weekends? Do these kids suddenly become chaste? Do they go get a job so they can afford protection? 

I just don’t get why we are treating these young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. It seems like more of the Helpless generation messaging. 

Just FTR, I am not a big proponent of virginal wedding days or wait till marriage messaging. If someone chooses that, fine, but I’m just filling in my perspective; I am not saying free condoms are bad because then teens will have sex. That isn’t my issue at all. 

By making free condoms available at school, I don’t think we are treating young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. We’re simply providing one option among many. I don’t see it as any different than providing free or low cost birth control at Planned Parenthood or other such clinics, just more convenient. And those appointments also come with information, just like comprehensive sex education with free condoms at a high school. Many adults aren’t practicing safe, responsible sex, so I would certainly expect at least the same level of irresponsibility among teens. 

I will say that I would prefer that schools are emphasizing condoms combined with another method of birth control to increase the odds of preventing pregnancy.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

On 1/21/2019 at 6:16 PM, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Yes, as well know premarital sex was completely unknown until the wicked media changed society.

A 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Frances

[Guest]

5 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

And this bothers me. The idea that we're putting out bowls of condoms like we used to put out bowls of mints says, "Hey, this is no big deal. Everyone is doing it. We know you're gonna do it. Or your friends are gonna do it. Keep it in your wallet so you're always ready just in case you or a friend decides to have spontaneous sex with that person you just met at a party!" 

Sex. Is. A. Big. Deal. 

At least at my college, where we were handed them and told to keep them with us, it wasn’t “we know you’re going to do it”. It was presented as something to have on hand if needed, like carrying change for a pay phone and the number for campus safety so that there was no reason to ever drive drunk or get into a car with someone who was. That you provided them to other people as readily as you’d offer someone a ride home if they had been drinking and you hadn’t. It wasn’t assumed everyone would drink or have sex. It was that everyone had a responsibity to help keep each other safe. 

 

 

[73349]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

To the bolded: So? There are three grades in our high school filled with kids who are almost never over 18 (unless they have special educational needs or something). So at least 3/4 of the student body of the high schools here are minors. If we were saying showing proof of age meant kids >18 could get condoms, you might have a point. But you don’t say since some kids are over 18, it should be available to all. That’s nonsense. 

Back when the legal drinking age was 18, many high school seniors could legally drink alcohol; doesn’t mean high school dances served alcohol. 

Condoms decrease health risks; alcohol increases them. Likely that's why there's no legal restriction on age for buying condoms.

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

Condoms are available without a stigma and without parental cooperation. It's called a store. Or if that's uncomfortable I happen to know plenty of gas stations that stock them in vending machines in the bathroom in all sorts of colors and flavors. 

I really don't understand this idea that teenagers are mature enough to have sex but not mature enough to be responsible for paying for their own supplies.

I think part of the issue though is that teens often are NOT mature enough to make responsible decisions about sex, isn't it?  I'm firmly in the camp that believes that sex is a really lovely thing to be shared among two partners who are committed to each other for life.  But I think even people who believe that -- maybe especially teens who are not yet mature enough to understand the consequences -- make mistakes, or choose differently in the moment.    And a lot of people grow up not believing that at all, or come from homes that don't bother to teach them anything and the teens are on their own figuring this all out.  So what do you do about those kids that don't get any guidance from home at all?  I do think it's good and smart for a school to have a comprehensive sex ed program that discusses all of this, AND that encourages the option of abstinence, and reasons for it.  But I really don't see a problem with having free condoms available either.  I don't think it's going to cause a teen to change their mind about having sex one way or the other, but it might cause a handful of teens to do it more safely, preventing unwanted pregnancies and/or STD's.  And let's face it, it doesn't make sense to me that some people who are adamant against abortions often don't support birth control for teens either, one of the main things that would help prevent the need for an abortion.  Sure -- abstinence is the best answer, but isn't safe birth control the next best thing?  I'm not at all giddy about abortions, don't get me wrong.  I think they need to be well thought through and rare (as someone else put it).  But come on then, we need a back-up option.  This isn't a perfect world we live in, and it's a world where a lot of teens are going to make dumb decisions (which are not always their fault) that could easily affect their lives (and a baby's life) for the long term.

So even though at first I didn't like the idea of a school having free condoms available, the more I think about it, the more I don't have a problem with it.

[Joker]

I don't have a problem with it but I would be surprised if there were that many students who would actually face down a school nurse in person for condoms. 

