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Not wanting to risk it


Scarlett
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I haven’t read all the replies, but I have theorized the exact same thing. I do not expect I would ever marry again, no matter if I might meet someone I love again. 

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6 hours ago, Paige said:

If something were to happen to DH, I really doubt I'd remarry. 

I would be concerned for my kids. I'd have a hard time even dating while there were young kids in the home and my youngest is a baby so it's going to be a while.

I don't particularly enjoy sleeping with a snorer. And who's to know you're getting a snorer until you are really spending time sleeping with someone? I like my own bed and my own space.

I wouldn't want to give up my power and control. Marriage is about giving up power as me becomes we. With kids, I don't want to do that with someone who's not their dad. 

I don't want to deal with any of the financial implications with inheritance and pensions. 

The bolded is exactly it for me. And this continues even after the kids have grown up and moved on. 

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9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So what about a marriage is so much more terrifying than a relationship?

The legal ramifications, and it isn't easy in this day and age to extract oneself from a bad relationship once the paperwork is signed. It is pretty darn expensive, and way more emotionally damaging because the process through the courts is fairly awful, some states being worse than others.

My MIL has a boyfriend. But she's an 82 year old widower with a complicated trust for her estate, and if she married, the whole thing would have to be re-done. Michigan is a community property state, and they each both have three grown children and herd of grandchildren. His kids would have a cow if he remarried. We also said no. Because marriage has legal responsibilities that come with it, and we aren't going to be involved in decision making with his grown kids from another state whom we have never met. Our lives are complicated enough without that! Both of their health is failing so easily something could happen to one of them before all of the complicated financial and legal mess was sorted out, and that would leave all six of us in a whale of a disaster on top of which one of his kids has indicated he'd really like to end up with MIL's house. Of course he does. He's a recovering drug addict, and we live six miles away. His father has even indicated how it would be nice for us to look after the grown son! UHM NO!

So they hang out, the travel together, they go to church together, and they genuinely do love each other, but their lives remain legally, formally separate. That's the way it should be.

My uncle had a long term relationship for 30 years before he died in his sixties. They both had complicated retirement pensions and plans, both had complicated estates just from a young age (my uncle was fostering a niece and nephew and in order to marry her and keep the children, there hoops to jump with the state as well). The children were pretty unstable over what happened to them so until they were grown, he kept his relationship with her on the down low. She loved uncle very much and was quite happy with the situation. After the kids grew up, they had settled into a happy, content situation that met both of their needs. Neither one had a religious reason to marry, and they both really liked their own houses, neither wanted to give the other place up permanently. It was easy to continue the status quo. We all came to love her, and she was at his side when he passed away.

 

My grandmother re-married after my grandfather died. The man was nice and everything, that wasn't the issue. The marriage complicated her survivor's benefits on my grandfather's pensions, messed up her new husband's benefits which he had been receiving based on his previous wife's pension, caused a six month mess at social security which admittedly was more incompetency in the department and not so much about the marriage but still would never have happened if they had remained single, stuck her with responsibility that she thought his kids would handle but their attitude was "you married him, he's your problem now", etc. She took a huge hit financially, the guy only lived two years, and then my aunt and father figure had to dive in and straighten it all out. Total mess!

And especially where there are kids involved....just because the parent really loves someone else, it doesn't naturally equal their getting married as being a good move for the kids.

I can think of a lot of scenarios that would make the legal entanglements of marriage undesirable for many, legitimate reasons, yet the relationship is beneficial to both parties.

Maybe if we did it like France, it would be easier. They have the Pacs. (Not sure if I spelled that right.) Is a layer of marriage or civil union/civil solidarity that allows the couple involved to easily dissolve with a 50/50 split of marital assets. It has some of the responsibilities of marriage, but allows financial independence and easy separation while still having the tax benefits that France gives to married couples. Fully married is the next option, and it is a legally binding contract that is more involved than here in the USA. It is governed by matriomonial regimes. Here is a description of them. There are four matrimonial ‘regimes’ ( régime matrimonial😞 two communal regimes ( régime communautaire) and two ‘separatist’ regimes ( régime séparatiste). Under a communauté universelle, all assets and all debts are jointly owned; under a communauté réduite aux acquêts, each spouse retains ownership of assets acquired before marriage (and assets acquired after marriage in the form of inheritances and gifts), while all assets acquired jointly after marriage are jointly owned. Under a séparation de biens, nothing is jointly owned; and under a participation aux acquêts, nothing is jointly owned but if the marriage is dissolved, assets acquired during the marriage are divided equally.

The above would kind of spell things out ahead of time, and make the financial arrangements standardized.

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7 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m not willing to judge the guy when this is the only information we have:

 

A few quick sentences in a casual conversation between a store employee and a customer doesn’t really tell us much at all.

Honestly, I doubt I would have paid any attention to it if I had been there, and if I did think anything about it, I probably would have simply assumed the guy had his reasons and let it go at that. Why would I care whether or not some guy at the store wants to get married?

Sigh.  Obviously I am not judging the man.  The conversation was strange enough that the employee started talking to me about it after the customer left.  So I don't care either how a stranger is living his life.....it was just an incident in my day that got me to thinking about the entire topic.  

