Musing about Perfectionism vs. Excellence

[Ginevra]

I’m thinking out loud here and I want to discuss this with smart, thoughtful people so here goes: 

I was listening on audiobook over the past few days The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown. I actually bought this a couple of years ago when I had several credits on Audible and I hastily picked a couple books and this came up as a recommended for me. 

I do not love this book at all, though, to be fair, I don’t think this is one of the better books for listening over reading text. Certain words quickly become very annoying as I hear them repeatedly: shame, authenticity, whole-hearted living, connection...and perfectionism. 

In the book, the author attempts to make a distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” She gives an example of needing to lose ten pounds. The perfectionistic self-talk is, “ugh! I’m fat. Nothing fits. Why did I make such a pig of myself?” While the “healthy striving” self-talk is something like, “I want this for myself. The number on the scale doesn’t dictate what I do.” (In her example, she still intends to lose the ten pounds, though.) 

I find this supposed distinction quite nebulous, in part because it is easy enough to rearrange words, but that does not mean it is distinct behavior. As I thought about this, I note that we humans rarely do anything with one pure motive or 100% altruistic concepts. I think, actually, the large majority of decisions we make and behaviors we choose are primarily done for social acceptance, accolades, admiration, kudos, rewards, etc. We may also choose a behavior out of pure motives, but if those social benefits arise from the behavior, it also reinforces it, making it only more likely we will repeat the desired “good” behavior. This is especially true as a child is growing up, because if they choose a “good” behavior for pure motives, they will nevertheless get a lot of social benefits, making it more likely that they will shape their own identity thusly: “I am a good person, so I choose pro-social behaviors.” 

Being an adult with high standards is very socially rewarding. Everyone loves the lady who can be counted on to do an outstanding job. Heck, if I go to a surgeon or a dentist, or even a hair dresser, I want a person with very high standards! And if they do have very high standards, they will enjoy many rewards. They will have more business, they will win awards and be well-paid. They will enjoy a good reputation. So even if, say, at age 18, a surgeon had a pure motive of wanting to become a surgeon because he or she wanted to snatch people from the clutches of death, improve their quality of life, use their expertise for difficult cases or indigent people, it is still true the excellent surgeon is going to garner tons of social perks that make it no longer the only reason to be a surgeon, if it ever was. 

Therefore, I am beginning to think “perfectionism” is largely a fictitious problem. What people call perfectionism is really just other misnamed vices, like pride or vanity. All the self-help-y books and materials warn against perfectionism - defining it as primarily driven by how people will perceive you - but the large majority of choices people make are driven by caring how others perceive you. Couching it as “healthy striving” simply by arranging some words to make it sound like it is “authentic” to you sounds like semantic clean-up to me. 

Hive opinions? 

[regentrude]

38 minutes ago, Quill said:

In the book, the author attempts to make a distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” She gives an example of needing to lose ten pounds. The perfectionistic self-talk is, “ugh! I’m fat. Nothing fits. Why did I make such a pig of myself?” While the “healthy striving” self-talk is something like, “I want this for myself. The number on the scale doesn’t dictate what I do.” (In her example, she still intends to lose the ten pounds, though.) 

I think that is not a good representation of what perfectionism is. Your example is just negative self-talk which has absolutely nothing to do with perfectionism. 

I also don't think that motivation as anything to do with perfectionism or "healthy striving". Perfectionism is much more of a character trait than something one can choose to have or not, depending on motivation. I am quite a perfectionist at work, not for social recognition, but because doing a sloppy job or seeing other people do sloppy work makes me angry and unhappy, and because I cannot comprehend how people can be content doing a half-assed job. I care about the outcome, whether somebody sees me doing it or not, and I have high standards for my work. The same is true for the other perfectionists in my life. 

Quote

Therefore, I am beginning to think “perfectionism” is largely a fictitious problem. What people call perfectionism is really just other misnamed vices, like pride or vanity.

No. perfectionism has nothing to do with pride or vanity. And perfectionism can absolutely be a problem when it paralyzes the person, and when not measuring up to impossibly high standards causes the person to have a negative self image. Perfectionism can be a problem when working in a team, because inevitably most team members' contributions will fall short of perfect , and the perfectionist has to either learn to accept substandard work, or will run herself ragged fixing everybody's parts (ask me how I know).

Striving for excellence is different from perfectionism, because the person striving for excellence realizes that perfect may be unattainable and settles for excellent. This means the inevitable small mistakes don't cause crisis and despair. Striving for excellence simply means doing the best job the person possibly can. In a sense, the measuring stick is the process, not the result. A perfectionist can learn to temper her perfectionism and attain healthy striving (ask me how I know that, too).

ETA: To give  a simple example for the difference: if a perfectionist find an inconsequential mistake in a printed exam, she will feel compelled to reprint all the copies and beat herself up over not having found the mistake despite careful proof reading or berate her team members for not catching the mistake. (Or make the secretary unstaple 400 exams, take out a page, insert a new one, and restaple everything.)

