Public School vs. Private School, Plus some Woo-Woo, Plus what ds wants

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

It IS an elitist attitude! That is exactly why it distresses me! 

This is exactly why this whole decision is giving me an ulcer. Because I am NOT the mom who pulls strings at the school to make her kids look good on a resume; I am NOT the mom who thinks my kid must go to ivy or top tier or if they don’t list 27 extracurriculars and have a 4.5 GPA their lives are ruined. I made the wacky decision this year to have DS do a Stewardship program for math instead of Alg I because I think financial literacy is a critically important subject and schools don’t/can’t accommodate teaching that. But now I am hearing that I might have really messed up by doing this; if he goes to the private, they do not care, they will work with me, presumably, just as they did for my previous two kids. But the public school may not. They have a couple thousand kids there. They probably don’t have the best hostory in dealing with former hs parents who come in and expect to have their wishes considered - damn headstrong different-drum-marchers! 

My issue is at I do not want to put him in the “wrong” fit academically because the non-Honors class is full of the troubled kids. But if my friend is right about this, I also do not want him in concentrated interaction with the troubled kids.  But I also don’t want to go through essay anguish every week because honors workis too hard. 

 

There is nothing wrong with a child being in some (but not all) honors classes or some (but not all) regular academic ones. It’s not a popular thing to do, and DDs counselor might have thought it strange, but DD says, finally, she is understanding the ‘story’ of history vs facts and that’s ultimately what matters. She also feels heard in that I didn’t put her in an honors version of a class that she has never really enjoyed. Going forward, she’s choosing her HS classes this month, she was a lot more amenable to my suggestions and input too.

I’d take what you hear with a grain of salt. There’s a certain class of parent (I do not entirely exclude myself) who is about what looks good vs what actually works. Just know that there are a lot of really engaging classroom experiences that happen in non-honors simply because the staff is actually trying to keep the kids engaged vs assuming they’ll learn regardless (because their parents will fill in gaps and/or their understanding is assumed). If possible, go to the school. See if you can sit in on Algebra classes. Discuss your concerns with the counselors. See what they say and what you observe. Then make the call.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

There is nothing wrong with a child being in some (but not all) honors classes or some (but not all) regular academic ones. It’s not a popular thing to do, and DDs counselor might have thought it strange, but DD says, finally, she is finally understanding the ‘story’ of history vs facts and that’s ultimately what matters. She also feels heard in that I didn’t put her in an honors version of a class that she has never really enjoyed. Going forward, she’s choosing her HS classes this month, she was a lot more amenable to my suggestions and input.

I don’t know how it works at the public school because I have never darkened the door there except to vote in an election. But I do know the school uses “tracks.” So if you’re in these classes, you are college-prep track, and if you’re in those, you are on a non-college track. Obviously anyone can go to college or not go to college when high school is over - and I myself was not tracked for college in high school, but I still chose as an adult to go - but I do think it is easier to head to college when your peers have been talking about and preparing for it all along. 

I think the bottom line is that it comes down to control. Homeschooling works really well for those of us who like a high degree of control in determining what our kids need. It’s half the reason I wanted to hs in the first place. Or more than half! Next best is private school because, obviously, if I’m paying thousands of dollars to send a kid there, I feel I have a right to argue for whatever my kid needs. But public offers the least control: the school just needs to offer classes. It does not need to determine where a kid best belongs and may or may not care. My fear is they will only care a tiny bit if I shelve the introvert and channel a bitchy extrovert and bug them until I am satisfied with the placement. 

[Sneezyone]

20 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t know how it works at the public school because I have never darkened the door there except to vote in an election. But I do know the school uses “tracks.” So if you’re in these classes, you are college-prep track, and if you’re in those, you are on a non-college track. Obviously anyone can go to college or not go to college when high school is over - and I myself was not tracked for college in high school, but I still chose as an adult to go - but I do think it is easier to head to college when your peers have been talking about and preparing for it all along. 

I think the bottom line is that it comes down to control. Homeschooling works really well for those of us who like a high degree of control in determining what our kids need. It’s half the reason I wanted to hs in the first place. Or more than half! Next best is private school because, obviously, if I’m paying thousands of dollars to send a kid there, I feel I have a right to argue for whatever my kid needs. But public offers the least control: the school just needs to offer classes. It does not need to determine where a kid best belongs and may or may not care. My fear is they will only care a tiny bit if I shelve the introvert and channel a bitchy extrovert and bug them until I am satisfied with the placement. 