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I do understand the desire to protect one's assets. Heck my house is still in my name (only) 8 years after our wedding.  I have a life insurance policy that still lists my parents as beneficiaries.  I was just thinking that all of these complications people are seeking to avoid by not marrying often times aren't really avoided.  If you are in a long term serious relationship how do you not have contact with and interactions with each other's children grown or otherwise?  If you move a partner in with you, they usually have some sort of domestic right to not be kicked out at a moments notice. 

Just things I think about while driving around running errands like I was doing yesterday.

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On a side note - @Scarlett  I am the same way you are.  I'd hear a conversation or see something on TV or hear some gossip and I do think about things people do that I wouldn't do myself and I very much am interested in reasons as to why they do it.  I think the whole human behaviour thing is totally fascinating!!

Sometimes my husband gets utterly annoyed when I would pause a movie for half an hour just so I can pick his brain on a particular question or situation that just happened in the movie.

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Just now, SereneHome said:

On a side note - @Scarlett  I am the same way you are.  I'd hear a conversation or see something on TV or hear some gossip and I do think about things people do that I wouldn't do myself and I very much am interested in reasons as to why they do it.  I think the whole human behaviour thing is totally fascinating!!

Sometimes my husband gets utterly annoyed when I would pause a movie for half an hour just so I can pick his brain on a particular question or situation that just happened in the movie.

LOL, we have this problem with the boy majoring in Anthropology. He always thinks of some human behavior thing to discuss. He is usually bouncing with excitement when he gets out of the movie theater because he just can't wait to gush about some aspect and have a discussion.

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2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

On a side note - @Scarlett  I am the same way you are.  I'd hear a conversation or see something on TV or hear some gossip and I do think about things people do that I wouldn't do myself and I very much am interested in reasons as to why they do it.  I think the whole human behaviour thing is totally fascinating!!

Sometimes my husband gets utterly annoyed when I would pause a movie for half an hour just so I can pick his brain on a particular question or situation that just happened in the movie.

Yes.  🙂  Thank you for understanding.  I am very interested in human behavior.  

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28 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I do understand the desire to protect one's assets. Heck my house is still in my name (only) 8 years after our wedding.  I have a life insurance policy that still lists my parents as beneficiaries.  I was just thinking that all of these complications people are seeking to avoid by not marrying often times aren't really avoided.  If you are in a long term serious relationship how do you not have contact with and interactions with each other's children grown or otherwise?  If you move a partner in with you, they usually have some sort of domestic right to not be kicked out at a moments notice. 

Just things I think about while driving around running errands like I was doing yesterday.

In terms of assets, living together generally does not give one a legal right to your assets. So that is one aspect. Another is that many people have estates that are more complicated than just whose name is on the house. Retirement benefits, pensions, insurance policies that are not so straight forward, overseas holdings, etc. In a community property state, marriage makes those assets marital assets. Living together does not. And in some states, the laws really do not favor live in domestic partners and they can be evicted pretty easily.

In my uncle's case, he and his long term girlfriend were VERY private and kept their relationship quite low key in terms of the niece and nephew he fostered while they were young. People do that. They really do limit contact if that is their priority. He had babysitters, and they went out. They sometimes spent a week or so of summer vacation with my grandparents, so he and his girlfriend would take a cruise or whatever. 

If something happened to DH and I decided to date again, I would not have the new person around my adult kids at all, and that might be something I would choose to maintain for many, many years. But if I married that person, permanently shared a domicile, etc. it would be a lot tougher.

In MIL's case, we have never met her boyfriend's children. They have no desire to meet us. The twain shall not meet apparently. That's fine. That is their choice, and we don't view them as family or anything so have no vested emotional interest in them either. With young children it might not be easy, but it absolutely can be done.

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14 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

On a side note - @Scarlett  I am the same way you are.  I'd hear a conversation or see something on TV or hear some gossip and I do think about things people do that I wouldn't do myself and I very much am interested in reasons as to why they do it.  I think the whole human behaviour thing is totally fascinating!!

Sometimes my husband gets utterly annoyed when I would pause a movie for half an hour just so I can pick his brain on a particular question or situation that just happened in the movie.

On NYE at the grocery store, I heard a man talking on the phone and he said, "I'll help with all that. I just want to see you" in such a sad, plaintive tone it hurt my heart. He looked so distressed and he just slumped as he listened to the reply.

Based on that, I don't think the reply was, "Hey, sure! Come on over!"

: -(

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1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

On NYE at the grocery store, I heard a man talking on the phone and he said, "I'll help with all that. I just want to see you" in such a sad, plaintive tone it hurt my heart. He looked so distressed and he just slumped as he listened to the reply.

Based on that, I don't think the reply was, "Hey, sure! Come on over!"

: -(

Oh how sad.  See that would have had me wondering about it for days.  A girlfriend?  An adult kid?  A parent?  

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There's nothing wrong with Scarlett asking the question, in my opinion. She heard something, it struck a chord with her, and she asked for people's thinking on it. Just. As. People. Do. Here. All. The. Time.

I have a couple of family members who had long-term relationships after a divorce. For one, it was for religious reasons. The relationship following the divorce lasted until the death of parties. We're talking decades. To the extended family, we treated the partner as a spouse. The other family member eventually married the partner after many years. It took a long time before that person was mentally ready to fully leave the original marriage behind.