The striving-for-excellence person who managed to conquer her perfectionism will shrug, recognize that the mistake is inconsequential, be content making a verbal announcement in case a student brings it up, and only resort to redoing the exam if the mistake is changing the meaning of the problem.

Edited December 15, 2018 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

29 minutes ago, Quill said:

Therefore, I am beginning to think “perfectionism” is largely a fictitious problem. What people call perfectionism is really just other misnamed vices, like pride or vanity.

 

I would describe perfectionism as an OCD version of striving for excellence among myself and relatives. Where for example getting an Olympic gold medal for swimming/running is still not good enough because he/she didn’t improve on his/her personal best time. It can be very demoralizing to never live up to your (general) own perfectionist standards because those standards are par excellence/extreme.

[Pawz4me]

38 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

Therefore, I am beginning to think “perfectionism” is largely a fictitious problem. What people call perfectionism is really just other misnamed vices, like pride or vanity. All the self-help-y books and materials warn against perfectionism - defining it as primarily driven by how people will perceive you - but the large majority of choices people make are driven by caring how others perceive you. Couching it as “healthy striving” simply by arranging some words to make it sound like it is “authentic” to you sounds like semantic clean-up to me. 

I can't buy into that theory at all.

Personal example--I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to keeping the house clean and tidy. It has nothing to do with pride or vanity. We're introverts and very, very rarely have company except for close family and old friends--all people I've known for at least thirty years, and certainly don't feel any need whatsoever to impress. So no, there's no caring about how others perceive me or my housekeeping habits. It's really very simple--I like the house to be neat and tidy because it makes me feel cozy and calm and enhances my ability to rest and relax. It really is that simple, and I suspect other areas of/types of perfectionism can be explained similarly.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Pawz4me

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I think that is not a good representation of what perfectionism is. Your example is just negative self-talk which has absolutely nothing to do with perfectionism. 

I also don't think that motivation as anything to do with perfectionism or "healthy striving". Perfectionism is much more of a character trait than something one can choose to have or not, depending on motivation. I am quite a perfectionist at work, not for social recognition, but because doing a sloppy job or seeing other people do sloppy work makes me angry and unhappy, and because I cannot comprehend how people can be content doing a half-assed job. I care about the outcome, whether somebody sees me doing it or not, and I have high standards for my work. The same is true for the other perfectionists in my life. 

 

 

No. perfectionism has nothing to do with pride or vanity. And perfectionism can absolutely be a problem when it paralyzes the person, and when not measuring up to impossibly high standards causes the person to have a negative self image. Perfectionism can be a problem when working in a team, because inevitably most team members' contributions will fall short of perfect , and the perfectionist has to either learn to accept substandard work, or will run herself ragged fixing everybody's parts (ask me how I know).

Striving for excellence is different form perfectionism, because the person striving for excellence realizes that perfect may be unattainable and settles for excellent. This means the inevitable small mistakes don't cause crisis and despair. A perfectionist can learn to temper her perfectionism and attain healthy striving (ask me how I know that, too).

Right, but by doing excellent work, you do get social recognition, even if it’s just the general good reputation of people saying, “Oh, if regentrude does that job, it will be top-notch!” 

I also don’t understand how people can do a half-assed job, but do you not think there is a pride and judgement aspect to that? Are you not feeling some level of, “Bob is not producing as well as he could. He is lazy/clueless/a slob/negative thing.”

I also care about the outcome, whether it is witnessed or not, but I still benefit from doing a great job. Caring about the outcome garners praise and other social benefits because everyone in a community of people is happy about a good outcome. 

I don’t know that “perfectionism” means the person actually expects flawlessness of themselves. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I can't buy into that theory at all.

Personal example--I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to keeping the house clean and tidy. It has nothing to do with pride or vanity. We're introverts and very, very rarely have company except for close family and old friends--all people I've known for at least thirty years, and certainly don't feel any need whatsoever to impress. So no, there's no caring about how others perceive me or my housekeeping habits. It's really very simple--I like the house to be neat and tidy because it makes me feel cozy and calm and enhances my ability to rest and relax. It really is that simple, and I suspect other areas of/types of perfectionism can be explained similarly.

Then that would be “striving for excellence,” not perfectionism. I am speaking about perfectionism as a negative. 

I like a neat house, too. I don’t think that is negative. 

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

Right, but by doing excellent work, you do get social recognition, even if it’s just the general good reputation of people saying, “Oh, if regentrude does that job, it will be top-notch!” 

I also don’t understand how people can do a half-assed job, but do you not think there is a pride and judgement aspect to that? Are you not feeling some level of, “Bob is not producing as well as he could. He is lazy/clueless/a slob/negative thing.”

I also care about the outcome, whether it is witnessed or not, but I still benefit from doing a great job. Caring about the outcome garners praise and other social benefits because everyone in a community of people is happy about a good outcome. 

 

But one is not a perfectionist because of the social recognition!  One can be perfectionist about things no other person  ever sees. 

And yes, of course I feel judgmental when somebody does not put in the effort. But I do not choose to be perfectionist just so that I can feel superior.

Quote

I don’t know that “perfectionism” means the person actually expects flawlessness of themselves. 

