Genealogy and very old secrets

[Catwoman]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Oh I didn’t say ALL of their secrets.  Just the part that relate to other humans existence.

 

I don’t understand what you mean by the bolded. (Not being snarky — it just seems very general and I’m not sure what you mean.)

[Frances]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Oh I didn’t say ALL of their secrets.  Just the part that relate to other humans existence. 

 

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

How will I know how she feels until I talk to her?  

You don’t talk to her unless she wants to contact you. If you must do something, you write to her and allow her to respond or not. Please try to have some empathy for this woman. Think about how traumatized your MIL is by the whole situation and how you would feel if it turns out a phone call from you is equally or more traumatizing for this woman.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Except for truths sake.  

 

But why does “truth’s sake” trump the feelings and emotions of an elderly woman who is a total stranger to you? Why do you need to know this “truth?” You still haven’t told us what possible benefit either you or your son will gain from it, other than possibly having a scandalous and salacious family story to tell at parties. 

Seriously, just because you’re researching your son’s genealogy doesn’t entitle you to know every detail about every single person with whom he may share some small amount of DNA.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

You don’t talk to her unless she wants to contact you. If you must do something, you write to her and allow her to respond or not. Please try to have some empathy for this woman. Think about how traumatized your MIL is by the whole situation and how you would feel if it turns out a phone call from you is equally or more traumatizing for this woman.

 

Yes, and it would be far worse for this woman, because she has no idea that Scarlett even exists. 

Frankly, if a stranger contacted me out of the blue about something like this, I would feel both violated and creeped out. Yuck.

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

You don’t talk to her unless she wants to contact you. If you must do something, you write to her and allow her to respond or not. Please try to have some empathy for this woman. Think about how traumatized your MIL is by the whole situation and how you would feel if it turns out a phone call from you is equally or more traumatizing for this woman.

Huh? How can she contact me if she doesn’t know I exist?

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

Yes, and it would be far worse for this woman, because she has no idea that Scarlett even exists. 

Frankly, if a stranger contacted me out of the blue about something like this, I would feel both violated and creeped out. Yuck.

Really? Not me . See people are different. 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But why does “truth’s sake” trump the feelings and emotions of an elderly woman who is a total stranger to you? Why do you need to know this “truth?” You still haven’t told us what possible benefit either you or your son will gain from it, other than possibly having a scandalous and salacious family story to tell at parties. 

Seriously, just because you’re researching your son’s genealogy doesn’t entitle you to know every detail about every single person with whom he may share some small amount of DNA.

Did I say anything about wanting to know every detail?

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Huh? How can she contact me if she doesn’t know I exist?

Because if you absolutely must do something, as you seem bound and determined to do, you write her and provide your contact information.

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

You don’t talk to her unless she wants to contact you. If you must do something, you write to her and allow her to respond or not. Please try to have some empathy for this woman. Think about how traumatized your MIL is by the whole situation and how you would feel if it turns out a phone call from you is equally or more traumatizing for this woman.

You want to know what caused my x MIL trauma? Lies.  Covering up and lying about her biology. 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Really? Not me . See people are different. 

And what if she is one who would be traumatized, scared, freaked out, or experience any other other negative reaction by your phone call? Are you not concerned about possibly inflicting unnecessary pain on another human being?

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

You want to know what caused my x MIL trauma? Lies.  Covering up and lying about her biology. 

But when she found out the truth, she was traumatized. Now you want to put this other woman in that same position. And to boot, you want to do it via a phone call out of the blue from a complete stranger.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Frances said:

And what if she is one who would be traumatized, scared, freaked out, or experience any other other negative reaction by your phone call? Are you not concerned about possibly inflicting unnecessary pain on another human being?

Well honestly I don’t understand how any person would be freaked out by questions about their family tree. But I don’t intend to be insensitive. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

But when she found out the truth, she was traumatized. Now you want to put this other woman in that same position. And to boot, you want to do it via a phone call out of the blue from a complete stranger.

You are very dramatic, not everyone reacts that way to their long dead relatives family tree.  My MIL spent a life time trying to cover up her befinnings.  It wasn’t the revealing of the facts of biology that caused her trauma.  It was the lies. The cover up. 

[Frances]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Well honestly I don’t understand how any person would be freaked out by questions about their family tree. But I don’t intend to be insensitive. 

I’m sorry, but you sound very insensitive in your replies on this topic,and you seem unable or unwilling to understand how someone else might not feel exactly as you do about this topic. For this woman’s sake, I hope she is thrilled by your phone call. Good luck!