 

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23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

LOL, we have this problem with the boy majoring in Anthropology. He always thinks of some human behavior thing to discuss. He is usually bouncing with excitement when he gets out of the movie theater because he just can't wait to gush about some aspect and have a discussion.

I so badly wanted to major in Psychology.  But I couldn't see myself doing a lot of schooling after getting Bachelor's degree.  So, I went for accounting.  But my house is filled with books on human behaviour. 

But I think nothing can beat real life encounters!

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Even if all the legalities were tidy and sewn up, there are complications with adult children who are now “step-siblings” with total strangers. 

My grandmother remarried when she was around 80, to her church minister whom she had loved for ages from a distance. (In my armchair observation, this was really her true love and not my grandfather, but I’m sure no inpropriety ever occurred.) He truly was an absolute gem of a man and he lived several years beyond her eventual death at 96. But his daughter and my mom had intense “sibling rivalry” over him, especially after my grandmother’s death. The daughter saw my mother as meddlesome, while my mother saw his daughter as unconnected and uninterested in physically being there. It seemed like my mom was here saying, “Oh, that daughter of him! She just wants to throw money at him form a hundred miles away and think that solves all problems!” While the daughter seemed to think, “Oh, that daughter of hers! Thinks she’s Miss Exemplary Christian stopping by every day to cut his meat like he’s a moron!” 

And as a side note, I don’t know what ever became of a lot of the things my grandmother owned. Once she died, they were at “his” house and I personally didn’t feel I had a right to come loot his house for memorbilia from my grandmother. So some stuff - who knows what became of it. 

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34 minutes ago, Quill said:

Even if all the legalities were tidy and sewn up, there are complications with adult children who are now “step-siblings” with total strangers. 

My grandmother remarried when she was around 80, to her church minister whom she had loved for ages from a distance. (In my armchair observation, this was really her true love and not my grandfather, but I’m sure no inpropriety ever occurred.) He truly was an absolute gem of a man and he lived several years beyond her eventual death at 96. But his daughter and my mom had intense “sibling rivalry” over him, especially after my grandmother’s death. The daughter saw my mother as meddlesome, while my mother saw his daughter as unconnected and uninterested in physically being there. It seemed like my mom was here saying, “Oh, that daughter of him! She just wants to throw money at him form a hundred miles away and think that solves all problems!” While the daughter seemed to think, “Oh, that daughter of hers! Thinks she’s Miss Exemplary Christian stopping by every day to cut his meat like he’s a moron!” 

And as a side note, I don’t know what ever became of a lot of the things my grandmother owned. Once she died, they were at “his” house and I personally didn’t feel I had a right to come loot his house for memorbilia from my grandmother. So some stuff - who knows what became of it. 

I feel super fortunate to have the step family I do.  My step sister and I trust each other 100%.  I trust my own brother barely at all.  I would never keep something of her dad's that she wanted nor would she keep something of my mom's .  Our parents are the ones who are causing us grief by not having a will.  My step brother is a ward of the state and does not have his mind so any inheritance he gets could cause my sister a lot of grief in regards to his care.  

Edited to add--My step sister and I were not strangers when our parents married though.  Our families had been friends for 25 years at that time and now over 40.  So I am sure it might be different if we were strangers.

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Sigh.  Obviously I am not judging the man.  The conversation was strange enough that the employee started talking to me about it after the customer left.  So I don't care either how a stranger is living his life.....it was just an incident in my day that got me to thinking about the entire topic.  

 

I don’t think there is anything wrong with starting a thread to talk about something you found strange. I’m just trying to figure out what was so strange or unusual about what the guy said. You seem to be reading a lot more into it than I am. 

He said, “No, she is a keeper, a great gal, but I just can’t risk that again.”

All it sounds like to me is that he has been burned in the past, so even though he really likes the woman he’s currently seeing, he’s not interested in getting married again, at least not now. 

What’s the big deal about that? It sounds perfectly normal to me that a person doesn’t want to get married. Do you think everyone should want to be married?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I’m genuinely puzzled about this and I’m trying to understand your point of view.

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1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

 

But I think nothing can beat real life encounters!

QFT.  People are very interesting to me.  I hear some great stories from our customers.  I always think I will remember details but I don't.  For instance one older man was telling me all about how he played minor league base ball in his youth but they barely made any money.  It was so interesting! I could write a book of people's stories.

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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t think there is anything wrong with starting a thread to talk about something you found strange. I’m just trying to figure out what was so strange or unusual about what the guy said. You seem to be reading a lot more into it than I am. 

He said, “No, she is a keeper, a great gal, but I just can’t risk that again.”

All it sounds like to me is that he has been burned in the past, so even though he really likes the woman he’s currently seeing, he’s not interested in getting married again, at least not now. 

What’s the big deal about that? It sounds perfectly normal to me that a person doesn’t want to get married. Do you think everyone should want to be married?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I’m genuinely puzzled about this and I’m trying to understand your point of view.

It is not perfectly normal in my world for a man to gush about how great a woman he has but then shake his head and say he won't marry her.  