Dh and I both grew up in families that just did not talk about this stuff at all other than you do not do it till your married. It was less than helpful. We have really gone out of our comfort zones with our own kids. I also didn't even know what dental dams were but made myself learn and we were able to talk with our kids about it all. Discussing being safe doesn't mean we don't also discuss being smart about the "when/how old" part of it all. They know it's not something to take lightly. I honestly think my dc's age groups (17-19 year olds) take it much more seriously than my own generation did. 

[J-rap]

Also, I don't understand how condoms are being equated with alcohol or even Tylenol.  You ingest Tylenol and alcohol.  Both can have very serious consequences if used wrong.  Condoms are meant to take away the serious consequences and you don't ingest them.

[Katy]

6 hours ago, Quill said:

<snip>

I still see it as inconsistent, because if the risk inherant in a school nurse giving a student Tylanol is some potential allergy or misdose, how is there not a risk in giving prophelactics, which is tacitly condoning sex, which can absolutely lead to pregnancy or STDs either with a c@ndom, or in another instance wherein the teens were fresh out of their school supplies? 

<snip>

 

I think there is an inconsistency in this reasoning.  It's definitely possible to say, "What you do with your body is your decision. I hope you will wait. But if you decide NOT to wait, you MUST be responsible about it because it isn't just your life you're messing up.  It's the life of a baby who deserves two parents who love each other AND the baby." IE: If you don't wait, don't be an idiot.

It may be anecdotal, but IME the more anti- sex ed a church is, the higher the percentage of teen pregnancy. Because they are sure they are absolutely NOT going to plan on having sex, because backsliding means they're going to hell, and being responsible means they are planning on sinning. But "accidentally giving into temptation" is totally human. So girl after girl after girl gets pregnant. IME explaining how important it is to make responsible decisions helps a ton.  And that coupled with free condoms might help a great deal too.

5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Really, it was bad. It is, literally, my only major life regret.

 

I had one of those too.

1 hour ago, Quill said:

*shrug* My family was dirt poor and my parents were major Bible-thumpers. But I worked and so did my bf. We always had the necessary supplies. 

I would seriously question the wisdom of giving such piss-poor, no-resources, unsupportive-family teens free condoms, thinking that solves some problem. Where is this magical society where a teen in such a situation as that is only going to have sex when armed with his school-issued raincoat? When happens on summer break, holidays, weekends? Do these kids suddenly become chaste? Do they go get a job so they can afford protection? 

I just don’t get why we are treating these young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. It seems like more of the Helpless generation messaging. 

Just FTR, I am not a big proponent of virginal wedding days or wait till marriage messaging. If someone chooses that, fine, but I’m just filling in my perspective; I am not saying free condoms are bad because then teens will have sex. That isn’t my issue at all. 

 

So... were you not a believer at the time or did you just ignore the biblical rules regarding sex? Because bible-thumper kids rarely make such responsible decisions IME.

I'm not a proponent of virginal wedding nights either, I'm just surprised.

[Katy]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok so I googled dental dams and it’s way totally worse than I thought!   When I saw the term all I could imagine was those horrible rubber things the dentist puts in your mouth to do a root canal.  And I thought oh no, it HAS to be something different than that.  But it’s NOT!   I would completely have flash backs of root canals if anyone ever pulled out something like that lol.  I can only imagine that those things help prevent STDs because once it’s pulled out the other person takes off lol.  

I don’t mean to make light of what might actually be beneficial.   I just can’t imagine being comfortable making that sort of thing part of my sexual experience.  

 

What?  They don't hold your mouth open, they just prevent getting throat cancer from oral sex.

[SKL]

28 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Also, I don't understand how condoms are being equated with alcohol or even Tylenol.  You ingest Tylenol and alcohol.  Both can have very serious consequences if used wrong.  Condoms are meant to take away the serious consequences and you don't ingest them.

It's that they assume a student is not responsible enough to know when to take a Tylenol but somehow they are smart enough to know what to do with a condom.  Also, it's refusing parents the right to cede responsibility on the former but forcing them to cede it on the latter.  I hope most of us would agree that having sex is a bigger deal than taking an otc pill.

I would be concerned that handing out condoms would give students the idea that a condom will protect them, though we know that many young people don't know how to use them right and the fail rate is not especially low.  But, as a parent, I hope I will drum that information into my kids' heads (I have already started telling my 12yos that they should always use multiple bc methods if and when they want to have sex without getting pregnant).

I am also concerned about the media influencing kids to think teen sex is and should be the norm.  That isn't exactly anything new, but again, I have already started the parental campaign against those attitudes. 

