Perspective needed please re. older siblings sharing bed

[bodiesmom]

My dh and I just had a heated discussion and we came away holding 2 completely different views. This isn't a JAWM. I need to see if I'm totally off base here.

Our dd15 and ds12 both have their own rooms with their own beds, however they have both chosen to sleep together in the same room. Both are sleeping in a king sized bed, composed of two separate twin mattresses (neither have felt comfortable sleeping alone in their rooms since we moved to our new home several years ago. I've tried many different tactics in getting them to be comfortable in their rooms, all to no avail. One always ends up on the floor of the other's room). 

Dh announced this morning that he wants to separate them due to his concerns over what people at school would think should this ever "get out". I tried to explain that this is what they have both chosen to do, there is nothing wrong with it, and at some point they will want their own privacy and the transition to their individual rooms/beds will naturally occur (on their own timing). His thought is that they "should" be sleeping in their own beds, and we need to "make" that happen (because of what could happen if kids found out). My thought is I don't care what other kids think as long as dd and ds are comfortable with this sleeping arrangement (and that they are getting adequate sleep!). When their need for privacy becomes paramount, they will make that transition (which I can see will happen soon).  I feel like he is introducing the shame and creep-factor into this arrangement by making it into a big deal. 

Am I missing something? Is this actually an unhealthy situation that I am not seeing? 

[mommyoffive]

Would he be more ok with it if you pulled apart the mattresses and it was just 2 twin beds in the room? 

[maize]

Not unhealthy, no.

And making them move to their own beds because a parent thinks it is not socially acceptable...well, you have to analyze then what lesson you are teaching about conforming to hypothetical peer pressure.

Would your kids be mortified if other kids found out and teased them?

Most likely this will resolve naturally in the near future.

Edited December 21, 2018 by maize

[vonfirmath]

I would not call it an unhealthy situation. Throughout much of history, families all slept together in the same room.  Even now, in Honduras, it is considered "great" if the family as a whole has 1 bed for every two people in it. And lots dont have that many beds.  So you know people are sharing beds (and on much smaller mattress than our king sized)

 

It is not the culture in America, though, for this to happen. If both are choosing to do it I'd be inclined to allow them to share a room. But it is also important for you and your husband to be on the same page. Maybe your husband is seeing something you are missing that is causing him to have concerns he doesn't want to voice?

[freesia]

I would be uncomfortable with it.  I do see what you are saying and as your ds reaches 13 it is likely he won't be comfortable with it anymore.  However, your dh is their parent, too, and if he is uncomfortable with it now, I would treat his opinion with respect.  You can transition them without shame and creep-factor (and, in fact, it's possible that waiting will introduce those, too.)

[Storygirl]

If they really need to sleep in the same room, can you replace the king sized bed with two twins or a bunk bed? Sleeping in the same room seems okay to me, but sleeping in the same bed is iffy at that age. Not because of what others will think, but just out of caution for their own development.

[gardenmom5]

I would be concerned about their anxiety levels if they feel they need to be that close to each other to feel 'safe' enough to go to sleep.   are there any other indications of anxiety?   was this drive more by one sibling than the other?

[Annie G]

I wouldn’t have a problem with them sleeping in the same room but I would prefer that they separate the two beds.  I see it as they currently need to sleep that close together like other people might need a night light, tv on, a certain lovey or blanket.  Bedtime rituals are calming but you want to encourage a level of independence.  And they might not outgrow the need at the same time, and then what? 

[SKL]

I agree with at least separating the beds into two twin beds with space between them.

It's probably fine, and one assumes it is a very short time now before one or the other has a need for more privacy.  I would make sure they have the ability to change the arrangement at any moment vs. having to rearrange furniture etc.

Hard to say whether this is healthy or unhealthy - it really depends on what's going on when nobody is looking and in each child's mind.  I've seen dads sleep with their teen daughters (other culture) and all sorts of other arrangements.  It could be perfectly innocent.

But for me, I would discourage this, because I've also known of many times when things got inappropriate without the parents realizing it at first.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

If they are content, leave them be.

[bodiesmom]

Yes, anxiety is at play with both of them...whole 'nuther post on that topic.

I need to clarify-Dh is ok with them sleeping in the same room. At the very least he wants to separate their twin mattresses. So, instead of the mattresses being side by side, which he isn't ok with, he IS comfortable with them being separated. 

I agree in that there is a way to do this without introducing the creep/shame factor, but the way he proposed it is what got my feathers ruffled. It didn't matter to him what the kids were comfortable with. He indicated that it didn't matter what they thought. 