I do not think everyone should want to be married.  The part I was musing about is being involved in a long term romantic relationship and not wanting to marry.  I know a lot of single people who plan to never marry.  But they aren't involved with anyone. So as is normal there are different 'worlds' represented on this board.

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12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is exactly the situation that perplexes me.  It is as if he thinks the institution of marriage is the problem instead of the two awful first wives.  

I know people who strongly believe in a concept of Christian marriage but view that totally separate of the legal institution of marriage in our society.

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1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

On a side note - @Scarlett  I am the same way you are.  I'd hear a conversation or see something on TV or hear some gossip and I do think about things people do that I wouldn't do myself and I very much am interested in reasons as to why they do it.  I think the whole human behaviour thing is totally fascinating!!

Sometimes my husband gets utterly annoyed when I would pause a movie for half an hour just so I can pick his brain on a particular question or situation that just happened in the movie.

My mother was a floral designer.  One day at the flower shop a man ordered a beautiful bouquet to be delivered to a woman with a card that read, "Is it springtime yet?" All the employees discussed what that could possibly mean and the backstory behind it for months.

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My sister remarried. Her 2nd husband sexually assaulted her 11 year old daughter. She has made it very clear she won't marry again until her youngest kid (now 9) is an adult, at the very soonest.

My mom remarried. Her 2nd husband developed a pain pill addiction problem, she found out after they'd married that he'd forgotten to mention spending several years in Federal prison for playing stupid with guns in his early 20's, and those two things landed him in Federal prison and her a single parent of two young kids, in her 60's. She's so done with marriage you could stick a fork in her.

Our girlfriend was married once, was divorced five years after the marriage really ended, and has no intention of remarrying. I don't think she would even marry DH if the possibility opened up, and they've been together (this time around, they also dated before either of them married anyone) for 11 years now. Her marriage traumatized her in certain ways (even though her ex is a good guy was a good father to her sons, they weren't good together) that make her cling to her independence, on paper at least. 

When I was young and stupid (18, maybe 19) I married a friend (not one I knew well, mind you) to be his "beard" because he wanted to join the Marines and it was DADT. We figured the extra $$ from BAH until he left for boot camp (I was in the Navy at the time) would be nice, too. Now-DH (then friend) sat me down and explained to me just how stupid this was, and just what level of legal entanglement I'd gotten myself into with a guy who was, really, just an acquaintance. Fortunately, a quickie dissolution (not sure if it was annulment or technically divorce) was easily obtained in Florida! It lasted 3 months all told, and we came out a little ahead because the BAH was more than the marriage license and dissolution fees. That taught me "reasons why not to get married." I doubt I would marry again after DH unless minor kids or some other major financial reason TOGETHER with a desire for life partnership was in the picture, and certainly wouldn't do so on impulse.

Some people never learn, though. Ex-stepdad married a chick he met in rehab just a couple of months after he was released from the Federal re-entry halfway house. She's over 20 years younger than him (He's in his 50's, she's barely 30, younger than one of my foster sisters he raised from young teen to adult with my mom), and he had only barely introduced her to his kids (my youngest sister and young brother, ages 11 and 9) as a "friend" on one occasion beforehand.

 

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33 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I feel super fortunate to have the step family I do.  My step sister and I trust each other 100%.  I trust my own brother barely at all.  I would never keep something of her dad's that she wanted nor would she keep something of my mom's .  Our parents are the ones who are causing us grief by not having a will.  My step brother is a ward of the state and does not have his mind so any inheritance he gets could cause my sister a lot of grief in regards to his care.  

Edited to add--My step sister and I were not strangers when our parents married though.  Our families had been friends for 25 years at that time and now over 40.  So I am sure it might be different if we were strangers.

That is really great, that all of you have such good relationships with the steps. And Scarlett, you are a good-hearted person with a strong set of personal ethics. Unfortunately, many families do not have steps that act this way with each other and work to develop healthy relationships.

All I can say is that when my brother passes, it is going to be NIGHTMARE. He remarried and adopted a child as well as had a biological child with his second wife, but his three sons with his first wife were much older and not raised with either of the girls. The girls expect their brothers to help them be responsible for their mother when the time comes, but their mother was literally the "evil stepmother" of fairy tale fame (and they were in their late teens so there was no way they were going to overlook some of her behavior), and made it quite known to the boys that she wasn't their mother, didn't give a crap about them, and wanted nothing to do with them. So guess what. The boys want nothing to do with her. None of them spend any holidays together because of this, and when the boys have gotten married, step mother was not invited because her behavior towards their mother could not be trusted, and this made the little sister mad so they refused to attend though they were teens and were given the option of attending with their dad. It's a mess. We BARELY made it through my father figure's funeral due to the family dynamics. I thought my sister and I would lose our minds trying to keep the crazy away from our mom.

I can so easily see this kind of family dynamic being the reason that many would choose to be in a long term relationship that is more casual, definitely not headed towards marriage, keeping everything clearly separated even if they are devoted to the other person.

 

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2 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My mother was a floral designer.  One day at the flower shop a man ordered a beautiful bouquet to be delivered to a woman with a card that read, "Is it springtime yet?" All the employees discussed what that could possibly mean and the backstory behind it for months.

That is probably a cute story...alas we shall never know.  Unless that woman is on this board and reveals herself.  Hmmm.

