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lewelma

SAT Math - pretty bad situation - UPDATE #2

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8, I'm assuming the recruiter knows about all this. NZ students seems to get full rides to USA schools quite often, just from my first hand knowledge. And in some pretty weird sports and at obscure schools.  I don't know diddly about any of this, but can bring it up with the mom.  She is paying an agency to handle this aspect of the process. 

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4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Each SAT test date has a different predetermined grading/scoring curve. She might get an easy one, a hard one or even a recycled one. My younger kid improved by 250 points from the 12## to 15## (both in 6th grade). I would say he was lucky twice.

 

I thought these tests were curved.  If you got an easy one, the curve would be harsher. Show do you change by 250 points between exams based on easy/hard exams?!??!

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10 hours ago, chiguirre said:

 

I agree with this. My DD took the SAT for the first time before she took Algebra. I bought her this book - it includes tips for approaching Algebra problems using other strategies. It also has a good review of the types of math you encounter on the exam. She found it very helpful and did well on the math section. 

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After reading the replies, I still would reiterate that she needs to be absolutely solid in algebra not just for the SAT but to have basic proficiency to survive college math classes. If she is being recruited, I am assuming she is going to a Division 1 school? Playing sports at this level is like working nearly a full-time job. I lived in a dorm at Cal with lots of athletes. One of my dormmates was softball player. It was absolutely brutal on them. One of the basketball players asked me to tutor him in math, but honestly, he was in way over his head as was my dormmate. Granted this was Cal, so it would never have been easy. To me, there's a long game that needs to be solved for as well.

 

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4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

 

I thought these tests were curved.  If you got an easy one, the curve would be harsher. Show do you change by 250 points between exams based on easy/hard exams?!??!

 

They are curved. 

I don’t want to speak for her, but her kids are PG, so it’s a different ballgame altogether. 

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I don't believe that lots of NZ kids are getting full ride sports scholarships. Sports scholarships in the US are highly regulated. The link I posted tells exactly how many scholarships are allowed and the avg amt players receive.  Look at the numbers for the school she is being recruited for. You should also be able to see the recruiting stats. It will help you see the big picture outside of the college app hype.

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Just now, 8FillTheHeart said:

I don't believe that lots of NZ kids are getting full ride sports scholarships. Sports scholarships in the US are highly regulated. The link I posted tells exactly how many scholarships are allowed and the avg amt players receive.  Look at the numbers for the school she is being recruited for. You should also be able to see the recruiting stats. It will help you see the big picture outside of the college app hype.

Humm.  I'm not sure I want to be involved in the scholarship piece. She is not paying me for that, she is paying a different agency.  However, I'll suggest she check on those details before we move full force ahead on the SAT.  I do know the word "scholarship" is used differently here.  I know a kid with a "full ride scholarship" to Princeton.  And I was like what?? Princeton doesn't do merit scholarships.  Well, the "full ride scholarship" was financial aid. So I really don't know what the agency has told the mom. 

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15 minutes ago, calbear said:

After reading the replies, I still would reiterate that she needs to be absolutely solid in algebra not just for the SAT but to have basic proficiency to survive college math classes. If she is being recruited, I am assuming she is going to a Division 1 school? Playing sports at this level is like working nearly a full-time job. I lived in a dorm at Cal with lots of athletes. One of my dormmates was softball player. It was absolutely brutal on them. One of the basketball players asked me to tutor him in math, but honestly, he was in way over his head. To me, there's a long game that needs to be solved for as well.

Yes, I agree. And will tell her this. 

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2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Humm.  I'm not sure I want to be involved in the scholarship piece. She is not paying me for that, she is paying a different agency.  However, I'll suggest she check on those details before we move full force ahead on the SAT.  I do know the word "scholarship" is used differently here.  I know a kid with a "full ride scholarship" to Princeton.  And I was like what?? Princeton doesn't do merit scholarships.  Well, the "full ride scholarship" was financial aid. So I really don't know what the agency has told the mom. 

I'd show her the link. Legally, schools can't surpass what their scholarship limits. It isn't like the can offer whatever they want to players.

Full scholarships are relatively rare in equivalency sports. An additional caveat is that there is a top limit of the number of athletes that can be awarded even a partial scholarship in an equivalency sport - this limit is referred to as the maximum number of counters.

If she doesn't have the full package....top grades, coursework, test scores, she us a long way from a unicorn.

sports scholarships are the last way I would hope to fund college. 

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16 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I thought these tests were curved.  If you got an easy one, the curve would be harsher. Show do you change by 250 points between exams based on easy/hard exams?!??!

