Sonlight Question

[wehave8]

Sonlight History Question (6-10 grade levels):

Does Sonlight use complete books, or do they use PORTIONS of many books?

How do they make history 'flow'?  Do they use a spine?

Pam

[MerryAtHope]

They use complete books. They use a spine and have you also read historical fiction and biographies that tie in with the time period. (More biographies in upper levels). HTH!

[wehave8]

2 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

They use complete books. They use a spine and have you also read historical fiction and biographies that tie in with the time period. (More biographies in upper levels). HTH!

Yes, an no.  :)

Since they do, it makes my decision harder.  I had a core guide someone had given me from a few years ago, but I've passed it on since then.  I still hear so many people liking SL.  I am trying to plan ahead for next year.  Our 2 olders are doing Constitutional Literacy this year and the youngest is doing geography.  I am on the fence about doing texts (Notgrass) or Lit. based History next year.  The 2 lit. based I'm considering are SL or BP.

Pam

[Lori D.]

On 1/4/2019 at 5:10 PM, wehave8 said:

Yes, an no.  🙂

Since they do, it makes my decision harder.  I had a core guide someone had given me from a few years ago, but I've passed it on since then.  I still hear so many people liking SL.  I am trying to plan ahead for next year.  Our 2 olders are doing Constitutional Literacy this year and the youngest is doing geography.  I am on the fence about doing texts (Notgrass) or Lit. based History next year.  The 2 lit. based I'm considering are SL or BP.

Just a thought, but why not do both? You could use Notgrass as your "spine"/main text, and then pull engaging books from the Sonlight lists or Biblioplan lists to supplement. 🙂

Another option for the high school years that combines Notgrass AND "living book" approach is My Father's World (MFW) high school. They take the Notgrass World History and spread it over 9th and 10th grades [and then take the Notgrass Exploring America and spread it out over 11th and 12th grades ETA: they use BJU for American History in grades 11-12]*, adding terrific books in each year to flesh it out. I've heard great things about the teacher guide and the instruction in Writing/Composition provided in the MFW high school programs.

Sidenote about SL that is totally JMO: I personally feel that the best Sonlight cores are core B through core H (basically grade 1-7), and high school is where Sonlight gets weak. At least when I looked at the SL high school cores years back, theywere VERY odd in the choice of books -- some books that were grade 4-6 level, mixed with books that were very mature and at a late high school level. And sssooooo maaannnnyyyy books to try and get through in a school year, meaning we would have had to race through them rather than have time to dig deep and discuss.

BEST of luck with your middle school/high school History & Lit studies! Warmest regards, Lori D.


ETA - Jan. 16 2019
Thank you so much cbollin, for gently correcting me about MFW's high school history spine resources! Much appreciated! (:D

Edited January 17, 2019 by Lori D.

[wehave8]

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Just a thought, but why not do both? You could use Notgrass as your "spine"/main text, and then pull engaging books from the Sonlight lists or Biblioplan lists to supplement. 🙂

Another option for the high school years that combines Notgrass AND "living book" approach is My Father's World (MFW) high school. They take the Notgrass World History and spread it over 9th and 10th grades, and then take the Notgrass Exploring America and spread it out over 11th and 12th grades, adding terrific books in each year to flesh it out. I've heard great things about the teacher guide and the instruction in Writing/Composition provided in the MFW high school programs.

Sidenote about SL that is totally JMO: I personally feel that the best Sonlight cores are core B through core H (basically grade 1-7), and high school is where Sonlight gets weak. At least when I looked at the SL high school cores years back, theywere VERY odd in the choice of books -- some books that were grade 4-6 level, mixed with books that were very mature and at a late high school level. And sssooooo maaannnnyyyy books to try and get through in a school year, meaning we would have had to race through them rather than have time to dig deep and discuss.

BEST of luck with your middle school/high school History & Lit studies! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks

I think SL is out.  I can't see us doing MFW.  I will be discouraged by all of the writing and other subjects in their lesson plan that we might be too weak in to do. I would be torn between wht I want to do and the whole plan of MFW.

I am really feeling it is a toss up between BP and Notgrass.  I think my only question now is... If you do a 4 year history rotation plan, when do you fit gov./civics/geog. in?  I know Notgrass and BP have map work, but BP doesn't do government.  But we are doing Constitutional Literacy this year. Just thinking out loud.

Pam

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, wehave8 said:

...I can't see us doing MFW.  I will be discouraged by all of the writing and other subjects in their lesson plan that we might be too weak in to do. I would be torn between wht I want to do and the whole plan of MFW... 

...I am really feeling it is a toss up between BP and Notgrass...

