Struggling with being left out

[AimeeM]

23 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Op, I’m sorry you’re feeling hurt. 

I wonder if such things are a result of our age segregated society? It annoys me when young people can’t see the contributions that older people have given to their Iives. 

I absolutely see the value of their contributions — but I never would have thought it necessary (for even only the sake of etiquette) to invite my parents’ friends and dh’s parents’ friends to our wedding — unless we were also close to them and considered them friends or family. Had we done so, the guest list would have been, well, insane. 

[Katy]

I was a bride like that. I didn't understand how hurt some people from DH's hometown and home church would be because I'd never met any of them.  I still hear comments about people being hurt by this years later. I chose the place I wanted the reception and built the guest list off that, it never would have occurred to me to invite everyone who watched him grow up. I couldn't even invite all of my first cousins, let alone all of the family friends.  I wanted a small formal wedding, not the cake and punch reception for 2000 that DH's town expected.

On behalf of the thoughtless bride, I apologize.

[Scarlett]

Reading along.....culture is a strange thing,  I think we have to respect it and work with it. But that requires parents of brides and grooms to guide and advice,,,,,and for bride and groom it listen. 

[mom@shiloh]

On 1/1/2019 at 9:19 PM, PrincessMommy said:

thanks everyone for your help in talking me through this... I appreciate the understanding as well as the different perspectives.

I do suspect it is cluelessness on the Bride's part.  And it is like Kung-fu asked, her mom isn't really in a position to be giving advice.  In addition, mom and her husband secretly eloped, so she's never even planned a wedding.  

I probably won't say anything, honestly.  The bride and her mom both have lots of issues with anxiety and I wouldn't want to add to that. 

I think that's very gracious of you. Hugs.

[Bluegoat]

15 hours ago, Katy said:

I was a bride like that. I didn't understand how hurt some people from DH's hometown and home church would be because I'd never met any of them.  I still hear comments about people being hurt by this years later. I chose the place I wanted the reception and built the guest list off that, it never would have occurred to me to invite everyone who watched him grow up. I couldn't even invite all of my first cousins, let alone all of the family friends.  I wanted a small formal wedding, not the cake and punch reception for 2000 that DH's town expected.

On behalf of the thoughtless bride, I apologize.

 

I've been thinking about this thread.  I think there really has been a change in the way people think about weddings.  It used to be they were more of a real community thing - there was really no question who would be invited - everyone was invited.  The wedding was a public event. Now, of course, there is a strong sense of a wedding as a private event, to the point where many don't really have any sense of it as public at all.  

I think the idea that there are people who we should invite, like those who have watched us grow up, friends of parents, etc, harken back somewhat to the sense of the wedding as a community event, even if the community is a tiny subset of the city or area you happen to live in.  

Maybe it's inevitable these two conceptions don't rub together all that well.

[Faith-manor]

47 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I've been thinking about this thread.  I think there really has been a change in the way people think about weddings.  It used to be they were more of a real community thing - there was really no question who would be invited - everyone was invited.  The wedding was a public event. Now, of course, there is a strong sense of a wedding as a private event, to the point where many don't really have any sense of it as public at all.  

I think the idea that there are people who we should invite, like those who have watched us grow up, friends of parents, etc, harken back somewhat to the sense of the wedding as a community event, even if the community is a tiny subset of the city or area you happen to live in.  

Maybe it's inevitable these two conceptions don't rub together all that well.

I agree, and some of it is I suspect due to practicalities. When I was a young woman getting married, my friends and I all came from homes with parents who were members of a church that would let us use the venue for free. This was really, really common. So you had a place that often had a big kitchen and fellowship hall and no rent or if there were fees, it was nominal.

That doesn't seem to be the case now. The logistics are just getting harder. Additionally, most couples are no longer local to their parents or the areas they grew up in so they don't have those connections. We have this global economy in which people move so many times in their careers, kids rarely getting jobs in their home towns when they grow up. So there is travel, and housing, and all kinds of complications to consider. I think that in the end, this often means that the couple opts for something small with a limited guest list. It's just easier. And I think that when one goes away to college or trade school, and then gets a job somewhere else, and moves around a lot, the idea of wedding as a public event out of sense of community is lost. We lead our lives so privately in these modern times that I think it becomes natural to then view weddings and often now even funerals as private affairs.

I have also read on other wedding threads that numerous parents say they will not be paying for weddings. If that is true but they still expect their children to hold weddings for the family, then they should expect that friends of parents will not be invited.