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Did I say anything about wanting to know every detail?

 

You seem to want to know things that most people would consider to be none of your business.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well honestly I don’t understand how any person would be freaked out by questions about their family tree. But I don’t intend to be insensitive. 

 

Because many people don’t want to share personal information with total strangers who may share a bit of DNA with them. 

 

[Valley Girl]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

And what if she is one who would be traumatized, scared, freaked out, or experience any other other negative reaction by your phone call? Are you not concerned about possibly inflicting unnecessary pain on another human being?

Ah, but you see, that's all secondary because...you know, TRUTH. I understand people wanting to know their history. I don't understand wanting to know it regardless of whatever pain it might cause to other people. It's not like you're trying to find a bone marrow donor and save a life or something that has real value.

You've gotten many suggestions, Scarlett, to approach this topic with this elderly stranger by mail to give the lady time to process your request and make her own decision. Yes, that doesn't give you the immediate gratification of an out-of-the-blue phone call. And yes, you risk having her die before she can satisfy your curiosity. But it's the kinder, more compassionate course given the potential upset. Surely basic kindness still counts for something. Even when weighed against TRUTH.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’m sorry, but you sound very insensitive in your replies on this topic,and you seem unable or unwilling to understand how someone else might not feel exactly as you do about this topic. For this woman’s sake, I hope she is thrilled by your phone call. Good luck!

Thank you!  I hopes she is glad to hear from me.  The conversation isn’t necessarily going to go to maternity or paternity.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

Because many people don’t want to share personal information with total strangers who may share a bit of DNA with them. 

 

Well no one is required to discus anything with anyone,  

[Joker]

You would be insensitive by the very action of just calling her up with your questions. It's mind boggling to me that you don't see that.

If someone called me up at this moment with those types of questions and dialogue, I would actually just hang up and not answer repeat calls because I would think they're crazy or awful. I feel bad if someone is too old or doesn't have someone looking out for them that can help them do the same. 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m sorry, but you sound very insensitive in your replies on this topic,and you seem unable or unwilling to understand how someone else might not feel exactly as you do about this topic. For this woman’s sake, I hope she is thrilled by your phone call. Good luck!

 

I agree. I guess I just don’t understand how filling in a few of the blanks on the family tree is that incredibly important.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

Ah, but you see, that's all secondary because...you know, TRUTH. I understand people wanting to know their history. I don't understand wanting to know it regardless of whatever pain it might cause to other people. It's not like you're trying to find a bone marrow donor and save a life or something that has real value.

You've gotten many suggestions, Scarlett, to approach this topic with this elderly stranger by mail to give the lady time to process your request and make her own decision. Yes, that doesn't give you the immediate gratification of an out-of-the-blue phone call. And yes, you risk having her die before she can satisfy your curiosity. But it's the kinder, more compassionate course given the potential upset. Surely basic kindness still counts for something. Even when weighed against TRUTH.

I have no idea why a letter is assumed to be so much more compassionate.  But I don’t trust a letter to reach the right person. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well no one is required to discus anything with anyone,  

 

But why even bother the poor woman at all? Why is this “truth” so important to you that you don’t seem to care at all about how your quest to uncover the truth behind an old family secret may affect that elderly lady?

[Valley Girl]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I have no idea why a letter is assumed to be so much more compassionate.  But I don’t trust a letter to reach the right person. 

It's more compassionate because you're not putting her on the spot or requiring an immediate response. It's more compassionate because she can have time to process her feelings about your request before responding. If you have the name and address of the person, then you're either going to reach the right person or you're not.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Joker said:

You would be insensitive by the very action of just calling her up with your questions. It's mind boggling to me that you don't see that.

If someone called me up at this moment with those types of questions and dialogue, I would actually just hang up and not answer repeat calls because I would think they're crazy or awful. I feel bad if someone is too old or doesn't have someone looking out for them that can help them do the same. 

 

I’m so glad to hear that I’m not the only one who would react that way. 🙂

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Joker said:

You would be insensitive by the very action of just calling her up with your questions. It's mind boggling to me that you don't see that.

If someone called me up at this moment with those types of questions and dialogue, I would actually just hang up and not answer repeat calls because I would think they're crazy or awful. I feel bad if someone is too old or doesn't have someone looking out for them that can help them do the same. 

Well it is mind boggling to me that anyone would be freaked out by a phone call about genealogy.  Hi I am doing genealogy.  I have connected your name to a woman who lived with my sons family in 1930....is it possible she was your mother?  How is that intrusive?