Then you clearly are not a perfectionist if you do not know the painful feeling of inadequacy if one does not measure up to one's high expectations.

ETA: I am 50 and still remember the one single spelling mistake for which I ever lost one point in school. And how mortified I was when I forgot my art supplies once in 4th grade. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by regentrude

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As the parent of a child who tends towards perfectionism......that' is actually EXACTLY how she feels.  She completely expects herself to be perfect, flawless, never screw up ever.  

This! That's the kid for whom getting an A- will cause tears and self doubt and a major crisis because it is perceived as a failure.

Edited December 15, 2018 by regentrude

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

This is why college was such a learning experience for her, she had to learn that being less than perfect isn't a failure, it's a normal part of life.  It's a VERY hard lesson for a perfectionist to learn.  

Super hard! That's why it is so important they get the gift of a challenge that brings them to the limit so they have to temper their perfectionism.

Edited December 15, 2018 by regentrude

[Storygirl]

I am a perfectionist, and it's an internal drive for me, not a desire to live up to a social standard. I do expect myself to be flawless, and the fact that I never am does make me feel inadequate, and it is paralyzing when I face starting a task.

Desire for excellence .... yes, I have that, too, and it's a good quality. I am glad that I have that drive. But perfectionism stinks, and I hate the affect it has on me.

 

[Terabith]

I am a perfectionist, and it's AWFUL.  It's seriously paralyzing, and when I can't be perfect, I utterly give up.  I am very much all or nothing, and if it can't be perfect, there's no point in bothering at all, which is really problematic with things like housework.  And it absolutely destroys your self image.  I don't think it's at all the same thing as having high standards. 

[Storygirl]

And the flip side of perfectionism, for me, is that when I can't do something well, I give up. Or I don't even try. Or I procrastinate until I create a problem. And I beat myself up the entire time, because I know I am failing. Perfectionism doesn't mean actually keeping things perfect or doing things perfectly. Because there is the feeling of constant failure or the threat of failure, and with that looming, it's hard to accomplish things.

It's an internal thing, not an external thing. If you came into my house, you would not think, "A perfectionist lives here."

[KathyBC]

The difference between perfectionism and striving for excellence may not be the most externally obvious distinction, but the internal difference can be huge.
Assuming all perfectionists achieve excellence would be a mistake. FlyLady addresses this quite well. Perfectionism can lead to procrastination: why tackle a project you know could fail? A far healthier mental attitude is to do the best you can with what you have and do it now, recognizing that even an imperfect result can be an improvement.

[Terabith]

Just now, Storygirl said:

And the flip side of perfectionism, for me, is that when I can't do something well, I give up. Or I don't even try. Or I procrastinate until I create a problem. And I beat myself up the entire time, because I know I am failing. Perfectionism doesn't mean actually keeping things perfect or doing things perfectly. Because there is the feeling of constant failure or the threat of failure, and with that looming, it's hard to accomplish things.

It's an internal thing, not an external thing. If you came into my house, you would not think, "A perfectionist lives here."

SO MUCH THIS!   I am the world's worst housekeeper, but the root is perfectionism, and self hatred is constant.

[Storygirl]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

SO MUCH THIS!   I am the world's worst housekeeper, but the root is perfectionism, and self hatred is constant.

Yup. It's horrible.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, regentrude said:

But one is not a perfectionist because of the social recognition!  One can be perfectionist about things no other person  ever sees. 

And yes, of course I feel judgmental when somebody does not put in the effort. But I do not choose to be perfectionist just so that I can feel superior.

Then you clearly are not a perfectionist if you do not know the painful feeling of inadequacy if one does not measure up to one's high expectations.

ETA: I am 50 and still remember the one single spelling mistake for which I ever lost one point in school. And how mortified I was when I forgot my art supplies once in 4th grade. 

I have a similar memory, about crying my eyes out the first time I did not get a 100% on a test. But it seems to me I did get the idea somewhere that, since I was smart in school and my parents and teachers were very approving at my perfect gold star papers, that this is what I should be able to able produce. So, if a kid tends in the perfectionistic direction, then he or she often has that reinforced. So the reinforcement through praise, rewards, admiration, etc. makes the perfectionistic behavior more likely. 

I’m not saying one chooses to be perfectionistic in order to feel superior. I’m saying its going in the opposite direction: “I’m working hard and producing outstanding results and if Bob over there would just get his head out of his ass and work hard too, then he wouldn’t do such a mediocre job.” 

[Farrar]

I second what everyone is saying here. Perfectionists give up rather than try and not meet their own standards. Or they take forever on things that don't deserve or really require the amount of time they give them and the time causes a huge amount of stress and feelings of inadequacy in and of itself. Perfectionism sucks.

I get really frustrated because I feel like so many people don't really get perfectionism. As the parent of a kid with major perfectionist tendencies, I got really mad last year because a parent of an OCD kid shared this thing from The Mighty, which is a mental illness advocacy page, that basically made out like perfectionism is a positive thing - not like OCD. I was like, geez, yeah, they're different, and OCD is really serious, but perfectionism is not a walk in the park either. Like, it's not enough that the general public thinks perfectionists are perky and awesome or are great workers and that it's a trait to envy, but mental health advocates also have to poop on perfectionism as no biggie either? Ack, so frustrating.

