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One of my sons is a manager at ACMoore and during the holiday season he saw a couple of 5 year olds squeezing oil paints from the tubes and finger painting with them on the shelves. I asked him if the parents saw this and he said they did. Both moms looked over, shrugged and went back to their shopping. I just don't understand parents like that. The kids were quiet, busy and out of their hair so what did they care about the mess and cost.

My son told them they would have to pay for any damaged paints. He can't make them, of course, but at least they packed up their kids and left. It was only the thought of their pocket books being damaged that caused them to restrain their children. Seriously, who parents this way?

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more than you think.  this morning I saw a video someone posted of a mom HELPING her toddler draw all over the back of  a tray table on an airplane.  -so mom wasn't just ignoring it, she was helping her kid commit what is essentially vandalism.  at least the airline knows who she is because of her seat.

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2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

more than you think.  this morning I saw a video someone posted of a mom HELPING her toddler draw all over the back of  a tray table on an airplane.  -so mom wasn't just ignoring it, she was helping her kid commit what is essentially vandalism.  at least the airline knows who she is because of her seat.

...okay, but what were they using to draw? because I've done that, for sure, on our international flights.....but always with things that would wash off (and we always did wash it off before getting off the plane)

Dry erase/wet erase markers, washable crayons, washable pencils.....all will come off with baby wipes. And in my bag of "ways to keep busy toddlers/preschoolers entertained on a 10 hr flight" (or even on the "only" 2 hr flight after we took the 10 hr overnighter, spent 2+ hours in the airport, then took the connecting flight....), you better believe the balance between packing light & keeping the kid busy meant sometimes we ran out of paper, didn't bring a white board, etc. and used our coloring tools on the tray table. But always also cleaned it up after before getting off the plane. 

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Unfortunately, it keeps happening.  A kid took chalk and drew on my black car.  He didn't know it was MY car, but he had white chalk and I had a nice black front to draw on.

The chalk scratched the paint and now I have a giant penis on the hood of my car.  He was suspended for 5 days and the mom was asked to make restitution.  She hasn't, so now I am faced with whether to press charges or not.  I hate the entire thing......the kid is 13.  The mom is a single mom.  I can't make her pay, but I can make it hard on her......

It is $450 to get it repainted.  

Edited by DawnM
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5 hours ago, stephanier.1765 said:

One of my sons is a manager at ACMoore and during the holiday season he saw a couple of 5 year olds squeezing oil paints from the tubes and finger painting with them on the shelves. I asked him if the parents saw this and he said they did. Both moms looked over, shrugged and went back to their shopping. I just don't understand parents like that. The kids were quiet, busy and out of their hair so what did they care about the mess and cost.

My son told them they would have to pay for any damaged paints. He can't make them, of course, but at least they packed up their kids and left. It was only the thought of their pocket books being damaged that caused them to restrain their children. Seriously, who parents this way?

 

Those moms were not only rude and out of line, but they were also complete idiots. Don’t they realize that many oil paints are TOXIC???

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1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

 

Those moms were not only rude and out of line, but they were also complete idiots. Don’t they realize that many oil paints are TOXIC???

 

I was wondering what they were thinking about cleaning the clothes and the kids, which would be way more work than just making them behave. My own son still had a large blue streak on his arm several days later from trying to clean it up.

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1 hour ago, TheReader said:

...okay, but what were they using to draw? because I've done that, for sure, on our international flights.....but always with things that would wash off (and we always did wash it off before getting off the plane)

Dry erase/wet erase markers, washable crayons, washable pencils.....all will come off with baby wipes. And in my bag of "ways to keep busy toddlers/preschoolers entertained on a 10 hr flight" (or even on the "only" 2 hr flight after we took the 10 hr overnighter, spent 2+ hours in the airport, then took the connecting flight....), you better believe the balance between packing light & keeping the kid busy meant sometimes we ran out of paper, didn't bring a white board, etc. and used our coloring tools on the tray table. But always also cleaned it up after before getting off the plane. 

so you're teaching your kid it's ok to draw on whatever surface happens to be there?   regardless  of if the medium you're using is washable - it's not an appropriate surface!  it's someone else's property. 

one day - they are going to not be with you, and use what they have to draw with what tools they have on what surface is available.   if you're lucky - it won't be a handful of rocks on the side of someone's car -- or sharpie on the wall.