Regardelss, all of the comments make me realize I don’t agre with you at all.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

Scarlett,

You have received many replies from people explaining to you that this woman may find your call upsetting and traumatizing.  Just because you personally wouldn't feel that way doesn't mean that others won't.  People have been telling you of examples where some have experienced trauma and would rather let sleeping dogs lie.  Nothing you have said here convinces me that you have a right to the information you seek, that your curiosity trumps an old woman's peace of mind.  To continue to pursue this seems cruel and heartless.  Just because you have an attitude of "so what" doesn't meant that others feel the same.  

Not knowing who one's great grandparents are is not a big deal.  I don't know who mine were on my dad's side.   We have no records.  You know what?  I can't think of any way my life would not have improved one bit knowing that information.  The only great grandparent I really cared to know about what the one I had a relationship with before he died.  I just can't comprehend why this is so vitally important that you would risk upsetting an elderly woman. It hurts my heart to think that someone would have bothered one of my relatives trying to dredge up old pain just for their own curiosity. 

(And my family does have some "secrets."  But I respect that they may not be mine to know.  And I can go to my grave without those "mysteries" solved.)

[Catwoman]

Just now, Valley Girl said:

It's more compassionate because you're not putting her on the spot or requiring an immediate response. It's more compassionate because she can have time to process her feelings about your request before responding. If you have the name and address of the person, then you're either going to reach the right person or you're not.

 

Yes, and if someone in the household keeps the letter from her, I would assume they would have a good reason for doing so — most likely that they don’t want their mom or grandma to be upset or to have old wounds dredged up from the past.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well it is mind boggling to me that anyone would be freaked out by a phone call about genealogy.  Hi I am doing genealogy.  I have connected your name to a woman who lived with my sons family in 1930....is it possible she was your mother?  How is that intrusive?

Regardelss, all of the comments make me realize I don’t agre with you at all.  

 

Because it’s none of your business. It just isn’t.

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Joker said:

You would be insensitive by the very action of just calling her up with your questions. It's mind boggling to me that you don't see that.

If someone called me up at this moment with those types of questions and dialogue, I would actually just hang up and not answer repeat calls because I would think they're crazy or awful. I feel bad if someone is too old or doesn't have someone looking out for them that can help them do the same. 

Crazy or awful to ask a few questions about census records from 90 years ago? See I find that response bizarre. 

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Crazy or awful to ask a few questions about census records from 90 years ago? See I find that response bizarre. 

 

But the thing is, pretty much every person who has responded to your posts in this thread has been in agreement. Doesn’t it even occur to you that if just about everyone here thinks you are wrong to call the woman out of the blue, maybe there might be a possibility that it might actually be wrong to call her? 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Catwoman
Can't get my “have” and “has” straight!

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

Scarlett,

You have received many replies from people explaining to you that this woman may find your call upsetting and traumatizing.  Just because you personally wouldn't feel that way doesn't mean that others won't.  People have been telling you of examples where some have experienced trauma and would rather let sleeping dogs lie.  Nothing you have said here convinces me that you have a right to the information you seek, that your curiosity trumps an old woman's peace of mind.  To continue to pursue this seems cruel and heartless.  Just because you have an attitude of "so what" doesn't meant that others feel the same.  

Not knowing who one's great grandparents are is not a big deal.  I don't know who mine were on my dad's side.   We have no records.  You know what?  I can't think of any way my life would not have improved one bit knowing that information.  The only great grandparent I really cared to know about what the one I had a relationship with before he died.  I just can't comprehend why this is so vitally important that you would risk upsetting an elderly woman. It hurts my heart to think that someone would have bothered one of my relatives trying to dredge up old pain just for their own curiosity. 

(And my family does have some "secrets."  But I respect that they may not be mine to know.  And I can go to my grave without those "mysteries" solved.)

None of us have any idea if this woman has peace of mind or not. Maybe her mother told her she had a child before her and the woman has always wished she  could track down her sibling.  Or maybe it was never mentioned and this woman will be thrilled to learn of a half sibling.  

I don’t plan to ring her up and say hey I think you have a half sibling!  It is just a conversation about her mother  and general genealogy. . 

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well it is mind boggling to me that anyone would be freaked out by a phone call about genealogy.  Hi I am doing genealogy.  I have connected your name to a woman who lived with my sons family in 1930....is it possible she was your mother?  How is that intrusive?

Regardelss, all of the comments make me realize I don’t agre with you at all.  

It is not necessarily saying these things that is intrusive, it is the why they are being said and where they are leading.  My great grandparents had boarders, that doesn't make their boarders any of my genealogy.  You are not trying to find out if this woman lived with your son's ancestors in 1930--you are trying to find out whether she is a half sister of your son's great aunt.  Are you going to be honest with the woman of why you are contacting her?