OP, I am very sorry you didn't get invited. I think it is very hard to be left out, but I wouldn't assume any kind of ill will on the part of the bride. You did mention she has some anxiety, and that would lead me to believe that she may very well be severely limiting the size of the guest list. I wish I had demanded that. My parents invited 350 people to my wedding and expected a traditional receiving line. I was entirely overwhelmed and exhausted by the end of that monstrosity and got accosted by so many people I barely new, that I hardly got to talk to my closest family members and friends at my own reception. I am just not a big party kind of person, personally.

[Katy]

The overwhelm and the fact that every wedding etiquette book I read recommended a small guest list is the reason I wanted to limit the list. In fact I wanted to just elope but DH put his foot down about that.  His siblings had huge weddings. One of his sisters told me she doesn't remember her wedding at all. She's not a drinker, she was just so overwhelmed all day she never absorbed the details.

I don't think I've ever seen a mention in an etiquette book that it's a responsibility to have a public event. But many people in small communities think that way.  I never knew that until I met DH and he went on a rant about the duty to walk in a graduation ceremony.

ETA:  The graduation rant was about the duty to celebrate your accomplishment not just with you, but with everyone who supported you along the way.  The whole community. I don't think anyone in my family ever walked in a ceremony.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Katy

[HS Mom in NC]

51 minutes ago, Katy said:

The overwhelm and the fact that every wedding etiquette book I read recommended a small guest list is the reason I wanted to limit the list. In fact I wanted to just elope but DH put his foot down about that.  His siblings had huge weddings. One of his sisters told me she doesn't remember her wedding at all. She's not a drinker, she was just so overwhelmed all day she never absorbed the details.

I don't think I've ever seen a mention in an etiquette book that it's a responsibility to have a public event. But many people in small communities think that way.  I never knew that until I met DH and he went on a rant about the duty to walk in a graduation ceremony.

ETA:  The graduation rant was about the duty to celebrate your accomplishment not just with you, but with everyone who supported you along the way.  The whole community. I don't think anyone in my family ever walked in a ceremony.

Yes, I think it's a small community, everyone's been here for generations, type place that is prone to that. My guess is it's waaay more common the Midwest and South, maybe with a sprinkling of New England.  Probably also in denominations prone to heavy traditionalism/ritualism like the OP.  I don't see this in the mainstream cosmopolitan place I lived with lots of people moving to and from other places with very different cultural norms.  Out West in larger cities (outside of Mormon culture) I think people are used to more variation in weddings so they're far less prone to make assumptions about what a bride should do, whereas in places I mentioned above there are more assumptions being made that every bride should be doing the same thing.

Many graduations in the greater PHX area had a certain number of tickets per graduate because the schools were so large with huge graduating classes there's no way more than a handful of people per graduate could fit in the stands. It's far more common among people I knew there to only have very close relatives attend: parents, spouses, maybe children.  I didn't attend my adult siblings' or their spouses' higher education graduations, because no one expected me to attend or them to invite me. We did all expect to be at the reception after, and I even hosted some of those. Same with regular recitals and sporting events-those are for parents and grandparents.   Plenty of people I know didn't walk at their own college graduations.

My daughters opted for small private wedding ceremonies with just the couple and officiant with a small reception for close friends and family because with all the divorces, remarriages, differing religious and non-religious views, mentally unstable mothers of the grooms (one probably undiagnosed autism and the other NPD), an unstable step-mother of the groom addicted to prescription meds, overbearing grandmother of the brides with a history of flying off the handle if anyone falls below her standards of morality in any way, same sex couples, extremely conservative/fundamentalist couples, and a bride with anxiety, each bride moving across the country-one just before and the other just after the weddings, and one bride with anxiety, yeah, community weddings would've been an absolute nightmare in our situation. I told them I'd back them up 100% on whatever they wanted to do and handed them each checks putting them in complete control. Daughter with anxiety even decided to have just our family and her closest friend out to a very nice restaurant for the reception so it could stay manageable. They planned a trip back to see his side and celebrate later.  I don't blame them.

[marbel]

43 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Yes, I think it's a small community, everyone's been here for generations, type place that is prone to that. My guess is it's waaay more common the Midwest and South, maybe with a sprinkling of New England.  Probably also in denominations prone to heavy traditionalism/ritualism like the OP.  I don't see this in the mainstream cosmopolitan place I lived with lots of people moving to and from other places with very different cultural norms.  Out West in larger cities (outside of Mormon culture) I think people are used to more variation in weddings so they're far less prone to make assumptions about what a bride should do, whereas in places I mentioned above there are more assumptions being made that every bride should be doing the same thing.