 I have had to entertain toddlers on very long trips - without teaching them such things are ok, and without benefit of portable dry erase boards,  boogie boards - or any electronic device of any kind.

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

Unfortunately, it keeps happening.  A kid took chalk and drew on my black car.  He didn't know it was MY car, but he had white chalk and I had a nice black front to draw on.

The chalk scratched the paint and now I have a giant penis on the hood of my car.  He was suspended for 5 days and the mom was asked to make restitution.  She hasn't, so now I am faced with whether to press charges or not.  I hate the entire thing......the kid is 13.  The mom is a single mom.  I can't make her pay, but I can make it hard on her......

It is $450 to get it repainted.  

try judge judy.   they pay it - and the mother and child get a lesson.   just be sure to document and photograph everything.  (you may need a police report to take to the show.)

I get that you feel sorry for the mom for being a single mom so you assume low--income, but the kid is calling out for attention of some kind.   I don't get what it is with 13 year old boys.   there are some at the middle school where I have dudeling who do that on one of the benches out side.  at least it's pencil - but when it gets washed off, they just draw it again.    there are some advantages to not having a NT boy.

but your choice is to pursue having them pay to fix it, pay to fix it yourself, or have a giant penis on the hood of your car.

 

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5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

try judge judy.   they pay it - and the mother and child get a lesson.   just be sure to document and photograph everything.  (you may need a police report to take to the show.)

I get that you feel sorry for the mom for being a single mom so you assume low--income, but the kid is calling out for attention of some kind.   I don't get what it is with 13 year old boys.   there are some at the middle school where I have dudeling who do that on one of the benches out side.  at least it's pencil - but when it gets washed off, they just draw it again.    there are some advantages to not having a NT boy.

but your choice is to pursue having them pay to fix it, pay to fix it yourself, or have a giant penis on the hood of your car.

 

 

Police already involved, they took pictures.  They contacted mom.  Mom told them she wanted to pay.  But then hasn't.  The police told me she can be ordered to pay, but there isn't much done if she doesn't.

He does get a juvenile record.

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2 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Police already involved, they took pictures.  They contacted mom.  Mom told them she wanted to pay.  But then hasn't.  The police told me she can be ordered to pay, but there isn't much done if she doesn't.

He does get a juvenile record.

you can actually contact the show - if both parties agree to the rules it is binding arbitration.  the show would pay for the cost of repairs if ruled in your favor.   any judgment wouldn't go on his record though.  

does mom understand even if she only pays $10 - $20 a month - at least that's something?  it doens't have to be on big lump sum if she can't afford that?

(I know it's nothing- but it's the symbolism.  30 years ago, my sil's car was stolen out of her driveway by teens who took it for a joy ride.  they inflicted $5K? worth of damage - 30 years ago dollars. it was an expensive and new, car.   the teens were ordered to make a monthly payment for restitution.)

 

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2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

you can actually contact the show - if both parties agree to the rules it is binding arbitration.  the show would pay for the cost of repairs if ruled in your favor.   any judgment wouldn't go on his record though.  

does mom understand even if she only pays $10 - $20 a month - at least that's something?  it doens't have to be on big lump sum if she can't afford that?

(I know it's nothing- but it's the symbolism.  30 years ago, my sil's car was stolen out of her driveway by teens who took it for a joy ride.  they inflicted $5K? worth of damage - 30 years ago dollars. it was an expensive and new, car.   the teens were ordered to make a monthly payment for restitution.)

 

 

The problem is, I don't have time to take off and go to wherever the show is, and I really don't want to be on TV as suing a student.  

We will see where this goes.  I feel sick about it to be honest. 

And sorry about your SIL.  That is horrible.  So many horrible people out there.

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4 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

The problem is, I don't have time to take off and go to wherever the show is, and I really don't want to be on TV as suing a student.  

We will see where this goes.  I feel sick about it to be honest. 

And sorry about your SIL.  That is horrible.  So many horrible people out there.

I agree. good luck figuring it out.

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One of the things my parents did right was instill in us a deep respect for the property of others. We were supposed to care for things that were not ours even better than things that were ours. So, library books estemed more than our own, hotel rooms left as clean as possible, borrowed equipment returned in top condition...

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19 minutes ago, Quill said:

One of the things my parents did right was instill in us a deep respect for the property of others. We were supposed to care for things that were not ours even better than things that were ours. So, library books estemed more than our own, hotel rooms left as clean as possible, borrowed equipment returned in top condition...

