Does anyone know anything about Pre-med?

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is no specific "pre med" degree, right?  What majors are best for pre-med?  If a student is not looking for the Ivies and just wants a good basic medical degree (after pre-med) , where are the places to look?  Just how competitive is it for those who are not trying to get into something like Harvard Medical school or some other prestigious school?  (The mentions of not looking for the Ivies is because my dd is a hardworking but average student. ) 

[linders]

Someone who has BTDT will provide better info, but DS18 has been looking at this, and my godson just went through this last year, so for what it's worth:

- The acceptance rate for first time applicants to med school is about 40-45% overall - very competitive. The average number of applications per student was something like 16 - and often involves on-site interviews. These sites have stats: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/ and https://bemoacademicconsulting.com/blog/us-med-schools-admissions-statistics.

- Accceptance is based on GPA, MCAT scores, and demonstrated commitment to medicine (e.g., lots of volunteering, working in medical setting - this is where my godson messed up)

- No pre-med degree per se, but courses in biology, inorganic and organic chemistry, etc required. Med schools differ a bit, some wanting biochem, psychology, etc. Because of this, many premeds major in a biological science or chemistry. And for that reason, those classes can be ultra competitive - everyone is trying to get a high GPA. I read somewhere that people who major in something else have a better chance of getting in because of the GPA thing.

- The acceptance rate in-state is a bit higher than OOS, so if you aren't shooting for one of the premier places (Harvard, Johns Hopkins), looking at an in-state medical school might be a good idea.

- DS is looking at those schools that have some kind of bridge - for example, two of our instate colleges have programs where, if your GPA junior year is high, you can bypass the MCAT and apply for the in-state medical school.

- Medicine is a long, hard road, and being a doctor involves more and more paperwork. DS job-shadowed a physician this summer who made him spend several days with his insurance person and accounting person so he could see the whole picture. You really have to want to do medicine.

Edited December 12, 2018 by linders
typo

[RootAnn]

Creekland's ds#2 just went through applying to med schools recently. His undergrad school gave poor advice and hurt his chances. I believe he got in the second time he applied-with better/outside (his college's) help. @creekland should chime in if she sees this. It was a difficult time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Asked my primary doctor's advice today.  😉  His pre-med degree was in biology. 

[gingersmom]

My daughter is about to graduate with her BSN and has many friends applying to medical school (some have been accepted already).

One person is a biomedical major and one is behavioral neuro science. I have a relative who was a biology major and now is at Ivy League medical school.

They all have extensive experience volunteering/research/summer jobs in the medical field combined with very high GPAs and respectable MCAT scores.

[saw]

DD1 is a premed junior at a college that has one of the highest rates of med school acceptance. She's majoring in comp lit, with minors in Chinese, chemistry and possibly classics. Apparently it if starts with a c, she'll major in it. The advice she's been given is that, in addition to doing well in premed classes, med schools like to see students who have studied social sciences/humanities and also like students who are proficient in languages such as Spanish and Chinese. She's done research and had an internship at a hospital. According to the premed advisor, she's on the right track.

What I've gathered is that it is helpful to be at a school with a higher than average rate of acceptance to med school, good premed advising and opportunities for internships/research. Since DD1 is at the start of the process, however, probably best to check this advice with people who have btdt!

[creekland]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

Creekland's ds#2 just went through applying to med schools recently. His undergrad school gave poor advice and hurt his chances. I believe he got in the second time he applied-with better/outside (his college's) help. @creekland should chime in if she sees this. It was a difficult time.

 

Ah yes, a Hive bird told me about this thread.  My lad definitely got horrid advice with applying, but fortunately the doctors he shadowed at his school got wind of it (when he asked for second recommendation letters to apply a second time) and he quickly got off the wait list at Rochester.  He's happily in his second year there now - no regrets at all regarding his choice of profession.  He loves it.

Rochester's Med school is very helpful at relaying what they look for in successful applicants.  I expect most med schools are similar.  Here's their latest Class Profile:

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/MediaLibraries/URMCMedia/education/md/documents/2022-profile.pdf

Change the year in the URL and you'll see it's a template.  They look for similar things year after year.  In the 2021 year, my lad is the juggler.  😉

GPA, MCAT score, medical extra curriculars, and "people" extra curriculars are musts. Research and extra language knowledge is definitely helpful.  Close to 60% of MD med school applicants don't get in anywhere, so it's very useful to be aware of what it takes going in.  My lad had everything required (and loved doing it to get there), but was told he'd be very competitive for a PhD/MD program that paid for med school.  That's where his advisers were 100% wrong. (The research he did was not medical research - they told him that would be a plus as he'd stand out - uh, NO!) They told him by applying for that program he'd be automatically considered for med school.  That's not always true either.  His stats had med schools thinking he'd get accepted somewhere with research, so not really interested in "just" med school.  His "incorrect" research had him nixed for those programs. The "mix" up is where he went wrong and what his medical connections thankfully fixed.

For future consideration, MD and DO graduates are soon to be on equal footing for residencies.  This is expected to hit the DO folks some and the Caribbean folks even more than they already were.  Best odds are with a US MD school acceptance.  State med schools are fine, but all med schools are competitive.  Majors don't really matter (Linders' links are good ones to use - esp AAMC data).