<snip>

I agree with this.  I spent most of my life on the west coast - SF Bay area, and Portland OR area - big areas with a lot of immigrants, not just from other countries but other states.  Then I moved to Pennsylvania, specifically to the Philadelphia area, where people are prone to spend their entire lives, go to the same grade school mom and dad went to, and buy grandma's house when she dies... boy what a difference in the expectations of How Things Are Supposed to be Done. I've come to realize that my relatives in Western NY (which I  left when I was a kid) are similar to the Philly people.  They just don't see that there can be other ways of doing things than the way they've always done them.  And by golly, they do it RIGHT!

I'm not dissing OP for being hurt.  It's all about expectations. My expectations for such things are... well, pretty much nonexistent, in part I'm sure because of where I grew up and lived for years as an adult.

[HS Mom in NC]

10 minutes ago, marbel said:

 

I'm not dissing OP for being hurt.  It's all about expectations.

Right. It's perfectly OK for her to want to attend the wedding and to be disappointed when she didn't get an invitation.  I'm sorry she didn't. 

[Bluegoat]

15 hours ago, Katy said:

The overwhelm and the fact that every wedding etiquette book I read recommended a small guest list is the reason I wanted to limit the list. In fact I wanted to just elope but DH put his foot down about that.  His siblings had huge weddings. One of his sisters told me she doesn't remember her wedding at all. She's not a drinker, she was just so overwhelmed all day she never absorbed the details.

I don't think I've ever seen a mention in an etiquette book that it's a responsibility to have a public event. But many people in small communities think that way.  I never knew that until I met DH and he went on a rant about the duty to walk in a graduation ceremony.

ETA:  The graduation rant was about the duty to celebrate your accomplishment not just with you, but with everyone who supported you along the way.  The whole community. I don't think anyone in my family ever walked in a ceremony.

 

Etiquette books are interesting - their recommendations tend to come out of a particular cultural background.  So on the one hand they are often based on a sort of WASP--y set of etiquette assumptions, one of which tends to be a certain amount of money to run an event.  Or that is true of the older ones like Miss Manners - I sometimes think the newer ones are basically commercial in some way, especially with how they deal with weddings.

But even that is very recent really. I think most traditional European cultures had the community wedding as a thing until fairly recently, and many non-European cultures still do. .  In a lot of ways, etiquette books started to come out when those traditions began to become more mixed up and difficult to manage due to changes in wealth and demographics. If I had to take a guess I'd say you might see that sort of need for instruction on etiquette among bourgeoisie Victorians, and then maybe again in the inter-war or post WWII period - when there was so much social change, people were moving out of their communities, and there was a lot more money around.

The increase in expectations for what a wedding looks like, and lack of social infrastructure that is available to use, is likely also a complicating mix in this. A heck of a lot of wedding etiquette books seem to imply that you decide how high end an event you want, and then choose a guest list to fit - there seems to be no sense that such an approach could mean having a lavish party but without most of the people who will be part of your married life.

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Etiquette books are interesting - their recommendations tend to come out of a particular cultural background.  So on the one hand they are often based on a sort of WASP--y set of etiquette assumptions, one of which tends to be a certain amount of money to run an event.  Or that is true of the older ones like Miss Manners - I sometimes think the newer ones are basically commercial in some way, especially with how they deal with weddings.

But even that is very recent really. I think most traditional European cultures had the community wedding as a thing until fairly recently, and many non-European cultures still do. .  In a lot of ways, etiquette books started to come out when those traditions began to become more mixed up and difficult to manage due to changes in wealth and demographics. If I had to take a guess I'd say you might see that sort of need for instruction on etiquette among bourgeoisie Victorians, and then maybe again in the inter-war or post WWII period - when there was so much social change, people were moving out of their communities, and there was a lot more money around.

The increase in expectations for what a wedding looks like, and lack of social infrastructure that is available to use, is likely also a complicating mix in this. A heck of a lot of wedding etiquette books seem to imply that you decide how high end an event you want, and then choose a guest list to fit - there seems to be no sense that such an approach could mean having a lavish party but without most of the people who will be part of your married life.

 

Well to be fair, none of the people who were upset by not being invited to the wedding are part of our married life.  But they did watch DH grow up in his small town, which he moved away from more than 10 years before we even met.  I've honestly only even met two couples who've directly mentioned something to me since then, but FIL passes along complaints several times a year.