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I don't understand why people think of what parents have as belonging to their kids.  It doesn't. I highly encourage people to give what they want to go to certain people before they die.  That's really the only way to be sure it actually happens.

But the whole not wanting to become a caregiver in my 70s? I totally get that.

The whole not wanting to rearrange my life and finances and wills?  I get that too.

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6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I know people who strongly believe in a concept of Christian marriage but view that totally separate of the legal institution of marriage in our society.

Very much so. And this is the way it is in France. If a couple goes to the priest or pastor or whatever and has a religious ceremony, it means nothing legally. Only certain public officials can marry anyone. But if the couple has their civil ceremony, it doesn't make their marriage blessed religiously at least not in the Catholic Church. So for those that have a religious perspective on marriage, they go through the legal hoops of a legal marriage, and then through the hoops of a religious one. I actually prefer this. Different denominations have different perspectives and teaching so instead of blurring the lines between the state and the church, I prefer total separation with the state defining and conducting legal marriage, and each church defining religious marriage for their members and conducting that. No confusion between the two.

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

Even if all the legalities were tidy and sewn up, there are complications with adult children who are now “step-siblings” with total strangers. 

My grandmother remarried when she was around 80, to her church minister whom she had loved for ages from a distance. (In my armchair observation, this was really her true love and not my grandfather, but I’m sure no inpropriety ever occurred.) He truly was an absolute gem of a man and he lived several years beyond her eventual death at 96. But his daughter and my mom had intense “sibling rivalry” over him, especially after my grandmother’s death. The daughter saw my mother as meddlesome, while my mother saw his daughter as unconnected and uninterested in physically being there. It seemed like my mom was here saying, “Oh, that daughter of him! She just wants to throw money at him form a hundred miles away and think that solves all problems!” While the daughter seemed to think, “Oh, that daughter of hers! Thinks she’s Miss Exemplary Christian stopping by every day to cut his meat like he’s a moron!” 

And as a side note, I don’t know what ever became of a lot of the things my grandmother owned. Once she died, they were at “his” house and I personally didn’t feel I had a right to come loot his house for memorbilia from my grandmother. So some stuff - who knows what became of it. 

 

This reminds me, my maternal grandfather's 3rd wife (who was younger than one of his daughters) left a bunch of family pictures, mostly of his 2nd wife and all the kids (my mom and aunt, Grandma B's kids who Grandpa helped raise) out in the rain shortly after he died.

Of course, her OWN kids didn't even like her, so...that was really just the sort of awful person she was. They were separated for several years, with Grandpa living in a little house he used to rent out while she lived in his nice one...I'm pretty sure he didn't divorce her out of religious sense of obligation to the marriage (his first marriage ended with Grandma divorcing him, and he was widowed with the second wife), and she didn't divorce him because she was a gold digger.

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12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So what about a marriage is so much more terrifying than a relationship?

There are may legal issues that can arise in marriage that one is not exposed to in a relationship.  In some states, a spouse can take out debt that you are totally unaware of and you are 100% responsible for that debt.  You can be 100% responsible for taxes on a spouse's income you are unaware of.  

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51 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I feel super fortunate to have the step family I do.  My step sister and I trust each other 100%.  I trust my own brother barely at all.  I would never keep something of her dad's that she wanted nor would she keep something of my mom's .  Our parents are the ones who are causing us grief by not having a will.  My step brother is a ward of the state and does not have his mind so any inheritance he gets could cause my sister a lot of grief in regards to his care.  

Edited to add--My step sister and I were not strangers when our parents married though.  Our families had been friends for 25 years at that time and now over 40.  So I am sure it might be different if we were strangers.

 

My step mom is a peach. And frankly, my bio sisters and I couldn't care less if my dad leaves everything to her. I don't know my stepsisters well, but they put up with my dad a lot more than I or my bio sisters do, and I adore them for it. 

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15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I do not think everyone should want to be married.  The part I was musing about is being involved in a long term romantic relationship and not wanting to marry.  I know a lot of single people who plan to never marry.  But they aren't involved with anyone. So as is normal there are different 'worlds' represented on this board.

The bolded is perfectly normal in my "world". I know people in committed relationships for decades, without marriage. But they are not of your particular religion.

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I guess so much is proximity.  My dad lived states away. He married twice and had several nearly live in situations too.  I cared in the sense of morality and mild confusion why he wanted to but otherwise it didn't matter to me.  Not my circus.  Not my monkeys. I never thought any of them were going to care about taking care of him, it was obvious they wanted money and equally obvious he didn't mind that.  But if he would have preferred them to care for him during his last days? That would have been fine by me bc that would have been his prerogative.  It would have been nice if some crappy new wife could have paid for his burial and inherited his debt mess and dealt with the lawyers from hell.  I don't think my stance would have changed if he lived locally though.

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12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, I get that, but this man was talking about this woman AS IF he loved her and all that...but he wont marry her.  

Maybe the question should be why would you allow yourself to be that woman. 

Hearing a couple of sentences of someone's conversation, I would not be drawing these conclusions.  What baffles me is why Person A would ask "are you getting married?", especially in a public situation where other people are overhearing. 