 

Yes, everything borrowed was returned cleaner than when you received it - if at all possible.  🙂 

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20 minutes ago, Quill said:

One of the things my parents did right was instill in us a deep respect for the property of others. We were supposed to care for things that were not ours even better than things that were ours. So, library books estemed more than our own, hotel rooms left as clean as possible, borrowed equipment returned in top condition...

the times I've checked out library books - and PICTURES WERE CUT OUT!!!! who does that?

I would always take them to the librarian so they'd know.

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12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

so you're teaching your kid it's ok to draw on whatever surface happens to be there?   regardless  of if the medium you're using is washable - it's not an appropriate surface!  it's someone else's property. 

one day - they are going to not be with you, and use what they have to draw with what tools they have on what surface is available.   if you're lucky - it won't be a handful of rocks on the side of someone's car -- or sharpie on the wall.

 I have had to entertain toddlers on very long trips - without teaching them such things are ok, and without benefit of portable dry erase boards,  boogie boards - or any electronic device of any kind.

 

 

 

Well, not really. I am teaching them that if mom (or other trusted adult) gives permission, it is okay to draw on x surface. And I am teaching them that if we draw on a non-paper surface, we absolutely MUST clean it up when done, completely. And, here we are, many years later, and none of them have grown up to draw on random surfaces, whether supervised or not, so I think we did okay.

It's great you were able to make long trips without any of those tools, though! Yay for you! We just chose to do things differently, and like I said, it turned out okay; not a single one of them has turned to a life of rampant vandalism or become a graffiti artist or anything even remotely similar, so.....

The one time the youngest did draw on a floor (tracing grout lines on our tile...) was well *before* he was ever permitted to draw on airline tray tables, and even at 3 yrs old he was then also required to assist with the clean-up, because above all, we taught them to always clean any mess they make. (yes, he was older than 3 when we let him draw on tray tables; he has significant developmental delays; no, I'm not interested in arguing it further)

We taught respect for others' property in plenty of ways, across all scenarios, so that there really was never confusion or worry that "it's okay today in this situation to draw on the tray table, with mom, as long as we clean up" would somehow transfer over to "therefore it's also totally okay to draw on anything, ever, with whatever thing I have in hand." 

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20 hours ago, stephanier.1765 said:

One of my sons is a manager at ACMoore and during the holiday season he saw a couple of 5 year olds squeezing oil paints from the tubes and finger painting with them on the shelves. I asked him if the parents saw this and he said they did. Both moms looked over, shrugged and went back to their shopping. I just don't understand parents like that. The kids were quiet, busy and out of their hair so what did they care about the mess and cost.

My son told them they would have to pay for any damaged paints. He can't make them, of course, but at least they packed up their kids and left. It was only the thought of their pocket books being damaged that caused them to restrain their children. Seriously, who parents this way?

I guess that's why store employees tell me my kids are so good when I'm sternly trying to break up a wrestling match in the middle of an aisle??  Not only would we have bought the paint, but the kid(s) would be footing the bill.  And I typically offer to clean up accidental messes we've made in stores, but so far we haven't been taken up on that one.  I'm like, "If you'll just give me the mop..." 😋  I'm sure there's policy, protocol, and liability behind all of that.

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15 hours ago, Quill said:

One of the things my parents did right was instill in us a deep respect for the property of others. We were supposed to care for things that were not ours even better than things that were ours. So, library books estemed more than our own, hotel rooms left as clean as possible, borrowed equipment returned in top condition...

 

This is what I do with my kids too.  We always clean up the hotel or airbnb place before we leave, take care of library books and admit when we damaged one, and respect our neighbors yards and homes by not going into their yards or picking their flowers. 

This isn't lazy parenting.  Lazy parenting is turning on tv when you need a break (something I do).   Handing them an ipad when you need to make a call.  Or saying we are having oatmeal for supper.  I think we are all lazy parents at times.  Those are all lazy things I do.  

But this is showing them that they can commit a crime.  Insane. 

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3 hours ago, TheReader said:

 

Well, not really. I am teaching them that if mom (or other trusted adult) gives permission, it is okay to draw on x surface. And I am teaching them that if we draw on a non-paper surface, we absolutely MUST clean it up when done, completely. And, here we are, many years later, and none of them have grown up to draw on random surfaces, whether supervised or not, so I think we did okay.