I guess it is bothering me because he "seems" more concerned over what other people think about this arrangement more than how it is benefiting them both. He typically doesn't share his opinion so forcefully so that is another reason why I'm wondering if I'm being blind to something....

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

 He typically doesn't share his opinion so forcefully so that is another reason why I'm wondering if I'm being blind to something....

Possibly he has or knows of some childhood experience that makes him see bad possibilities.

Maybe you could ask him about this in a calmer moment.

[bodiesmom]

5 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I wouldn’t have a problem with them sleeping in the same room but I would prefer that they separate the two beds.  I see it as they currently need to sleep that close together like other people might need a night light, tv on, a certain lovey or blanket.  Bedtime rituals are calming but you want to encourage a level of independence.  And they might not outgrow the need at the same time, and then what? 

These are my thoughts exactly. They are "self-medicating" for their nighttime anxieties.

The ironic thing is is that I have been the driving force in the past in getting them to sleep in their own rooms. I've tried everything, but ultimately we end up with one or the other in the other's room on the floor. It was always "my" job to get them to be comfortable/independent enough to sleep in their own rooms. Now that we have a system that everyone is comfrotable with (and getting quality sleep with), he voices his opinion. 

[Pen]

I know a number of bed sharing teens situations that have been fine.   When I’ve been in some other countries it was standard.

[bodiesmom]

17 minutes ago, maize said:

Not unhealthy, no.

And making them move to their own beds because a parent thinks it is not socially acceptable...well, you have to analyze then what lesson you are teaching about conforming to hypothetical peer pressure.

Would your kids be mortified if other kids found out and teased them?

Most likely this will resolve naturally in the near future.

This is my concern-what are we teaching the kids when we enforce changes based on what he "thinks" is socially unacceptable? 

Their older brother has harassed them both in the past and they just.don't.care. Their need to feel secure and safe at night trumps the grief their bother gives them.

I do see this resolving naturally in the near future. There was a recent argument (at 6 in the morning) when she wanted to come in and get dressed for school. Usually he is up before her but this particular morning he slept in. He didn't' want to get out of bed. She wanted her privacy. A shouting match ensued. Ultimately he left. When he came to complain to me, I explained to him (for the umpteenth time) that if he wants to sleep in and have peace and quiet in the mornings, he needs to sleep in his own bed, in his own room. 

[bodiesmom]

23 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

If they really need to sleep in the same room, can you replace the king sized bed with two twins or a bunk bed? Sleeping in the same room seems okay to me, but sleeping in the same bed is iffy at that age. Not because of what others will think, but just out of caution for their own development.

They are two separate twin mattresses, just placed next to each other in a trundle bed

[KungFuPanda]

I’m not sure the transition is going to happen naturally with your kids. They’re a little past the age when most kids have opted for their own space. Sharing a room isn’t really weird, but needing to share a bed at this age is worth investigating and dealing with. 

The odds that it’ll “happen naturally” with both kids at the same time are slim, so either way this is an issue you’re going to have to deal with. Kids that age shouldn’t have too much anxiety to sleep in their own beds or even in their own rooms. I say this as a parent who believes little kids sleep better together. We had a brother/sister room “like on Dragon Tales” at my kids request until the older one wanted space. 

I think this problem might be a little bigger than who sleeps where at night. Maybe you need to do this in phases. Put a nightstand between the beds, then put them on opposite walls, eventually add a curtain, then transition to separate rooms in the end. Do this over a month or two. At that age they should be able to sleep alone without getting upset and I would seek help if they couldn’t. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by KungFuPanda

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would be extremely uncomfortable with this during puberty. 

[bodiesmom]

24 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I would be concerned about their anxiety levels if they feel they need to be that close to each other to feel 'safe' enough to go to sleep.   are there any other indications of anxiety?   was this drive more by one sibling than the other?

When one has a sleepover with a friend, or is away at camp or whatnot, ultimately the other "always" ends up in our room. on the floor,  by morning.At this point it is a mutual arrangement.

[moonflower]

I understand not wanting to sleep alone.  I had high anxiety as a kid and couldn't sleep in my own room; I stayed up until the wee hours being afraid of burgulars and murderers and rapists and a zillion other things.

But I don't think they need to share an actual bed.  I do think that at that age, that's strange.  

[KungFuPanda]

5 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

When one has a sleepover with a friend, or is away at camp or whatnot, ultimately the other "always" ends up in our room. on the floor,  by morning.At this point it is a mutual arrangement.