 

My DDs middle school operates similarly with English and history being linked by level and math and science being linked by level but parents can and are encouraged to change the levels based on teacher recommendation and their own child’s interests/aptitude. When I went to enroll DD two weeks ago, she wasn’t sure she could unlink English and History but said she’d try. When I got DDs schuedule, it was as I’d asked. In HS, if DD changes her mind, they are totally open to kids moving back up (or down as the case my be). I received zero pushback on this from my local public school and dont feel the least bit disempowered. Her counselor was super easy to work with and I was prepared to have to argue. There was no need. Her default was, “so you want her in all honors classes, right?” I realize all schools aren’t the same but you will certainly not know unless you investigate.

As for the grad paths/tracks, in our area, the path to standard or advanced diplomas is sketched out by the family. On DDs HS course sheet, there’s a box where you can tell the counselor which path you’d like your child to be on but all the info is online and readily available. You can print the four year planner and go to town with the school’s course catalog. 

I’ve had numerous conversations with DD about her *personal* plan and the fact that it may not match anyone else’s and that’s just fine. She’s not in a competition with anyone, despite what her honors classmates would have her believe. If she’s learning and getting good grades and keeping up with her plan, that’s all we ask.

That said, this is a school with a relatively affluent student population. 90%+ will graduate, more than half will take and pass an AP exam, and most of those will attend college. The highest 15% will leave high school with a 2-year degree and an advanced diploma. The middle 50% will earn an advanced diploma with some college credits. The lowest 35% will earn the standard diploma with no AP or DE.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Sneezyone

[KathyBC]

If you can, I think it is a big positive for the school authority to hold similar values to the parent's.
Peers matter. Even if they are privately breaking those standards, they are not celebrated for it. School culture matters.

[SanDiegoMom]

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t know how it works at the public school because I have never darkened the door there except to vote in an election. But I do know the school uses “tracks.” So if you’re in these classes, you are college-prep track, and if you’re in those, you are on a non-college track. Obviously anyone can go to college or not go to college when high school is over - and I myself was not tracked for college in high school, but I still chose as an adult to go - but I do think it is easier to head to college when your peers have been talking about and preparing for it all along. 

I think the bottom line is that it comes down to control. Homeschooling works really well for those of us who like a high degree of control in determining what our kids need. It’s half the reason I wanted to hs in the first place. Or more than half! Next best is private school because, obviously, if I’m paying thousands of dollars to send a kid there, I feel I have a right to argue for whatever my kid needs. But public offers the least control: the school just needs to offer classes. It does not need to determine where a kid best belongs and may or may not care. My fear is they will only care a tiny bit if I shelve the introvert and channel a bitchy extrovert and bug them until I am satisfied with the placement. 

 

There are so many public high schools operating in so many different ways it is hard to generalize this. My daughter, never homeschooled, has attended two different high schools run with very different administration priorities (one was high performing, high socioeconomic area and the other was semi rural and more more of the averag high school experience). In both she had as much control over her schedule as she wanted - as long as she knew the basic requirements to graduate and was able to advocate for herself. Which she did in spades.  I remember my own experience in HS after finishing my regular geometry class (which I barely passed) telling my teacher to recommend me for honors Alg 2. He laughed at me. I told him I could handle it and to put me in so he did. IN OUR EXPERIENCE if a kid clearly wants to be in honors the school will do it. 

All this is to say- policies might be written but every situation is unique and guidance counselors are just humans who want what's best for the students.  Especially if they have learned how to self advocate. 

[KathyBC]

19 hours ago, Quill said:

I hear what you’re saying but one homeschooler I know, who is in a position to know specifically what is going on at the ps my son would attend, said it hinges on what level classes the kid is in. So if he struggles in his English skills, putting him in the non-Honors English (where he academically belongs) would be a bad negative for peer group. He will be “making friends with the undesirable crowd and his social activities will be an extension of that.” That freaked me right out, in part because I have seen evidence of that in other kids who transitioned from hs to public. So, from what she is saying, there is *not* much opportunity to move away. She said it would be better for him to be in Honors English where he can be around the decent kids, even if he’s practically failing, then demote to base English with the troubled kids. 

There are two similar trouble spots in our area:
Which math stream is taken in high school
Whether or not second language is pursued

[Terabith]

I'm not an elitist person at all.  But the behavioral issues in the non honors classes are significant.  I asked the middle school teachers about my seventh grader with learning disabilities and if she belonged in there, and they said, "Well, academically she might struggle in honors, but she would be very frustrated and overstimulated by the behavior of the other kids in the non honors classes."  Even in her honors classes, kids are loud and throw things all the time.  