It's great you were able to make long trips without any of those tools, though! Yay for you! We just chose to do things differently, and like I said, it turned out okay; not a single one of them has turned to a life of rampant vandalism or become a graffiti artist or anything even remotely similar, so.....

The one time the youngest did draw on a floor (tracing grout lines on our tile...) was well *before* he was ever permitted to draw on airline tray tables, and even at 3 yrs old he was then also required to assist with the clean-up, because above all, we taught them to always clean any mess they make. (yes, he was older than 3 when we let him draw on tray tables; he has significant developmental delays; no, I'm not interested in arguing it further)

We taught respect for others' property in plenty of ways, across all scenarios, so that there really was never confusion or worry that "it's okay today in this situation to draw on the tray table, with mom, as long as we clean up" would somehow transfer over to "therefore it's also totally okay to draw on anything, ever, with whatever thing I have in hand." 

sweetheart  - you're young.  personal electronics didn't EXIST when I started taking long trips with my kids! 

 

When your kids are independent adults, then you can declare if they turned out well or not.  

we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Edited by gardenmom5
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5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

 

This is what I do with my kids too.  We always clean up the hotel or airbnb place before we leave, take care of library books and admit when we damaged one, and respect our neighbors yards and homes by not going into their yards or picking their flowers. 

This isn't lazy parenting.  Lazy parenting is turning on tv when you need a break (something I do).   Handing them an ipad when you need to make a call.  Or saying we are having oatmeal for supper.  I think we are all lazy parents at times.  Those are all lazy things I do.  

But this is showing them that they can commit a crime.  Insane. 

Lazy parenting is on a spectrum.  While I understand what you're saying (I've done it too), what you are talking about is purposeful.  And I'm pretty sure that if the kids started to get into things that they shouldn't while the tv was on, or started to argue loudly over the Ipad or started  a food fight with the oatmeal, you would intervene.  It's the parents that wouildn't bother to intervene,  who are not purposefully setting things up so that there can be a bit of a safe and healthy break, who are lazy to the point of neglectful. 

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I finally growled at a couple of girls in the grocery store the other day. I felt like a curmudgeon, but I'd had to run my cart into the displays several times to keep from hitting them as they ran screaming through the aisles. I finally begged the mom to PLEASE not have them run inside--that they were going to get hit. She didn't even look my way. I'm glad I don't ski any more--dodging children who have not been taught to look out for others and how to STOP was just too hard on my nerves!

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20 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

sweetheart  - you're young.  personal electronics didn't EXIST when I started taking long trips with my kids! 

 

When your kids are independent adults, then you can declare if they turned out well or not.  

we're going to have to agree to disagree.

well, they're 21, 18 and 13.....so, perhaps not fully independent yet, but I'm thinkin' close enough on the oldest two to make an educated guess. Sure, college could bring us something unexpected, or they could bounce back home, but I'm pretty confident in what they've come through thus far and how well they've done it that they'll manage and get there. 

But yes, we can agree to disagree. 

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23 hours ago, CES2005 said:

I guess that's why store employees tell me my kids are so good when I'm sternly trying to break up a wrestling match in the middle of an aisle??  Not only would we have bought the paint, but the kid(s) would be footing the bill.  And I typically offer to clean up accidental messes we've made in stores, but so far we haven't been taken up on that one.  I'm like, "If you'll just give me the mop..." 😋  I'm sure there's policy, protocol, and liability behind all of that.

This is me, too. I was taught, and our boys have been taught, leave a place/item better than how you found it, and we do. If we do make a mess, for whatever reason, we clean it up ourselves (or in a setting where we have to ask for supplies, we ask/offer, and then do as instructed).  

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16 hours ago, TheReader said:

well, they're 21, 18 and 13.....so, perhaps not fully independent yet, but I'm thinkin' close enough on the oldest two to make an educated guess. Sure, college could bring us something unexpected, or they could bounce back home, but I'm pretty confident in what they've come through thus far and how well they've done it that they'll manage and get there. 

But yes, we can agree to disagree. 

