Musing about Perfectionism vs. Excellence

[Guest]

Quote

I think social rewards can actually increase perfectionism.

YES! That was my point, which I must not have made clearly. You get the approval and then you know that only the top accolade makes everyone happy and approving. So the perfectionism is reinforced. 

When I was a kid and got that first test back with one red X on an answer, I probably thought something like, “Now my teachers and mom will not say I’m the kid all gold stars!” (Now that I think about it, those chart displays with colored stars were the most ridiculous of classroom tools. Displaying everyone’s grades in color-coded stars? Awful!) 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I agree that naming it should really help; personally I have high anxiety and have modeled naming that for DD13, as well as identifying hormonally driven emotions, but I hadn't thought of doing it w/ her perfectionism!

I think we (society) should not call this perfectionism at all, because people embrace that and use that term for their own pride. 

[Selkie]

As a perfectionist, I agree with the others who have said that perfectionism is genetic. Perfectionists are born with high levels of conscientiousness and it drives them to be vigilant and perform tasks well. They have a very strong sense of personal responsibility.

Wanting to do well to please others and fit in is a different issue, imo.

[SamanthaCarter]

8 hours ago, CaliforniaDreamin said:

I have to help my perfectionist reframe expectations since obviously they do not have a good sense of what appropriate expectations are.  Sometimes I use a scenario of "what would you say to (insert best friends name) if they got a 95 in Latin?"  Usually they are much kinder to said friend than themselves.  I ask them why they think that it is ok for said friend to make a 95 but not them?  Basically I am constantly challenging the assumption that perfectionism is expected, healthy, normal, etc..  I am challenging the voice in their head saying they have to be perfect.   We also practiced making mistakes and learning from them.  I praised mistakes and modeled using that as a learning opportunity.  For this child, learning to make mistakes was MORE important than getting all the answers right.  They needed to learn how to get some answers wrong and cope with those terrible feelings that created.

  I am not saying there wasn't wailing and gnashing of teeth.  We had so much drama over the years.  There have been lots of tears and talks but very slowly I have seen some improvement.  Just like anxiety I point it out when it rears its ugly head. "That is your perfectionism talking" or  "that is your anxiety telling you that right now."  I think just being able to name it and recognize it is important for kids.  I think it gives them a starting point to begin to develop coping strategies.  

 

This is good. Also, both mom and daughter should read and discuss the book “Mindset.” It will set you on the path of taking a step back and looking at situations to see if you are in a fixed or growth mindset. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

This is good. Also, both mom and daughter should read and discuss the book “Mindset.” It will set you on the path of taking a step back and looking at situations to see if you are in a fixed or growth mindset. 

I love that book.

[Donna]

12 hours ago, Quill said:

But what is the impetus for the intenal drive? For me, it was/has been approval and feeling worthy or care. “If I am not good/excellent/beneficial, I will be rejected. Therefore, I must be as good/excellent/beneficial as I can be so I will be cared for.”

For me, the impetus may have started out (in childhood) feeling worthy or fear of not being perfect enough. My father certainly didn't help with my perfectionism. He always pointed out my failures, "Why did you get a 99 and not a 100? (insert punishment of choice)" I felt like he only showed love when I was achieving something...perfect grades, sports accomplishments, good deeds, cleaning the house, cooking for the family, etc... When I look back on my childhood, though, the things I remember most vividly are the times I didn't measure up. 

I don't know. I may have been a perfectionist anyway. I know my dd has never been made to feel she must be perfect and her perfectionism reared its ugly head when she was so young. She was the youngest and the only girl and everyone always loved her and doted on her but she was very hard on herself even as young as two or three...for example, talking to violin teacher rather than trying something she couldn't do on the first try or running crying to her bedroom if she spilled something even though she was never in trouble for spilling something. Seeing my tendencies in her that young made me work hard to help her every way I could. I worked to change her mindset by being very careful how I phrased things- we practice to make things easier rather than practice makes perfect, allowing her ample time to experiment when practicing violin so she could make mistakes and turn them into something new, and making sure to love her for being her rather than anything she accomplished (this last may have been overdone because now when she accomplishes amazing things, to her, they are just, eh).