Person B may have been surprised by the question and needed a quick answer.  Maybe he is planning on proposing this weekend and needed an answer so that the word didn't get out.  Maybe Person B really wants to get married and the woman does not want to marry him.  Maybe the couple has discussed marriage but doesn't want family members to know yet.   

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You're kind of hitting on the reason, but not really viewing it as logical I think. Because really, it isn't. But it's still the reason. Someone who is burned very badly in a marriage will often say never again. Is this a problem with marriage or the people they married? The people of course, in 99% of situations. But saying they won't get married again makes them feel like they can prevent being burned the same way. Even if it doesn't make sense. 

I will tell you, I had a dream marriage. My husband was nearly perfect and we were so GOOD together. Then he was diagnosed with a terminal illness 5 years ago. As he declined I took care of him. I took care of him through the very end. I can not express the ways it broke me to be front row center to my big, strong man wasting away, and forgetting his life, little by little. I had thought before that I would never remarry - because he set the bar so very high. But after end of life care there is another layer. Marriage vows are HEAVY. For better or for worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part. I have done it all and I am not sure I would survive it again. 

That does not mean that one day, when my kids are much bigger, I would not be open to a long-term, committed relationship. And the question a logical brain would ask would be that if we were together a long time, and loved each other, and a partner got sick, would I not still take care of him. And of course I probably would. But knowing that rationally doesn't actually change my stance. And I am generally a logical person vs. an emotional one. But sometimes something wounds you in such a fundamental way that reason takes a backseat. Thinking about taking marriage vows again would give me a full-fledged panic attack. 

If you're looking for logical reasons people do the things they do, you will look forever. 😜 Humans are, all in all, an extremely illogical group.

Edited by Sk8ermaiden
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4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Hearing a couple of sentences of someone's conversation, I would not be drawing these conclusions.  What baffles me is why Person A would ask "are you getting married?", especially in a public situation where other people are overhearing. 

Person B may have been surprised by the question and needed a quick answer.  Maybe he is planning on proposing this weekend and needed an answer so that the word didn't get out.  Maybe Person B really wants to get married and the woman does not want to marry him.  Maybe the couple has discussed marriage but doesn't want family members to know yet.   

Well sure.  But the clerk clearly knew the man very well.  And he already knew the guy didn't want to get married again.  He knew he had two terrible marriages that ended in divorce.  I don't really know exactly what the clerk said to him first because I only started listening (I was standing 2 feet from him in a check out line) when the customer started talking about what a wonderful girlfriend he had and how great she is all around.  

And I really am not drawing any conclusions.  I repeated what I heard and was just thinking about it all afternoon.  

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4 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

You're kind of hitting on the reason, but not really viewing it as logical I think. Because really, it isn't. But it's still the reason. Someone who is burned very badly in a marriage will often say never again. Is this a problem with marriage or the people they married? The people of course, in 99% of situations. But saying they won't get married again makes them feel like they can prevent being burned the same way. Even if it doesn't make sense. 

I will tell you, I had a dream marriage. My husband was nearly perfect and we were so GOOD together. Then he was diagnosed with a terminal illness 5 years ago. As he declined I took care of him. I took care of him through the very end. I can not express the ways it broke me to be front row center to my big, strong man wasting away, and forgetting his life, little by little. I had thought before that I would never remarry - because he set the bar so very high. But after end of life care there is another layer. Marriage vows are HEAVY. For better or for worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part. I have done it all and I am not sure I would survive it again. 

That does not mean that one day, when my kids are much bigger, I would not be open to a long-term, committed relationship. And the question a logical brain would ask would be that if we were together a long time, and loved each other, and a partner got sick, would I not still take care of him. And of course I probably would. But knowing that rationally doesn't actually change my stance. And I am generally a logical person vs. an emotional one. But sometimes something wounds you in such a fundamental way that reason takes a backseat. Thinking about taking marriage vows again would give me a full-fledged panic attack. 

If you looking for logical reasons people do the things they do, you will look forever. 😜 Humans are, all in all, an extremely illogical group.

I am so sorry for your loss.  

And your post is very very good at explaining what it is I was looking to understand.  Thank you.

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11 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Hearing a couple of sentences of someone's conversation, I would not be drawing these conclusions.  What baffles me is why Person A would ask "are you getting married?", especially in a public situation where other people are overhearing. 

Person B may have been surprised by the question and needed a quick answer.  Maybe he is planning on proposing this weekend and needed an answer so that the word didn't get out.  Maybe Person B really wants to get married and the woman does not want to marry him.  Maybe the couple has discussed marriage but doesn't want family members to know yet.   

IF person B had just said to person A:

"She's the love of my life. I can't imagine ever being without her."

Then I could imagine Person B asking about marriage. 

Is not like person B asked about an*l in public where anyone could hear.

Edited by unsinkable
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I kind of understand Scarlett's question because, for me, all the reasons I would not want to remarry are mostly the same reasons I would not want to deal with any type of long term relationship at all if my current marriage were to end for whatever reason. I get there are additional financial and legal things that come with marriage but those things, again just IMO, are just as serious or just as big as any issues that come with a long-term-committed-but-not-willing-to-marry situation.