Some of us have ones that are launched. And I have to say, my kids never threw a fit in public when I stood there ignoring them. Yes, a few times I left a cart and hauled them out. It's embarrassing to have to apologize to the lady up front, but they always thanked me for dealing with the cranky kid. I am always amazed by that photo of the Duchess of Cambridge, squatting down, with Princess Charlotte on her knee, putting the fear of God in Prince George. In heels. We're gong through this right now in Scouts (not wearing heels though). Mom and Dad wringing their hands, saying "What are you going to do? He won't do such-and-such." I'll tell you what we're going to do. Your 12yo brat is not going on outings, unless one of you is there to haul him off. Guess what? He's not going to camp this year as you can't be bothered to take him with your "busy" schedule. Boom. Not my problem. I will never drive your kid anywhere again. I cannot have a kid who will not stay where he is supposed to, and I don't need your litany of excuses. 

Edited by Margaret in CO
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8 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Some of us have ones that are launched. And I have to say, my kids never threw a fit in public when I stood there ignoring them. Yes, a few times I left a cart and hauled them out. It's embarrassing to have to apologize to the lady up front, but they always thanked me for dealing with the cranky kid. I am always amazed by that photo of the Duchess of Cambridge, squatting down, with Princess Charlotte on her knee, putting the fear of God in Prince William. In heels. We're gong through this right now in Scouts (not wearing heels though). Mom and Dad wringing their hands, saying "What are you going to do? He won't do such-and-such." I'll tell you what we're going to do. Your 12yo brat is not going on outings, unless one of you is there to haul him off. Guess what? He's not going to camp this year as you can't be bothered to take him with your "busy" schedule. Boom. Not my problem. I will never drive your kid anywhere again. I cannot have a kid who will not stay where he is supposed to, and I don't need your litany of excuses. 

I get that some of you have already launched your children, absolutely. 

I'm not real sure where all of the "mine never threw a fit if I just dealt with it/ignored them" stuff is coming from, or why you're directing that at me; as far as I can recall, I've not said anything indicating I agree with the sort of "I can't get little Johnny to behave" behavior (in mom or child) that you are describing, or that the OP started off with, because I absolutely do not. 

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17 hours ago, TheReader said:

well, they're 21, 18 and 13.....so, perhaps not fully independent yet, but I'm thinkin' close enough on the oldest two to make an educated guess. Sure, college could bring us something unexpected, or they could bounce back home, but I'm pretty confident in what they've come through thus far and how well they've done it that they'll manage and get there. 

But yes, we can agree to disagree. 

like I said - your kids are young. as in,  not launched.  I have two whose only debt is their own mortgage payments.  and  two on the cusp only because they kept changing majors.

 

 

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5 hours ago, TheReader said:

I get that some of you have already launched your children, absolutely. 

I'm not real sure where all of the "mine never threw a fit if I just dealt with it/ignored them" stuff is coming from, or why you're directing that at me; as far as I can recall, I've not said anything indicating I agree with the sort of "I can't get little Johnny to behave" behavior (in mom or child) that you are describing, or that the OP started off with, because I absolutely do not. 

I don't think anyone is saying that - it's how we dealt with it, and never let them deface someone else's property.

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5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that - it's how we dealt with it, and never let them deface someone else's property.

This.

There is no excuse for parenting that teaches poor behavior.  Even if kids eventually turn out well, and are exposed to other ideas that focus on respect to mitigate the poor behavior of their parents.  Intentional disrespect of property and others is never okay.  This shouldn't even be a question of a thing.  Making restitution after the fact by cleaning it up does not change the poor decisions made - it only makes amends.

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25 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

The consequences come to the forefront on the job, and will get a person dismissed.  They also come in daily life, if the consequences result in damage to others .

The idea that its okay to disrespect another's property is wrong.  

The idea that its okay to deface property rather than obey the rule of law is wrong.

The idea that mommy can give permission to disregard the law is wrong. 

Mommy spreading germs and chemicals with her baby wipes and markers is against the law if her actions result in the next person in that space having damage.  

And claiming there is nothing else to be done but deface property...lol.  Those that have served jury duty know this answer if they dont remember from their American Govt' class in high school.  The court restitution is service hours as well as clean up, because the real problem is the selfishness that lead to the decision to discard the rule of law.

Oh good grief, seriously?  I get that technically "deface" does not specifically state "permanently" but it does say to spoil or to mar. Likewise, vandalize states "to ruin or render unusable."  I can't be the only person who thinks using such terms for the use of dry erase markers, immediately washed off after, is overkill.  If you all really think that the use of a washable marker or crayon, that is then immediately cleaned up, is equivalent to someone writing permanent graffiti on something, scratching into a surface, keying a car, writing my name on a bathroom stall, etc., then.....yea, I reiterate, Agree to Disagree and let's drop it, 'cause that is ridiculous. 