Now, for me anyway, it definitely anxiety driven. I cannot relax if my house is not clean or if I am going to be late to something even if it is out of my control like a traffic jam. I won't even speak in a group, for example at work, unless I am 100% sure I am correct even if everyone is just throwing ideas out to discuss and it has nothing to do with what others will think because everyone is just talking and some people's ideas are not accepted by the group and that's okay. I wish I could be more relaxed about things and I envy people who don't seem driven to try so hard but are happy with some things being good enough because, really, why does everything about me have to be to some impossible or nearly impossible standard? 

Maybe it is a personality trait or has to do with being introverted or maybe some people have more "self talk or self criticism" going on in their heads because I really don't feel like it has anything to do with social acceptance. I see people of all types accepted all the time and know people will accept me if I'm not perfect. I just don't feel comfortable inside myself with any perceived imperfection.

[Arcadia]

13 hours ago, Quill said:

But what is the impetus for the intenal drive? For me, it was/has been approval and feeling worthy or care. “If I am not good/excellent/beneficial, I will be rejected. Therefore, I must be as good/excellent/beneficial as I can be so I will be cared for.”

 

I am an agnostic all my life. For me, it’s about “god given gifts” that you are born with. So it’s a theological view of what was I born for (life mission) and how am I suppose to use my gifts to enrich other people’s (including strangers) life.  When it led to emotional burnout, that was when I step back and think because I do not think that god intend me to drive myself to burnout.

I was born premature and was in NICU for a long time. I never questioned being cared for since I am the youngest granddaughter on both sides and every relative was so scared I would die at infancy that they doted on me.

For DS14, it is similar. He is thinking about his “gifts” and thinking that he hasn’t utilized them fully. He has to come to terms his own way but he is less likely to burnout due to not being as “workaholic” as me.

4 hours ago, Quill said:

YES! That was my point, which I must not have made clearly. You get the approval and then you know that only the top accolade makes everyone happy and approving. So the perfectionism is reinforced. 

 

The problem I have with this is that take away the outside approval and perfectionism remains. Or that someone might never have received social approval but is still a perfectionist. 

I read the growth mindset book when it came out. The issue I have with it is that with some perfectionists there can be no end point. The goal post gets shift higher constantly. Its the negativity of always having room to grow and never reaching an end point. It’s exhausting.

I think perfectionism is kind of like autism in that there is a spectrum. Perfectionists are affected to different degrees.

[Kanin]

15 hours ago, Storygirl said:

And the flip side of perfectionism, for me, is that when I can't do something well, I give up. Or I don't even try. Or I procrastinate until I create a problem. And I beat myself up the entire time, because I know I am failing. Perfectionism doesn't mean actually keeping things perfect or doing things perfectly. Because there is the feeling of constant failure or the threat of failure, and with that looming, it's hard to accomplish things.

It's an internal thing, not an external thing. If you came into my house, you would not think, "A perfectionist lives here."

My DH does this. He will procrastinate until he absolutely has to do something (even though he's not even able to enjoy himself during the procrastinating, because of the task hanging over him), and then he will get upset that he has run out of time to do a good job. It's not fun at all.

As a very non-perfectionist myself, I find it hard to understand this part of his personality. I generally think people are pretty accepting and tolerant of others' mistakes/weaknesses, so I don't stress about doing an okay-but-not-great job at things. DH says I'm naive, and that the world is a dog-eat-dog place in many respects.

Looking at how I tend to complete tasks, I could really use a little bit more perfectionism - but just a little. I can see how perfectionism can really make people's lives miserable. 

[maize]

My mom was perfectionist about many things and it had nothing to do with social approval. It was more like an OCD thing. Social approval was never a motivating factor for anything my mom did, she's actually kind of oblivious to it 😄

[J-rap]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

My mom was perfectionist about many things and it had nothing to do with social approval. It was more like an OCD thing. Social approval was never a motivating factor for anything my mom did, she's actually kind of oblivious to it 😄

This is how it is with my family perfectionists, too.

