Video based Great Books, what are my options?

[ByGrace3]

I had been considering a live class for dd for next year to study Ancients (was considering the Great Conversations classes at WH), however, I am currently considering a video based course that dd (will be 9th), ds (7th) and I could do together. We are Christians and want the course taught from a Christian perspective/worldview. What are my options? I have looked at the courses at Roman Roads which look promising. Any feedback on that? Also, the writing/grading option for $200/year looks sparkly to me, is that worth it? I would probably only do that for dd as I think ds is going to take another online class for writing. Other options? 

[Roadrunner]

Ancient Greeks through Christian perspective? I don’t see how this is possible. I would recommend Great Courses lectures. 

[SeaConquest]

I don't think you can go wrong with Roman Roads. I've heard nothing but good things over the years. I don't know anything about the writing option, but I know there are others who have taken the Schola Tutorials classes -- is that different?

[ByGrace3]

9 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I don't think you can go wrong with Roman Roads. I've heard nothing but good things over the years. I don't know anything about the writing option, but I know there are others who have taken the Schola Tutorials classes -- is that different?

 

It is different. in addition to the online classes, they have a grading and writing services which according to their website:

"each student in the service will receive personalized grading for four Old Western Culture exams, and coaching and grading on 3 papers written throughout the year. Writing in the first semester will focus on producing two shorter essays (500-750 words) and honing skills in advancing and defending a thesis statement. The second semester’s writing will focus on one longer paper (1,500 words) written in two stages, the rough draft and the final draft. Each student will develop a thesis around something they are studying in the student’s current year of Old Western Culture.

The advisor will coach the student through each stage of the writing process for the final paper, and be available for questions and advice during virtual office hours throughout the school year. At the end of the year, the advisor will assign each student a grade for the course based on the four exams and the three papers.

No writing experience or prerequisite course necessary. Though this is not a class unto itself, our tutor is more than happy to answer questions and work with students to give advice and feedback tailored to their level of experience.

Students will grow their writing skills, including practice in:

• writing a topic proposal
• developing a thesis statement and abstract
• writing a first draft
• polishing a final draft.
• creating academic citations and bibliographies"

I am just wondering if the service is worth it. I want dd's writing for next year to tie into the Great Books study and this seems like it might provide some help to that end. DD will also be taking Discovery of Deduction with Schole Academy and there is some writing in the logic classes as well... If we do this writing/grading option with DoD, will that be enough for writing for 9th grade? I am thinking she will take the Persuasive writing and debate classes at Schole for 10th... My son is a much better writer, and I am more comfortable helping him. My dd takes everything personally so another voice than mine is helpful with her.

[ByGrace3]

36 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Dd is in GB3. We use RR videos/workbooks with Schola Tutorial live classes with Wes Callihan. I do not pay for the grading through RR since Wes Callihan is our primary teacher. For us I’ve never been able to justify the grading cost with RR. Although he uses the schedule available in the RR course (it’s his course they’re selling) he deviates from it a bit. Some years more than others. I think he is an amazing instructor. If you could afford the Schola, I would do the live class too and skip the grading from RR instead. That’s just my personal opinion. But you’ll have the recordings, the workbooks which have questions and writing prompts and exams if you chose to administer them, but with Schola you get an additional weekly live lecture. That’s my dd’s favorite part. Wes is an EPIC story teller. I mean epic. He can capture the attention of everyone in this house when dd has it on speaker instead of headphones. I took his GB adults class, and although I didn’t get to complete it due to time conflict with dh having an unexpectedly busy work season that year, I got so much out of the months I did get to attend. 

I will also say, going in as a 9th grander, it’s a lot of reading. And if you have other online classes, sometimes it’s nice to have the option of ducking a writing assignment or two with GB3 to compensate for another class that may be harder than expected. If you do the grading then, that lessens that option. And while I think a 7th grader can get a lot out of the class, I do think it’s better for high school age. This is not light reading, especially in GB2+. Wes makes it come to life and be understandable, but I just wouldn’t have been able to hand my 7th or 8th grader Boethius and had that go well, ifykwim. Ymmv of course, but just my experience. They read books and works in those courses I didn’t read in undergrad or grad school. So, you could always give it a year and just use the workbook as needed and then decide the following year if you want to spring for the graded portion. 