[PrincessMommy]

Update:

First I want to say that talking about it here helped me so much to get over my disappointment.  I really appreciate having someplace to come and work this out in my mind.

So apparently the Bride has started freaking out because of people backing out at the last min.  She complained to her sister (Maid-of-honor) who complained to my youngest daughter.  My youngest daughter said something like, "My mom really wanted to come to E's wedding."  Sister explained that Bride didn't invite us because she didn't want to make us travel.  Umm??  Hello???  I can make travel decision for myself.  

So today dd comes downstairs and says, "Do you want to go to E's wedding? Her godparents backed out at the last min. and she wants to know if you would like their spot"   

Well, now we have a conflict that came up this week and can't go.   LOL.  Sigh.  I would have loved to have gone.

[gardenmom5]

wrong thread.  sorry. 

1.  

Edited January 9, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Garga]

55 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Update:

 

Well, now we have a conflict that came up this week and can't go.   LOL.  Sigh.  I would have loved to have gone.

Oh how frustrating!  

[Carol in Cal.]

5 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

Update:

First I want to say that talking about it here helped me so much to get over my disappointment.  I really appreciate having someplace to come and work this out in my mind.

So apparently the Bride has started freaking out because of people backing out at the last min.  She complained to her sister (Maid-of-honor) who complained to my youngest daughter.  My youngest daughter said something like, "My mom really wanted to come to E's wedding."  Sister explained that Bride didn't invite us because she didn't want to make us travel.  Umm??  Hello???  I can make travel decision for myself.  

So today dd comes downstairs and says, "Do you want to go to E's wedding? Her godparents backed out at the last min. and she wants to know if you would like their spot"   

Well, now we have a conflict that came up this week and can't go.   LOL.  Sigh.  I would have loved to have gone.

Go.  Really, go.  Fix the conflict and go.

She always wanted you, and now you can go.  This is a once in a lifetime (hopefully) thing.  Go.

PS  So maybe all along it was her worrying about appearing to be trolling for a present from someone who was unlikely to attend.  I can sympathize with that concern.

[Garga]

46 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Go.  Really, go.  Fix the conflict and go.

She always wanted you, and now you can go.  This is a once in a lifetime (hopefully) thing.  Go.

That was my first reaction.  If there was any way possible to get out of the other obligation, I’d get out of it.

[PrincessMommy]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Go.  Really, go.  Fix the conflict and go.

She always wanted you, and now you can go.  This is a once in a lifetime (hopefully) thing.  Go.

PS  So maybe all along it was her worrying about appearing to be trolling for a present from someone who was unlikely to attend.  I can sympathize with that concern.

I'm going to try but I will have to go alone.  My daughter already told we couldn't make it so the extras may be gone.   My dh has a commitment Saturday that would be difficult for him to change.  It's a Saturday afternoon wedding and there's no way he could make it back.   I would *have* to go and come back that day too.  We're in a band and we agreed to do a gig that is an hour away on Sunday afternoon.   There's no way we can cancel that for this.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Go.  Really, go.  Fix the conflict and go.

She always wanted you, and now you can go.  This is a once in a lifetime (hopefully) thing.  Go.

PS  So maybe all along it was her worrying about appearing to be trolling for a present from someone who was unlikely to attend.  I can sympathize with that concern.

This kind of surprises me. I think I would feel like, “I don’t want to be the B-List.” I can come now that someone else’s spot has opened up? That would really bug me a ton. 

I mean, obviously @PrincessMommy can only do what she can do anyway and it sounds like it might not work out no matter. But I’m just saying, if it were me, I wouldn’t want to go as an alternate because the real guests fell through. 

[Carol in Cal.]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

This kind of surprises me. I think I would feel like, “I don’t want to be the B-List.” I can come now that someone else’s spot has opened up? That would really bug me a ton. 

I mean, obviously @PrincessMommy can only do what she can do anyway and it sounds like it might not work out no matter. But I’m just saying, if it were me, I wouldn’t want to go as an alternate because the real guests fell through. 

See, the part about not wanting to make her travel makes me think it wasn't B-list but rather a concern about appearing to be trolling for presents.  Plus I guess in general I think weddings are a great time to extend unusual grace, particularly if (like me) one tends to be of the older generation than those getting married.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Carol in Cal.

[PrincessMommy]

53 minutes ago, Quill said:

This kind of surprises me. I think I would feel like, “I don’t want to be the B-List.” I can come now that someone else’s spot has opened up? That would really bug me a ton. 

I mean, obviously @PrincessMommy can only do what she can do anyway and it sounds like it might not work out no matter. But I’m just saying, if it were me, I wouldn’t want to go as an alternate because the real guests fell through. 