 

He got used to the format and did faster. The 12## puts him at 88th percentile for that test date while the 15## puts him at 98th percentile.

What I mean is that it is so hard to predict whether the student would get an easy paper and end up having more points lost per wrong/unanswered or get a hard paper and get a higher score even with answering more questions wrong. Your NZ national exams are probably more consistent in quality.

I am surprised she covered so little algebra though because Singapore math for 9th and 10th grade would have covered a substantial amount of the SAT math section unintentionally.

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t want to speak for her, but her kids are PG, so it’s a different ballgame altogether. 

 

He’s not 🙂

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I think a student with a good sense for math (which it sounds like this student has) could learn what she needs for the SAT in the timeframe given.

I'd be concerned if the student struggled with math in general, but it sounds like this kid picks up math quickly she just hasn't been exposed to the expected scope and sequence.

As a student I dealt with several different sets of math standards due to international moves. I'll be honest--I struggled with class work when we covered stuff I didn't have the expected prior exposure to. I did not however struggle with SAT math--it was mostly pretty basic and the flexible thinking I had developed served me well; I was good at problem solving based on what I knew and what I needed to figure out (especially knowing the answer was one of those in front of me on multiple choice questions) and wasn't relying on having done exactly that type of problem in class.

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30 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

He got used to the format and did faster. The 12## puts him at 88th percentile for that test date while the 15## puts him at 98th percentile.

What I mean is that it is so hard to predict whether the student would get an easy paper and end up having more points lost per wrong/unanswered or get a hard paper and get a higher score even with answering more questions wrong. Your NZ national exams are probably more consistent in quality.

I am surprised she covered so little algebra though because Singapore math for 9th and 10th grade would have covered a substantial amount of the SAT math section unintentionally.

 

He’s not 🙂

 

I thought you said they were Davidson scholars, which is a pretty elite designation.

My bad. 

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2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I thought you said they were Davidson scholars, which is a pretty elite designation.

 

The IQ cutoff for DYS is in the HG/EG range.

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4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

The IQ cutoff for DYS is in the HG/EG range.

 

Well still a very select group of kids. Very select.

All I am saying is experiences with academics and testing for a Davidson kid is hardly translatable to a “normal” kid. So such a drastic improvement may not be a possibility in such a short time for this particular child. I hope I am wrong, but I would set up my expectations accordingly. 

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Just to give you guys a feel for what 11th grade stats looks like.  They have to do 4 reports, this one, time series, regression, and an experiment.  Plus trig and Probability.  In 12th grade it is similar but upped - so bootstrapping, standard deviation, confidence intervals, etc in the reports.  Plus two quantatitive units: probability and distributions (normal, binomial, poisson, etc). This report would have been written in class, closed book over the period of 4 days.  So she can go home and do research if she wants but still has to do the actual writing in class. She would have to know how to use the statistical software to take randomized samples, graph it, and load everything into her paper.  All in class, working independently. 

To gain a top mark, you must be able to *explain* your data and interpret the conclusions with insight. They must be very careful about population vs sample.

You can do well without algebra, although it is needed in the two quantitative units, you can still do well without it.  Statistics is for kids not interested in the algebra2/ precalc/ calculus steam which is completed in 2 years (very intensive class!). She would have take Algebra  1.5 years ago and likely just passed it.  Because it is an integrated math course, she might have focused on geometry, statistics, and numeracy/problem solving in 10th grade.

Problem
I am interested in finding out if there is a significant difference in the weight of the
forward pack compared to the weight of the back line rugby players. Generally it seems
most of the players nowadays are much fitter and bigger, especially in the forward pack.
In saying this the lighter/smaller players generally play in the backline. For the purpose
of this investigation, I want to find out the answer to the following question:
“Is there a difference in the median weight (kg) of the forward rugby player compared to
the median weight (kg) of the backs rugby players from NZ and SA Rugby Central Team
2012/2013?”


I hypothesise that the forward players will be heavier than the backline. This is because
the forward pack are generally more solid players as they need to ‘pack the scrum’ hence
they will be bigger and heavier and more powerful. However for the backline, it is all
about speed, agility and elusiveness; so for backline it's not always about the size but
speed. In saying this, a typical example; Jonah Lomu was the heaviest back in the All
Blacks and he was most certainly elusive on the field. He was fast and he always made an
impact. So it will be interesting to see what results I get from my sample.
 

