Copywork, dictation ?

[lulalu]

We are using WWE 1 for 1st grade. I bought the guide and am picking our own stuff from what we are reading. It is going well. 

My ds loves creating stories. He dictates and I write them down. We are working on making them flow and make sense. He often adds in odd things that don't fit or just drops a character. Normal stuff for 6 year olds. 

Should I be having him copy one sentence he has dictated to me? His sentences are not "good", and I feel like the point is to see and copy great works of writing. Or is this the baby steps that are needed? I do correct if he made a verb mistake or other big mistake and we talk about it. But more just wanting to know if he should be copying part of his own writing or just copying good works. 

[nixpix5]

I know when we did level 1 I had my 6 year olds basically narrating and copying great writing. Their narrations were a bit of word salad back then so like you, I didn't necessarily want them reinforcing that. As we went along, I began taking some of their narration sentences and gently reworking them with them. I would use it as an opportunity to dress up or amplify a simple sentence they may have come up with. I would say, for example, "instead of the 'bear sat' maybe we can describe it more. What is a more interesting word for sat" and once we collectively had something they would copywork it. I tend to do some splicing and off the cuff improvs to our curriculum when I see a hole or a potential easy way to combine something. Basically I tried to lovingly and gently guide them towards understanding how to construct a sentence. I also spent time modeling a narration and writing down on a dry erase board my own narration in steps. We didn't do this all of the time but it did seem to help their narration as they, for fun, began looking for "interesting words" to put in 🙂

[lulalu]

Thanks. I think waiting a little will help. He doesn't like to write anything on his own yet. I think I just need to trust it will come in time. 

[Farrar]

I never had my kids do copywork or dictation of their own writing. I know some people do, but that was never part of our process. It's definitely not a requirement. If you're doing WWE and letting him dictate his own little stories, then that's plenty for that age.

[Lecka]

I think it can help to think of ways you are working on it indirectly.  

To me, that is different from “letting it come.”  

Working on something indirectly is still addressing it, and sometimes in the most appropriate way.  

I think it’s 50/50 working on it, and letting it come, to work on things indirectly.  

But I don’t like to feel like I am only “waiting” because I will feel like I am not doing enough.  

But if I feel like I am working on it, just not directly, then I notice how I am working on the area or general skills, just in different ways than doing a certain specific skill in a certain way.  

[lulalu]

12 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think it can help to think of ways you are working on it indirectly.  

To me, that is different from “letting it come.”  

Working on something indirectly is still addressing it, and sometimes in the most appropriate way.  

I think it’s 50/50 working on it, and letting it come, to work on things indirectly.  

But I don’t like to feel like I am only “waiting” because I will feel like I am not doing enough.  

But if I feel like I am working on it, just not directly, then I notice how I am working on the area or general skills, just in different ways than doing a certain specific skill in a certain way.  

Good thoughts. 

So what are some ways to indirectly work on this? Just having him dictate stories to me and him seeing it written out? 

[lulalu]

23 hours ago, Farrar said:

I never had my kids do copywork or dictation of their own writing. I know some people do, but that was never part of our process. It's definitely not a requirement. If you're doing WWE and letting him dictate his own little stories, then that's plenty for that age.

Thanks. Good to know others have done this before me! 

[Farrar]

Just now, lulalu said:

Good thoughts. 

So what are some ways to indirectly work on this? Just having him dictate stories to me and him seeing it written out? 

I think the indirect thing is that... instead of working with him on his stories, you keep providing him with good examples of writing and teaching him about them in other contexts - that is, through the WWE work and copywork and just generally through read alouds. It's often a lot easier for kids to learn those things separately from their own writing (or their own storytelling, which is a form of pre-writing for sure).

IMHO... I think there's also a difference between letting things "just come" and waiting for the right moment. Like, teaching a 5 yo to tell time - you can do it, some 5 yos will get it right away... but a lot of them simply won't. And you'll spend tons of time on it. So you could teach them. Or you could wait for the right moment and spend a lot less time on. It's not that you're assuming that knowledge will just magically "happen" but rather that you don't need to rush. A lot of writing skills can be like that in the early grades. So it's also okay to just back off something if he's not getting it. And then come back to it. That's also not letting it "just come" but being purposeful.

[Lecka]

I would say — working on it indirectly means spending time in conversation with him and reading with him.  

Ways to tell a little part of a story can be to say “what do you think will happen next.”

Or you can both make up a different ending to a book.  You can make up a silly ending or what you would rather have happened.  

You can make a guess what the book is about from looking at the cover.  Both of you can do it.

Then you are modeling a good answer and he is making an answer too (though no need to stress if he’s not always in the mood) and gets a little practice.