ETA- Ancient Greeks through a Christian perspective is sort of the whole basis of Classical Christian Education as I understand it. If anyone wants more info on that I highly recommend reading Andrew Kern’s book or going to the CiRCE website as an approachable starting point. 

 

Thank you, this is helpful. Ideally we would do an online class I think, but with a live online class option I would have to purchase 2 for dd and ds so double the money. Omnibus 1 and Great Conversations 1 (at WH) are designed for 7th grade and up so I was kind of hoping for something along that level. Is the RR course a much higher level? 

Edited January 15, 2019 by ByGrace3

[ByGrace3]

41 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

So if you didn’t do the grading with RR, I would just email Wes and tell him you’re interested in two students attending his live lectures at once and see what he would say on the cost. All he assigns is reading and gives the schedule for reading and workbook questions that align but you turn nothing into him. He grades nothing. He assigns no papers. That’s all on you as the parent to assign as you will. So it’s crazy flexible on your end. You are basically paying him for the lectures and the RR workbooks and recorded lectures are included in that cost.

He usually does an early registration discount in Feb/March. But he doesn’t run this like a typical online course. It’s him and just him. No Canvas. Now the students have a chat box and can interact with him, but for the most part he’s lecturing the whole class. The kids get to know each other though and that’s nice- they have a pretty consistent group that goes through. Does that make sense? 

Heres his website if you want to look and contact him with questions. 

http://scholatutorials.org/

I have never used Omnibus or WH so I can’t speak to difficulty- but the reading lists are on RR so you could compare that for year 1 to give you an idea. They start with the Iliad I know, but I can’t remember what all they read in year 1. It’s been a while. 🙂 

Just curious, if there is very little discussion/interaction, what is the benefit of doing the live classes as opposed to the videos? Thank you for all of your help!

[JoJosMom]

5 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Dd is in GB3. We use RR videos/workbooks with Schola Tutorial live classes with Wes Callihan. I do not pay for the grading through RR since Wes Callihan is our primary teacher. For us I’ve never been able to justify the grading cost with RR. Although he uses the schedule available in the RR course (it’s his course they’re selling) he deviates from it a bit. Some years more than others. I think he is an amazing instructor. If you could afford the Schola, I would do the live class too and skip the grading from RR instead. That’s just my personal opinion. But you’ll have the recordings, the workbooks which have questions and writing prompts and exams if you chose to administer them, but with Schola you get an additional weekly live lecture. That’s my dd’s favorite part. Wes is an EPIC story teller. I mean epic. He can capture the attention of everyone in this house when dd has it on speaker instead of headphones. I took his GB adults class, and although I didn’t get to complete it due to time conflict with dh having an unexpectedly busy work season that year, I got so much out of the months I did get to attend. 

I will also say, going in as a 9th grander, it’s a lot of reading. And if you have other online classes, sometimes it’s nice to have the option of ducking a writing assignment or two with GB3 to compensate for another class that may be harder than expected. If you do the grading then, that lessens that option. And while I think a 7th grader can get a lot out of the class, I do think it’s better for high school age. This is not light reading, especially in GB2+. Wes makes it come to life and be understandable, but I just wouldn’t have been able to hand my 7th or 8th grader Boethius and had that go well, ifykwim. Ymmv of course, but just my experience. They read books and works in those courses I didn’t read in undergrad or grad school. So, you could always give it a year and just use the workbook as needed and then decide the following year if you want to spring for the graded portion. 

ETA- Ancient Greeks through a Christian perspective is sort of the whole basis of Classical Christian Education as I understand it. If anyone wants more info on that I highly recommend reading Andrew Kern’s book or going to the CiRCE website as an approachable starting point. 

 

I agree. 100%. Fabulous curriculum and Wes Callihan is awesome.

Personally, I scratched Omnibus off my list because of their plagiarism, but I know that others like the program.

[TarynB]

Just for another option to consider, my son is taking the Great Books classes offered online by Brian Wasko (Wasko Lit), which you can find through his main website, WriteAtHome.com. Link: https://www.writeathome.com/wasko-lit/

The Great Books classes are live, once a week discussion classes with low output requirements. Completely separate from all the various asynchronous writing classes that are offered on his website. There's a weekly multiple choice quiz of like 8-10 questions to keep the kids accountable on their reading schedule, a discussion forum, and a semester paper or project. (I like the lighter workload because it frees up our schedule for other writing instruction. There is more to life to lit analysis, lol!) Mr. Wasko is a Christian; however our experience is that the discussion is respectful towards all faiths. DS is in his third year of the lit classes and he really, really likes Mr. Wasko. DS has a schedule conflict this year, so he isn't able to attend the live class most weeks, but he watches the recordings and that is working out just as well as the previous two years when he attended live classes.