[happi duck]

I don't think perfectionism always gets social approval.  I'm thinking about comments like "don't be such a perfectionist".

[MysteryJen]

I think perfectionism is a real problem and sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between a striver of excellence and a perfectionist. I think perfectionism is a limiting anxiety with terrible consequences of never trying anything new or hard. I was a perfectionist, anxious little girl with a perfectionist controlling mother. Elementary school was mostly terrible, because you could be perfect and I felt (rightly or wrongly, still not completely sure) that my mother expected that of me. Repeated failure (sports, music) shook me out of that and led me to be a striver of excellence -FOR ME and not for any sort of accolade. This has helped with staying home and not getting a paycheck or much outside respect.

When I saw the same tendencies in my oldest daughter, I reviewed her work with her- even things she did well, treating the wrong answers with indifference. That helped with the school work, but what really helped were sports. Swimming- no one wins all the time. And rock climbing, it is a sport where failure happens constantly, with immediate and powerful feedback. She is a high achiever now, but due to her large reservoir of experiences with failure, she is comfortable with adjusting goals or admitting falling short and moves on.  

[KathyBC]

Perfectionism is probably a spectrum, like most things. For the average perfectionist, which maybe we all at times suffer from, yes we're comparing others' highlight reels with our perceived failings, and we probably can use some humble self-talk to gain some perspective. "Okay, so I screw up or have an imperfect result. So what? Do I really think no one notices my failings? Or that they don't have failings too? Yes, I can get over myself and admit I don't know everything or don't always have 100% success."

Trying to recognize your own pride wouldn't necessarily apply to or help with perfectionism coupled with anxiety to the point where it borders on OCD, though.
I do see a difference there, for sure.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Donna said:

For me, the impetus may have started out (in childhood) feeling worthy or fear of not being perfect enough. My father certainly didn't help with my perfectionism. He always pointed out my failures, "Why did you get a 99 and not a 100? (insert punishment of choice)" I felt like he only showed love when I was achieving something...perfect grades, sports accomplishments, good deeds, cleaning the house, cooking for the family, etc... When I look back on my childhood, though, the things I remember most vividly are the times I didn't measure up. 

I don't know. I may have been a perfectionist anyway. I know my dd has never been made to feel she must be perfect and her perfectionism reared its ugly head when she was so young. She was the youngest and the only girl and everyone always loved her and doted on her but she was very hard on herself even as young as two or three...for example, talking to violin teacher rather than trying something she couldn't do on the first try or running crying to her bedroom if she spilled something even though she was never in trouble for spilling something. Seeing my tendencies in her that young made me work hard to help her every way I could. I worked to change her mindset by being very careful how I phrased things- we practice to make things easier rather than practice makes perfect, allowing her ample time to experiment when practicing violin so she could make mistakes and turn them into something new, and making sure to love her for being her rather than anything she accomplished (this last may have been overdone because now when she accomplishes amazing things, to her, they are just, eh).

Now, for me anyway, it definitely anxiety driven. I cannot relax if my house is not clean or if I am going to be late to something even if it is out of my control like a traffic jam. I won't even speak in a group, for example at work, unless I am 100% sure I am correct even if everyone is just throwing ideas out to discuss and it has nothing to do with what others will think because everyone is just talking and some people's ideas are not accepted by the group and that's okay. I wish I could be more relaxed about things and I envy people who don't seem driven to try so hard but are happy with some things being good enough because, really, why does everything about me have to be to some impossible or nearly impossible standard? 

Maybe it is a personality trait or has to do with being introverted or maybe some people have more "self talk or self criticism" going on in their heads because I really don't feel like it has anything to do with social acceptance. I see people of all types accepted all the time and know people will accept me if I'm not perfect. I just don't feel comfortable inside myself with any perceived imperfection.

This is very interesting to me. I can completely relate to anxiety-promoted perfectionism. But I feel as though I don’t have this anymore, or at least, it’s very infrequent. 