Plan

Using the data given to me from http://www.rugby-sidestep-central.com/rugby-
positions.html

I will use simple random sampling (SRS) method and select a sample size

of no less than 30. I have chosen to use SRS because this will ensure every member in the
population has an even chance of being selected. This will also ensure a non biased
sample which means I will not be selecting certain players due to say popularity or being
in a ‘certain rank’. The sample size of 30 (or more) will ensure that the sample is
representative of the population (rugby players in SA and NZ 2012/13) and it will also
help me make fairly accurate inference about the population as well as help me in
determining the population parameters.

Variables of Interest
Weight of rugby players in Kilograms
Forward and Back Rugby players
Population: NZ and SA Rugby players from Rugby Central 2012/2013
Population parameter: Median
Data was sourced from www.rugbycentral.com

Because rugby is such an impact game, I was more interested in finding the difference in
the weight rather than height as I think height is not important when it comes to the
rugby game. Maybe in certain position i.e. a lock, height would be important but
generally I think weight would be an explanatory variable that when it comes to position
played in the game of rugby. I am also going to use median as my population parameter
as mean is affected by the unusual data values i.e. really heavy and/or light players
which will distort my results and cause the inference about the population to be
inaccurate.

Data - graphs not uploading. but box and whiskers were used

Analysis
Median
In my sample the median weight of the forward players is 111.5kg whereas the median
weight of a back is 95.5kg. The difference of 20 kg is rather significant as this shows the
position is important i.e. forward pack are generally heavier than the backs. This is
consistent with the player profile where the heaviest weight was 136kg (Neemia Tialata
who was a prop) and the lightest player weighed 59kg and was a half back. Through my
findings, I suspect that there will always be a noticeable difference back in
population/rugby central 2012/2013 players for the median weight of forwards and
backs, not just because of the different positions in the game of rugby (hence their
varying abilities and attributes) but based on the huge difference in the sample medians
as well.


Middle 50%
In my sample the middle 50% of the data for the backline is between 90 - 99 kg and
between 106 - 116 kg for the forward pack. There is not much variation (9kg in the back
and 10 kg in the forward pack) in the weight of the players in each group. I would have
thought that generally there will be a significant difference in the middle 50% but that is
not the case for this sample. The distance between the LQ and the median is similar in
both the samples and the distance between the median and upper quartile is also similar
in the forward pack and the backline. This does not affect the inter-quartile range and
hence will not increase the width of the informal confidence interval. If there was a

significant distance from the quartiles to the median, the effect of increasing the inter-
quartile range will in turn increase the width of the confidence intervals.

I wonder if I would see this pattern back in the population; I think there could be a
significant difference back in the population. Personally I have noticed how rugby has
changed over time. Players are more into their fitness (almost like an obsession) so they
are much stronger and faster in order to make the right type of impact during the game.

So it does make sense for the weights to be very similar in each of the positions as
everyone would want to be efficient and effective in their position. However because of
the nature of the game, there will always be a significant difference in the weight
distribution between the backline and the forward pack and so I would expect to see
similar pattern persist back in the rugby central 2012/2013.

Shape
In my sample the data distribution for the forward players seems to be fairly symmetrical
(91 - 116 kg) whereas the backline is slightly skewed to the right, however this is not very
significant when you look at the overall shape. For the forwards most of the data is
consistent around 100 - 116 kg with a peak at around 112 kg whereas in the backline the
data seems to be grouped around 86 - 100 kg and has most of the players weigh at at 85
kg, 87 kg, 95 kg, 96 kg. This shows the weight for the backline is multimodal whereas for
the forward pack is unimodal at 112 kg. I imagine similar pattern would exist back in the
population (RESEARCH and explain WHY?? and also state if there are any GAPS and suggest
a reason as to why there may be gaps in the sample)

Spread/Shift (compare quartiles with median in both samples)
In my sample I can see that majority of the data is further up the scale for the forward
pack (106-116 kg) then the backs (90 - 99 kg). The LQ for the forward pack is much higher
(106 kg) than the UQ (99 kg) for the back line. This shows that 75% of the weight for the
backline is less than 25% of the weight for the forward pack. Once again reinforcing the
fact that there is a huge difference in the weight distribution of rugby players according
to their position i.e. forwards being heavier than the back line.

There also appears to be a bigger range in the backline weight (84 -114kg) compared to
the range in the pack (91 - 116kg). But looking at the data itself, it shows that the two
players (Taiasina-Tuifua and Craig Clark; 195cm and 200 cm respectively) who are 114kg
are also very tall. So this would explain the bigger range as well as the slight skew in the
data distribution. As a general rule tall people tend to be heavier and so the weight of
these two players will be proportionate to their height which makes perfect sense. I
would say that the data for the forward pack will most likely be normally distributed
back in the population as their weight appears to be more consistent according to the
sample but I suspect the weight of the back line could have similar variation (similar
pattern) as shown in my sample, back in rugby central 2012/2013.