I think your husband’s and other son’s instincts that this is not normal seem accurate. However, the co-sleeping dependency could be a symptom and not the actual problem. This isn’t about conforming to society. It’s about abnormal and untreated levels of anxiety. The 15-year-old could be in college in three years. You WANT her to be able to comfortably sleep alone by then. 

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I’m not sure the transition is going to happen naturally with your kids. They’re a little past the age when most kids have opted for their own space. Sharing a room isn’t really weird, but needing to share a bed at this age is worth investigating and dealing with. 

The odds that it’ll “happen naturally” with both kids at the same time are slim, so either way this is an issue you’re going to have to deal with. Kids that age shouldn’t have too much anxiety to sleep in their own beds or even in their own rooms. I say this as a parent who believes little kids sleep better together. We had a brother/sister room “like on Dragon Tales” at my kids request until the older one wanted space. 

I think this problem might be a little bigger than who sleeps where at night. 

Yes, I absolutely agree (the problem being bigger than sleeping locations)  and it is being dealt with. 🙂 

We are definitely on the cusp of this needing to change due to individual needs coming into play or due to parental involvement. It's just hard to find where that line is, you know? I don't want to "enable" this behavior, but I also don't want to mess with something that is working and they are happy with, especially when anxiety is involved. I'm not against separating them at all (I mentioned earlier that I have been the driving force with past attempts). I guess it's just the way he implied it was "wrong" without giving any consideration to their anxiety. 

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think your husband’s and other son’s instincts that this is not normal seem accurate. However, the co-sleeping dependency could be a symptom and not the actual problem. This isn’t about conforming to society. It’s about abnormal and untreated levels of anxiety. The 15-year-old could be in college in three years. You WANT her to be able to comfortably sleep alone by then. 

Good point. 

This is what I need to hear. Thank you. 

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

They are two separate twin mattresses, just placed next to each other in a trundle bed

 

I don’t even see the issue there. I lived in New York City for some years where many kids shared like that till they left parent home. 

 

Good sleep is extremely important. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Pen

[Bluegoat]

I don't see this as a problem in itself now, but once your ds is a bit older I do think he kids will need a little more privacy. Even in places and times when bed sharing amog adults was standard, there is usually post-puberty a separation of the sexes.

THat being said - my guess would be that before long, one or the other - more likely your dd - will want to have their own space.  So - i'd tend not to go out and get new beds or bedding, unless you really want to get rid of the bigger bed.  

If time goes by and it looks like things are't changing, I'd just either change the beds, or insist on different rooms, and tell them that they are old enough that boys and girls need separate spaces.  Your dd might understand a bit better and be the one to talk to first.  If sleeping alone is still an issue, deal with it separately.  

I'd not bring up what others will think, they are old enough to know and decide if they care.  All the better IMO if they don't.  Maybe if someone says something they will change their minds and wish they had cared, but they aren't glass.

 

[bodiesmom]

Thank you Hive, for being gentle, yet real.

I appreciate it immensely!

Christmas break is starting-sounds like a good time to gradually change this up and allow their bodies to become accustomed to sleeping in their own rooms. As I reflect on the past few months, there are several signs that both are heading toward that direction but perhaps aren't quite sure how to break out of this co-dependent habit. 

[KungFuPanda]

Just now, Pen said:

 

I don’t even see the issue there. I lived in New York City for some years where many kids shared like that till they left parent home. 

This is true and my MIL grew up this way in Brooklyn. However, she was ABLE to sleep without her brother in the room. Sharing space isn’t in any way wrong, but that’s not the problem here.

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

This is true and my MIL grew up this way in Brooklyn. However, she was ABLE to sleep without her brother in the room. Sharing space isn’t in any way wrong, but that’s not the problem here.

Spot on, again. 

You're speaking my language. This is exactly what I would be telling a friend if she came to me with this...

I love this board for fleshing out issues!

[Arcadia]

4 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

I guess it's just the way he implied it was "wrong" without giving any consideration to their anxiety. 

 

What’s his family culture? For my husband and mine, sharing of a bedroom for brothers and sisters is only done if there isn’t enough bedrooms to go around, as in sons to a room and daughters to a room. Even then, when there are only two bedrooms (master and kid bedrooms), the son might end up on a sofa bed in the living room while the daughter gets the kid bedroom at night due to daughters being higher up in priority for privacy. 

I shared a bedroom with an only brother who is nine years younger. People (non-relatives) kept asking when my parents were going to upgrade to a three bedroom home. My SAHM aunt had three sons, one daughter, a single sister and her dad to a room. Since her husband is paying the bulk of the expenses for her dad, no one said anything and just accepted that my aunt couldn’t afford a bigger home.