Great Books 1 covers ancient Greece and Rome. Book list pasted below:

The Lit 1 Syllabus includes:

• Mythology, Edith Hamilton
• The Iliad, Homer
• The Odyssey, Homer
• Agamemnon, Aeschylus
• Oedipus Rex, Sophocles
• Medea, Euripides
• Antigone, Sophocles
• Selections from Dialogues, Plato
• The Republic, Plato
• Poetics, Aristotle
• Till We Have Faces, C.S. Lewis
• Selections from Fables, Aesop
• Selections from Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans, Plutarch
• The Aeneid, Virgil 
• Julius Caesar, Shakespeare

Edited January 15, 2019 by TarynB

[RubyPenn]

5 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

Just curious, if there is very little discussion/interaction, what is the benefit of doing the live classes as opposed to the videos? Thank you for all of your help!

And along these lines, can the OWC video lectures stand on their own?  Can they be paired with another curriculum purely for the benefit of listening to Wes Callihan?  I am wondering if I can pair the videos with MP Middle Ages history and lit.

[RubyPenn]

13 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Do you mean stand on their own as just lectures without reading the works and doing the writing? 

Yes, so would it work to watch the lectures, but do MP history and literature from the same time period?  I'm sure the most ideal thing would be to do OWC as a whole, but I'm just trying to figure out all my options.  I've only looked at the one video they have for Christendom, which is the introduction, so I can't tell if what I'm proposing will work or not.

[JoJosMom]

Chiming in to say that I agree with everything The Genius Mom from Texas has said. 🙂

[ByGrace3]

Just curious, are there any video options that cover Greeks and Romans in one year?

[RubyPenn]

23 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I’ve never used MP, so honestly I’m not sure. It seems like for the money of both it would be a lot of work to line up, as just glancing at MP 9th grade list, they cover a lot more ground/years than he is in GB1. If I spent that much $$ I wouldn’t want to do that much work to try and fit them together. I mean, there is always something to gain from his lectures, but I don’t know that I would advise it if you are really wanting to do MP. I’d be wary of overloading my student. 

I'm not planning on doing everything MP has listed for 9th grade, like American and Roman history, Christian studies, their Logic, or Latin.  Does that make a difference?  

[RubyPenn]

8 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I just really am not sure- sorry! 😞  You might ask over on the MP forums. I don't know how active they are, but since there is a lot of cross over between fans of MP and Circe, a lot of Circe fans know Wes's stuff as he's collaborated with Circe , so the MP forums may be your best bet to see if anyone has done this combo. 

No problem!  I will ask over there. 😊

[Clear Creek]

On 1/16/2019 at 8:49 AM, RubyPenn said:

Yes, so would it work to watch the lectures, but do MP history and literature from the same time period?  I'm sure the most ideal thing would be to do OWC as a whole, but I'm just trying to figure out all my options.  I've only looked at the one video they have for Christendom, which is the introduction, so I can't tell if what I'm proposing will work or not.

My oldest is doing one unit of OWC this year (the Philosophers) and I don't think what you are suggesting would work very well. The lectures are an in-depth discussion of the assigned reading. The student would have to do the reading assigned for OWC in order to get enough from the lectures to make it worthwhile.

[cintinative]

Can anyone on this thread answer if we can take the Roman Roads or Wasko Lit courses out of order? My son is in GC1 at WHA and we would not want to do ancients again in 9th. I can't see anything about prerequisites?

The Wasko Lit class is appealing to me because it includes writing. I am not sure about how to manage history alongside a course like this though since the lit is history based already. I have a lot of research to do!

OP, thank you very much for asking this question.  If you are curious about the amount of discussion in WHA GC classes, it is a large amount. I just watched two GC1 classes in full and I would say probably 80% was teacher-led student discussion.  