[Joker]

My junior dd has taken a mix of Honors, AP, and standard classes. This year she is in AP classes for English and Science but chose standard (not even Honors) for History and Math. The class she dreads the most because of the other students is AP Biology. She seriously hates going and says the kids are just awful. She has zero issues in her standard classes. I'll admit I was worried it would be the way some are stating here regarding bad behavior in standard classes because it seems that's what so many claim but it hasn't been our experience at all.

Dd is still on track to receive an Honors Diploma but that doesn't mean all classes have to be AP and Honors. She was burnt out on the History stuff so chose standard this year and she really struggled in her Honors Math class last year to hang on to a C so chose standard pre-calc this year. Our school didn't fight us at all on any of it. 

 

[Terabith]

Yeah, I think a lot is specific to particular schools.

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, the mom giving me advice in this respect is in a position to know and she basically said it has practically nothing to do with his academic ability. They don’t even place him in there with a placement test. The kids not in Honors (or AP) are the problem peers. The non-Honors classes are NOT about assisting struggling students (in the public school) who will probably go to college after all. It’s for warehousing the troubled kids. This is what the wife of a teacher told me. She advised me to put him in Honors no matter what. 

Also, I have a similar issue with math because we are not doing Alg 1 this year; we are doing financial managment. IMO, it is much more important for him to do the financial management course than Alg 1. It does not bother me for him to do Alg 1 for 9th grade; my older two did this and it was totally fine. BUT! It was at the private school! They worked with me! But now I feel scared by what my friend told me and i am afraid I “should” cram Algebra down his throat so he won’t get in the dreaded low classes with the delinquents! 

 

 

Fwiw, my son’s school has some actual delinquent teens being sent to it apparently by some judge trying to place them in a school away from the city and former influences.   They can be at any level academically.  

I realize that some inner city schools may have large numbers of students in gangs and other problems. And that may be true where you are. 

However, it may also be that your friend is adding unwarranted fear about regular English and Algebra 1 classes.  

Perhaps it would help if you could personally observe some regular and Honors classes at the school while it is in session.  This might help you determine whether your son would be better off in the one or the other. Or to perhaps decide that neither is a good fit.  

 

Eta: at my son’s school, regular 9th grade math taken by most 9th graders, is still algebra 1.  More advanced students will have had Algebra before 9th grade.  Less math able students take a 2-year Algebra 1 sequence: Algebra 1A, Algebra 1B.  Students unlikely to get a regular diploma take “life skills” math.  Too bad though that all the kids don’t get life skills math and personal finance, which does seem useful and important for everyone.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Pen

[Tanaqui]

Quill, it seems to me that most of the parents must send their kids to the public school. Do you really only know one person who can give you any insight into the high school?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Quill, it seems to me that most of the parents must send their kids to the public school. Do you really only know one person who can give you any insight into the high school?

No, there are others. This person’s opinion has more weight, though, in part because she is teaching a class with my son in it. So she is uniquely positioned to give me a panic attack over my son’s skill level. 

[Reefgazer]

Look into the private school job.  You don't have to accept it, but it will be good to have that as an option.

[Arcadia]

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

I'm not an elitist person at all.  But the behavioral issues in the non honors classes are significant.  ...  Even in her honors classes, kids are loud and throw things all the time.  

 

In my area almost everyone is in honors class or AP classes because of the GPA boost. The public schools are trying to be helpful by boosting GPA and besides grade inflation, listing a class as honors is another way schools can help. We have non-honors class but those are rare and mainly 9th grade class since the grades for 9th grade courses are not included in the state universities’ application.

[Terabith]

When I was in high school, there were no weights to honors or AP classes, and also an A was only 95-100 and a B was 88-94.  Anything below 75 was failing.  It was annoying to move to a different high school as a junior and have my 94 B listed only as B on my transcript, when at that school a B was 80-89.  

[Tanaqui]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

No, there are others. This person’s opinion has more weight, though, in part because she is teaching a class with my son in it. So she is uniquely positioned to give me a panic attack over my son’s skill level. 

 

I understand that and sympathize, but if (perhaps) nearly everybody is happy with the school and says these concerns are overblown then maybe her opinion is slightly askew no matter her inside position. (Alternatively, if lots of people express some doubts then you are on firmer ground when you tell your kid "Sorry, but no".)

[DawnM]

I thought much of the same about our local public school.  This area is wealthier overall and the kids are snobby and elitist (I thought) and had money to buy "the good drugs."

I finally relented and allowed my middle son to attend, and then sent my youngest.  We have had the best experience there!  I have been pleasantly surprised.  Yes, there are some really snobby kids, but there are at our church too!  Yes, some kids take drugs, but not nearly the numbers I had been lead to believe.  