I hope that my kids' choices don't come down to what's available in the nurse's office at school.  But, who am I kidding - I would prefer that over a teen pregnancy.

Edited January 22, 2019 by SKL

[MercyA]

6 hours ago, EmseB said:

Do people really know teens that wouldn't use condoms but for going to ask an adult at school for them? Realistically? I mean, by all means, stock the schools up with condoms, make them available, pass them out to everyone in health class...I'm not opposed in principle (mostly for the reason that I don't ever expect public schools to line up with my values about sex so I'm kinda past the point of carrying what they do in that regard), but given limited resources for actually educating kids I would guess it to be not a very good use of money to have them in some nurses office that kids have to go and ask for them in school.

I have to admit this is where I'm at on this, too. Maybe I'm just old and tired, but I don't have it in me to get worked up about most things* that go on in public schools. I expect that public school activities will reflect the values of society at large, and no surprise, they do.

I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but onelittlemonkey asked if those who were opposed to abortion and welfare were also opposed to condom distribution. I think onelittlemonkey is awesome, so for her sake I'll try to articulate my not-yet-fully-formed opinion on it. I oppose abortion in every circumstance; if the mother's life is at risk, I believe every effort should be made to save both lives, if possible. I support welfare because poor people need help and Scripture commands us to help them, the end. Condoms at school: not something I would protest, but neither are they something I would personally provide for unmarried couples. I do understand why others have a different position, but my conscience won't allow me to support or participate in something I believe to be sin. 

Looking at it using a different example: I won't vote for someone I know to be evil even if they--for example--pledge to nominate pro-life Supreme Court nominees. I don't think that I, as a Christian, should ever actively and personally support sin in the hopes that good may result from it. So I wouldn't say to someone, "Here, let me give you a condom in case you want to sin." But I am going to expect the public school to have the same position? Of course not.

I don't expect many to agree with me on this, and that's okay. 😉 

(*I draw the line at those who teach kids to disrespect life and harm living creatures, like that *&#$%& ag teacher who tortured raccoons in class. 😠)  

Edited January 22, 2019 by MercyA

[Frances]

22 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I have to admit this is where I'm at on this, too. Maybe I'm just old and tired, but I don't have it in me to get worked up about most things* that go on in public schools. I expect that public school activities will reflect the values of society at large, and no surprise, they do.

I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but onelittlemonkey asked if those who were opposed to abortion and welfare were also opposed to condom distribution. I think onelittlemonkey is awesome, so for her sake I'll try to articulate my not-yet-fully-formed opinion on it. I oppose abortion in every circumstance; if the mother's life is at risk, I believe every effort should be made to save both lives, if possible. I support welfare because poor people need help and Scripture commands us to help them, the end. Condoms at school: not something I would protest, but neither are they something I would personally provide for unmarried couples. I do understand why others have a different position, but my conscience won't allow me to support or participate in something I believe to be sin. 

Looking at it using a different example: I won't vote for someone I know to be evil even if they--for example--pledge to nominate pro-life Supreme Court nominees. I don't think that I, as a Christian, should ever actively and personally support sin in the hopes that good may result from it. So I wouldn't say to someone, "Here, let me give you a condom in case you want to sin." But I am going to expect the public school to have the same position? Of course not.

I don't expect many to agree with me on this, and that's okay. 😉 

(*I draw the line at those who teach kids to disrespect life and harm living creatures, like that *&#$%& ag teacher who tortured raccoons in class. 😠)  

For me, it comes down to what is the greater wrong. While I don’t hold the religious view that sex before marriage is a sin, I do think it is best for people to wait until they are mature, self-supporting, committed, and ready to have children because nothing except abstinence is 100%. But I believe bringing an innocent child into this world before you are ready to be a parent is far more wrong than having protected sex before you are ready to parent. The latter is only affecting the two people doing it, the former affects a completely innocent person for the rest of their life.   

And just to be clear, I’m not implying that all unplanned pregnancies between unmarried people result in bad parenting and bad outcomes. But in my volunteer work and extended family, I’ve certainly seen enough suffering to want to help to avoid it if at all possible.

[Frances]

17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Your first paragraph....totally agree.

Your second, I don’t know about access giving false ideas of protection, but you mention failure rates. As I understand it, reported failure rates presume proper useage.  And I don’t know about anyone else, but one reason I always hated the things was the “mistake” rate...stupid things break, expire, come off etc.