Before I had kids, I had extremely high (and frankly foolish) expectations of how immaculate my house had to be. (Good thing it was just a small townhouse at the time!) At that time, it was unthinkable that I would leave the house or go to bed with a fork left in the sink. I had a bunch of weird rules about how things must be. But I could not have maintained a standard like that once I moved to a big house and started having kids. 

My house is still pretty neat, but I don’t have anxiety wrapped up in how it must be every day. Even if a friend stopped by, I probably wouldn’t think about the many imperfect things about my house. I do still have an anxiety point, but it would have to be pretty messy before that gets triggered. 

For myself, a lot of those things have gone away. I no longer view myself as a perfectionist about much of anything. I do still have high standards about many things, especially when others will be assessing something (like if I’m hosting a party, say), but it doesn’t bother me much anymore if I can’t meet some standard. Because of my current health, I had to give over a number of things to others which I normally do, like the craft day at our co-op or a mom’s Christmas dinner I did last year. I actually had zero anxiety about whether these activities were being done well by others or not. I really just felt like, “Eh. Those other ladies seem plenty on-the-ball, so I’m sure it will be fine.” 

I don’t know exactly why this doesn’t affect me much anymore. I have thought some hormones are at least part of the picture. 

[Pen]

I don’t know anything about the book you read. 

I do think there is a problem with the word. It has at least 2 separate meanings:

1) For some people “perfectionism” means doing an excellent job.  And it might even be used about oneself in a self congratulating way — “I’m really a perfectionist about getting ____ done  just right.”  This can even be something said on a job interview as a backwards positive about oneself when asked about weaknesses.  

2) For others “perfectionism” means an inner demon they are wrestling with, as some people might have to wrestle with “depression” as an inner demon.  

I think it is the same word, but not on the same continuum.  

I think the two senses are at least as different as the word “mad” to mean angry versus to mean crazy. It isn’t a continuum of a madness spectrum from anger to insanity.  

There can be a spectrum of “perfectionism” of the inner demon type from mild to crippling, much as there can be a spectrum of depression from mild to crippling.  

I am guessing that you have not experienced the inner demon form of perfectionism and that the book you are reading is about dealing with this type of “perfectionism”. 

 

What I thought this thread was going to be about was whether trying to push ourselves or our kids to strive for excellence can lead to the second form of “perfectionism” and if so, how to avoid that.  

[Corraleno]

18 hours ago, Quill said:

I agree that it is anxiety driven. But there is an origination of that anxiety in being right, being the best, being above reproach. So there is this anxiety that if one is not good/excellent/perfect, then love and acceptance will be withdrawn. 

 

18 hours ago, Quill said:

But what is the impetus for the intenal drive? For me, it was/has been approval and feeling worthy or care. “If I am not good/excellent/beneficial, I will be rejected. Therefore, I must be as good/excellent/beneficial as I can be so I will be cared for.”

 

What you're describing here isn't what I would consider "perfectionism," though. The people I know that I consider perfectionists (including myself and DS) are not motivated by external factors at all. To me, being worthy of love, or earning social approval, are completely separate issues from the very intense, very internal need to get things exactly right.

To me, a person who is desperate to get an A on every assignment, so people will think she's smart and admire her, is a people-pleaser who needs external approval and validation, not a perfectionist. A perfectionist is someone who often invests waaaaay more time and energy in a project than is strictly necessary, because they are driven to make sure they have thought of every possible scenario, checked every possible resource, evaluated every possible argument, and made the best possible word choice in every sentence of every paragraph. It's working and reworking and re-reworking something to death because anything less than 110% of perfection means you didn't do your best.