[mamakelly]

I wouldn’t be as concerned with them sleeping in the same room, as I would be about them in the same bed. And honestly, if CPS ever caught wind of that, it would probably raise some red flags. 

[hippiemamato3]

I would separate them at those ages. 

[bodiesmom]

2 minutes ago, mamakelly said:

I wouldn’t be as concerned with them sleeping in the same room, as I would be about them in the same bed. And honestly, if CPS ever caught wind of that, it would probably raise some red flags. 

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

[bodiesmom]

5 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

What’s his family culture? For my husband and mine, sharing of a bedroom for brothers and sisters is only done if there isn’t enough bedrooms to go around, as in sons to a room and daughters to a room. Even then, when there are only two bedrooms (master and kid bedrooms), the son might end up on a sofa bed in the living room while the daughter gets the kid bedroom at night due to daughters being higher up in priority for privacy. 

I shared a bedroom with an only brother who is nine years younger. People (non-relatives) kept asking when my parents were going to upgrade to a three bedroom home. My SAHM aunt had three sons, one daughter, a single sister and her dad to a room. Since her husband is paying the bulk of the expenses for her dad, no one said anything and just accepted that my aunt couldn’t afford a bigger home.

He lived alone with his dad and sister lived with his mom (parents divorced when they were young)

[happi duck]

As mentioned upthread, I wonder about them both wanting to split at the same time.  Might be better for parents to say it's time rather than feeling "rejected" by a sibling who has been an anxiety comfort.

[bodiesmom]

5 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

I would separate them at those ages. 

I'm going to have another discussion with DH and come up with a game plan that will move towards this direction. 🙂 

[bodiesmom]

Just now, happi duck said:

As mentioned upthread, I wonder about them both wanting to split at the same time.  Might be better for parents to say it's time rather than feeling "rejected" by a sibling who has been an anxiety comfort.

Yes! I think you verbalized something that has been at the back of my mind....good point happi duck! Thank you~

[mamakelly]

4 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

Well it originally sounded like 2 opposite gender teen siblings sleeping in the same bed. Yes, I think that would raise some issues. It may be culturally appropriate in some places, but it’s definitely not common here. If anyone were to report it, I’d think they’d consider it cause for investigation.

[hippiemamato3]

8 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

Yes. You'd be surprised how often incest/abuse happens in situations like this. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, bodiesmom said:

It didn't matter to him what the kids were comfortable with. He indicated that it didn't matter what they thought. 

I guess it is bothering me because he "seems" more concerned over what other people think about this arrangement more than how it is benefiting them both. He typically doesn't share his opinion so forcefully so that is another reason why I'm wondering if I'm being blind to something....

 

9 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

He lived alone with his dad and sister lived with his mom (parents divorced when they were young)

 

During my parents generation (born during WWII), many divorce cases that my parents know have all kids going to the mother, or boys go with dad and girls go with mom. Maybe it is emotional baggage causing his outburst.

[bodiesmom]

24 minutes ago, mamakelly said:

Well it originally sounded like 2 opposite gender teen siblings sleeping in the same bed. Yes, I think that would raise some issues. It may be culturally appropriate in some places, but it’s definitely not common here. If anyone were to report it, I’d think they’d consider it cause for investigation.

 

23 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Yes. You'd be surprised how often incest/abuse happens in situations like this. 

Thank you both- this angle honestly wasn't on my radar (as far as CPS being alarmed over a situation such as this). Thank you for bringing it to my attention

[StephanieZ]

I think it's inappropriate, and I'm pretty darn open minded. I'd simply provide them each with a room of their own. Move their "stuff" and provide a bed. Ideally, since they are close, the rooms could be next door to each other, and the new room(s) could provide some comfy co-studying, co-hanging out space -- I.e., a couch area for reading, or a double desk study area . . . each room could have space for comfortable dual hanging out . . . without sharing a bed. 

If you must keep them together in the same room, I'd consider "loft" style beds, with the bed(s) up top and the underneath part being desk and/or couch/play area. Perhaps one "loft" style bed and one regular bed? But, really, I'd at least provide separate rooms if at all possible, even if they don't get used frequently. 

I do think it's inappropriate at that age to share a room and share a bed as well. I think each child *needs* ready access to private space on a daily basis. If for no other reason than allowing for healthy sexual development. 