This kind of thing is providing exposure and an adult model.  And, it’s breaking up a larger task into smaller parts.  

It’s also the kind of thing that is mentioned a lot as nice activities to do with a child that age.  

I think a lot of those nice activities really ARE working on things indirectly.  

I think something to keep in mind too, is it’s okay to collaborate with your son and not just be the person who takes dictation, when it is something that he is not yet doing independently.  You can see what he likes, but he might like to provide some details and then you make up a story.  Or you make up the beginning and he finishes.  Or he starts and you finish.  This is more direct but it is also more supported.  But it’s the kind of thing that can be casual too.  

So it’s like — on one hand, that’s casually wondering about what the squirrel is going to do at the park.  On the other hand, there are a lot of “telling a story” kinds of things that could come up in this conversation, and I *would* mentally count that as “working on it.”  

Sometimes it can be easier also to tell a story when a lot of the things you are talking about are right there to look at.  It can be easier to talk about sensory details in the setting.  Or just talk about some sensory details where you are, and that will build up some vocabulary for a future story with a setting in a park, maybe.  

I think too children learn a lot when they are engaged in some way and then a parent joins their engagement — so if you look for times they are interested in or noticing something (like a squirrel or whatever) it is a time you can try having some conversation or making up a story.  

Another idea is to tell about your day in an organized way with appropriate details.  This is a great strategy.  You can talk about things a little as you do them, and then it’s a great way to have sequencing and appropriate details.  And it can be something where you do part of the talking and he does part of the talking, possibly.  Or you can do it and provide him a model, and just ask him something he liked or something like that.  But that can be natural to talk about and interesting to kids.  At supper or bedtime or telling grandma or dad about the day. 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I think this website has a lot of adorable ideas for narrative development.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/

But you can find a lot of ideas for kids.

But you are already covering this with WWE I bet!  But if you are interested in more ideas you can look.  Or look on Pinterest for story strips or things like that.  

The main thing is that other narrative skills going along with telling a story are:  talking about your day (or personal events), and re-telling a story.  These go together.  So any of these is going to be working indirectly, and that is true whether you provide an adult model or your son talks himself.  Or if he talks a little here and there, or if you talk a little here and there. 

[HomeAgain]

We use a curriculum, but one of the things I continually go back to is this blog post: How To Teach Writing Without A Curriculum.  It all makes a ton of sense, but it's a really good guide for keeping expectations sound, especially in the younger years.  Like this part:

My biggest frustration in teaching younger elementary kids composition was how often they would phrase things awkwardly and the only thing I could tell them was, “We don’t say it like that, we would say it like this.” They don’t get it. They just made the change, and they begin thinking that writing is a mysterious, confusing, illogical requirement.

Better to surround them and fill them with lots and lots of spoken and written words so they have many language patterns fully internalized. Before they are required to put words on paper, they should be filled up and overflowing with words.

You know what we did in 1st grade:  Copywork (of my choice for 99.9% of it, with a very small amount being his narration).  Dictation, for spelling.  Oral narrations where I would write down his thoughts no matter how they came out.
2nd grade - copywork, dictation, narrations where, toward the end of the year he'd write what he had dictated to me earlier.
3rd grade - copywork, dictation, slightly more independent written narrations.

That copywork is always good writing, though. Narrations started out as play acting and then moved toward telling a story.  Grammar and concepts like learning how to be descriptive are slow and steady.  Writing is a much better subject in our house with this plan than if I try to deviate and jump to too much independence or responsibility yet.

[Lecka]

This is fairly new information to me I would have appreciated knowing when my kids were younger, but basically:

when you are mentioning the structure and the details, this is the same kind of skill with talking about personal events or re-telling a story.  But the child doesn’t have to make everything up and remember it as they go along, in the same way as they would with making it up.

And then you can use visual prompts if you want to help kids either remember the details or where they are in the structure.  Or it can be a way to practice with more support.  But that can be more on the classroom side where the child is just having fewer opportunities to do this 1:1 with an adult who is taking the time to talk and listen and help them verbalize their ideas.  Which you ARE doing.  

And it’s a judgment call if you think what you are doing now is a good place and a good part of the process, with you offering him support.  Or you can think you can step it back for a bit.  It is a judgment call and also personal preference.  

 

[Lecka]

I’ll add another thought.  

In playing there is a lot of narrative development.  

When kids play with toys they may be making up a story with them.  

When they play with other kids they may be acting out a story with them.  

This is supposed to be really, really good for narrative development.  

[Lecka]

I have read things saying that acting out and creating a narrative with other kids while playing, is one of the very best things for narrative development, actually.  

It’s not necessarily something a parent “does” but we can facilitate or provide the opportunity.  

[lulalu]

Thank you all!