Also, I would say GC1 covers Greeks and Romans.  I would also say it is a very rigorous course and to consider your child carefully. My eldest is a good reader, but he has been really challenged by the reading and I think part of it is the maturity is just not there yet. I am surprised at some of the works they are discussing at 7th grade and how well some of the students can discuss and apply them. He is just not there. So we are surviving, but not enjoying, GC1. I think we might have been better to wait and put him in GC2 or possibly to just wait until high school.  YMMV.  Like I said, I am really impressed by the maturity and depth of understanding of some of the other (7th graders!!) in his class.  Many of them are girls. LOL. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by cintinative

[JoJosMom]

6 hours ago, cintinative said:

Can anyone on this thread answer if we can take the Roman Roads or Wasko Lit courses out of order? My son is in GC1 at WHA and we would not want to do ancients again in 9th. I can't see anything about prerequisites?

The Wasko Lit class is appealing to me because it includes writing. I am not sure about how to manage history alongside a course like this though since the lit is history based already. I have a lot of research to do!

OP, thank you very much for asking this question.  If you are curious about the amount of discussion in WHA GC classes, it is a large amount. I just watched two GC1 classes in full and I would say probably 80% was teacher-led student discussion.  

Also, I would say GC1 covers Greeks and Romans.  I would also say it is a very rigorous course and to consider your child carefully. My eldest is a good reader, but he has been really challenged by the reading and I think part of it is the maturity is just not there yet. I am surprised at some of the works they are discussing at 7th grade and how well some of the students can discuss and apply them. He is just not there. So we are surviving, but not enjoying, GC1. I think we might have been better to wait and put him in GC2 or possibly to just wait until high school.  YMMV.  Like I said, I am really impressed by the maturity and depth of understanding of some of the other (7th graders!!) in his class.  Many of them are girls. LOL. 

 

3 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I cannot think of any reason why you couldn't take the Roman Roads courses out of order, assuming the student was capable of the content level. That's going to be the defining factor imo. But you wouldn't be missing something over a linear progression that would be determinate that I can recall. I think you could still end up making the same connections in a different order, say you jumped to 2 because he didn't want to do ancients. But these are works a ton of people don't read until college IF even then, so I think your point on the bolded is the most important consideration of any of the OWC courses with RR or with Schola Tutorials. Consider your child and look at the books and reading schedule. 

My important disclaimer is that I have no idea how Mr. Callihan would feel about the order being switched, so I am only speaking to the recorded videos as far as Roman Roads product- not if a student are attending Schola Tutorials. In that case you would want to ask him directly.

I will say that the additional live lectures with Schola have been very beneficial in giving my dd a deeper understanding, but the RR videos on their own are a great product. She is just a kid that I know has been able to get more out of it through the live/available discussion component whereas not all kids need/want that. She just happens to. 

Hopefully @JoJosMom can chime in too on the RR order question. 

 I don't see any reason why you couldn't simply jump into the second year ASSUMING that your student covered a substantial amount of the year 1 reading in his other course (generally there is much overlap in "great courses" courses.) I'd just compare the reading lists. I DO, however, think it's important to proceed linearly, because the ideas underlying Western thought proceed so.

As for writing, there is a writing component to OWC, with short answer questions, quarterly papers, and exams. But you have to grade it yourself. Which makes me, personally, want to barf. But that's me. 🙂

As for the Schola lectures, I completely agree with my friend from Texas. Wes Callihan is a BRILLIANT lecturer (and super fun to listen to!); his live lectures are something my daughter very much looks forward to.

(Just realized that your student is in 7th, cintinative. If I were in your shoes, I'd consider re-starting the sequence in 9th with Greeks and Romans, especially if the big ideas aren't really clicking yet. Seventh grade is still so young; maybe he'd be better served by giving it some time?)

Sorry this is a bit disjointed; I'm multi-tasking. Badly.

[TarynB]

9 hours ago, cintinative said:

Can anyone on this thread answer if we can take the Roman Roads or Wasko Lit courses out of order? My son is in GC1 at WHA and we would not want to do ancients again in 9th. I can't see anything about prerequisites?

The Wasko Lit class is appealing to me because it includes writing. I am not sure about how to manage history alongside a course like this though since the lit is history based already. I have a lot of research to do!

 

For Wasko Lit, yes, you can just jump into the sequence for the course/time period you want. My son did ancients, skipped middle ages (partly bc it covers a lot of Shakespeare which he had already done a lot of elsewhere), then did renaissance, and is now in modern. DS says in his experience none of the lit courses require any of the previous courses (or books).