Here's a perfect example:  In DS's data analysis course this semester, he realized partway through his research project that his data set didn't really lend itself to one of the components of the assignment, so he emailed the prof, who said it was fine for him to skip that part. Well, he couldn't bring himself to skip that part, so he spent days coming up with an alternative that would work with his data and fulfill that part of the assignment, and then he turned in a research report that was three times longer than required — for an assignment that was only worth 5% of the grade. And given the fact that he had a 99 average that class, he could literally have skipped the entire assignment and still gotten an A. But not only could he not bring himself to turn in something that was less than perfect, he pushed himself to create something that was beyond perfect (i.e. greatly exceeded the requirements), even for an assignment that would have zero impact on his final grade. 

That is not necessarily healthy — he was lucky that the hours and hours he invested in perfecting that assignment only cost him a lot of angst and many hours of sleep, rather than adversely impacting his grade in another class, and I do think this is going to bite him in the butt pretty hard at some point. But I know from personal experience how hard it can be for someone who knows they're capable of doing a perfect job to consciously do a less-than-perfect job just because it needs to get done. I'm old enough (and tired enough, lol) that I can do that with some things, but there are other things that I still can't bring myself to settle for less than (what I consider) perfect, no matter how much time it takes or how crazy it seems to other people.

[Selkie]

4 hours ago, OKBud said:

I've only read the OP and I'm sorry because this is a huge digression from the topic at hand.

But Brene Brown books are terrible 😁 

I mean really, really bad. 

She's trying to sound deep. Trying so hard. Failing. Big time. 

If anyone has a problem with what I am saying, no worries! Because a Brene Brown book informed me that outer critics don't matter. Only inner critics. 

Oh yeah. Totally agree. I heard so many accolades for her book Rising Strong so I gave it a try. It was unbearably awful - really, one of the worst books I've ever (partially) read. Just her rambling on and on about herself and throwing in a catchphrase every paragraph or two.

[maize]

4 hours ago, OKBud said:

I've only read the OP and I'm sorry because this is a huge digression from the topic at hand.

But Brene Brown books are terrible 😁 

I mean really, really bad. 

She's trying to sound deep. Trying so hard. Failing. Big time. 

If anyone has a problem with what I am saying, no worries! Because a Brene Brown book informed me that outer critics don't matter. Only inner critics. 

Brené Brown's discussion of shame has been very helpful to me as a person who almost never experiences feelings of shame; she helped me understand what several of the people in my life experience on a regular basis.  

[Guest]

Quote

To me, a person who is desperate to get an A on every assignment, so people will think she's smart and admire her, is a people-pleaser who needs external approval and validation, not a perfectionist. A perfectionist is someone who often invests waaaaay more time and energy in a project than is strictly necessary, because they are driven to make sure they have thought of every possible scenario, checked every possible resource, evaluated every possible argument, and made the best possible word choice in every sentence of every paragraph. It's working and reworking and re-reworking something to death because anything less than 110% of perfection means you didn't do your best.

You do not think there is overlap between those two things? For me, both of those things have been true in my life. The bolded section has been true countless times, and I have often have a strong tendency to fixate on some detail that takes a stupid amount of time but contributes little to the overall goal. Like I’m doing preparation in the week before a party and I notice the interior doors are scuffed and now I’m painting all the doors. Or I start washing my car and realize the headlights are oxidized and now I’m looking up YouTube hacks involving sandpaper and toothpaste because, now I noticed the headlights look crappy, it’s going to bug me until I fix them. 

Thought of every possible scenario: yes. I love to have the contingency figured out and then the contingency for the contingency. I loathe it when I am insufficiently prepared for something and I can’t remedy it. This shows up the most often in punctuality; I would rather get somewhere forty minutes early and read in the car or whatever than risk getting there late because unforseen things interferred. I will say, though, modern tech has mitigated this paranoia quite nicely because I can find out traffic or weather incidents and plan an alternate route. In the worst case scenario, I at least can call or text people who are depending on me to tell them of the holdup. 

But a person can be this way and be craving approval, right? Why would those ideas be mutually exclusive? 

[SamanthaCarter]

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

But a person can be this way and be craving approval, right? Why would those ideas be mutually exclusive? 

One can be either of these, or both, or neither. Because people are multifaceted, right? 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

One can be either of these, or both, or neither. Because people are multifaceted, right? 