There are some disadvantages (for us) to private school......distance, which includes all activities, getting to friends' houses, etc.....cost, not all teachers are fully credentialed (yes, that bothers me, it may not bother some), and many at the school we were looking at are snobbier than the ones who are at the local PS.

[Pen]

13 hours ago, Quill said:

No, there are others. This person’s opinion has more weight, though, in part because she is teaching a class with my son in it. So she is uniquely positioned to give me a panic attack over my son’s skill level. 

 

Currently there is a trend toward early algebra etc.    However, brain maturity for abstraction may not be present yet, perhaps especially for boys, during middle school.  Reaching maturity for abstraction, or for that matter maturity for extended seat work, may not be relevant to ultimate abilities.  

It is possible that this person’s views are relevant as to the local public school and the way it approaches regular track students.  It is also very possible that she is unduly causing you a panic attack.

 If her husband is a teacher or department head at the public school, perhaps talking with him directly would be another useful thing to do.  

 I wonder if she regards your son’s skill level in a way that tends to give you a panic attack, whether she is a good person to be teaching him. And if her husband as a teacher or department head at the public school is of a mind to ignore the regular track students as “delinquents” that doesn’t sound very positive about him.  

It could also be that this person hears her husband blow off steam about trouble with difficult kids and has jumped to conclusion that all the regular track students are “delinquents” because her husband doesn’t say much about the ones who aren’t giving him agita. 

After getting more clarity from other people and the husband, then talking to the principal of the public school might be helpful.  

 

ETA: I may have mixed you up with someone else in my mind, but if I recall correctly that you are dealing with significant health challenges, I would be reluctant to get into a situation where your son’s schooling depends (or semi depends) on your being able to add a job onto what you’re dealing with.  If health issues aren’t a problem, and you would enjoy the job there, then the known private school might rise in my view as a good option.  

Edited January 20, 2019 by Pen

[almondbutterandjelly]

Quill, your other kids went to the private school.  Send your ds to the private school.  They will work with you, it will allow him to be in sports -- I don't see any downsides to it.  Your ds will make friends.

Although this thread has evolved into a "public schools aren't so bad" debate, that isn't really the issue.  The issue is that you have been happy with the private school for your other two, but you are tempted by the "free" public school and your son knows a kid that goes there.  I get it.  But you are already familiar with the private school and like it. Just choose the known school.

[lmrich]

Chiming it to say ask about the job. Apply him to the private school and see what happens in the next few months. 

[hippiemamato3]

18 hours ago, Terabith said:

I'm not an elitist person at all.  But the behavioral issues in the non honors classes are significant.  I asked the middle school teachers about my seventh grader with learning disabilities and if she belonged in there, and they said, "Well, academically she might struggle in honors, but she would be very frustrated and overstimulated by the behavior of the other kids in the non honors classes."  Even in her honors classes, kids are loud and throw things all the time.  

 
This is bizarre to me. This kind of behavior does not happen at our public schools in any level class. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Currently there is a trend toward early algebra etc.    However, brain maturity for abstraction may not be present yet, perhaps especially for boys, during middle school.  Reaching maturity for abstraction, or for that matter maturity for extended seat work, may not be relevant to ultimate abilities.  

It is possible that this person’s views are relevant as to the local public school and the way it approaches regular track students.  It is also very possible that she is unduly causing you a panic attack.

 If her husband is a teacher or department head at the public school, perhaps talking with him directly would be another useful thing to do.  

 I wonder if she regards your son’s skill level in a way that tends to give you a panic attack, whether she is a good person to be teaching him. And if her husband as a teacher or department head at the public school is of a mind to ignore the regular track students as “delinquents” that doesn’t sound very positive about him.  

It could also be that this person hears her husband blow off steam about trouble with difficult kids and has jumped to conclusion that all the regular track students are “delinquents” because her husband doesn’t say much about the ones who aren’t giving him agita. 

After getting more clarity from other people and the husband, then talking to the principal of the public school might be helpful.  

 

ETA: I may have mixed you up with someone else in my mind, but if I recall correctly that you are dealing with significant health challenges, I would be reluctant to get into a situation where your son’s schooling depends (or semi depends) on your being able to add a job onto what you’re dealing with.  If health issues aren’t a problem, and you would enjoy the job there, then the known private school might rise in my view as a good option.  

You’re not wrong; I’m wresting my health back from breast cancer. But, assuming nothing unusual happens - if indeed we can excuse the fact of getting cancer at 48 to begin with is already a bad surprise - I will have kicked cancer to the curb by the end of this month. At that point, life just goes on, Lord willing. It won’t be better or worse to be employed or not employed. If cancer returns, which I sure do hope doesn’t happen, I would just have to cross that bridge when it appears. 