Unusual Features 
In my sample there doesn’t appear to be any unusual/interesting features. As mentioned
before the 2 players in the back line who weigh 114kg are also very tall. There isn’t too
much of a skew in the data. Looking at the mean weight for the back line (95kg) is not
much of a difference when we compare it to the median (95.5kg) and similarly for the
forward pack. The lightest player in the forward pack is 91 kg which is 1 kg heavier than
the LQ for the back line. But if I were to sample again, I may get a player who could be
unusually heavier, especially in the forward pack i.e. Neemia Tialata weighing at a
whopping 136kg.

Informal Confidence Interval (ICI)
Forwards Backs
111.5 - 1.5 x (116-106) 46=109kg 95.5 - 1.5 x (99-90) 34=93kg
111.5 + 1.5 x (116-106) 46 =114kg 95.5 + 1.5 x (99-90) 34 =98kg
Based on my ICI the population median for the forward rugby players will be somewhere
between 109 kg and 114 kg at Rugby Central 2012/13
Based on my ICI, the population median for the backline rugby players will be somewhere
between 93 kg and 98 kg at Rugby Central 2012/13.

Conclusion
The purpose of this investigation was to find “if there is a difference in the median
weight of the forward pack compared to the median weight of the backs rugby players
from NZ and SA Rugby Central Team 2012/2013?”

I can be reasonably sure that the true population median will be contained within my
informal confidence intervals i.e. the population median weight for the forward rugby
players will be somewhere between 109 kg and 114 kg and the median weight for the
back line rugby players will be somewhere between 93 kg and 98 kg in the rugby central
2012/13. As these two ICI do not overlap, I can make a claim that there is a difference
in the median weight between the forward and back rugby players back in rugby central
2012/13 meaning that the weight of the forward rugby players tends to be more than the
weight of the backline.

If I were to repeat this process again, I would expect different results ( i.e. my sample
median, middle 50% etc will be different) however 9 out of 10 times, I can be confident
that the confidence intervals calculated with sample statistics will contain the population
median. I would expect the median weight of the forward rugby players to be greater
than the median weight of the backline. I do not think the shift in these samples is due to
the sampling variability but I think the shift will exist back in the population. This is due
to the nature of the game of rugby which requires strength in the forward pack hence
players will be stronger and powerful and in the back line the players will be lighter in
order to maneuver through the opposition and move the ball to the try line.

I am uncertain that this is the entire population as it seems to be a very small number of
rugby players It is possible that it is a small population but I suspect the data I have been
supplied with is a sample of a much larger population. It may be that if I had a larger
data set that I would get a different results. It could also have been better if I had used
stratified sampling as the players came from NZ and SA and due to difference in climate,
people and ability, I would expect there to be some difference in the weight of the
players. I cannot be certain that the sample that I have chosen has given a proportional
representation of rugby players from these two countries.. It would be important to
consider this as the geographical/international location may have considerable effect on
the weight a rugby player. For example, a SA players would be more leaner than the NZ
rugby players. NZ players tend to have more Pacific Island players and they naturally tend
to be bigger and hence weigh more. My investigation has certainly not taken the
geographical location into consideration.

We only had team players from NZ and SA and so the result of this investigation cannot
be simply inferred to the majority of the players around the world. Different countries
have different climate, diet, age and fitness/exercise regime. These are the factors
which have not been taken into account so for further investigation. I would also be
interested to see if there is there is a difference in the age of players.
My target audience who would be interested in the findings would be coaches, managers,
sponsors, jersey manufacturers (they will need to constantly keep up with the demand of
the players size, built in order to cater for their needs). School rugby management teams
could also be interested so as

Edited by lewelma
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8, I very much appreciate you comments on the "scholarships." I'll push the mom a bit. She is somewhat hard to talk to. 

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The other problem which is not talked about enough that 8 aludes to is that what is verbally offered to prospective recruits is often radically different than the actual written offer. Families often misunderstood what is being offered and what is actually guaranteed. Not downplaying her opportunity here...but go in with eyes wide open. 