In one of the worst cases of kid perfectionism I've seen, I had a student years ago who stopped working for about four years. She just stopped. She wouldn't do anything. She was smart and really good at talking her way around stuff, but in a year of having her as a student, I think I saw her start maybe a dozen assignments and she never finished one. Not once. She was massively stunted in her skills because she had stopped being willing to try anything because she knew it would never meet her standards. It was so difficult to watch.

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

I have a similar memory, about crying my eyes out the first time I did not get a 100% on a test. But it seems to me I did get the idea somewhere that, since I was smart in school and my parents and teachers were very approving at my perfect gold star papers, that this is what I should be able to able produce. So, if a kid tends in the perfectionistic direction, then he or she often has that reinforced. So the reinforcement through praise, rewards, admiration, etc. makes the perfectionistic behavior more likely. 

I’m not saying one chooses to be perfectionistic in order to feel superior. I’m saying its going in the opposite direction: “I’m working hard and producing outstanding results and if Bob over there would just get his head out of his ass and work hard too, then he wouldn’t do such a mediocre job.” 

This presumes that perfectionists get lots of great work done. That's simply not my experience. My experience is that perfectionists struggle to get anything done at all. And that when they do finish something, yeah, it's often amazing work. But it's one thing... you're not seeing how they don't get anything else done as a result of the time suck that went into the one thing. Or the background of constant struggle.

This also presumes that perfectionists have a sense of others' work as less than theirs. This also isn't my experience. My perfectionist ds can be critical, but he also doesn't think his work is better than others. His ability to see and judge the work of others in relation to his own is really skewed. He often thinks his is worse. Or he sees that others finished something decent quickly and he beats himself up because he doesn't think he can do that or meet his own standards in that time frame.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

The difference between perfectionism and striving for excellence may not be the most externally obvious distinction, but the internal difference can be huge.
Assuming all perfectionists achieve excellence would be a mistake. FlyLady addresses this quite well. Perfectionism can lead to procrastination: why tackle a project you know could fail? A far healthier mental attitude is to do the best you can with what you have and do it now, recognizing that even an imperfect result can be an improvement.

The book, though, was not talking about this. It was making a distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” I’m saying I think that is a false distinction. I don’t think you change it from “bad” perfectionism to “healthy striving” by saying you want the good outcome for “authentic” reasons. 

Thinking one can’t get the house perfectly clean and therefore doesn’t clean anything is inferiority. It’s obvious that it’s not a healthy outlook. 

[Guest]

Quote

get really frustrated because I feel like so many people don't really get perfectionism. As the parent of a kid with major perfectionist tendencies, I got really mad last year because a parent of an OCD kid shared this thing from The Mighty, which is a mental illness advocacy page, that basically made out like perfectionism is a positive thing - not like OCD. I was like, geez, yeah, they're different, and OCD is really serious, but perfectionism is not a walk in the park either. Like, it's not enough that the general public thinks perfectionists are perky and awesome or are great workers and that it's a trait to envy, but mental health advocates also have to poop on perfectionism as no biggie either? Ack, so frustratin

This is coming close to what bothered me in this book. It was making what I view as largely a semantic distinction between what perfectionism and “healthy striving” is. It was not talking about perfectionism as an OCD-related disorder. It was talking about it like thinking you have to do/have/look a certain way for approval and fitting in. 

I’m thinking this term is just problematic. 

See this article: http://thebygracefoundation.com/blog/2017/10/3/the-difference-between-excellence-and-perfection (Try to look beyond the religious aspect if that’s not your thing.) 

[SamanthaCarter]

I haven’t read the replies, but as I understand it, perfectionism is in large part a fear of failure, when failure is defined as not living up to the standard the perfectionist sets for herself. So the options are to not try, because you are afraid you can’t meet the standard, or to push through the anxiety and do the thing. 

The flip side, the healthy outlook, is to approach a task as acquiring a skill. It won’t be perfect the first time, but with practice, one can reach a high level of skill in the thing. So you enter into a task with that mindset. 

Off to read the replies...

Edited December 15, 2018 by SamanthaCarter

[KathyBC]

20 minutes ago, Quill said:

The book, though, was not talking about this. It was making a distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” I’m saying I think that is a false distinction. I don’t think you change it from “bad” perfectionism to “healthy striving” by saying you want the good outcome for “authentic” reasons. 

Thinking one can’t get the house perfectly clean and therefore doesn’t clean anything is inferiority. It’s obvious that it’s not a healthy outlook. 

Healthy striving seems like an accurate term. Even if you're a perfectionist, you still need to clean your house. Or try for good health. There are healthier thinking patterns, so that you can celebrate small achievements rather than be all or nothing. I find inferiority-superiority to be terms that judge, rather than help.