Theid paragraph...let’s get a bit controversial here.  Teen sex IS the norm.  It always has been.  In many cultures puberty means adulthood.  My grandmother was 18 when she got married and had her first child before she was 20.  My great grandmother was married at 17...because she was pregnant.   They stayed together till great grandpa passed at the age of 77 and they had a total of 9 kids.  My mom and her siblings all got married at age 20 or earlier.    

I got pregnant at 17.  I had my youngest kid just before I tuned 35.  My experience has led me to believe that the human body is SUPPOSED to give birth at those younger ages. But socially, intellectually, we aren’t supposed to be there.  I think there is an interesting conflict between biology and society.  And biologically, I don’t thing later teen pregnancy is all that weird.  From our current society standpoint it’s undesirable and hard.  But it’s still certainly something that has been going on for generations and isn’t abnormal 

I think teen parenthood is harder now than in previous generations because it is much more difficult for a young couple with limited education to get the type of jobs that can support a family. And the financial stress then placed on the couple makes it more likely the marriage will fail.

[lulalu]

I don't think it falls to the responsibility of the schools. 

Other places provide these for free. 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

What?  They don't hold your mouth open, they just prevent getting throat cancer from oral sex.

 

Just going to put in a plug for the HPV vax here for this as well. 

[Terabith]

I am in favor.  I understand why people might not be, but I would rather err on the side of easy access.  

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I have to admit this is where I'm at on this, too. Maybe I'm just old and tired, but I don't have it in me to get worked up about most things* that go on in public schools. I expect that public school activities will reflect the values of society at large, and no surprise, they do.

I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but onelittlemonkey asked if those who were opposed to abortion and welfare were also opposed to condom distribution. I think onelittlemonkey is awesome, so for her sake I'll try to articulate my not-yet-fully-formed opinion on it. I oppose abortion in every circumstance; if the mother's life is at risk, I believe every effort should be made to save both lives, if possible. I support welfare because poor people need help and Scripture commands us to help them, the end. Condoms at school: not something I would protest, but neither are they something I would personally provide for unmarried couples. I do understand why others have a different position, but my conscience won't allow me to support or participate in something I believe to be sin. 

Looking at it using a different example: I won't vote for someone I know to be evil even if they--for example--pledge to nominate pro-life Supreme Court nominees. I don't think that I, as a Christian, should ever actively and personally support sin in the hopes that good may result from it. So I wouldn't say to someone, "Here, let me give you a condom in case you want to sin." But I am going to expect the public school to have the same position? Of course not.

I don't expect many to agree with me on this, and that's okay. 😉 

(*I draw the line at those who teach kids to disrespect life and harm living creatures, like that *&#$%& ag teacher who tortured raccoons in class. 😠)  

I get what you're saying, totally!  I guess as my faith has evolved over the years -- and I'm a Christian too -- I find there are a lot of situations where there just is no good answer.  I mean there IS, ideally, but the world is what it is.  In those situations, it just seems that love has to come first.  What act can I do that shows the greatest amount of love in that particular situation?  That's what it boils down for to me, more and more, in these very difficult circumstances.  So in the situation of offering a condom to a young person who's going to have sex anyway, or not offering it because it's against my personal beliefs...  Well, it just seems like that first option is the more loving one, even though in my mind, it's far from perfect.  

[SKL]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

.

Theid paragraph...let’s get a bit controversial here.  Teen sex IS the norm.  It always has been.  In many cultures puberty means adulthood.  My grandmother was 18 when she got married and had her first child before she was 20.  My great grandmother was married at 17...because she was pregnant.   They stayed together till great grandpa passed at the age of 77 and they had a total of 9 kids.  My mom and her siblings all got married at age 20 or earlier.    

I got pregnant at 17.  I had my youngest kid just before I tuned 35.  My experience has led me to believe that the human body is SUPPOSED to give birth at those younger ages. But socially, intellectually, we aren’t supposed to be there.  I think there is an interesting conflict between biology and society.  And biologically, I don’t thing later teen pregnancy is all that weird.  From our current society standpoint it’s undesirable and hard.  But it’s still certainly something that has been going on for generations and isn’t abnormal 

Well since we're talking about high school, I really meant high school age.  My kids will turn 17 in 12th grade, so I'm not talking about anything over 17.  And yes, historically 17 wasn't necessarily young to be pregnant, but now it is desireable for girls to finish enough education to support themselves prior to procreating. 

And when I talk about teen sex being the norm in the media, I'm talking about kids who are nowhere near ready to raise children, and aren't mature enough to take on an intimate relationship.  I'm talking about the media implying that sexual experimentation as young as puberty is healthy, normal, desireable, and generally without negative consequences.  Even historically, the ideal was never to have casual sex outside of wedlock.  But popular movies in the decades since the "sexual revolution" have made it seem almost universal.