It's a lot of years and a lot of work/dedication, but my lad tells me it's not really work when you enjoy what you're doing.  Be certain the student interested enjoys it!

[8filltheheart]

On 12/12/2018 at 2:31 AM, Jean in Newcastle said:

There is no specific "pre med" degree, right?  What majors are best for pre-med?  If a student is not looking for the Ivies and just wants a good basic medical degree (after pre-med) , where are the places to look?  Just how competitive is it for those who are not trying to get into something like Harvard Medical school or some other prestigious school?  (The mentions of not looking for the Ivies is because my dd is a hardworking but average student. ) 

Just wanted to emphasize that all US medical schools are excellent and all are competitive. Basic medical degree and non-prestigious medical school are misnomers. 

For a hard-working but avg student, I would strongly recommend taking the approach of not majoring in biology. Bc so many students start off as pre-med and don't get accepted to med school, finding a job that pays a decent wage with a bs in bio is difficult. Many students with a 4 yr bio degree struggle with employment. There are so many paths to med school that she can major in another field, meet the med school pre-reqs, and keep multiple paths forward open, including med school.

One of ds's closest friends from UG at Bama is now in med school (she is at a PhD/MD program, though) and she majored in physics. (Her CV is posted online. If you are interested in seeing it, I can post it.)

Dd has 2 roommates who want to attend med school. One is in a bs-md accelerated program (meaning that as long as she meets the criteria of staying in the program, med school admission is guaranteed) and the other is majoring in psychology and minoring in Spanish. Those 2 went abroad to Spain together last summer. Both want to be able to say they speak Spanish at a certain level (not sure what level goal is, though.) 

When it comes to UG, I would make sure that the school has a strong advisory board for assisting students in getting into med school. The advisory board should probably be one of, if not the key, factor in UG school selection.

Edited December 13, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[Tree Frog]

My dd is a first year at a top Texas med school, so she just went through this process. One of the things we looked at when she was considering where to attend UG was the percentage of students placed in med school of each school. The school she chose had a 100% percent placement in either TX or national med schools that year. It was slightly lower for dental school. This year, the placement won't be as high. DD didn't apply for any out of state med schools because they're more expensive (she's funding med school herself) and the schools she was interested in didn't fit the Texas notification timeline.

I think one of the reasons so many pre-med students choose a science major is because there are so many science classes required by the med schools that it's easier to make that their major. I have heard that med schools like to see a well rounded student, so sometimes they prefer a non science major. However, all those science classes still need to be taken and a good advisory board will help your student plan out the UG years to ensure the science classes/labs are taken. I would recommend a student play to her strengths irt her major.

I agree with 8 that a good advisory board is essential. They are the ones who will know the process and be able to advocate for your student wrt the process, the requirements, and the applications. There is a lot that needs to be accomplished prior to the applications and it is time consuming. The student needs to be aware of and follow the timeline. At dd's school, the pre med adviser believes the reason fewer students were called for interviews this year is because they submitted their applications after August.

 There is some important info that the school sends to the med schools your student applies to, ranking your student and giving additional information about your student that the students will never see. The small UG my dd graduated from had one woman in charge who ensured the students took their required classes and another who oversaw specifically the med school applications. Their attention to the many details,  their knowledge of the med schools, and the relationships they had with the med schools was important. In one case, one of dd's classmates didn't get an interview at a school the adviser felt would be a good fit, so she called the school and was able to get the student an interview there. It's important the advisory board knows the pre med student so they can give an accurate (and hopefully excellent) reference for her.

OP's dd will want to speak with someone from each program as well as students currently in the program to get some of the ins and outs. Based on what I've read on this board, the programs can vary quite a bit. DD liked that her UG's pre-health program was small, the advisers knew her by name even before she chose the UG, and the med school acceptance rate was high. Jean's dd will want to compare the schools, looking at how her stats will fit within the program. She will want someplace she can shine as an average student.

I have never heard about the preference for a second language before. DD doesn't speak a second language.

DD also did non medical research all 4 years she did her UG. It didn't cause her problems like it did for Creekland's son, though DD knew she didn't want to do a PhD/MD program. Different UG, different states, different requirements. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by wilrunner

[....]

16 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Asked my primary doctor's advice today.  😉  His pre-med degree was in biology. 

 

I was premed and my degree is in biology.  I was told the biology degree makes you less competitive for med school, because everybody who wants to go to med school majors in biology.  Also, good luck finding a job with a biology degree if you decide not to go to med school...  🙁  If I had to do over again, I would major in something else.  One of our friends, who happens to be a doctor, has a business degree and he says employers were always very interested in him, because of that.  There is a big business side to medicine, unfortunately...    

[....]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 finding a job that pays a decent wage with a bs in bio is difficult. Many students with a 4 yr bio degree struggle with employment.

 

No doubt.  Unless you want to volunteer at the bird sanctuary...that place always seems to have an opening.

*cough cough* Trying to hide my bitterness...

[katilac]

It's extremely competitive. As 8 noted, there is really no such thing as a basic medical degree in the states, not in the same sense as a basic undergraduate degree. 

The chances of an average student getting in depends on what you mean by average. The high school record does not need to be full of APs and such, but the undergrad does need to have very high grades. