CLEP exams for an end of course type box check?

[MamaSprout]

For various reasons I would like to have an outside verification for dd's classes this year. We are one-year-at-a-time-homeschoolers and she is deep enough into high school work I want her to have something besides Mom grades for placement (not trying for high school or college credits here).

She will probably take the ACT at the end of the year, but I would like some painless options to verify her coursework.

Language arts- the ACT should cover this (I'll have her do writing, too). I do think she could take the SAT subject test for this, though. I think she knows the material.

Algebra 2. Probably the ACT for this. Are there more course-specific options for end-or-course-tests?

Chemistry. CLEP maybe? I'm not sure she'd be up to the SAT subject test. I've heard it's one of the tougher ones.

French. CLEP? She'll eventually take the SAT subject test and/or the AP test if we can find a site, but she's not ready this year. I've also considered having her take the Nebraska Online High School Placement test for French or an Accuplacer.

[G5052]

Those are options, but you need to consider the impact of poor scores. I never had mine take a test like that where I wasn't very sure that they would do well. I didn't want a poor score recorded, and I didn't want them taking a test that was above their skills just to do it.

Mine took the ACT or SAT every year in high school both for practice and because we were in a state that required annual testing. For me it knocked out multiple requirements at once.

[mumto2]

1 hour ago, MamaSprout said:

For various reasons I would like to have an outside verification for dd's classes this year. We are one-year-at-a-time-homeschoolers and she is deep enough into high school work I want her to have something besides Mom grades for placement (not trying for high school or college credits here).

She will probably take the ACT at the end of the year, but I would like some painless options to verify her coursework.

Language arts- the ACT should cover this (I'll have her do writing, too). I do think she could take the SAT subject test for this, though. I think she knows the material.

Algebra 2. Probably the ACT for this. Are there more course-specific options for end-or-course-tests?

Chemistry. CLEP maybe? I'm not sure she'd be up to the SAT subject test. I've heard it's one of the tougher ones.

French. CLEP? She'll eventually take the SAT subject test and/or the AP test if we can find a site, but she's not ready this year. I've also considered having her take the Nebraska Online High School Placement test for French or an Accuplacer.

 

FWIW, we did a whole lot of CLEP exams which have been revised very recently, I believe.  I will share my memories of Chem and French.......

The chemistry CLEP has a very low pass rate.....memory says like 10% at the time my Dd did it.  My daughter did pass with a high score but she needed to, as she did need the college credit.  She studied way above her basic course to do all the items in the syllabus ...... she basically covered Chem 1 and 2 from a University Coursera class.  Ds decided to do General Science for his CLEP after watching Dd.

She also did the French.  The scoring appeared similar to us ( 3 years ago ) on most CLEP exams and SAT Subjects.  One was on a 800 scale the other 80.  If my kids received a 700 on a SAT they were close to a 70 on CLEP.  We had similar scores on 5 different exams I think so most likely the norm.   French was a bit different,  she received a 730 on the SAT and a week later received a 63 on the CLEP.  A fairly large difference,  the CLEP score was worth 2 years of French at a University so all that was needed but I wouldn’t class it as easier.  Also there in almost no study material for the French CLEP.

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't worry about poor scores bc no one ever asks for CLEP scores as something required to submit, BUT I domwonder if you have the wrong perception of CLEP exams. They are not below level exams. If you don't think she could score well on an AP or subject test, she probably won't on a CLEP. CLEPs are considered easier bc they are all multiple choice exams, but the content is not simplified. They are convenient bc you can take them yr round. But, you can't take the exams within something like 3 to 6 months of each other if you don't score a high enough score.

[mumto2]

16 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I wouldn't worry about poor scores bc no one ever asks for CLEP scores as something required to submit, BUT I domwonder if you have the wrong perception of CLEP exams. They are not below level exams. If you don't think she could score well on an AP or subject test, she probably won't on a CLEP. CLEPs are considered easier bc they are all multiple choice exams, but the content is not simplified. They are convenient bc you can take them yr round. But, you can't take the exams within something like 3 to 6 months of each other if you don't score a high enough score.

Want to add Dd did get a comparable score on the SAT Practice for chemistry to her actual CLEP.  Both were low 700 or 70’s...... Cleps are not easier just more accessible.  We did use them as year ends after we figured out how much easier they were for us to access but I used College texts as the basis for most coursework so it was perfect for them.  Our drive living overseas was two hours for any exam,  being able to test outside of high traffic hours was a blessing.  We did take them for credit and the scores do appear on the transcripts for their AS in parenthesis.  So they did not disappear but we did claim them.  😉

[cbollin]

I wasn’t sure I understood what your goal is with placement (not trying for high school or college). I feel like once you tell me I’ll blush that I misread it. If it means that you might transfer to public or private school, then you need to jump through the hoops they will want to see and do.  You asked about specific end of course tests. In my state the public school students take state wide EOC.  practices for those are on dept of ed website and some high schools.  I don't know many homeschoolers who take those. But stuff like that varies by state so I mention it.