[Arcadia]

18 minutes ago, Quill said:

I have a similar memory, about crying my eyes out the first time I did not get a 100% on a test. But it seems to me I did get the idea somewhere that, since I was smart in school and my parents and teachers were very approving at my perfect gold star papers, that this is what I should be able to able produce. So, if a kid tends in the perfectionistic direction, then he or she often has that reinforced. So the reinforcement through praise, rewards, admiration, etc. makes the perfectionistic behavior more likely. 

 

A real life example. When I was in high school, I was able to get full marks for math exams sometimes. I thought the teacher was just being kind when grading even though looking through the scoring guidelines that were given, I did deserve my 100%.

My DS14 often thinks he doesn’t deserve his A+ and other high scores. He thinks he was lucky or the teacher is too kind. He actually gets embarrassed by attention. He was actually a target of parents’ envy when in public school. 

Being a “gold star” student actually meant being a target in school. Luckily engineering school was much better where being the top student in a subject doesn’t make me an envy target.

[KathyBC]

30 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is coming close to what bothered me in this book. It was making what I view as largely a semantic distinction between what perfectionism and “healthy striving” is. It was not talking about perfectionism as an OCD-related disorder. It was talking about it like thinking you have to do/have/look a certain way for approval and fitting in. 

I’m thinking this term is just problematic. 

See this article: http://thebygracefoundation.com/blog/2017/10/3/the-difference-between-excellence-and-perfection (Try to look beyond the religious aspect if that’s not your thing.) 

So I read your link, and it is making pretty much the same distinction as Brene Brown, from a Christian viewpoint: she posits that pursuing excellence *is* different than perfectionism.
So your quibble would appear to actually be with the semantics between 'healthy striving' and 'pursuing excellence', which kind of seem like the same thing to me.

ETA: I haven't read this Brene Brown title, however, so she may not nail perfectionism as well in it as she does elsewhere. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by KathyBC

[maize]

I've never thought of perfectionism as driven by desire for social recognition, the perfectionism I see around me tends to be more anxiety driven.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I’m not saying one chooses to be perfectionistic in order to feel superior. I’m saying its going in the opposite direction: “I’m working hard and producing outstanding results and if Bob over there would just get his head out of his ass and work hard too, then he wouldn’t do such a mediocre job.” 

A person who is striving for "healthy excellence" would feel the same.

[regentrude]

48 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is coming close to what bothered me in this book. It was making what I view as largely a semantic distinction between what perfectionism and “healthy striving” is. It was not talking about perfectionism as an OCD-related disorder. It was talking about it like thinking you have to do/have/look a certain way for approval and fitting in. 

In no connotation I have ever seen does the bolded meet the definition for perfectionism

[SereneHome]

I consider myself a very lazy perfectionist.  I know how I want things done, I am just too lazy to do it.  But at the same time, I know that for the most part others won't do it to my standards.  So, a lot of times, I just don't do it at all.  Bc if it can't be done 100%, then why bother at all?

My husband is also perfectionist and he actually does it the way it should be done.  But it takes him foooooreeeveeer to complete a project.

Neither of us think about pride or social acceptance.  We just know what we want.  Sometimes we achieve it, sometimes we don't.  As a matter of fact, I have no external currency, which makes it really hard sometimes to achieve a goal.  Like I need to loose 40 lbs and I've been "trying" for at least 6 yrs.  I've lost zero.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

So I read your link, and it is making pretty much the same distinction as Brene Brown, from a Christian viewpoint: she posits that pursuing excellence *is* different than perfectionism.
So your quibble would appear to actually be with the semantics between 'healthy striving' and 'pursuing excellence', which kind of seem like the same thing to me.

ETA: I haven't read this Brene Brown title, however, so she may not nail perfectionism as well in it as she does elsewhere. 

I don’t think I understand what you mean by the bolded. I think “healthy striving” and “pursuing excellence” are the same thing and they are both positive. But I don’t think people choose actions based distinctly on a positive “healthy striving” or a negative “perfectionism.” I don’t think people do things with such simplistic, one-sided motives. 

For example, suppose my friends were coming over and I made an individual cherry tart for each guest. I want them to be happy and have something that tastes wonderful and they go home feeling happy and satisifed. BUT! If it is successful, I am also going to have the social benefit that people will say, “she made these tarts and they were soooooo delicious!” Or, “count yourself lucky if Quill makes those cherry tarts!” If I make the tarts again in the future, I will still want the friends to be happy and eat something yummy, etc., but I also do it because the social benefits are pleasant and I want more of them/want them to continue. See? 

[Donna]

As a perfectionist and the mother of a child who tends toward perfectionism (it took a lot of work over many years to temper this in her though it still sometimes rears its ugly head), I don't see it as driven by a desire for social recognition but as an internal drive. I am very hard on myself. I remember every "mistake" and beat myself up over them way longer than other people remember them...actually other people probably don't even notice many of the things I beat myself up over. Perfectionism sometimes keeps me from trying things I might enjoy or enjoying things I try. 

Like someone else mentioned, I only feel like I can relax if my house is perfectly clean. We rarely have visitors so it has nothing to do with social recognition.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Donna

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, maize said:

I've never thought of perfectionism as driven by desire for social recognition, the perfectionism I see around me tends to be more anxiety driven.