[Pickle Dust]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am working on my son’s genealogy.  There is a big mystery with his paternal grandmother.  The year she was born...when she was 3 months old, she showed up in a census as ‘adopted daughter’ of the two parents that raised her.  Also in that house at the time, was a mystery woman....named as a cousin to the head of house.  We have long suspected she was/ is the bio mom to my sons grandmother.  

I think I have found this woman....well....her trail....she died in 1974.  Biut along with finding her I think I found a child of hers...which would be a half sister to my sons grandmother....my xMIL....I have her FB page, her address, her land line phone number.....I am probably going to call her tomorrow.  

I have to keep in mind what I know and what I don’t know.  

So how do I go about calling an 84 year old woman and discussing this?

 

It seems to me that you can call her up and say that you are doing genealogy research on your family. Say that you are trying to determine whether the cousin to the head of the house is her mother.  That's it. Let the conversation flow naturally from there. Do not delve into the mystery about your son's grandmother's parents. This is an introductory, testing the waters, phone call. There is no good reason to spring on this lady that she may have a half sister she didn't know about. Especially not before you ask your ex-MIL if divulgng that information is okay with her, This is because you cannot let the cat halfway out of the bag. You have a half sister, but I am not going to tell you who she is... no, no, not a good plan if that indeed turns out to be the case. I firmly believe that your ex-MIL would have to give you permission to go further than the initial inquiry. All of this may be moot if the daughter's mother is not the cousin in question.

Personally, I would write to her. People like to get letters (except for me; I prefer texts). That way, she can call you if she wants to. I contacted an elderly relative during my geneology research, and she was delighted to talk with me. She was in her 90s, and I had a phone number only, and I used it.  As it turned out, she didn't know the information I was seeking and neither did anyone else she referred me to (other elderly relatives). She had posted her name and phone number on a genealogy message board asking basically for more information along the lines of that which I was seeking.

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Pickle Dust

[Valley Girl]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well it is mind boggling to me that anyone would be freaked out by a phone call about genealogy.  Hi I am doing genealogy.  I have connected your name to a woman who lived with my sons family in 1930....is it possible she was your mother?  How is that intrusive?

Regardelss, all of the comments make me realize I don’t agre with you at all.  

Here's one more reason someone might be freaked out by a phone call: identity theft. I don't EVER give out personal information of any kind to strangers who call me on the phone. Some of them have good stories to tell, too. I don't expect that to change your mind about anything, but you may find all you do is raise suspicions.

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Because it’s none of your business. It just isn’t.

you realize  that this information is generally considered to be a matter of public record, right?

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Pickle Dust said:

 

It seems to me that you can call her up and say that you are doing genealogy research on your family. Say that you are trying to determine whether the cousin to the head of the house is her mother.  That's it. Let the conversation flow naturally from there. Do not delve into the mystery about your son's grandmother parents. This is an introductory, testing the waters, phone call. There is no good reason to spring on this lady that she may have a half sister she didn't know about. Especially not before you ask your ex-MIL if divulgng that information is okay with her, This is because you cannot let the cat halfway out of the bag. You have a half sister, but I am not going to tell you who she is... no, no, not a good plan if that indeed turns out to be the case. I firmly believe that your ex-MIL would have to give you permission to go further than the initial inquiry. All of this may be moot if the daughter's mother is not the cousin in question.

Personally, I would write to her. People like to get letters (except for me; I prefer texts). That way, she can call you if she wants to. I contacted an elderly relative during my geneology research, and she was delighted to talk with me. She was in her 90s, and I had a phone number only, and I used it.  As it turned out, she didn't know the information I was seeking and neither did anyone else she referred me to (other elderly relatives). She had posted her name and phone number on a genealogy message board asking basically for more information along the lines of that which I was seeking.

 

Yea that is my intent.  

[Pickle Dust]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Yea that is my intent.  

 

So do it.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

Here's one more reason someone might be freaked out by a phone call: identity theft. I don't EVER give out personal information of any kind to strangers who call me on the phone. Some of them have good stories to tell, too. I don't expect that to change your mind about anything, but you may find all you do is raise suspicions.

Well of course.  I don’t plan to ask her to supply me with info.   Rather to confirm what I know.  Which is not her ss number or credit card numbers. 

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

you realize  that this information is generally considered to be a matter of public record, right?