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2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I kind of understand Scarlett's question because, for me, all the reasons I would not want to remarry are mostly the same reasons I would not want to deal with any type of long term relationship at all if my current marriage were to end for whatever reason. I get there are additional financial and legal things that come with marriage but those things, again just IMO, are just as serious or just as big as any issues that come with a long-term-committed-but-not-willing-to-marry situation.

 

Sure.  If both parties are equally well off, it is probably less of an issue.  But if one would be better off financially if they married - that might be a reason they want to get married in a committed relationship.  The better off one might genuinely want to help the other and feel marriage is the least difficult way to do so.  Some might call that gold digging, but that doesn't mean that's the motive. And really if family is going to get upset about the gold digger possibility, they are going to be upset whether it's done in or outside of marriage.  I wouldn't care either way, but maybe if I'd had wealth to get used to it'd be harder to part with it. lol

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4 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I’m going to guess that what stands out to the OP is that the man is having a sexual relationship and says there is no plan to marry. It bothers some Christians, I think the OP’s religion is playing a major part in her pondering what she overheard.

If that’s the case, then perhaps we should get into a debate on living in sin, going to hell for sex outside of marriage, etc. Would definitely be more of an interesting thread!

You would be wrong.  That wasn't really my question at all.

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5 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I’m going to guess that what stands out to the OP is that the man is having a sexual relationship and says there is no plan to marry. It bothers some Christians, I think the OP’s religion is playing a major part in her pondering what she overheard.

If that’s the case, then perhaps we should get into a debate on living in sin, going to hell for sex outside of marriage, etc. Would definitely be more of an interesting thread!

She has a name. It's Scarlett.

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My biggest reason now would be financial as our kids are young adults. Dh and I are good with money and are on the same page about spending and saving. If something happened to dh now, I would be fine financially for the rest of my life, could still help our kids if needed, and could leave them an inheritance.

I could be in a long term relationship with someone who wasn’t as good with his money since I could still control my own money, but it would be very difficult for me to trust someone else with my money, and marriage entails financial entanglement legally. Getting married might mean eventually I would not be fine financially, and that is too much insecurity for me. I’ve read too many horror stories about the financial disasters of divorce. 

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1 minute ago, livetoread said:

My biggest reason now would be financial as our kids are young adults. Dh and I are good with money and are on the same page about spending and saving. If something happened to dh now, I would be fine financially for the rest of my life, could still help our kids if needed, and could leave them an inheritance.

I could be in a long term relationship with someone who wasn’t as good with his money since I could still control my own money, but it would be very difficult for me to trust someone else with my money, and marriage entails financial entanglement legally. Getting married might mean eventually I would not be fine financially, and that is too much insecurity for me. I’ve read too many horror stories about the financial disasters of divorce. 

It really doesn't have to be entangled.  You just don't mix things together.

 

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1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Sure.  If both parties are equally well off, it is probably less of an issue.  But if one would be better off financially if they married - that might be a reason they want to get married in a committed relationship.  The better off one might genuinely want to help the other and feel marriage is the least difficult way to do so.  Some might call that gold digging, but that doesn't mean that's the motive. And really if family is going to get upset about the gold digger possibility, they are going to be upset whether it's done in or outside of marriage.  I wouldn't care either way, but maybe if I'd had wealth to get used to it'd be harder to part with it. lol

Right, but I'm just saying that financial and legal issues are going to be a concern either way, maybe slightly less so than if someone doesn't get legally married, but for me the reasons of not being in a long-term-live-in relationship (having another adult in my kids' lives is the HUGE one) are the same practically and emotionally and in all other ways if we get married or not. So I understand the question of, "If you're going to have this long term relationship with someone you love, why would you consider marriage to be the point where you draw the line?" For me, 99% of the issues that are present in a marriage are present in a long-term relationship. I don't care if someone wants to get married or not, I just think it's a little bit of denial to think that not getting married is some kind of protection against being burned again.

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4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The legal ramifications, and it isn't easy in this day and age to extract oneself from a bad relationship once the paperwork is signed. It is pretty darn expensive, and way more emotionally damaging because the process through the courts is fairly awful, some states being worse than others.

My MIL has a boyfriend. But she's an 82 year old widower with a complicated trust for her estate, and if she married, the whole thing would have to be re-done. Michigan is a community property state, and they each both have three grown children and herd of grandchildren. His kids would have a cow if he remarried. We also said no. Because marriage has legal responsibilities that come with it, and we aren't going to be involved in decision making with his grown kids from another state whom we have never met. Our lives are complicated enough without that! Both of their health is failing so easily something could happen to one of them before all of the complicated financial and legal mess was sorted out, and that would leave all six of us in a whale of a disaster on top of which one of his kids has indicated he'd really like to end up with MIL's house. Of course he does. He's a recovering drug addict, and we live six miles away. His father has even indicated how it would be nice for us to look after the grown son! UHM NO!

So they hang out, the travel together, they go to church together, and they genuinely do love each other, but their lives remain legally, formally separate. That's the way it should be.

My uncle had a long term relationship for 30 years before he died in his sixties. They both had complicated retirement pensions and plans, both had complicated estates just from a young age (my uncle was fostering a niece and nephew and in order to marry her and keep the children, there hoops to jump with the state as well). The children were pretty unstable over what happened to them so until they were grown, he kept his relationship with her on the down low. She loved uncle very much and was quite happy with the situation. After the kids grew up, they had settled into a happy, content situation that met both of their needs. Neither one had a religious reason to marry, and they both really liked their own houses, neither wanted to give the other place up permanently. It was easy to continue the status quo. We all came to love her, and she was at his side when he passed away.