 

Wanted to share my experiences of what I did and learned when I wanted confidence for my mommy issued grades. Long story on rainy day where I live. long post.

 

I have graduated two so far. When oldest was in grade 9, I wasn’t sure I felt confident on my mommy grades either. When oldest took ACT, I saw results and decided the mommy grades were right on target. When middle gal took ACT and was in average, but college ready, I thought ok, I have appropriate subjective feel on this.

 

For subjects that weren’t on ACT, I figured if my gut was right on English, reading and math, then it was close enough for those subjects as well. Since the science section on ACT was not really about content, I didn’t worry on that.

 

If I needed more than that for being confident on the transcript, I would have found someone at my church who works in public or private schools and asked (and paid for the time) for their opinion on work level compared to their students in various levels. For me that would have been a good way to have outside opinion if the need was not about college credit early.

 

For giving grades in coursework in our homeschool high school we used the publisher’s recommendations on grading and rubrics. For a self designed course, I tried to make some objective ways to give a grade based on percentages and such. I found samples of class syllabus around on web and based on a few of those as models. I looked at the publicly available files at NARHS website.

 

Science courses like Chemistry: I wasn’t doing self designed courses so I just graded by the publisher and that was fine.

 

Foreign Language: I was doing regular high school level courses for checking the boxes that 2 credits were there. I knew that if my children needed foreign language for their degree, they’d be asked to take placement test at the college if they wanted to do same language as in high school, or just start at 101 in a new language. If my goals were fluency in the subject, I would have outsourced.

 

Oldest took a CLEP in college algebra. I did use that as an extra way for me to know that what I was doing for grading her math was going to be ok. (verification). She didn’t get to use that CLEP exam for credit in her degree. But it sure gave me confidence. She also took Analyzing/Inter. Lit CLEP and her college counted that for gen ed. By the way, she has graduated college with top grades from them. So in some ways, my painless approach for deciding if mommy grades were not exaggerated was ACT score in high school, and be confident with homeschool high school publisher’s recommendations on grading work. We used materials that are easily considered college prep which is why I could be confident.

 

Middle child did not do her nine different CLEP exams until the year after high school graduation. She was working at regular high school level in material while in high school, so I didn’t need to prove anything beyond ACT in grade 11. Her score showed she was college ready and average. So yeah, all of those As and Bs were just right. For college credit with CLEP she used the free courses on ModernStates dot org along with practice tests from Petersons (free at our library). She’s passed many of those on first try and community college has awarded much credit. I know she would have struggled during high school to use CLEP as a way to validate mommy grades. She wasn’t ready. Given how courses were graded in her semester at community college this fall, I’m more confident now that I was doing a fine job and my mommy grades were just fine.

 

Don’t know if any of that helps in your journey. If you want to use CLEP, I’d encourage you to take a look at modernstates dot org site and use their materials for prep work and test fee vouchers. See if your library has the Peterson’s practice tests (ask the reference desk.) another good prep is REA prep books. Although there were some changes in a handful of clep test, it was not in content. It was more of instead of asking 12 questions on XYZ sub topic, it now asks 15 in that subtopic and then fewer than before in another subtopic.   It wasn't huge jumps like going from 10 questions in sub topic to being 100 of the questions.  so I think modern states and practice tests are still good to use.

[MamaSprout]

Thanks. 8 is right. We won't want these for credit and no one would see them unless it was a placement challenge. I'll have to look at the content of the French to see what she's covered. We've been pretty non-linear there. World of Chem is the same as Zumdahl's Chem book for non majors, but again, I'll need to look and see what's covered to see if it would make sense.

Definitely open to other options where I could have her take a proctored test and stick the results in a file.

[MamaSprout]

We do have two potential scenarios where we simply may need outside verification for placement, mostly to be in an AP class with a pre-req. I don't want her to be a summer or year removed from Chemistry and have her need to take someone's final exam. French would be for placement. I'm less concerned there b/c French is sort of year round for us.

Edited December 27, 2018 by MamaSprout

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

For various reasons I would like to have an outside verification for dd's classes this year... I want her to have something besides Mom grades for placement (not trying for high school or college credits here).