This is a pretty good overview: https://usatodayhss.com/2017/everything-you-need-to-know-about-athletic-scholarships

And about full-ride: https://usatodayhss.com/2018/ncsa-what-is-a-full-ride-scholarship

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They must be going after the atheletic and academic scholarship, as it mentions the 1200 SAT in the article along with the 3.5 GPA.  I wonder what her other grades look like. GPA is hard to calculate out of the NZ system because national tests are normed so only about 12% of students get an excellence which would be like an A, and the harder classes are not weighted in any way. So an A in Drama is the same as an A in Calculus. I 

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I would give her a silent reading speed test and then a sample test for the reading, then work from there based on her reading speed and what types of questions she missed and what her current score is vs. the goal. 

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I'd say it's doable! But it's going to take a lot of work on her part, so she'll need to be motivated. 

One bonus about learning algebra at her age is that a kid's level of abstraction is a higher at this age. I'd assume one would be able to move from concrete to abstract a lot quicker than you would with a younger kid... 

I'd be curious how she does if she tries a test! I'm also curious what fraction of the problems can be solved with a very small number of methods. Last I checked, SAT math only got that hard, but I might be vastly underestimating here. 

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12 hours ago, lewelma said:

8, I'm assuming the recruiter knows about all this. NZ students seems to get full rides to USA schools quite often, just from my first hand knowledge. And in some pretty weird sports and at obscure schools.  I don't know diddly about any of this, but can bring it up with the mom.  She is paying an agency to handle this aspect of the process. 

 

First, when my DD was very young, K4 or K5 or First Grade, we knew of a boy in the school she was in (we are in Colombia) who was offered Sports Scholarships (Golf) at several universities in the USA. So, that certainly does happen.

Secondly, I am concerned, about the last sentence in the quotation above from the OP, which I have bolded. If someone is paying for services like that, that may indicate that this is less likely to happen for this student in NZ.  I see that as a possible warning sign?

The Recruiter is from an Agency she is paying?    If the school was paying the Recruiter, I wouldn't be writing this post.

If a university is paying someone to recruit athletes for them, that's fine. But if someone is paying, trying to get recruited, that seems less likely to happen.  I hope I am wrong about that.

 

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27 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

 

Secondly, I am concerned, about the last sentence in the quotation above from the OP, which I have bolded. If someone is paying for services like that, that may indicate that this is less likely to happen for this student in NZ.  I see that as a possible warning sign?

 

 

ASAIK which is really only rowing, it's very normal to hire someone to help an athlete package themselves and make sure their profile has been sent to all the relevant colleges. I'd also add that I do know a TX girl who got a full ride for rugby to one of the very few colleges where that's a varsity sport instead of a club. There are not many girl rugby players and there aren't many colleges where it's a scholarship sport so the it's not common but it does happen every once in a while.

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11 hours ago, calbear said:

The other problem which is not talked about enough that 8 aludes to is that what is verbally offered to prospective recruits is often radically different than the actual written offer. Families often misunderstood what is being offered and what is actually guaranteed. Not downplaying her opportunity here...but go in with eyes wide open. 

This is a pretty good overview: https://usatodayhss.com/2017/everything-you-need-to-know-about-athletic-scholarships

And about full-ride: https://usatodayhss.com/2018/ncsa-what-is-a-full-ride-scholarship

 

15 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

First, when my DD was very young, K4 or K5 or First Grade, we knew of a boy in the school she was in (we are in Colombia) who was offered Sports Scholarships (Golf) at several universities in the USA. So, that certainly does happen.

Secondly, I am concerned, about the last sentence in the quotation above from the OP, which I have bolded. If someone is paying for services like that, that may indicate that this is less likely to happen for this student in NZ.  I see that as a possible warning sign?

The Recruiter is from an Agency she is paying?    If the school was paying the Recruiter, I wouldn't be writing this post.

If a university is paying someone to recruit athletes for them, that's fine. But if someone is paying, trying to get recruited, that seems less likely to happen.  I hope I am wrong about that.

 

One of the kids friend’s went through this process recently for one of the headcount sports listed in the articles.  She was on an elite team in the UK but didn’t end up with a place through the agency she used.  Not sure on the details or what went wrong as it wasn’t really our business to ask.  But I do know her friend who graduated the year before used the same agency and has a full ride through them.   So it does happen and it does apparently need to be through an agency,  fwiw I thought the agency she used simply was a format for her to display her interest and stats to many recruiters.  

Fwiw I think Lewelma’s student can do this.  I am not sure how well the practice exam will go because the format is going to be so different for her but think she can adapt.