All the weddings I've been privy to had this.  That is the people you want to invite but can't because of space issues... so you add them on as invitees RSVP in the negative..  Except, I'm not on the B list really since that was not even the stated reason for our not being invited.   In that sense I get exactly what you are saying.  It does give me pause to be such an after thought.  

[Catwoman]

16 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I'm going to try but I will have to go alone.  My daughter already told we couldn't make it so the extras may be gone.   My dh has a commitment Saturday that would be difficult for him to change.  It's a Saturday afternoon wedding and there's no way he could make it back.   I would *have* to go and come back that day too.  We're in a band and we agreed to do a gig that is an hour away on Sunday afternoon.   There's no way we can cancel that for this.  

 

Ok, I know this thread is about the wedding, but... YOU’RE IN A BAND??? That is so cool!!!!!

Do you sing? Do you play an instrument? What kind of music do you guys play?

I would LOVE to be musically talented. 

[PrincessMommy]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Ok, I know this thread is about the wedding, but... YOU’RE IN A BAND??? That is so cool!!!!!

Do you sing? Do you play an instrument? What kind of music do you guys play?

I would LOVE to be musically talented. 

LOL. I wasn't sure how much to say, but wanted people to realize that I had something I really can't back out of.  We're loosely a Celtic band.  We do a mix of traditional Pub music as well as  modern Irish stuff - like from Lorenna McKennitt or Solas.   We also branch out a little into American folk - but only a little.  

I sing lead mostly and play some percussion.  We're playing in Annapolis all afternoon and I need to pace myself. 

[PrincessMommy]

I'm not going to the wedding after all.  The space was already filled and I'm kind of relieved.  As my daughter said to me, "She should have invited you in the first place."  Yeah, well, that's just water under the bridge now.   If she'd have asked me a week ago it wouldn't have been an issue but now we have such a full weekend, trying to fit a nearly 2.5hr one way trip to Philly would have added much more stress for me.  Plus it's supposed to snow.  

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

LOL. I wasn't sure how much to say, but wanted people to realize that I had something I really can't back out of.  We're loosely a Celtic band.  We do a mix of traditional Pub music as well as  modern Irish stuff - like from Lorenna McKennitt or Solas.   We also branch out a little into American folk - but only a little.  

I sing lead mostly and play some percussion.  We're playing in Annapolis all afternoon and I need to pace myself. 

 

I wish I lived near you because I’m sure I would love your music! You should set up a video camera and film your performances and post them on YouTube!

 

[GailV]

7 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

LOL. I wasn't sure how much to say, but wanted people to realize that I had something I really can't back out of.  We're loosely a Celtic band.  We do a mix of traditional Pub music as well as  modern Irish stuff - like from Lorenna McKennitt or Solas.   We also branch out a little into American folk - but only a little.  

I sing lead mostly and play some percussion.  We're playing in Annapolis all afternoon and I need to pace myself. 

In my head this entire thread now has a soundtrack of Joyce Country Ceili  Band, even though they use a male lead and thus I can't pretend it's you singing.

The snow coming through sounds like it could be stressful to deal with -- we're at the other end of the storm track, trying to figure out return-to-college travel.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I wish I lived near you because I’m sure I would love your music! You should set up a video camera and film your performances and post them on YouTube!

 

I could even see her perform, at least theoretically. 😁

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I could even see her perform, at least theoretically. 😁

 

You’re trying to make me jealous, aren’t you? 😉

It’s working!!!

[PrincessMommy]

6 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

We’re gonna need some YouTube links. You know that, right? I mean, sharing here that you’re in a Celtic band is even better than good recipes and cute baby & pet pics. 

(Of course we respect your desire to not do such a thing, but if you really don’t mind, you’ll have quite the clicks from this fan club.)

You're so sweet. 

In complete honesty, I am the WORST at self-promotion.   I also see all the flubs and mistakes in our videos.  Cringeworthy.    Fortunately for our band, the fiddle and drum player (husband/wife) are great at meeting people and making friends.  We'd never get a gig if it were left up to me.    Which reminds me... I need to post something on our FB page. Ugh. 

[PrincessMommy]

okay.. so here's the website.  

https://celticroseband.com/

[Selkie]

Wow, I love your music! Your voice is so pretty!

[Mary in VA]

Oh,  I LOVE Celtic music. It must be in the genes, I'm 56% Irish. And I live in northern Virginia, so I can see your group in person. Yippee!!