I agree that it is anxiety driven. But there is an origination of that anxiety in being right, being the best, being above reproach. So there is this anxiety that if one is not good/excellent/perfect, then love and acceptance will be withdrawn. 

[SamanthaCarter]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

For example, suppose my friends were coming over and I made an individual cherry tart for each guest. I want them to be happy and have something that tastes wonderful and they go home feeling happy and satisifed. BUT! If it is successful, I am also going to have the social benefit that people will say, “she made these tarts and they were soooooo delicious!” Or, “count yourself lucky if Quill makes those cherry tarts!” If I make the tarts again in the future, I will still want the friends to be happy and eat something yummy, etc., but I also do it because the social benefits are pleasant and I want more of them/want them to continue. See? 

I don’t see how this is unhealthy. People enjoy accolades, and that’s perfectly fine. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Donna said:

As a perfectionist and the mother of a child who tends toward perfectionism (it's took a lot of work over many years to temper this in her though it still sometimes rears its ugly head), I don't see it as driven by a desire for social recognition but as an internal drive. I am very hard on myself. I remember every "mistake" and beat myself up over them way longer than other people remember them...actually other people probably don't even notice many of the things I beat myself up over. Perfectionism sometimes keeps me from trying things I might enjoy or enjoying things I try. 

Like someone else mentioned, I only feel like I can relax if my house is perfectly clean. We rarely have visitors so it has nothing to do with social recognition.

But what is the impetus for the intenal drive? For me, it was/has been approval and feeling worthy or care. “If I am not good/excellent/beneficial, I will be rejected. Therefore, I must be as good/excellent/beneficial as I can be so I will be cared for.”

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

I don’t see how this is unhealthy. People enjoy accolades, and that’s perfectly fine. 

That’s exactly my point. That is exactly what I didn’t agree with in the book. 

[SamanthaCarter]

2 minutes ago, Donna said:

As a perfectionist and the mother of a child who tends toward perfectionism (it took a lot of work over many years to temper this in her though it still sometimes rears its ugly head), I don't see it as driven by a desire for social recognition but as an internal drive. I am very hard on myself. I remember every "mistake" and beat myself up over them way longer than other people remember them...actually other people probably don't even notice many of the things I beat myself up over. Perfectionism sometimes keeps me from trying things I might enjoy or enjoying things I try. 

Like someone else mentioned, I only feel like I can relax if my house is perfectly clean. We rarely have visitors so it has nothing to do with social recognition.

Perfectionism does have some element of social acceptance to it. A perfectionist thinks people can see the same failures she sees in herself, or if they don’t, they would reject her if they knew. So it does have social implications in that it can feed into an inferiority complex. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

For my kid, it's not about love and acceptance being given or withdrawn.  

 

It's about being RIGHT.  The clearness of North, South, East, and West.  Following the directions exactly as listed step by step with no deviation and anything that inhibits that step by step process indicates utter failure and the entire project is completely doomed.

 

It's either perfect........or it's wrong.

Do, or do not, there is no try.

Heh. I love that quote. It’s on my fridge. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Quill

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

For example, suppose my friends were coming over and I made an individual cherry tart for each guest. I want them to be happy and have something that tastes wonderful and they go home feeling happy and satisifed. BUT! If it is successful, I am also going to have the social benefit that people will say, “she made these tarts and they were soooooo delicious!” Or, “count yourself lucky if Quill makes those cherry tarts!” If I make the tarts again in the future, I will still want the friends to be happy and eat something yummy, etc., but I also do it because the social benefits are pleasant and I want more of them/want them to continue. See? 

 

After I make the first batch of cherry tarts, I would be thinking that I should have used better tasting cherries and feed my first batch to my husband while making a second better batch for my guests. Before my guests arrived, I would be fretting that I should have done a better cherry tart even though I used better ingredients on the second batch.  That’s provided I didn’t hunt the Internet and asked the hive if my cherry tart recipe was good enough and is there a better recipe before and after making my first and second batch.

If my guests praised my cherry tart, it would probably send me into an internal panic that I have to make a better cherry tart (or any other tart) next time I have guests.

It is not approval from others that perfectionist crave in general. It’s approval from himself/herself (internal). People can praise the perfectionist sky high and the perfectionist would still have feelings of imperfection.

[MrsRobinson]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

OMG, I WISH I knew.  She's 23, I still can't figure it out.  

 

I *think* its some internal black and white....what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong and grey doesn't exist.  

Ok, your posts are scaring me! My dd is 10 but everything you've said about your dd sounds just like mine! I feel like I'm peering into the future here! 😱

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

After I make the first batch of cherry tarts, I would be thinking that I should have used better tasting cherries and feed my first batch to my husband while making a second better batch for my guests. Before my guests arrived, I would be fretting that I should have done a better cherry tart even though I used better ingredients on the second batch.  That’s provided I didn’t hunt the Internet and asked the hive if my cherry tart recipe was good enough and is there a better recipe before and after making my first and second batch.

If my guests praised my cherry tart, it would probably send me into an internal panic that I have to make a better cherry tart (or any other tart) next time I have guests.