FWIW, one of my best friends has this "issue" with two of her kids. What she did was GIVE them each their own rooms . . . but one of the rooms has bunk beds, so the other kid often sleeps in there (as does their youngest, lol), but each child has their own bed and officially also their own room. 

[EmseB]

I get that there are all sorts of reasons that people had/have to share beds, but honestly, I would think it really strange if I had a 15 year old son who wanted to sleep in the same bed with his preteen sister. There's just so much development happening during those ages that I think privacy in sleeping and changing and everything else is important. I don't care if I've been conditioned that way societally or culturally or whatever, I don't think I'd allow those ages to sleep together in the same bed if I could at all help it. Personally I'd prefer them to have separate rooms, but at the least I would say separate beds. The fact that the 15yo doesn't want privacy from the preteen would be concerning to me.

[Soror]

For reference, my 4 kids all have separate rooms and beds but all my 3 girls (11.5, 9, and 6) sleep together 99% of the time. I have no issue w/ my same-sex siblings sharing a bed until they leave the house, I think is quite traditional really as most didn't have multiple bedrooms for all of their kids. BUT I'd balk at this. I think the idea to have a bunk bed where they each sleep on their own mattress is maybe an intermediary step but a king size bed w/ 2 mattresses is pretty much sharing a bed IMO. It looks like maybe you need to look at treating the anxiety.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

 

I think it could depend on exactly where you are.  And I am presuming that they are not having sexual intercourse.  

I was a foster mom in past, and things that wsere issues for CPS were not merely 2 kids choosing to be sleeping in same room or in same bed either.  

 Exception being that in a certified foster care home, each child had to have own room unless they were siblings (I don’t recall gender being mentioned).   However, I am not sure if even in a foster home sharing would have been a problem if it was the kids’ own mutual choice. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, mamakelly said:

Well it originally sounded like 2 opposite gender teen siblings sleeping in the same bed. Yes, I think that would raise some issues. It may be culturally appropriate in some places, but it’s definitely not common here. If anyone were to report it, I’d think they’d consider it cause for investigation.

 

So far as I know, if anyone reports anything it has to be investigated.  

[Pen]

A very common question that arises in custody litigation is whether it is illegal for a brother and sisterto share a bedroom. The short answer is: No. It is not illegal in any state for opposite-sex siblings to share a bedroom. That is true for children of any age -- infants, young children and teenagers.Apr 7, 2018

Can a Brother and Sister Share a Bedroom | ...

[hippiemamato3]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

A very common question that arises in custody litigation is whether it is illegal for a brother and sisterto share a bedroom. The short answer is: No. It is not illegal in any state for opposite-sex siblings to share a bedroom. That is true for children of any age -- infants, young children and teenagers.Apr 7, 2018

Can a Brother and Sister Share a Bedroom | ...

Sharing a bedroom is not the issue - teenagers of the opposite sex sharing a BED is. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm agreeing with the majority here, separate the beds.  

Let them share a room, but separate the beds as a baby step towards more independent sleeping.  This seems like a ridiculously easy solution to calm your DH, reduce potential teasing, eliminate anyone's "suspicions," etc.  

I agree you DH is approaching this from a wrong angle.  But if the arrangement has been bothering him for a long time, maybe this is just another desperate effort to get support in resolving the situation.  

If you haven't already consulted a doctor about anxiety, I think you're past due.  It's possible there is a major problem, and it's also possible that this was a once comforting habit that has now just become a "bad" habit.  It may be you have to do the toddler thing where every single time they get out of bed, you need to gently walk them back to their own sleeping space and stay with them until they are asleep, and gradually wean them off of that scaffolding over time.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

In countries where everyone is in the same room, there is still same sex sibling/parents sharing a bed instead of opposite sex siblings.  And there is often a curtain hung up to divide the room for some privacy.  Also- having more people in the room is actually a deterrent for inappropriate sexual situations.  Though even in those countries there is abuse and incest.

As a pastor's wife who has dealt with more than one troubled family, I have never met a parent who knew that abuse was happening before it was way too late and even then they were terribly shocked that something happened.

A lot of unhealthy situations develop where unmedicated anxiety or other mental health issues were untreated or treated inadequately.  The anxious person can inappropriately attach to someone as a way of coping and that is not healthy.

I apologize for being a bit blunt here.  I am not saying that anything is happening in the OP's situation.  What I am saying is that it allows for unhealthy dynamics to be present which could result in unhealthy and in some cases inappropriate relationships. 

[maize]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

So far as I know, if anyone reports anything it has to be investigated.  

This varies from state to state.