Yes! Which was what bugged me in the book. It was too simplistic, making this distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” 

[wintermom]

There is an interesting article in the American Psychological Association journal called, "The many Faces of Perfectionism" (2003).https://www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/manyfaces.aspx  According to a variety of research in this area, there are a whole range of personality traits as well as different slants on this issue, from being driven to perfectionism in one's self to demanding perfection in others.

The article ended with an interesting quote:

"As a practicing psychologist who frequently treats perfectionists, Hewitt avoids focusing on high personal standards. Patients have likely been told hundreds of times to lower their standards, and the therapist who repeats that risks being ignored, he says.

"I work more on the precursors of perfection--the need to be accepted, to be cared for," says Hewitt, "Those interpersonal needs are what drive the perfectionistic behavior."

[Corraleno]

12 hours ago, Quill said:

But a person can be this way and be craving approval, right? Why would those ideas be mutually exclusive? 

They're not mutually exclusive at all — I just think they're two different things. Someone can be a perfectionist and also crave approval and validation, but you can also be a perfectionist and not care two whits what anyone else thinks. Just like someone can be desperate for approval and outside validation without being the least bit perfectionist. I think the drive for perfectionism comes from within — it's a personal need to do something perfectly and correctly and not "settle" for less. And people with this trait will often pursue perfection even when the result is the opposite of social approval and validation. We obsess about perfection because we know that anything less will just bug the crap out of us nonstop until we fix it, so might as well do it perfectly the first time (or not do it at all). 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

There is an interesting article in the American Psychological Association journal called, "The many Faces of Perfectionism" (2003).https://www.apa.org/monitor/nov03/manyfaces.aspx  According to a variety of research in this area, there are a whole range of personality traits as well as different slants on this issue, from being driven to perfectionism in one's self to demanding perfection in others.

The article ended with an interesting quote:

"As a practicing psychologist who frequently treats perfectionists, Hewitt avoids focusing on high personal standards. Patients have likely been told hundreds of times to lower their standards, and the therapist who repeats that risks being ignored, he says.

"I work more on the precursors of perfection--the need to be accepted, to be cared for," says Hewitt, "Those interpersonal needs are what drive the perfectionistic behavior."

Interesting article. Hewitt seems to distinguish between two types of perfectionism: "socially prescribed" (needing to look perfect to others) and "self-oriented" (internally driven to achieve perfection). And he says that other researchers tend to label the second type as "adaptive" and not pathological:

"Since the early 1990s, Hewitt and Flett, a professor of psychology at York University in Toronto have championed the idea that perfectionism comes in different flavors, each associated with different kinds of problems. Some of those problems may be less severe than others, they argue, but no form of perfectionism is completely problem-free.

Other researchers, however, have suggested that some forms of perfectionism--particularly those that involve high personal standards--can be adaptive. World-class athletes, they argue, have extraordinarily high standards; they shouldn't be labeled pathological just because they aim high.

That's an oversimplification, says Hewitt, one that conflates two very different things: the desire to excel and the desire to be perfect."

So he is basically excluding from his definition of "perfectionism" any internally-driven perfectionism that works to the individual's advantage (as in an athlete), and simply labelling that as "desire to excel," while retaining socially-oriented perfectionism and maladaptive internally-driven perfectionism within his definition of perfectionism.

That just seems to me to be a way to make his thesis work (that all perfectionism is damaging) by excluding any forms that aren't damaging. I wonder how he would categorize someone whose drive for perfection was both adaptive (athlete achieved goal of making the Olympics) and maladaptive (same athlete has trouble in other areas of life). I also wonder how he would deal with a patient who has maladaptive self-oriented perfectionism, because his approach of focusing on the need to be accepted and cared for by others is not going to be effective for them.

Really interesting discussion!

 

ETA: I'm wondering if the reason Hewitt basically excludes "adaptive" perfectionism from his definition is because those people generally aren't going to therapists for help, because they don't really want to become less perfectionist.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Corraleno

[Pen]

Perfectionism means feeling a need to be perfect, that anything less than perfect isn’t good enough.  