If by "painless" you mean "not have to do additional prep/study", then I don't think standardized testing is the way to go for outside verification of home-awarded grades. Outsourcing a class to an online or local course provider would do that in the most painless way, as the student has test scores and grades awarded by someone other than the homeschool parent, and it is done on the material used in the course, so no additional prep/study required.

Any standardized test needs to be prepped for, as the material covered in the test will very likely a slightly different scope and sequence for high school level (SAT Subject tests), or for college level (AP and CLEP tests).

For "placement", colleges use Accuplacer, ASSET, or COMPASS, and those determine level of math, reading, and writing (and there are foreign language placement tests) to make sure the student has the requisite skills for taking college courses at that particular school.

The ACT/SAT will provide overall verification of home-awarded grades through the overall GPA and test score correlation. Here is a chart of the ACT score and GPA match-up; and there is the SAT score and GPA match-up. 

All that to say, if you plan to do any SAT Subject tests, or AP or CLEP tests, you will want to get the test prep materials specifically for those tests and be sure to cover all the material in your homeschool course that will be covered on the specific test. So, plan for additional time to cover that additional material, or, build your homeschool course around the specific topics and material that will be tested by the SAT Subject or AP or CLEP test.

BEST of luck. Warmly, Lori D.

 

[Roadrunner]

45 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

We do have two potential scenarios where we simply may need outside verification for placement, mostly to be in an AP class with a pre-req. I don't want her to be a summer or year removed from Chemistry and have her need to take someone's final exam. French would be for placement. I'm less concerned there b/c French is sort of year round for us.

 

For high school placement? I would check with a high school. Our high school asks for a kid to take Honors Chem final to place into AP Chem. Since SAT Chem exam is usually taken after AP Chem, I bet not a lot of people approach with this request. They have a similar approach for all courses with prerequisites. 

Oh and I just want to add that those placements will be a lot, lot, lot easier that either SAT or CLEP exams. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Roadrunner

[cbollin]

Oh, yes, I’m blushing that I didn’t understand it was about meeting pre req for high school. Thanks.

 

In that case, to make it as painless as possible, I’d just ask the ap course teacher what is needed to best prove pre req when mom was teacher of record in the pre req course. It’s ok to ask a year or so before needed (and yes, the teacher might change.)  It could be as easy as keeping tests and lab book for teacher to look at or doing the final exam at the right timing when taking the equivalent of pre req course. 

 

 

I’m not sure of other people’s opinions on this. I think doing something like CLEP for chemistry and then AP chemistry seems wrong path to approach the pre req for Chem.

 

just to make sure you know I'm probably not a good source for AP. My oldest was a triple STEM major in university (and graduated top of class) but never did AP classes. So I know nothing about how to get into an AP course in high school.

Edited December 27, 2018 by cbollin

[Roadrunner]

If your kid can do well on SAT chem, she probably doesn't need AP Chem course since most kids who take SAT Chem do so after the AP course. So yes, it's totally overdoing it for placement. And if you saw the textbooks generally used at schools for regular or Honors chem, you would understand what I mean. 🙂 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Roadrunner

[MamaSprout]

16 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

If you kid can do well on SAT chem, she probably doesn't need AP Chem course since most kids who take SAT Chem do so after the AP course. So yes, it's totally overdoing it for placement. And if you so the textbooks generally used at schools for regular or Honors chem, you would understand what I mean. 🙂 

I hadn't thought of that. When I looked something up on our state standards for chemistry, I remember thinking, "Wow we'll cover most of this in the first semester."

If she were to do the AP course, it's actually Biology.

This pops up every year. She wants to play a sport she can only get at the public school. She likes the coach, but isn't a star player. She's running out of youth drama. The high school has the classes she would need, but also have lots of pre-reqs attached to them. They don't really work with homeschoolers. Either you're in or you're not.

Later, she'll have another high school option that's only for Junior and Senior year. They do work with homeschoolers, but I don't want everything to be a portfolio, either.

I'm not sure anything will come out of it, but I'd rather think about this now instead of June. At this point, I think if she's serious about it, I need to enroll her in a couple of accredited classes through IU or BYU online high schools and let her test through, take the ACT and let everything else fall where it may.

Edited December 28, 2018 by MamaSprout

[MamaSprout]

Okay, so it is my turn to blush a bit. The ACT has nice little "college-ready" markers right on the score reports. It would be hard to argue against placing a student who meets those benchmarks into AP courses.

I also discovered that French 3 and up are actually community college dual credit courses offered on the high school campus, so I'll just have dd take the CC placement test at the end of the year (That's weird because the CC that offers the course is 3 hours away, but has statewide testing centers). I will have one of the local librarians proctor her midterm and final exam for chemistry. She'll probably do a physics and chemistry camp this summer, so our bases are nicely covered for placement.

Edited December 29, 2018 by MamaSprout

[katilac]

On 12/29/2018 at 5:08 AM, MamaSprout said:

  so our bases are nicely covered for placement.

 

That sounds like a very sensible plan, but don't be too surprised if the high school turns out to be not so sensible. Around here, the schools can do what they want for placement, which sometimes means taking their test and only their test. 

[8filltheheart]

On 12/29/2018 at 6:08 AM, MamaSprout said:

Okay, so it is my turn to blush a bit. The ACT has nice little "college-ready" markers right on the score reports. It would be hard to argue against placing a student who meets those benchmarks into AP courses.

I also discovered that French 3 and up are actually community college dual credit courses offered on the high school campus, so I'll just have dd take the CC placement test at the end of the year (That's weird because the CC that offers the course is 3 hours away, but has statewide testing centers). I will have one of the local librarians proctor her midterm and final exam for chemistry. She'll probably do a physics and chemistry camp this summer, so our bases are nicely covered for placement.

Also be aware that DE courses taught on high school campuses are often not accepted in the way that DE on CC campuses are accepted.  

[Roadrunner]

7 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Also be aware that DE courses taught on high school campuses are often not accepted in the way that DE on CC campuses are accepted.  

 

Do you have any research or links on this. I have been having a conversation with a local CC teacher about how the CC is expanding into high schools locally and how great it is that kids are taking truly college level courses. I didn’t realize those courses aren’t as widely accepted. 

[MamaSprout]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Do you have any research or links on this. I have been having a conversation with a local CC teacher about how the CC is expanding into high schools locally and how great it is that kids are taking truly college level courses. I didn’t realize those courses aren’t as widely accepted. 

Not 8, but the college dd is most interested told us already they won't accept any college credits taken on a high school campus. It's a thing you need to check with at individual schools, but I have heard that locally, too.

[MamaSprout]

10 hours ago, katilac said:

 

That sounds like a very sensible plan, but don't be too surprised if the high school turns out to be not so sensible. Around here, the schools can do what they want for placement, which sometimes means taking their test and only their test. 

Yeah... it would probably be a deal breaker if it was something unreasonable. There are some state EOC exams she would need to take if she graduated from local public high school, but it's easy stuff like algebra. Right now it's a less than 50/50 chance she'd even apply.

[Lori D.]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Do you have any research or links on this. I have been having a conversation with a local CC teacher about how the CC is expanding into high schools locally and how great it is that kids are taking truly college level courses. I didn’t realize those courses aren’t as widely accepted. 

I've also heard a few times in the past on these boards that some 4-year universities won't accept DE credits unless the courses were taken on the CC campus -- so no acceptance of DE credits taken thru a CC program run on a high school campus.

Alas, no links for you, but it may be because the CC courses taught on the high school campus are either vo-tech courses. Or because they are *high school* level (below a 100 in course number). Or because they are not true college level in volume and rigor of material.

As with any DE from any school, it's always best to research in advance to see if the future 4-year university accepts any credits from the CC, and if so, which credits (and also if the courses must be taken on the CC campus). Also a good idea to check in advance about which CLEP and AP tests are accepted (or not) by the future school, AND what is the total maximum transfer credits that the future 4-year school will accept: total transfer college credits + total DE credits + total credit-by-exam (AP, CLEP, DSST, etc.).

[katilac]

12 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Do you have any research or links on this. I have been having a conversation with a local CC teacher about how the CC is expanding into high schools locally and how great it is that kids are taking truly college level courses. I didn’t realize those courses aren’t as widely accepted. 

 

This article addresses that about halfway through, in the section titled Qualms About High School: https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2016/09/07/are-dual-enrollment-programs-overpromising.html

A few related articles are listed at the bottom. Bottom line, I wouldn't expect courses taught at high school to transfer unless there is an agreement with a specific college. For example, Bard College teaches college courses at a few high schools in my area. Obviously Bard is going to accept them! Because it's Bard, I would certainly expect that more universities would accept them as opposed to CC courses taught at high school, but I would not be banking on it. 

 

[mom1720]

21 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Also be aware that DE courses taught on high school campuses are often not accepted in the way that DE on CC campuses are accepted.  

 

And just to add to more confusion -- my son's college doesn't accept any DE classes that are used to fulfill high school requirements even if taken at the CC campus. You really have to check on a school by school basis.