  From a UK perspective anyone doing the Statistic’s A level is a good math student and probably hasn’t been exposed to that much algebra. Pretty much what I expected when I read the original post. Not sure about NZ but not that many continue math in any format after GCSE level in the UK.  I think the harder algebra topics are rolled into the first year of the A level work for those on the Calculus track as they need to happen for those students someplace.  I remember looking at a different friend’s review work right before her GCSE and remember thinking it was lighter on algebra than I anticipated.  Friend got an A Star  so obviously she was well prepared.  At the same time my kids were doing their Sat Subjects etc and she was fascinated with those exams as the format was so much different.  I actually think the format might be hard for this student to adapt to so glad she has a tutor (Lewelma) to guide her.  This is a math able girl with a plan being made for her and I am assuming a pretty strong motivation to succeed in this exam.    

 

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7 hours ago, mumto2 said:

 

  From a UK perspective anyone doing the Statistic’s A level is a good math student and probably hasn’t been exposed to that much algebra. Pretty much what I expected when I read the original post. Not sure about NZ but not that many continue math in any format after GCSE level in the UK.  I think the harder algebra topics are rolled into the first year of the A level work for those on the Calculus track as they need to happen for those students someplace.  I remember looking at a different friend’s review work right before her GCSE and remember thinking it was lighter on algebra than I anticipated.  Friend got an A Star  so obviously she was well prepared.  At the same time my kids were doing their Sat Subjects etc and she was fascinated with those exams as the format was so much different.  I actually think the format might be hard for this student to adapt to so glad she has a tutor (Lewelma) to guide her.  This is a math able girl with a plan being made for her and I am assuming a pretty strong motivation to succeed in this exam.    

 

I would agree with all this.  She is not bad at math, it is just a different system.

But the exam is a *very* strange format.  I don't think any students here would have ever seen a scantron, or a multichoice exam.  ALL exams here are essay based.  For my ds's 12th grade chemistry exam, he had 8 full page essays to write in 3 hours.  The multichoice is going to be very confusing on first go. I'm seeing her in 30 minutes, and will walk her through it.  

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8 hours ago, Lanny said:

 

First, when my DD was very young, K4 or K5 or First Grade, we knew of a boy in the school she was in (we are in Colombia) who was offered Sports Scholarships (Golf) at several universities in the USA. So, that certainly does happen.

Secondly, I am concerned, about the last sentence in the quotation above from the OP, which I have bolded. If someone is paying for services like that, that may indicate that this is less likely to happen for this student in NZ.  I see that as a possible warning sign?

The Recruiter is from an Agency she is paying?    If the school was paying the Recruiter, I wouldn't be writing this post.

If a university is paying someone to recruit athletes for them, that's fine. But if someone is paying, trying to get recruited, that seems less likely to happen.  I hope I am wrong about that.

 

I hear what you are say, but for the 2 kids I know with american sports scholarships, they all had an agency helping them.  The american application process is *very* confusing for foreigners. And the systems don't mesh quite right.  So the agency will be helping her to look the best she can look.  They were the ones who suggested dropping to 4 classes so she could get the SATs done. This is a very unusual step but still allowed. So they are helping her strategically. I'm not sure these scholarships that NZers get are the same kind of thing as Division 1 Sports Scholarship.  They are too common here for that. 

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22 hours ago, lewelma said:

You don't think she can raise her math score by 200 points in 10 months? Given that it is not an issue of being a slow learner, it is an issue of having studied a foreign curriculum.

My older boy raised his score by 100 points just on CR in less than 4 weeks. Basically about 30 hours.

I really need to know, as I've never done this before. 10 months seems a long time to me, and she has dropped a class to make room to learn algebra. She is very quick learner in math.

 

I guess I'm going to be an outlier here. Given that she is a bright kid who just hasn't followed our typical progression, I think she's going to be fine. Now, had she tried algebra earlier and failed, I might be concerned, but my understanding is just that she's taken a different path. Personally, I don't think it will take a bright student that long to pick up what she needs to game get a sufficient score on the test (1200 isn't THAT high.) The SAT was originally more a test of IQ than of content. Although they've monkeyed with it a bit, it's still leans that way. So long as she's good at pattern recognition, I think she can figure it out.

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I just finished with her.  And she could NOT believe the test format.  She was like wait, I have to fill in these circles?!??!?! What is multiple choice?!?!?  They expect to test my writing and reading skills with A,B,C,D?!?!?! Why would the national American university entrance exam be this very strange thing?  That is when I told her it was made by a private company. She *loved* that.  Haha.  You guys should have been a fly on the wall. It was soooooo funny! 

 

Edited by lewelma
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1 hour ago, JoJosMom said:

 

I guess I'm going to be an outlier here. Given that she is a bright kid who just hasn't followed our typical progression, I think she's going to be fine. 

She is taking it tomorrow and I will see her again on Friday. At that point we will know our starting point. I warned her that I expected it to be under 1000, possibly by quite a bit (I mentioned both 900 and 700!). But because she has not grown up with this test from a cultural point of view, the numbers mean nothing to her, so she had no emotional response to numbers that low.  She did ask how many points each question was worth, which is when I showed her the conversion chart from raw to scaled score.  She laughed that it looked more complicated than the test!   

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53 minutes ago, maize said:

Did you tell her to guess on questions she isn't sure about?

Yes. Will be interesting to see how she does on the writing/editing section as NZ does not really believe in grammar study and rules to English. They are more in the camp of language evolves, so if you are a native speaker, what you write *is* proper english.  So she doesn't think in terms of grammar when editing, nor does she know any rules, but rather uses intuition. So don't know how that section will go. 

I told her that she can gain 100 points just from test prep style work, but anything beyond that is going to be actual learning.

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23 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Yes. Will be interesting to see how she does on the writing/editing section as NZ does not really believe in grammar study and rules to English. They are more in the camp of language evolves, so if you are a native speaker, what you write *is* proper english.  So she doesn't think in terms of grammar when editing, nor does she know any rules, but rather uses intuition. So don't know how that section will go. 

I told her that she can gain 100 points just from test prep style work, but anything beyond that is going to be actual learning.

 

This causes me pain.

We need that little fainting guy back.

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10 minutes ago, JoJosMom said:

 

This causes me pain.

We need that little fainting guy back.

Back in the day (21 years ago) when I first came to NZ and was a secondary school teacher, I had to write reports for the kids.  All the reports for the school were routed through the English department for approval in writing/grammar/punctuation. So basically they proofread them all.  I had a few *heated* conversations about how their corrections were grammatically incorrect, and I had proof that I was right.  (I am a very good editor and use my grammar knowledge to do it. I did take 6 years of Latin in school.)  I was told in no uncertain terms that grammar had not been taught in NZ for a generation, and that language evolves.  They also were quite certain that if it sounded right to the English teachers, it was right regardless of antiquated rules. They were very confident in their worldview on this. 

This kid will not have been taught any grammar, nor would any of her teachers.

Edited by lewelma
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11 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

That might make parts of the SAT tricky. 

Seriously! We will see. Maybe her intuition is good.  crossing fingers.  

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34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Back in the day (21 years ago) when I first came to NZ and was a secondary school teacher, I had to write reports for the kids.  All the reports for the school were routed through the English department for approval in writing/grammar/punctuation. So basically they proofread them all.  I had a few *heated* conversations about how their corrections were grammatically incorrect, and I had proof that I was right.  (I am a very good editor and use my grammar knowledge to do it. I did take 6 years of Latin in school.)  I was told in no uncertain terms that grammar had not been taught in NZ for a generation, and that language evolves.  They also were quite certain that if it sounded right to the English teachers, it was right regardless of antiquated rules. They were very confident in their worldview on this. 

This kid will not have been taught any grammar, nor would any of her teachers.

I agree with the NZ point of view 100%, as would most linguists. I applaud this approach to language!

Does this student read much? If so her intuitive sense for standard English may be quite good.

I never studied English grammar past very basic knowledge of nouns/verbs/adverbs/adjectives in elementary school. I did however read voraciously. My verbal SAT scores were excellent.

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49 minutes ago, JoJosMom said:

 

This causes me pain.

We need that little fainting guy back.

This is the mainstream position of the vast majority of linguistics experts. While I think learning mechanics is super useful and necessary (when you write, good mechanics are a gift you give your reader), I'm always surprised when people are shocked by this. It's also the way that many mainstream writing programs teach. Begin with your voice.

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1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Yes. Will be interesting to see how she does on the writing/editing section as NZ does not really believe in grammar study and rules to English. They are more in the camp of language evolves, so if you are a native speaker, what you write *is* proper english. 

Wow, because, at least in the US, that is so not true!  

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47 minutes ago, lewelma said:

 

(Can't get rid of that quote box)

Since I really enjoy linguistics I went on a bunny trail hunt and found this description of some aspects of New Zealand English:

(PDF)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/resources/publications/nzej-backissues/2007-laurie-bauer.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjfnIGcivHfAhUl2IMKHSXvBggQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw26WZQhvdF8HYJ_8YJMhtKt

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21 minutes ago, maize said:

I agree with the NZ point of view 100%, as would most linguists.

How much student writing have you seen?  I'm talking about adult students--upper division undergrad and graduate students in the humanities/social sciences.  Students routinely do things in writing that they would never do in speaking, things that they themselves would consider to be completely wrong.