[SKL]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Having done it in the recent generations , I totally agree. All I mean is that I think those difficulties are socially imposed vs biologically.   Trying to go to college while dealing with babies is ROUGH, I have plenty of experience with that.  

Being a teen mom was never exactly easy.  Teen moms, married or not, had a higher death rate in childbirth, and in most families the young mom had to do a heck of a lot of work both in the home and out of it.  So part of why we want kids to delay is that their life can be a bit better if they do.  The ability to make one's own money also opens a lot more choices.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Well since we're talking about high school, I really meant high school age.  My kids will turn 17 in 12th grade, so I'm not talking about anything over 17.  And yes, historically 17 wasn't necessarily young to be pregnant, but now it is desireable for girls to finish enough education to support themselves prior to procreating. 

And when I talk about teen sex being the norm in the media, I'm talking about kids who are nowhere near ready to raise children, and aren't mature enough to take on an intimate relationship.  I'm talking about the media implying that sexual experimentation as young as puberty is healthy, normal, desireable, and generally without negative consequences.  Even historically, the ideal was never to have casual sex outside of wedlock.  But popular movies in the decades since the "sexual revolution" have made it seem almost universal.

 

How is it that teen sex has apparently become so pervasive and normalized in the media, something that supposedly causes kids to throw religion and all good sense out the window and frolic in iniquity, when the rates of teen pregnancy and childbirth peaked (in my lifetime) 30 years ago and are lower now than they were in 1972, before I was even a twinkle in my parents’ eyes? I look at the Pew data, evennthe CDC data, and it doesn’t reveal what people keep saying. Heck, even going back through the Masters and Johnson research, not talking about or seeing sex on TV (two twin beds? Really?) didn’t mean sex wasn’t happening.  Is it really better to marry off teens rather than prepare them to navigate the same sorts of sexual issues that their parents and grandparents and great grandparents had at the exact same ages?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/29/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/%3famp=1

Edited January 22, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I think there is an inconsistency in this reasoning.  It's definitely possible to say, "What you do with your body is your decision. I hope you will wait. But if you decide NOT to wait, you MUST be responsible about it because it isn't just your life you're messing up.  It's the life of a baby who deserves two parents who love each other AND the baby." IE: If you don't wait, don't be an idiot.

It may be anecdotal, but IME the more anti- sex ed a church is, the higher the percentage of teen pregnancy. Because they are sure they are absolutely NOT going to plan on having sex, because backsliding means they're going to hell, and being responsible means they are planning on sinning. But "accidentally giving into temptation" is totally human. So girl after girl after girl gets pregnant. IME explaining how important it is to make responsible decisions helps a ton.  And that coupled with free condoms might help a great deal too.

 

I had one of those too.

 

So... were you not a believer at the time or did you just ignore the biblical rules regarding sex? Because bible-thumper kids rarely make such responsible decisions IME.

I'm not a proponent of virginal wedding nights either, I'm just surprised.

Real-life object lesson: my sister had a baby at 14. I was a believer at the time, but I’m also a very practical person. I rationalized that in Biblical times, people married when they were 13-15, which was clearly no longer a social norm. I knew that I was absolutely NOT getting married and/or having babies at any age ending in “teen” and it was no longer socially relevant to be a virgin until mid-twenties when marriage and babies made sense. So yes, for all intents and purposes, I ignored that biblical edict. 

[MercyA]

@Frances, thanks for your thoughts. I understand your perspective.

@J-rap, I always appreciate hearing from you. I'm getting ready to leave for co-op, but just quickly: 1. I believe God always requires me to love and never wills me to sin; 2. God's definition of love as revealed in Scripture and the world's definition of love are not always the same thing; and 3. where the Scripture is not explicit, some of these things come down to matters of conscience. Have to run, peace out! :) 

[Bluegoat]

11 hours ago, Quill said:

*shrug* My family was dirt poor and my parents were major Bible-thumpers. But I worked and so did my bf. We always had the necessary supplies. 

I would seriously question the wisdom of giving such piss-poor, no-resources, unsupportive-family teens free condoms, thinking that solves some problem. Where is this magical society where a teen in such a situation as that is only going to have sex when armed with his school-issued raincoat? When happens on summer break, holidays, weekends? Do these kids suddenly become chaste? Do they go get a job so they can afford protection? 

I just don’t get why we are treating these young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. It seems like more of the Helpless generation messaging. 