However, a word of caution if you are looking to Wasko Lit to cover a lot of writing instruction: Wasko Lit does not spend a lot of time on writing instruction and there is not a lot of writing output required. That is a plus for us, but may not be for others. (We've covered writing instruction in all its various forms with other resources, including WriteAtHome, among others.) The focus of the lit courses really is to read, discuss, and enjoy the books. There is some writing instruction focused on lit analysis. For the entire year there are two lit analysis papers and two "creative projects" (i.e., create a powerpoint about one of the books covered that semester, etc.). The two lit analysis papers come back with comments and constructive criticism, but there are not multiple drafts handed back and forth. It works out to one assignment (either a paper or a project) per quarter. HTH.

The website explains how each class works and provides a list of the books covered, etc. https://www.writeathome.com/wasko-lit/

Edited January 20, 2019 by TarynB

[JoJosMom]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Oh- reading Jojosmom' s reply-- yes I am also just  realizing you are talking about possibly a junior high student as well?

In that case I would leave it to wait. Even if he is exceptionally mature, I'd be hesitant to push this type of subject matter early. I mean, as a 40+ something adult I am having life changing revelations reading these works. (And admittedly I still have not read them all!) And perhaps that's just me, but I cannot imagine reading these pre-high school. My biggest concern to be honest, is that my dd never picks these works up again under the thought of "but I've already read it". But hopefully, she comes to a conclusion that she's only just begun. In any case. I don't think I would rush to start them before 9th at the soonest. 

 

Brace yourself: I agree with this, too. 😋 As for the concern, does your daughter reread favorite books? We frequently discuss how much more one gets from rereading material. It's a pretty good jumping-off point for suggesting that she reread deeper material.

[cintinative]

11 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Oh- reading Jojosmom' s reply-- yes I am also just  realizing you are talking about possibly a junior high student as well?

In that case I would leave it to wait. Even if he is exceptionally mature, I'd be hesitant to push this type of subject matter early. I mean, as a 40+ something adult I am having life changing revelations reading these works. (And admittedly I still have not read them all!) And perhaps that's just me, but I cannot imagine reading these pre-high school. My biggest concern to be honest, is that my dd never picks these works up again under the thought of "but I've already read it". But hopefully, she comes to a conclusion that she's only just begun. In any case. I don't think I would rush to start them before 9th at the soonest. 

 

Based on our experience in GC1, I completely agree with this. I know I am going to get pushback when we try to cover some of these books again because he has not enjoyed them this go-round. This is not going to be everyone's experience, but it has been ours. I had this idea that since the class was geared toward 7th and it wasn't listed as an honors/gifted class, then we would be okay. But as I said earlier, you must really consider the child you are teaching. 

[RubyPenn]

On 1/19/2019 at 11:57 AM, Clear Creek said:

My oldest is doing one unit of OWC this year (the Philosophers) and I don't think what you are suggesting would work very well. The lectures are an in-depth discussion of the assigned reading. The student would have to do the reading assigned for OWC in order to get enough from the lectures to make it worthwhile.

Thanks!  I did email RR over the weekend and asked if the Christendom program should really be done as a whole and I was told the lectures give a good overview of the books that are read and I can use them with another curriculum.  Maybe the unit you are doing is a little different?  I am still trying to figure out what to do.  I wish they had more samples videos up than just the introduction.  That would help me decide.

[Clear Creek]

12 hours ago, RubyPenn said:

Thanks!  I did email RR over the weekend and asked if the Christendom program should really be done as a whole and I was told the lectures give a good overview of the books that are read and I can use them with another curriculum.  Maybe the unit you are doing is a little different?  I am still trying to figure out what to do.  I wish they had more samples videos up than just the introduction.  That would help me decide.

The unit I am doing is a literature unit, not a history unit, so I am sure that makes a difference. You could try to align the MP literature with the lectures in OWC, but I am not sure how that would work...for example, MP schedules the Divine Comedy over one year, but OWC does it in one quarter. If you did the MP workbook for it, that would mean doing what MP considers one English credit's worth of work in nine weeks - plus the time it takes to watch the 12 lectures in that unit.

MP and OWC are both very solid options, though very different. I would just pick one and go with it. Or just add some of the OWC videos to your study - not the entire year's worth.