 

My grandmother re-married after my grandfather died. The man was nice and everything, that wasn't the issue. The marriage complicated her survivor's benefits on my grandfather's pensions, messed up her new husband's benefits which he had been receiving based on his previous wife's pension, caused a six month mess at social security which admittedly was more incompetency in the department and not so much about the marriage but still would never have happened if they had remained single, stuck her with responsibility that she thought his kids would handle but their attitude was "you married him, he's your problem now", etc. She took a huge hit financially, the guy only lived two years, and then my aunt and father figure had to dive in and straighten it all out. Total mess!

And especially where there are kids involved....just because the parent really loves someone else, it doesn't naturally equal their getting married as being a good move for the kids.

I can think of a lot of scenarios that would make the legal entanglements of marriage undesirable for many, legitimate reasons, yet the relationship is beneficial to both parties.

Maybe if we did it like France, it would be easier. They have the Pacs. (Not sure if I spelled that right.) Is a layer of marriage or civil union/civil solidarity that allows the couple involved to easily dissolve with a 50/50 split of marital assets. It has some of the responsibilities of marriage, but allows financial independence and easy separation while still having the tax benefits that France gives to married couples. Fully married is the next option, and it is a legally binding contract that is more involved than here in the USA. It is governed by matriomonial regimes. Here is a description of them. There are four matrimonial ‘regimes’ ( régime matrimonial😞 two communal regimes ( régime communautaire) and two ‘separatist’ regimes ( régime séparatiste). Under a communauté universelle, all assets and all debts are jointly owned; under a communauté réduite aux acquêts, each spouse retains ownership of assets acquired before marriage (and assets acquired after marriage in the form of inheritances and gifts), while all assets acquired jointly after marriage are jointly owned. Under a séparation de biens, nothing is jointly owned; and under a participation aux acquêts, nothing is jointly owned but if the marriage is dissolved, assets acquired during the marriage are divided equally.

The above would kind of spell things out ahead of time, and make the financial arrangements standardized.

Wow, if I was your MIL, I'd probably not date again. I remember you wrote that you FIL was gay and kept it a secret until he was older then started having affairs outside of marriage with men.

 

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I think often this sort of thing is not part of a real thought process.  It can be almost a sort of superstitious attitude - like, "things are going well now.  When I married, things went to pot.  So I am just not going to mess with it."  Not that even that is really thought out, but it's just a kind of feeling of not wanting to mess with something.

Now, I am thinking of a case where the people are living together etc.  It might also be that the person has decided not to do that, and any relationship is more like a dating thing, and they both maintain their own household and such.  I think that can be something that works well - they get on, care for each other, they can do things together and have companionship for concerts or walks or whatever.  But essentially, they are single.  I think for someone who realises that marriage is not something they are good at, that can be a logical approach.  My step fathers father took that approach after his wife died - he had no desire to remarry, but he still wanted a female friend to do things with.

But for the people who are living together - I think in reality they are fooling themselves if they think they are not becoming entangled emotionally, financially, and so on.  It isn't necessarily simpler to sort those things out just because there is no marriage.  IN many places there are all kinds of obligations even if they are just living together.

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4 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Right, but I'm just saying that financial and legal issues are going to be a concern either way, maybe slightly less so than if someone doesn't get legally married, but for me the reasons of not being in a long-term-live-in relationship (having another adult in my kids' lives is the HUGE one) are the same practically and emotionally and in all other ways if we get married or not. So I understand the question of, "If you're going to have this long term relationship with someone you love, why would you consider marriage to be the point where you draw the line?" For me, 99% of the issues that are present in a marriage are present in a long-term relationship. I don't care if someone wants to get married or not, I just think it's a little bit of denial to think that not getting married is some kind of protection against being burned again.

Yes  exactly! 

I do think Sk8ermaiden above explained it well though....and that it isn't as logical as it is emotional

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56 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Wow, if I was your MIL, I'd probably not date again. I remember you wrote that you FIL was gay and kept it a secret until he was older then started having affairs outside of marriage with men.

 

Yes, so I think there is an emotional element at play here in why she has a boyfriend at 82 and in failing health. But, I've also never been in her situation either so I can't be sure I'm sussing out the situation or not. So hard to know. I just suspect that the issues within the first marriage has something to do with the landscape of the current relationship.

 

ETA: and yes, if it were me, I would have sworn off men, LOL!

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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You would be wrong.  That wasn't really my question at all.

 

I have been thinking about this, and I think the reason we seem to be disagreeing might be because we are looking at the same conversation from two different angles. I’m picturing the guy and his girlfriend agreeing to be in a relationship without getting married, whereas I think maybe you are looking at it as the guy stringing the girlfriend along without telling her he never plans to marry her.

If that’s what the guy is doing, I would agree that he is wrong. If he never wants to get married again and he thinks she might want to marry at some point, he owes to to her to tell her the truth. If he tells her and she goes along with it, while secretly assuming she will get him to change his mind, it’s her own fault if she ends up disappointed.

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