What is “perfect”?

How does one reach that?

I think the ideas in Mindset, where emphasis is on effort made, rather than on outcome is helpful. And that it can help lead to excellence IME more readily than “perfectionism” which IME tends to lead to stuckness, fear of trying, and lack of joy.  

[maize]

In general, I think a drive to excel can be a positive thing. A fear of failure or inability to accept not-perfect from self or others is more likely to be negative.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

What happens when you aren't perfect, or the person you want to be perfect isn't perfect, is probably the distinction between healthy and not. 

Like, what does it MEAN when someone says something along the lines of "I don't accept anything less than perfect outcomes." What do they do? Do they start ruminating on suicide? Do they get irrationally angry? Do they feel bummed, tell a friend about it, and move on? Do they start pulling out a strand of hair for every mistake they think they've made? Do they just go clean the bathroom because they really like it to be exactly the way they want it and it's something within their control? Do they practice for an extra fifteen minutes a day?

I'd assume that one person's healthy response is inevitably going to be someone else's unhealthy response because that's just the way it goes. 

Right. I think your last line is why I start getting confused when someone talks about weight and body image on here. One person will say, “weighing oneself every day is just heading to crazy-town,” while another person thinks, “well, I weigh daily and I don’t feel crazy...” (I weigh daily, BTW, so I wonder about this whenever it comes up here.) 

The social approval thing is obviously a big deal to me. I make a mental collection when I notice that someone got “caught” in a criticism for something they failed to notice or plan for. And then, those thoughts enter my mind when I am preparing for something similar because I don’t want the same fault to be perceived for my thing.

One time, I was at a Christmas party at a friend’s magnificent, beautiful, immaculate house. We were sitting at the gorgeous built-in bar and another guest near me noticed there was a spider web on the top of the light fixture. So in my mind, I go, “SEEEEE?! People do notice the one tiny flaw! So everyone who tells me as I obsessively prepare for a party ‘nobody is scrutinizing your light fixtures for cobwebs’ is wrong!” Now, whenever I plan for a party, it enters my thoughts, “Light fixtures above reproach? Check...” 

Sometimes, I can decide I don’t care if someone finds a cobweb, but this is a relatively recent development - within the past 5-8 years, say. In my early twenties, I would actually not have a party because my mental collection of all the things I had to do correctly was too long and I would avoid instead. 

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

Right. I think your last line is why I start getting confused when someone talks about weight and body image on here. One person will say, “weighing oneself every day is just heading to crazy-town,” while another person thinks, “well, I weigh daily and I don’t feel crazy...” (I weigh daily, BTW, so I wonder about this whenever it comes up here.) 

The social approval thing is obviously a big deal to me. I make a mental collection when I notice that someone got “caught” in a criticism for something they failed to notice or plan for. And then, those thoughts enter my mind when I am preparing for something similar because I don’t want the same fault to be perceived for my thing.

One time, I was at a Christmas party at a friend’s magnificent, beautiful, immaculate house. We were sitting at the gorgeous built-in bar and another guest near me noticed there was a spider web on the top of the light fixture. So in my mind, I go, “SEEEEE?! People do notice the one tiny flaw! So everyone who tells me as I obsessively prepare for a party ‘nobody is scrutinizing your light fixtures for cobwebs’ is wrong!” Now, whenever I plan for a party, it enters my thoughts, “Light fixtures above reproach? Check...” 

Sometimes, I can decide I don’t care if someone finds a cobweb, but this is a relatively recent development - within the past 5-8 years, say. In my early twenties, I would actually not have a party because my mental collection of all the things I had to do correctly was too long and I would avoid instead. 