As with any program, you can tweak the assignments to fit your students -- shorten the length of the assignments, or only pick a few assignments to do and schedule over a longer time frame, for example. Or drop out the writing entirely and outsource writing to a local tutor or an online class. Or purchase a writing program that is a good fit for the students and go with that. Writing does not *have* to always connect with the other school subjects. 😉 

Notgrass is set up to be a 3-credit program (1 credit each for History, Bible, and English/Literature). Notgrass assignments are a lot of the "go research this or that and write about it" variety, without any teaching support about how to research or write (or a grading rubric for the parent-teacher). I personally felt that the Bible and Lit. were way too weak to stand alone as full credits. It is set up so that 4 of the 5 weekly lessons are about the History time period, and the 5th lesson for the week is a Biblical worldview type of lesson that reflects on some topic or aspect from the History read earlier in the week; we found most of those to be interesting and to spark some discussion.

All that to say, you can just READ the History text and primary source document volumes, drop the Bible assignments and Literature portion, and then do your own thing as far as writing or projects for History, and pick your own resources for Literature and Bible. At least, that's what we did, and it worked for us. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

But, it sounds like you might prefer overall to NOT go with a "box" curriculum (SL, MFW, etc.), or a completely scheduled program (Notgrass), and would prefer to pick-and-choose resources from a list, like BP.
 

1 hour ago, wehave8 said:

...I think my only question now is... If you do a 4 year history rotation plan, when do you fit gov./civics/geog. in?  I know Notgrass and BP have map work, but BP doesn't do government.  But we are doing Constitutional Literacy this year. Just thinking out loud.

Doing a full 4-year chronological History cycle means you'll be doing more than 1 credit of Social Studies per year of high school, as Geography, Government, and Economics are all counted under the heading of Social Studies (or "Social Sciences").

What I see most people do who are doing a 4-year chronological History study in high school is to make sure they are including 1.0 credit of American History as well, since 1.0 credit of American History is frequently one of the required credits for admission to college. How I have seen people on these boards most frequently do that is by emphasizing American History in the Early Modern and Modern years of the cycle to end up with 5.0 credits of history (4.0 credits for the 4 years of World History + 1.0 credit for American History). So the year they are doing Early Modern World History, they also do the first half of American History (colonial through Civil War, for example), and then the year they are doing Modern World History, they also do the second half of American History.

I have also seen people who don't want to do additional Social Studies credits in high school condense the 4-year history rotation down into 2 years. Doing a lighter, faster History for 2 credits leaves them the remaining 2 years of high school to do 1 year of American History and 1 year to do Government & Civics. That comes out to a total of 4 credits of Social Studies.

If the family also wants Geography, then one of the years they decide to double up and do History + Geography, for a total of 5 credits of Social Studies. Another option is to just do Geography "lightly" and not for a credit -- just mixed in as it fits with the History throughout the years of high school. Or, do a year of Geography in 8th grade, before starting a 4-year History cycle in high school.
 

1 hour ago, wehave8 said:

...I think my only question now is... If you do a 4 year history rotation plan, when do you fit gov./civics/geog. in?  I know Notgrass and BP have map work, but BP doesn't do government.  But we are doing Constitutional Literacy this year. Just thinking out loud.

Government is usually a 0.5 credit, but sometimes a full 1.0 credit. A typical Government course covers most of the following topics:
- types of governments
- US Constitution, Federalism
- Executive Branch - the President, the Bureauocracy, foreign policy
- Legislative Branch - Congress (Senate and House), how a bill becomes law
- Judicial Branch - Supreme Court, lower courts, process of trial by jury
- Interest Groups and Lobbying
- Political Parties
- Voting
- Media and Public Opinion
- Citizenship / Civil Liberties / Civil Rights
- State and Local Government

Civics covers the rights, duties, and privileges of being a citizen, so that is the Government topics of how one becomes a citizen, and how one participates in government (i.e., voting). Typically Civics topics are covered in a Government course (see the list above).

I'm guessing your Constitutional Literacy course might be 0.5 credit? If so, then you could accrue another 0.5 credit using a textbook or program to cover the remaining topics, and have 1.0 credit of Government on your transcript.
 

 

Just my ramblings, but I think the thing to do is to sit down before 9th grade and roughly map out a high school plan of overall credits:
- required credits (what credits are required by your state for high school graduation + what credits are required for possible future college admission) 
- credits/courses that are important to you & your spouse for your students to accomplish in high school
- credits/courses of subjects that are of high interest to your student, or help the student towards possible future career

That way, as you move through the high school years, you can adjust your studies to fit changing needs, interests, and goals -- and not hit 12th grade and suddenly panic that you're missing something crucial.