And "spreading germs & chemicals with baby wipes and markers is against the law if it results in the next person in that space having damage" -- please. Baby-safe, scent-free, alcohol-free wipes are hardly likely to leave any kind of damaging residue, to the tray table or the next person in the seat. It's far gentler than any disinfecting cleaner the airline is going to wipe it down with, at the very least. 

And claiming there's nothing else to be done....I didn't; I did say it was one tool of many that we used, if needed after we'd run out of paper, on some of our trips. Trips that, door-to-door, lasted over 24 hours. With a developmentally delayed preschooler, with one "under the seat" sized carry on for him that had to contain diapers, wipes, change of clothes, protein-packed snacks, and 24+ hours worth of entertainment. Which always included paper to draw on, first, but washable markers/crayons in case of accidental marks on the tray table...and when I saw how easily they came off, yes, intentional drawing on the tray table if/when the paper itself was exhausted & the other activities were not of interest. 

You guys can keep debating my lawlessness if you wish, or my poor parenting, or how horribly lucky I am that none of my children have yet grown up (or partly up, because after all, they aren't even launched yet..) to be disrespectful criminal vandals what with this terrible example I set them when the youngest was small, or how the fact that they actually have grown up to be kind, thoughtful, respectful, considerate, helpful human beings that everyone who meets them, loves them, is despite/inspite of my poor decision and in no way reflects or implies they had a good upbringing (I mean, really, they aren't launched yet, so I can't honestly assess whether they're good human beings or not.....)......but I am done and over it. 

I shared one anecdote from their childhood, trying to offer a different perspective on something that was mentioned up thread (merely trying to point out that just seeing someone draw on a tray table does not mean that person then actually *left* the drawing all over the tray table....), and boy, you all have made me wish I hadn't. Thanks; well done. You can bet I'll reconsider before making that mistake again.  So much for "agree to disagree" and all that......

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4 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Oh good grief, seriously?  I get that technically "deface" does not specifically state "permanently" but it does say to spoil or to mar. Likewise, vandalize states "to ruin or render unusable."  I can't be the only person who thinks using such terms for the use of dry erase markers, immediately washed off after, is overkill.  If you all really think that the use of a washable marker or crayon, that is then immediately cleaned up, is equivalent to someone writing permanent graffiti on something, scratching into a surface, keying a car, writing my name on a bathroom stall, etc., then.....yea, I reiterate, Agree to Disagree and let's drop it, 'cause that is ridiculous. 

And "spreading germs & chemicals with baby wipes and markers is against the law if it results in the next person in that space having damage" -- please. Baby-safe, scent-free, alcohol-free wipes are hardly likely to leave any kind of damaging residue, to the tray table or the next person in the seat. It's far gentler than any disinfecting cleaner the airline is going to wipe it down with, at the very least. 

And claiming there's nothing else to be done....I didn't; I did say it was one tool of many that we used, if needed after we'd run out of paper, on some of our trips. Trips that, door-to-door, lasted over 24 hours. With a developmentally delayed preschooler, with one "under the seat" sized carry on for him that had to contain diapers, wipes, change of clothes, protein-packed snacks, and 24+ hours worth of entertainment. Which always included paper to draw on, first, but washable markers/crayons in case of accidental marks on the tray table...and when I saw how easily they came off, yes, intentional drawing on the tray table if/when the paper itself was exhausted & the other activities were not of interest. 

You guys can keep debating my lawlessness if you wish, or my poor parenting, or how horribly lucky I am that none of my children have yet grown up (or partly up, because after all, they aren't even launched yet..) to be disrespectful criminal vandals what with this terrible example I set them when the youngest was small, or how the fact that they actually have grown up to be kind, thoughtful, respectful, considerate, helpful human beings that everyone who meets them, loves them, is despite/inspite of my poor decision and in no way reflects or implies they had a good upbringing (I mean, really, they aren't launched yet, so I can't honestly assess whether they're good human beings or not.....)......but I am done and over it. 

I shared one anecdote from their childhood, trying to offer a different perspective on something that was mentioned up thread (merely trying to point out that just seeing someone draw on a tray table does not mean that person then actually *left* the drawing all over the tray table....), and boy, you all have made me wish I hadn't. Thanks; well done. You can bet I'll reconsider before making that mistake again.  So much for "agree to disagree" and all that......