It is not approval from others that perfectionist crave in general. It’s approval from himself/herself (internal). People can praise the perfectionist sky high and the perfectionist would still have feelings of imperfection.

That’s sad.

It seems to me, though, that an issue this deep-seated is not even in the realm of books like in the OP. 

[MrsRobinson]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I won't lie.  Her teen years were ROUGH.  Although I suspect that my having babies through those years didn't help (hormonal teen and pregnant mom with a 1yr old in the house=recipe for an explosion)   

(Mental note to self 👉 Don't get knocked up again.) 😂

I guess at some point, the mom's job is to listen and support while they work through those experiences. It sounds like you've been a great supporter to your dd. I bet you were over the moon proud when she graduated college!

[SamanthaCarter]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

That’s sad.

It seems to me, though, that an issue this deep-seated is not even in the realm of books like in the OP. 

It is sad, but it’s an accurate description. If this is not how the book led you to understand it, you are right, the definition of perfectionism in the book was not accurate. 

[Farrar]

So, the link that Quill put up earlier about the differences in aiming for perfection vs. aiming for excellence felt really dead on to me... for people who are just run of the mill people. Like, we all struggle with wanting something to be just right or listening to voices tell us that it needs to be a certain way or else and with taking critiques and understanding that it's not personal because we're all in the process of improving all the time... Like, that's great advice for people who are mostly normal with mostly normal anxiety about perfection. It felt to me like that site was helping encourage a growth mindset.

I think for perfectionists... it's not like that at all. Perfectionists are often not working toward perfection at all. They're taunted by it. Or frozen by it. It's not about what others say to them or comparing themselves - they feel this way no matter what happens, even if they get perfect marks or promotions. It's just different.

[J-rap]

As a parent of children who are perfectionists, it is truly a brain thing that they can't help.  It's not at all about pleasing others.  It all comes from inside.  Maybe gaining attention from others is a nice reward, but it's not what drives it, at all.   Maybe someday, we'll discover it's all really a mix of sensitivity, mild OCD, binary thinking, and high intelligence, I don't know.  I think it's generally hereditary.  My dh's family has those tendencies, from generation to generation.  

Mine doesn't.  My father (91 years old now!) is my children's hero.  He is smart, but simple, happy, careless... not at all a perfectionist.  My ds says if he could trade places with anyone, it would be him.  He would love to be that way, but his brain prevents him from doing so.

 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

😁

 

I figured that would catch some folks. 

 

That's exactly how she actually thinks.  Don't just TRY to do it, do it exactly as I say....or do not.  

 

If you really understand all the nuances of that quote.....that's perfectionism.  

Interesting. That quote to me means: Try is the lazy way of not putting in your best. “I’ll try to make it to the 8:00am meeting, but...you know...that IS pretty early and I have a 40-minute drive. Plus traffic.” So, to me, commit to the 8:00am meeting, set your alarm, leave with a time cushion and get there by 8. Or 7.55. DO. Or else, rearrange, say it is actually impossible for you to get there at 8am, so let’s reschedule for 10am. DO NOT. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

For my Dd, it means "I will leave at 7:30 to be there by 7:45, and if traffic is bad I can be there by 8.

 

BUT, holy crap, there's a giant accident on 465, I am stuck in place for 30 minutes I am NOT getting to work by 8am, probably not even 8:30, this is my fault I should have left at 7, I should have planned better, just cancel the entire meeting because I screwed up

Well, yeah...I did do that a lot when I was young. Now, I usually don’t; now, I am much more likely to be extremely anxious for about ten minutes and then go, “You know what? Oh well. I didn’t know this was going to happen and, even with my usual time cushion, there’s still no making this tractor trailer budge so no point gritting my teeth over this for the next hour. Let’s just be thankful for cell phones because I can call right now...” 

[moonflower]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

This! That's the kid for whom getting an A- will cause tears and self doubt and a major crisis because it is perceived as a failure.

 Yep, DD is like this.

I had very good grades in school; I was grades-motivated and school was easy (even a very difficult program).  I was upset on the occasion that I got a bad grade on a test, and I was very upset one semester when I forgot to turn in the community service hours that were required for advanced classes to be weighted in the GPA  - meaning instead of all As that semseter, I was credited with all Bs.  (though the admin did end up fixing it for me).  But only on that occasion was I that upset.  I could weather the occasional A- without meltdown and self-recrimination.

DD is different.  She got a 95 on Lukeion's Latin 2 final this semester.  She has entered middle school and so cannot attend the live classes; she watches the recordings and studies on her own.  This is also the busy season for our business so she has very very little free time right now, and what she does have goes to homework for school as she is getting caught up from missing the first month.  She is the oldest of 7 and just doesn't have a ton of time.

So I thought a 95, given all of that, was pretty danged good.  She was tearful.  She wanted perfect.  Maybe she would have been content with 97.  95 meant tears.

She is 13, and it is 75% better now than it was when she was little.  I put her in swimming, something she's not great at, from ages 8-10, and that helped a ton.