In case it helps, here's a list of total credits to accomplish in high school that usually covers any required credits for high school graduation, plus keeps doors open for possible college admission, AND is flexible about how you accomplish them to allow for student interests and studies that a parent may want to see covered:

4 credits = English (usually 1/2 Writing + 1/2 Lit, but can also be Journalism, Creative Writing, etc.)
3-4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2 -- and many colleges require a 4th math above Alg. 2)
3-4 credits = Science, with labs (a few colleges require Biology, but most very flexible about the Natural Sciences)
2-4 credits = Social Studies ("Social Sciences")
   (very flexible: Hist., Geog., Gov'tCivics, Econ/Personal Finance, Philosophy/Worldviews, Political Sci/Current Events, Archeology, Anthropology, Sociology)
   (many colleges require Amer. Hist.; some colleges require World History or Geography, or 0.5 credit each of Gov't & Econ)
2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)
1 credit = Fine Arts (performance; creation of art; digital arts; or "appreciation" of art, music, film, or other)
4-8+ credits = Electives (examples: Health, PE, Computer, Logic, Bible/Religious Studies, Vocational-Tech, personal interest coursework, additional credits in Fine Arts, "Academic Electives" -- additional credits beyond the required # in the first 5 subjects above, etc.)
22+ credits = total
 

BEST of luck as you plan ahead for your Social Studies and select curricula! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[MerryAtHope]

14 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Sidenote about SL that is totally JMO: I personally feel that the best Sonlight cores are core B through core H (basically grade 1-7), and high school is where Sonlight gets weak. At least when I looked at the SL high school cores years back, theywere VERY odd in the choice of books -- some books that were grade 4-6 level, mixed with books that were very mature and at a late high school level. And sssooooo maaannnnyyyy books to try and get through in a school year, meaning we would have had to race through them rather than have time to dig deep and discuss.

 

I agree and disagree a bit! They certainly do include a lot of lower level books in the high school cores, but these books usually serve to offer a mental or emotional break after a really difficult book (academically or emotionally). I think there's plenty of meat to the high school levels (plenty of higher level books to read and discuss), but some of those easier books lighten the mood and help a lot with motivation. 

That said, I agree that in general they just have too many books in them for many people (though some avid readers manage to read all that and more!), and the only way I made their high school cores work was to be eclectic. D, E, and 100 were my favorites, and then the other lower level cores after that. But my view may be skewed because I often enjoy children's literature more, LOL! 

[MerryAtHope]

3 hours ago, wehave8 said:

I am really feeling it is a toss up between BP and Notgrass.  I think my only question now is... If you do a 4 year history rotation plan, when do you fit gov./civics/geog. in? 

 

My kids did two rotations through history instead of 3. They did a 3 year cycle, then 2 years of US and a year of Eastern Hemisphere, then another history cycle (ds took 3 years, dd took 4--she was younger and I had more time to spread things out). Then they also had time for a US history credit in high school, Government, and then a special interest subject (ds did Japanese history and dd did Psychology for a social studies credit.)

So--I guess it's about deciding whether that third full cycle is most important to you, or whether some flexibility to get in other coursework is more important. In high school you can also specialize more if you want--you don't always have to do overview history.

[Lori D.]

14 minutes ago, MerryAtHope said:

I agree and disagree a bit! They certainly do include a lot of lower level books in the high school cores, but these books usually serve to offer a mental or emotional break after a really difficult book (academically or emotionally). I think there's plenty of meat to the high school levels (plenty of higher level books to read and discuss), but some of those easier books lighten the mood and help a lot with motivation. 

Totally understand and agree with you about the importance of not having all of the books be intense and difficult, and the need for "breaks". I just am quibbling about a number of SL's choice of specific books as not being the best for accomplishing that rhythm. 😉 (Specifically thinking of core 300.)
 

... That said, I agree that in general they just have too many books in them for many people...

👍

13 minutes ago, MerryAtHope said:

... But my view may be skewed because I often enjoy children's literature more, LOL!

My personal favorites as well (along with some of the YA titles). We were delighted to be exposed to a number of wonderful books that we wouldn't have known about if it hadn't been for the SL booklists. 🙂

[MerryAtHope]

7 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Totally understand and agree with you about the importance of not having all of the books be intense and difficult, and the need for "breaks". I just am quibbling about a number of SL's choice of specific books as not being the best for accomplishing that rhythm. 😉 (Specifically thinking of core 300.)

 

Ah, that makes sense, there are a lot of easier books in that level (I really didn't do 300--used a different spine & only did 9 books from SL's list, some we had already read previously--that particular year I went more "off-roading" with curriculum than usual to do British Lit instead of tying lit to history!)