Don't you have access to all of the information that is a matter of public record without contacting this woman?  The fact that some information is public record doesn't stop it from being intrusive for a person to pick up the phone and call someone to try to get more information than what is in the public record.  

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

you realize  that this information is generally considered to be a matter of public record, right?

 

Then get the public records. Why bother the woman at all?

[Scarlett]

Just now, Bootsie said:

Don't you have access to all of the information that is a matter of public record without contacting this woman?  The fact that some information is public record doesn't stop it from being intrusive for a person to pick up the phone and call someone to try to get more information than what is in the public record.  

It is a matter of confirming.....to be sure I am not on the wrong path.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

Then get the public records. Why bother the woman at all?

To confirm.  And why do you assume it is bothering her?  Maybe she will be thrilled to hear from me.  Or neutral. Or angry.  None of us know. 

[*****]

You asked:    

So how do I go about calling an 84 year old woman and discussing this?

It seems that most people on this site that responded agreed that you shouldn't call her and discuss this.  You asked for an opinion and now you are arguing about it since you don't like their answer.   What gives?

 

Really, when I think of it, when our grandparents pass on, many times our kids have never met them nor had any connection to them. Sad as it may seem, that is the way it is.  There was a biological connection, but that often is all there is.  There is no emotional tie.

 

I guess do what you want, but quit arguing about it.  There have been many reasons given, but you don't seem to want to think about what it would be like for an elderly person's viewpoint.  Be respectful to how she may take this, which could be upsetting to her. 

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well of course.  I don’t plan to ask her to supply me with info.   Rather to confirm what I know.  Which is not her ss number or credit card numbers. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It is a matter of confirming.....to be sure I am not on the wrong path.  

So you do not know the information for sure.  I would put this in the category of supplying you with information.  There is information that she may have that you would like to have--that is why you are contacting her.  

I would hope that the elderly in my family would not respond to these types of "confirmations"  Many of the passwords are things like "What is your mother's maiden name", "What town did your parents meet in", etc.  

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

 

 

So you do not know the information for sure.  I would put this in the category of supplying you with information.  There is information that she may have that you would like to have--that is why you are contacting her.  

I would hope that the elderly in my family would not respond to these types of "confirmations"  Many of the passwords are things like "What is your mother's maiden name", "What town did your parents meet in", etc.  

Right....I wasnt going to ask her to supply me with her mother’s maiden name,  good  grief,  rather I was going to have a conversation with her about what I know.  

Edited December 15, 2018 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, ***** said:

You asked:    

So how do I go about calling an 84 year old woman and discussing this?

It seems that most people on this site that responded agreed that you shouldn't call her and discuss this.  You asked for an opinion and now you are arguing about it since you don't like their answer.   What gives?

 

Really, when I think of it, when our grandparents pass on, many times our kids have never met them nor had any connection to them. Sad as it may seem, that is the way it is.  There was a biological connection, but that often is all there is.  There is no emotional tie.

 

I guess do what you want, but quit arguing about it.  There have been many reasons given, but you don't seem to want to think about what it would be like for an elderly person's viewpoint.  Be respectful to how she may take this, which could be upsetting to her. 

Well , my question was not should I call her. Rather how I should go about it. 

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well , my question was not should I call her. Rather how I should go about it. 

 

 

Yes, but then everyone said you shouldn’t call her. 

In retrospect, you probably should have made this a JAWM thread, but I’m sure you had no idea that people would object to your idea when you started it, and I can’t blame you for that. 🙂

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

It is just genealogy.  It isn’t a judgment on her life since obviously she can’t be held responsible for what her mother may or may not have done 90 years earlier.  

 

It's not just genealogy.  These are real people, not characters in a story. 

My 70 year old father still carries around a great deal of shame because his mother was conceived 3 months before her parents were married. It has utterly nothing to do with him, it happened nearly 100 years ago, and my grandmother has been dead for over a decade, but that's how he feels about it: embarrassment and shame.  *I* think it's silly to get upset about it. To me, it's just a colourful story.  To him, it's gossip about his  mother. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by MissLemon

[maize]

Scarlett, you came asking for advice. I don't think any of us here feel like calling this woman out of the blue is a wise step.

I'm a genealogy researcher. I do understand what you are trying to do. I have contacted distant relatives, done DNA tests, worked all kinds of angles to fit the puzzle pieces together.

I try hard to give elderly people space, to not pressure them or make them uncomfortable. I'd rather find a different way to approach a puzzle than risk doing that to an elderly person. In this case I really think a written letter would be the more respectful approach, less likely to feel intrusive or uncomfortable.

Edited December 15, 2018 by maize