They all really did pile on you didn't they?  One of the reasons I quit posting here but occasionally read things.  You sound like an amazing mom.  Don't let the pile on discourage you.

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17 minutes ago, mims said:

They all really did pile on you didn't they?  One of the reasons I quit posting here but occasionally read things.  You sound like an amazing mom.  Don't let the pile on discourage you.

No.
Finding a decision ethically wrong is not a pile on.  Shaming people who find destruction of property wrong is not okay. 

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52 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Oh good grief, seriously?  I get that technically "deface" does not specifically state "permanently" but it does say to spoil or to mar. Likewise, vandalize states "to ruin or render unusable."  I can't be the only person who thinks using such terms for the use of dry erase markers, immediately washed off after, is overkill.  If you all really think that the use of a washable marker or crayon, that is then immediately cleaned up, is equivalent to someone writing permanent graffiti on something, scratching into a surface, keying a car, writing my name on a bathroom stall, etc., then.....yea, I reiterate, Agree to Disagree and let's drop it, 'cause that is ridiculous. 

And "spreading germs & chemicals with baby wipes and markers is against the law if it results in the next person in that space having damage" -- please. Baby-safe, scent-free, alcohol-free wipes are hardly likely to leave any kind of damaging residue, to the tray table or the next person in the seat. It's far gentler than any disinfecting cleaner the airline is going to wipe it down with, at the very least. 

And claiming there's nothing else to be done....I didn't; I did say it was one tool of many that we used, if needed after we'd run out of paper, on some of our trips. Trips that, door-to-door, lasted over 24 hours. With a developmentally delayed preschooler, with one "under the seat" sized carry on for him that had to contain diapers, wipes, change of clothes, protein-packed snacks, and 24+ hours worth of entertainment. Which always included paper to draw on, first, but washable markers/crayons in case of accidental marks on the tray table...and when I saw how easily they came off, yes, intentional drawing on the tray table if/when the paper itself was exhausted & the other activities were not of interest. 

You guys can keep debating my lawlessness if you wish, or my poor parenting, or how horribly lucky I am that none of my children have yet grown up (or partly up, because after all, they aren't even launched yet..) to be disrespectful criminal vandals what with this terrible example I set them when the youngest was small, or how the fact that they actually have grown up to be kind, thoughtful, respectful, considerate, helpful human beings that everyone who meets them, loves them, is despite/inspite of my poor decision and in no way reflects or implies they had a good upbringing (I mean, really, they aren't launched yet, so I can't honestly assess whether they're good human beings or not.....)......but I am done and over it. 

I shared one anecdote from their childhood, trying to offer a different perspective on something that was mentioned up thread (merely trying to point out that just seeing someone draw on a tray table does not mean that person then actually *left* the drawing all over the tray table....), and boy, you all have made me wish I hadn't. Thanks; well done. You can bet I'll reconsider before making that mistake again.  So much for "agree to disagree" and all that......

I am really baffled at some of the very strong and entrenched reactions to what I understood was an anecdote from a very long time ago.  I am a strict mom (and was a strict nanny before that) who doesn't see your long-ago-action as criminal.  I don't know that I would recommend it as a tip since so many things are recorded and then made part of online shaming, but still.   .Anyway - you don't have to respond since this seems to have gotten away from the actual subject of this thread.  Ie.  I don't see your long-ago strategy for surviving international air travel as lazy parenting behavior.. 

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I'm going to relay the tale of NON-lazy parenting. I saw an obviously tired, frazzled mom the other day, with a toddler in the grocery cart, and a baby strapped to her front. And they went through the produce section she and her toddler were having a lively conversation about all the colors and shapes! "How many apples should we get? Green or red? You know, Daddy likes the green ones. A pineapple? We could have it for a snack!" And on and on. I made an extra turn around just so I could walk past and smile at them. Mom, wherever you are--my hat is off to you! I made a point of saying something to the family with the energetic little boy across the aisle from me on my last flight. Both parents worked hard to keep the little guy engaged and happy--he was such a cutie. Last year I offered (and the mom took me up on it) to hold a fussy baby when mom had had enough. I had him asleep in nothing flat as I was not as stressed as mom. It gave her a break and she was grateful. Here's to you, Moms!