Edited by EKS
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5 hours ago, lewelma said:

I would agree with all this.  She is not bad at math, it is just a different system.

But the exam is a *very* strange format.  I don't think any students here would have ever seen a scantron, or a multichoice exam.  ALL exams here are essay based.  For my ds's 12th grade chemistry exam, he had 8 full page essays to write in 3 hours.  The multichoice is going to be very confusing on first go. I'm seeing her in 30 minutes, and will walk her through it.  

She sounds bright, and I think she will adapt very quickly to the test format. We never used any homeschool materials that included worksheets or multiple choice type questions. And before he took the PSAT completely cold in tenth grade, my son had only taken two standardized tests before, in third and fifth grades. He scored high enough to meet the National Merit cutoff for our state.

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Because ALL NZ exams are essay based, she will have done way way more writing than most American students.  My guess is that her writing skill is good from an American point of view and she will just have to figure out how to answer the very odd questions on the writing portion of the SAT exam. I'm guessing she will bomb this portion of the exam first time around because the format is just so strange to her.

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10 minutes ago, EKS said:

How much student writing have you seen?  I'm talking about adult students--upper division undergrad and graduate students in the humanities/social sciences.  Students routinely do things in writing that they would never do in speaking, things that they themselves would consider to be completely wrong.

I've seen a TON of student writing as a classroom teacher and sometimes tutor. I still agree with that position. I might add for all you shocked folks... this is actually the foundation of Brave Writer, one of the most popular homeschool writing programs. I could write a lot more on this (at least, I could if I didn't have to go get a kid from theater tech) but I honestly am shocked that so many people here are this appalled. As always, things in the US are a bit all over the place, but this is not unknown in the US.

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Deleted because of double post.

Edited by Lanny
Deleted because of double post

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OP way down the road, before she takes the SAT exam, she needs to get (from the testing center) the answer sheet and hopefully a test booklet. She needs to "bubble in" her data. Before she does that, she needs to get an additional email address that she will only use for testing and school purposes. 

In 2018, there were approximately 2 million students who took the SAT in the USA and about 1.9 million who took the ACT.  Prior to that, more students took the ACT, but now many schools are giving the SAT to all of their students in class.

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35 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I honestly am shocked that so many people here are this appalled.

Haha. This *is* a classical board.  🙂 

But I will say that my older ds has always been a keen reader and did not have trouble with the test even though his grammar knowledge is pretty iffy.  There were about 5 specific rules that he felt he needed to learn for the SAT, and he only missed one question on the writing section.  However, he had read things like the Economist and Scientific American for all of highschool, so had extensive experience with high level writing styles.  I'm not sure what this kid's reading background is.  

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44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I've seen a TON of student writing as a classroom teacher and sometimes tutor. I still agree with that position. I might add for all you shocked folks... this is actually the foundation of Brave Writer, one of the most popular homeschool writing programs. I could write a lot more on this (at least, I could if I didn't have to go get a kid from theater tech) but I honestly am shocked that so many people here are this appalled. As always, things in the US are a bit all over the place, but this is not unknown in the US.

 

I think you missed the part about BEGIN with voice. As in, start. Then fix the mechanics. You do Brave Writer a grave disservice by implying that their program ignores mechanics; they don't.

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57 minutes ago, maize said:

Since I really enjoy linguistics I went on a bunny trail hunt and found this description of some aspects of New Zealand English:

(PDF)

Thanks for this. I enjoyed it very much.  Some of the items are endemic even in the city, some of them I have never heard. Woman as plural is the one that always catches me.  NZers also don't use 'the' for certain nouns like hospital. "He went to hospital" is standard here.

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5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Thanks for this. I enjoyed it very much.  Some of the items are endemic even in the city, some of them I have never heard. Woman as plural is the one that always catches me.  NZers also don't use 'the' for certain nouns like hospital. "He went to hospital" is standard here.

Saying to hospital and in hospital is also the norm in England and Australia, I think we North Americans are the outliers (I believe Canadian usage is like U.S. usage on this one?)

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1 hour ago, maize said:

I agree with the NZ point of view 100%, as would most linguists. I applaud this approach to language!

Does this student read much? If so her intuitive sense for standard English may be quite good.

I never studied English grammar past very basic knowledge of nouns/verbs/adverbs/adjectives in elementary school. I did however read voraciously. My verbal SAT scores were excellent.

Same. LSAT too. English is not even my first language, and it was learned via what I guess you’d call whole language approach. I’m sure my own kid will fail the thing, but I’m not teaching grammar rules I don’t believe in learning. 

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