Just FTR, I am not a big proponent of virginal wedding days or wait till marriage messaging. If someone chooses that, fine, but I’m just filling in my perspective; I am not saying free condoms are bad because then teens will have sex. That isn’t my issue at all. 

 

I think this gets into some much bigger picture issues about the teen years, and procreation and sex in our society as it applies to everyone.

I generally think we are a little inconsistent about how we think about teenagers - in general I think we really infantilise them, largely by making it difficult for them to be significantly involved in caring for themselves or contributing to the needs of the community.  we've extended childhood.

In reality I think teens in high school are at the stage of life where it's actually quite natural for them to be working members of society with real responsibilities, and not only be sexually active but having children - all things which are big factors in attaining maturity - by making these impossible or undesirable as a society I tend to think we've made it even more difficult for kids to mature.

So while we have created this rather unfortunate situation for teens, I don't think that changes their basic nature - not only will they have sex, they are really mature enough to have it, and to be parents.  I don't really think a lot of the idea that people have to be "ready" in some psychological sense to have kids.  Some people have serious problems that make it a bad idea, like addiction.  Some people are irresponsible jerks and may always be.  But this idea of being "ready" is looking for something that doesn't really exist, like being ready to get old, or being ready to lose your fertility as you age.

I think teens are capable of handling birth control.  I don't really care that they are minors.  I actually would like it if people didn't have sex, adults or teens, unless they were in a position to have kids, and had the maturity and self-control to handle that - the fact is that most adults struggle with this too though, and our society does zero to encourage that, or even tell people that self-control and abstinence are good things.  I don't really see us getting there any time soon, our economic model is to o invested in undermining all self-control.

It's not that I don't think parents have a role, really - I do, in a society which was set up with sensible structures for childbearing and rearing, I'd expect parents/grandparents to have significant roles - there is a good reason parents have traditionally had input into the spousal choices of the young.  But given we've created a situation where parents are rarely going to have that and in fact really don't want their children to have sex or have kids before they are well into adulthood, we've created a real bind for the teenagers.  

It is also IMO very difficult to tease out messages in society that sex is no big deal, and they are all over the place, from easily accessible birth control.  They become intertwined in a number of ways.  Watching a few episodes of Friends or Big Bang theory is kind of cingeworthy in that respect.  Which is too bad, but not something easily solvable.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think this gets into some much bigger picture issues about the teen years, and procreation and sex in our society as it applies to everyone.

I generally think we are a little inconsistent about how we think about teenagers - in general I think we really infantilise them, largely by making it difficult for them to be significantly involved in caring for themselves or contributing to the needs of the community.  we've extended childhood.

In reality I think teens in high school are at the stage of life where it's actually quite natural for them to be working members of society with real responsibilities, and not only be sexually active but having children - all things which are big factors in attaining maturity - by making these impossible or undesirable as a society I tend to think we've made it even more difficult for kids to mature.

So while we have created this rather unfortunate situation for teens, I don't think that changes their basic nature - not only will they have sex, they are really mature enough to have it, and to be parents.  I don't really think a lot of the idea that people have to be "ready" in some psychological sense to have kids.  Some people have serious problems that make it a bad idea, like addiction.  Some people are irresponsible jerks and may always be.  But this idea of being "ready" is looking for something that doesn't really exist, like being ready to get old, or being ready to lose your fertility as you age.

I think teens are capable of handling birth control.  I don't really care that they are minors.  I actually would like it if people didn't have sex, adults or teens, unless they were in a position to have kids, and had the maturity and self-control to handle that - the fact is that most adults struggle with this too though, and our society does zero to encourage that, or even tell people that self-control and abstinence are good things.  I don't really see us getting there any time soon, our economic model is to o invested in undermining all self-control.

It's not that I don't think parents have a role, really - I do, in a society which was set up with sensible structures for childbearing and rearing, I'd expect parents/grandparents to have significant roles - there is a good reason parents have traditionally had input into the spousal choices of the young.  But given we've created a situation where parents are rarely going to have that and in fact really don't want their children to have sex or have kids before they are well into adulthood, we've created a real bind for the teenagers.  

It is also IMO very difficult to tease out messages in society that sex is no big deal, and they are all over the place, from easily accessible birth control.  They become intertwined in a number of ways.  Watching a few episodes of Friends or Big Bang theory is kind of cingeworthy in that respect.  Which is too bad, but not something easily solvable.

Heading to doctors in a few minutes, but just saying: I 100% agree with ALL of this. I think there is much to be said about how modern society infanta.izes children and delays maturity. 