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On 12/29/2018 at 11:30 AM, gardenmom5 said:

sweetheart  - you're young.  personal electronics didn't EXIST when I started taking long trips with my kids! 

 

When your kids are independent adults, then you can declare if they turned out well or not.  

we're going to have to agree to disagree.

This is condescending. I'm surprised because you don't usually respond so strongly to something relatively minor. No harm was done; the trays weren't permanently damaged and the kids who were on a long flight had something to do for a little while. I do believe that at ages 21 and 18, a parent can frequently determine if their child has a streak towards vandalism or not. 

Our family, too, has taken long trips (13-15 hours at a time) with young kids. Most of them have been in vehicles where we could get out and move around when needed. Those long trips are very different than being limited to one or two seats on an airplane for long periods of time. I would think it would be very difficult for parents of smaller kids to entertain those kids if they can't move around much for 8 or 10 hours at a time. Parents need to be resourceful on long flights. 

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

like I said - your kids are young. as in,  not launched.  I have two whose only debt is their own mortgage payments.  and  two on the cusp only because they kept changing majors.

 

 

Again, condescension. Whether TheReader's kids are launched or not has nothing to do with her decision to use a surface that, in all likelihood, was left cleaner than when they boarded the plane, to draw on 10 or so years earlier.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but it sounds to me like you're saying only adults who don't have any debt other than a mortgage are launched, which eliminates any adults who have school debt as being launched. That doesn't fit my definition of "launched". I would consider my child launched if she is able to live on her own, supporting herself in whatever endeavors she chooses, in or out of school, debt or no debt.  I have a 23 yo dd whom I consider launched, but she still comes home several times a year. She has no debt and has made choices so she can go through medical school debt free. I also have a 19 yo daughter whom I consider very close to being launched. This is likely her last holiday at home; next summer, she isn't planning to be home at all. However, she will likely graduate with debt. Regardless of her decisions, I will still consider her launched, regardless if she has debt or a degree. Age (and debt) aren't a prerequisite to being launched.

As someone who has kids older than mine, I value your opinions. I've enjoyed hearing how you've done things and the choices your young adults have made and it frequently gives me pause as we consider how dh and I handle our kids. However, the exchange this morning came across as  "my experiences are better than yours because I have these launched successful kids and yours haven't yet proven themselves. How could they; they (and you) are too young to know anything yet." This isn't what I would recognize as a normal exchange for you.

 

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5 hours ago, wilrunner said:

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but it sounds to me like you're saying only adults who don't have any debt other than a mortgage are launched, which eliminates any adults who have school debt as being launched. That doesn't fit my definition of "launched". 

 

Haha, yeah. If that's the definition of launched, dh and myself aren't launched yet, despite a marriage of 12 years, 3 degrees between us, 4 children, and 6 years of homeschooling. 😁

I consider a good measure of "launched" when your parents come to town and you take them out to dinner instead of them taking you out to dinner. 

Edited by MeaganS
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2 minutes ago, MeaganS said:

 

Haha, yeah. If that's the definition of launched, dh and myself aren't launched yet, despite a marriage of 12 years, 3 degrees between us, 4 children, and 6 years of homeschooling. 😁

I consider a good measure of "launched" as when your parents come to town and you take them out to dinner instead of them taking you out to dinner. 

Oh dear, your measure of launched leaves me out. Twenty years of marriage, 3 kids (one going to college next year) and we've never bought our parents dinner. Neither set will let us.

Maybe I'll finally launch next year 🙂

Kelly

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21 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

Oh dear, your measure of launched leaves me out. Twenty years of marriage, 3 kids (one going to college next year) and we've never bought our parents dinner. Neither set will let us.

Maybe I'll finally launch next year 🙂

Kelly

 

I think trying should count! 😉

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11 hours ago, wilrunner said:

This is condescending.

 

you're right.  I was, and it was wrong.

It really disturbs me when I encounter such disregard for another's property.

5 hours ago, MeaganS said:

 

Haha, yeah. If that's the definition of launched, dh and myself aren't launched yet, despite a marriage of 12 years, 3 degrees between us, 4 children, and 6 years of homeschooling. 😁

I consider a good measure of "launched" when your parents come to town and you take them out to dinner instead of them taking you out to dinner. 

If you pay all your own bills (not relying upon your parents - gifts not included), you're launched.

 

 

this is something dh has enjoyed:


how many kids do you have? 

three.

how many live at home?

five - two got married.

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