I think one of the curses of being very organized, very driven, and very bright is that perfection does seem attainable.  For most people, academic perfection isn't attainable.  For DD, swimming perfection wasn't attainable, and it allowed her to slow down and enjoy the other aspects of the experience a bit.  But she is still academically driven (and is the same for anything else she thinks she could do perfectly if only - baking, sewing, knitting, etc.)

Any advice about helping her deal with this would be very welcome.

[moonflower]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

The book, though, was not talking about this. It was making a distinction between perfectionism and “healthy striving.” I’m saying I think that is a false distinction. I don’t think you change it from “bad” perfectionism to “healthy striving” by saying you want the good outcome for “authentic” reasons. 

Thinking one can’t get the house perfectly clean and therefore doesn’t clean anything is inferiority. It’s obvious that it’s not a healthy outlook. 

 

I do agree that the authentic reasons thing is partially BS.  Of course we are socially driven to perform well; we're social creatures and many social expectations exist in order to regulate behavior in an optimal way. Obviously not all of them.

[Peaceseeker]

We have a good bit of perfectionism that seems to run in my family.  I do think there is a genetic component.  I have raised my kids to view it as a disease and not as a good thing.   Every time the tears and drama start I remind the one that perfectionism is a disease.  It tries to steal your joy. It won't let you be happy with progress or growth or even excellence.  I often used to tell my perfectionist before taking a test, etc... that I expected to see at least one error because they really needed to practice making mistakes.

  Most perfectionists I know would completely discount any praise or accolades.  If they get a hundred on a test, well that is just the bare minimum of being acceptable.  They completely discount how great that is and barely acknowledge it.  They will find another little flaw somewhere to focus on instead.  And heaven forbid it was like a 97.  Then all they can focus on is what they did wrong. It is a very difficult way to live.  

In your example with the cherry tarts- if the tarts were perfect and could not be improved upon and the perfectionist was praised excessively for them they would probably just move on to something else to fixate on "well I served a perfect tart but I didn't get to mop the floors before they came over, etc., etc.."  The tarts are already discounted.  There is always something that is NOT perfect to focus on instead of what you may have done perfectly.  You can never beat it.  It taunts you.  In my family, it is clearly co-morbid with a lot of anxiety and we talk about both traits and acknowledge the mental health component.

[Peaceseeker]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

 Yep, DD is like this.

I had very good grades in school; I was grades-motivated and school was easy (even a very difficult program).  I was upset on the occasion that I got a bad grade on a test, and I was very upset one semester when I forgot to turn in the community service hours that were required for advanced classes to be weighted in the GPA  - meaning instead of all As that semseter, I was credited with all Bs.  (though the admin did end up fixing it for me).  But only on that occasion was I that upset.  I could weather the occasional A- without meltdown and self-recrimination.

DD is different.  She got a 95 on Lukeion's Latin 2 final this semester.  She has entered middle school and so cannot attend the live classes; she watches the recordings and studies on her own.  This is also the busy season for our business so she has very very little free time right now, and what she does have goes to homework for school as she is getting caught up from missing the first month.  She is the oldest of 7 and just doesn't have a ton of time.

So I thought a 95, given all of that, was pretty danged good.  She was tearful.  She wanted perfect.  Maybe she would have been content with 97.  95 meant tears.

She is 13, and it is 75% better now than it was when she was little.  I put her in swimming, something she's not great at, from ages 8-10, and that helped a ton.

I think one of the curses of being very organized, very driven, and very bright is that perfection does seem attainable.  For most people, academic perfection isn't attainable.  For DD, swimming perfection wasn't attainable, and it allowed her to slow down and enjoy the other aspects of the experience a bit.  But she is still academically driven (and is the same for anything else she thinks she could do perfectly if only - baking, sewing, knitting, etc.)

Any advice about helping her deal with this would be very welcome.

I have to help my perfectionist reframe expectations since obviously they do not have a good sense of what appropriate expectations are.  Sometimes I use a scenario of "what would you say to (insert best friends name) if they got a 95 in Latin?"  Usually they are much kinder to said friend than themselves.  I ask them why they think that it is ok for said friend to make a 95 but not them?  Basically I am constantly challenging the assumption that perfectionism is expected, healthy, normal, etc..  I am challenging the voice in their head saying they have to be perfect.   We also practiced making mistakes and learning from them.  I praised mistakes and modeled using that as a learning opportunity.  For this child, learning to make mistakes was MORE important than getting all the answers right.  They needed to learn how to get some answers wrong and cope with those terrible feelings that created.

  I am not saying there wasn't wailing and gnashing of teeth.  We had so much drama over the years.  There have been lots of tears and talks but very slowly I have seen some improvement.  Just like anxiety I point it out when it rears its ugly head. "That is your perfectionism talking" or  "that is your anxiety telling you that right now."  I think just being able to name it and recognize it is important for kids.  I think it gives them a starting point to begin to develop coping strategies.  

 

[moonflower]

I agree that naming it should really help; personally I have high anxiety and have modeled naming that for DD13, as well as identifying hormonally driven emotions, but I hadn't thought of doing it w/ her perfectionism!