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, Quill said:

*shrug* My family was dirt poor and my parents were major Bible-thumpers. But I worked and so did my bf. We always had the necessary supplies. 

I would seriously question the wisdom of giving such piss-poor, no-resources, unsupportive-family teens free condoms, thinking that solves some problem. Where is this magical society where a teen in such a situation as that is only going to have sex when armed with his school-issued raincoat? When happens on summer break, holidays, weekends? Do these kids suddenly become chaste? Do they go get a job so they can afford protection? 

I just don’t get why we are treating these young people like they have no need whatsoever to assume responsibility for securing their own protection. It seems like more of the Helpless generation messaging. 

Just FTR, I am not a big proponent of virginal wedding days or wait till marriage messaging. If someone chooses that, fine, but I’m just filling in my perspective; I am not saying free condoms are bad because then teens will have sex. That isn’t my issue at all. 

I did live in a small town with one drug store, one convenience store, and no gas station mini marts, in a state where you have to be 17 for a driver’s license. Buying condoms definitely would have carried a big risk of getting found out for anyone under 17 or without a vehicle.

I do consider myself fortunate that my bf had much older friends who looked out for him and made sure that (typical) teen fears didn’t screw up his whole life.  If he hadn’t, I can’t say with any certainty what might have happened before I was allowed to drive my mom’s car out of town.

I don’t think it’s fair to call a lack of access or barriers to access failure to assume responsibility. I do think that having easy access to begin with could lead to better creative thinking or reaching out to trustworthy people for some assistance. If they start out taking risks, given the teenage brain, I’d think they’d acclimate to the risk level for however many months they manage to get away with it, and feel less incentivized to do something about it.

[SKL]

5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

How is it that teen sex has apparently become so pervasive and normalized in the media, something that supposedly causes kids to throw religion and all good sense out the window and frolic in iniquity, when the rates of teen pregnancy and childbirth peaked (in my lifetime) 30 years ago and are lower now than they were in 1972, before I was even a twinkle in my parents’ eyes? I look at the Pew data, evennthe CDC data, and it doesn’t reveal what people keep saying. Heck, even going back through the Masters and Johnson research, not talking about or seeing sex on TV (two twin beds? Really?) didn’t mean sex wasn’t happening.  Is it really better to marry off teens rather than prepare them to navigate the same sorts of sexual issues that their parents and grandparents and great grandparents had at the exact same ages?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/29/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/%3famp=1

The teen pregnancy rate has fallen because it used to be normal for girls/women to marry and start families during their teen years.  Now it isn't, nor do I particularly want that for my kids.  (Not sure why you ask me if it's really better to marry off teens.  I don't think I said anything like that.)

[SKL]

Sounds like some are suggesting maybe we go back to the ideal of females starting families as teens, partly to help "grow them up."

I suggest that we have substituted teen motherhood with other responsibilities, mainly preparing for and starting a career / activity that helps the community.

I do think it is regrettable that we don't have as many opportunities for young people to "practice" parenting - when I was a teen, I spent many hours on a daily basis taking care of my younger siblings and babysitting other kids.  I hope my kids will find opportunities to help out with kids before they have their own.

[Frances]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

Well since we're talking about high school, I really meant high school age.  My kids will turn 17 in 12th grade, so I'm not talking about anything over 17.  And yes, historically 17 wasn't necessarily young to be pregnant, but now it is desireable for girls to finish enough education to support themselves prior to procreating. 

And when I talk about teen sex being the norm in the media, I'm talking about kids who are nowhere near ready to raise children, and aren't mature enough to take on an intimate relationship.  I'm talking about the media implying that sexual experimentation as young as puberty is healthy, normal, desireable, and generally without negative consequences.  Even historically, the ideal was never to have casual sex outside of wedlock.  But popular movies in the decades since the "sexual revolution" have made it seem almost universal.

Some research suggests that certain TV shows may have actually contributed to the decrease in teen pregnancy rates:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/13/health/16-pregnant-teens-childbirth/index.html

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

Some research suggests that certain TV shows may have actually contributed to the decrease in teen pregnancy rates:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/13/health/16-pregnant-teens-childbirth/index.html

They supposedly correlated with fewer teen births.  The article indicated this was related to higher interest in both abortion and birth control.  The quotes and anecdotes cited imply a very casual attitude toward teen sex among those watching the show.

Also this study was focused on the type of person who would watch that kind of show in the first place - many would not.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Sounds like some are suggesting maybe we go back to the ideal of females starting families as teens, partly to help "grow them up."

I suggest that we have substituted teen motherhood with other responsibilities, mainly preparing for and starting a career / activity that helps the community.