I told dh about the job today. He is neither strongly in favor or against that possibility. His one concern is my own concern - will I be happy working FT? Will I be a frazzled mess because my time is more constricted? This part I am on the fence about, too. 

[Terabith]

4 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 
This is bizarre to me. This kind of behavior does not happen at our public schools in any level class. 

We are an inner city district.  Every student in the district receives free breakfast and lunch.  Lots of poverty, which certainly doesn't cause behavioral problems, but there does tend to be a bit of a correlation.

[73349]

12 hours ago, Pen said:

 And if her husband as a teacher or department head at the public school is of a mind to ignore the regular track students as “delinquents” that doesn’t sound very positive about him.  

It could also be that this person hears her husband blow off steam about trouble with difficult kids and has jumped to conclusion that all the regular track students are “delinquents” because her husband doesn’t say much about the ones who aren’t giving him agita.

It could be that this is a high school like one of the two I attended: the "honors/advanced" sections are actually college prep (90% of the students will read most/all of the book, woohoo! and 70% will study; nearly all will pass the course, but maybe 20% will produce output at what the teacher would consider an advanced level), the CP classes are really the general track but the guidance counselors want you to keep your options open (70% will manage to pass the course; the top 20% will produce output at the level the teacher was really hoping for), and anybody placed elsewhere is doing badly and not likely to graduate on time and ready for college (though there can be any number of reasons for that). Nice kids and not-very-nice kids could be found at every level (and definitely alcohol use as well, but those in the honors track kept it under control if they didn't avoid it entirely). In-class behavior improved as you got to the highest level of courses.

Or like a private school where I taught, in which there was no "regular" track offered below CP, because all the parents wanted all their kids to go to college--everybody in honors had strong ability and did a lot of work, but good character did not necessarily correlate one way or the other.

Edited January 21, 2019 by whitehawk
omitted a word

[Katy]

To everyone who is mystified by some of these things... that's because these things vary WIDELY by location and even by state.  Some areas have college prep vs non prep classes.  Others try to prepare everyone for college whether they are going or not. In areas where a large percentage of kids aren't going to college, high school is often just a way to keep teens out of trouble. In some areas schools don't have much authority to do anything about discipline problems unless another student gets a restraining order against a troubled student. In some areas the idea that a kid from a good family must be in honors classes is elitist.  In others it is just sadly TRUE.

Also it is entirely possible to ask a kid his thoughts about which school he'd prefer WITHOUT giving him the idea the choice is his.  Quill is one of the most conscientious people here, if you look back over her posts over the years there is little to no chance her youngest is confused about this.  Frankly given his history he might be more interested in the public school than the private based solely upon what he heard about screen time & computer use there, let alone which has the better food.

The social groups, the choices already made, the sports, the known quantity... unless there were a drastic financial change that necessitated selling off assets or moving, I'd send the kid to the private school, even if I had to get a job to do so in order to ease DH's anxiety about it.  Of course you could also get a similar job at a private college and earn tuition money that way (many give scholarships to the children of full time employees).

[Arcadia]

17 hours ago, Katy said:

To everyone who is mystified by some of these things... that's because these things vary WIDELY by location and even by state.  Some areas have college prep vs non prep classes.  Others try to prepare everyone for college whether they are going or not. In areas where a large percentage of kids aren't going to college, high school is often just a way to keep teens out of trouble. 

...

Also it is entirely possible to ask a kid his thoughts about which school he'd prefer WITHOUT giving him the idea the choice is his. 

 

My school district has only 42% of the graduating classes from the two high schools satisfying the minimum requirements for applying to state universities. That is not counting the two alternative high schools which aims for kids to stay out of legal trouble and get a high school diploma by 22 years old. So parents who can’t afford to be parent volunteers almost daily started sending their kids to private high schools which have more than 90% being eligible for state universities. 

My kids toured a few private high schools and gave their feedback. They know that it’s like college applications, checking which schools are high on the do not wish to attend list. There was a high ranking private school that my kids were bored with, so that was useful to know even though we could afford both kids going there if it was a great fit.

[Ausmumof3]

I’m that person that hasn’t read all the replies sorry.

i think one thing I’d be considering is that your comparing not so much private to public but a school you know, already have a relationship with and a school that you have no experience with.  Knowing that the school was caring and had handled my other kids difficult times well would be a huge selling point to me.

The job thing would depend.  If it’s a job that you would be happy doing regardless go for it, but working in the same school as your kids is not necessarily a selling point.  It can be good or bad.  If there’s something you’d prefer to do to make up the money so that instead.

i also totally hear you on that 3rd child money thing.  There’s always guilt about spending less or more on one or other kid.