 

When I visit less than immaculate or even fairly messy (though not unsanitary) homes I feel tremendous deep gratitude to not have yet another Jones I can’t keep up with and another reason to berate myself for imperfection. I would probably notice a cobweb or spiderweb and I would probably be feeling grateful for a spiderweb ... or several cobwebs.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

When I visit less than immaculate or even fairly messy (though not unsanitary) homes I feel tremendous deep gratitude to not have yet another Jones I can’t keep up with and another reason to berate myself for imperfection. I would probably notice a cobweb or spiderweb and I would probably be feeling grateful for a spiderweb ... or several cobwebs.  

I know this is true for many, but it also easily becomes marching orders in my head. If I knew this about you, and you were coming to my house, I would leave some ordinary messes so you would feel more comfortable. But if I’m hosting lots of people, I do feel I must bring my high-A game to that task, because of that spider-web spotter or some other person in my mental collection. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Sometimes, I can decide I don’t care if someone finds a cobweb, but this is a relatively recent development - within the past 5-8 years, say. In my early twenties, I would actually not have a party because my mental collection of all the things I had to do correctly was too long and I would avoid instead. 

 

My MIL would notice and help the host clean because she is from a patriarchal family where wives are supposed to keep a showroom worthy house. Knowing that emotional baggage, I am not affected by any comments about mess in my home.

My mom was an NICU nurse for decades. She would notice but she would just pretend not to see. It’s just an occupational hazard for her to notice specks of dust and everything else.

My husband was a people pleaser but not a perfectionist. When he realized that people just makes use of him being a people pleaser for their own gains, he learn to start putting his foot down. His first work place also has people taking advantage of perfectionist to do all the work and then take all the credit. He wise up.

Where I am on the perfectionism spectrum depends on what “activity” it is. There are things that I can totally slack and there are things I am extreme about but can put up a casual veneer/facade to it.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

A few disjointed thoughts:

This is interesting.  It sounds like the author has set up a false dichotomy here- there are many things between "Oh well I tried" and "I'm going to jump from the bell tower because my tarts turned out ugly".  

In my mind, perfectionism has a little hint of OCD in it.  

I saw the movie The Last Samurai (Tom Cruise) in the theater when I was in college.  After leaving, I was discussing it with the person I'd been to see it with.  I said something to the effect that I wished I lived in a time and a place like the Japanese village, where every undertaking is done with an attempt at beauty and perfection.  And he said, rather bluntly, "There's nothing stopping you from doing that here, and now."  At the time, I felt that was very profound, and it has stayed with me all this time.  

When I do something, I do it *darned well*- and because I happen to be a pretty competent person, it tends to work out great.  But I have served many an ugly dessert (still tastes good!) with absolutely no embarrassment because I don't mind appearing imperfect (because I am!).  

I can't say I've mastered the Japanese village thing.  I wash dishes and floors with the absolute minimum amount of brain power.  But the things I care about, I do to the maximum of my ability- which is not perfection.  All I strive for is my personal best, and that seems healthy enough.  The hardest task is just getting it into the "I care about this" task list.  Once it's there, it's all good.  

 

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

If they are me, when I am not perfect, I have tended to quit.

Like, I failed my first driving test 27 years ago, and I was so mortified by failure that I never took another driving lesson, let alone test, again.

A healthy response would be a day's disappointment, rebooking a couple of lessons, rebooking the test, and trying again.

Ironically, of course, when you quit everything in fear of failure, you really do fail.

 

 

My son is doing this now.  Just with the written exam to get a permit to take lessons.  

Any suggestions?

 

[Katy]

I think she's not talking about perfectionism per se as much as a certain kind of abusive self-talk that comes when there is a lack of perspective.

One example: we have a new baby, and as always we're going through the new baby adjustment period (especially during food season) DH is doing many of the tasks I normally do - like running my errands on the way home from work.  When he forgets something or doesn't do something to his typical standard he makes abusive self-talk out loud. It doesn't motivate him, it makes him shut down. He would NEVER speak to me or the kids the way he speaks to himself if we were the ones to forget something or overlook it - whether due to sleep deprivation or simple mistake. Now if calling himself fat helped him make more responsible food choices I might not ask him to NOT speak to himself that way.  But it's not motivating.  If anything it makes him want to go spend $15 on junk at Taco Bell.