I do think it is regrettable that we don't have as many opportunities for young people to "practice" parenting - when I was a teen, I spent many hours on a daily basis taking care of my younger siblings and babysitting other kids.  I hope my kids will find opportunities to help out with kids before they have their own.

 

No, this absolutely wasn’t what I was saying. I do not think early marriage is preferable to delayed parenthood. I’m just not seeing the connection between media ‘normalizing teen sex’ and higher pregnancy rates. It simply doesn’t exist. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

They supposedly correlated with fewer teen births.  The article indicated this was related to higher interest in both abortion and birth control.  The quotes and anecdotes cited imply a very casual attitude toward teen sex among those watching the show.

Also this study was focused on the type of person who would watch that kind of show in the first place - many would not.

 The pew data show both decreasing pregnancy and abortion rates. Both have declined, in tandem. There’s no evidence of media causing a significant increase in teen sex.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Terabith]

I have a lot of thoughts about this topic, and I want to come back to it when my brain is firing on all cylinders and I can give the responses they deserve.  

[Andromeda]

When I was in high school a million years ago, our school nurse's office had a supply of free condoms available. Also, everyone had to attend a demonstration for how to use one, although boys and girls were separated for the duration (15 minutes maybe?). I'm pretty sure there was a parental consent form involved for the demonstration. 

I don't know if this made any difference because I didn't know anyone who took advantage of the offer, but I imagine that the kids who did weren't vocal about it.

I am very much in the wait until you get married camp, but if kids are active, I believe that they should be given accurate information and ways to protect themselves.

[MistyMountain]

The thing that reduces abortions the most is having good access to birth control that is not stigmatized. I do think this will reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions because it destigmatizes it and makes it easy to get. In countries where there is no stigma on birth control the abortion rate is much lower. It does work.

I do hope the schools also have comprehensive sex education too and not just focused on sex itself and birth control methods but on healthy relationships, consent and how after having sex that it can be harder to leave someone and see red flags because of hormones. It would include a home link to help parents have an open dialogue with their kids and let them know their values about it. I do think that sex is better in a healthy long term relationship and that many teens make bad decisions about sex and relationships. Having condoms easily available will not stop teens from having sex but it will make it safer.

[SeaConquest]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

How is it that teen sex has apparently become so pervasive and normalized in the media, something that supposedly causes kids to throw religion and all good sense out the window and frolic in iniquity, when the rates of teen pregnancy and childbirth peaked (in my lifetime) 30 years ago and are lower now than they were in 1972, before I was even a twinkle in my parents’ eyes? I look at the Pew data, evennthe CDC data, and it doesn’t reveal what people keep saying. Heck, even going back through the Masters and Johnson research, not talking about or seeing sex on TV (two twin beds? Really?) didn’t mean sex wasn’t happening.  Is it really better to marry off teens rather than prepare them to navigate the same sorts of sexual issues that their parents and grandparents and great grandparents had at the exact same ages?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/29/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/%3famp=1

 

Exactly. Young people today are having less sex, not more. My kids will probably be virgins until they are 30. If they can look up from their screens for that long. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

Edited January 22, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Sounds like some are suggesting maybe we go back to the ideal of females starting families as teens, partly to help "grow them up."

I suggest that we have substituted teen motherhood with other responsibilities, mainly preparing for and starting a career / activity that helps the community.

I do think it is regrettable that we don't have as many opportunities for young people to "practice" parenting - when I was a teen, I spent many hours on a daily basis taking care of my younger siblings and babysitting other kids.  I hope my kids will find opportunities to help out with kids before they have their own.

 

Meh, I changed my first diaper when I brought my son home from the hospital at age 34. He survived. Barely. 😉 I spent my youth building a resume for college. It's nice to have both skills; one isn't inherently better than the other. But, the college admissions game has changed for a lot of kids, making it much more difficult to have the kind of jobs that a lot of us had as kids (babysitting, lifeguarding, mowing lawns, retail vs. internships, research, volunteerism, etc).

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

No, this absolutely wasn’t what I was saying. I do not think early marriage is preferable to delayed parenthood. I’m just not seeing the connection between media ‘normalizing teen sex’ and higher pregnancy rates. It simply doesn’t exist. 

I don't think I said it did ... I can dislike both teen pregnancy and a casual attitude toward sex without proving there is causation between them.  My point was that I have to teach my kids at home (a) our family values and (b) practical advice re delaying fertility.  It is somewhat of an uphill battle due to the way sex is portrayed in the media and potentially at school.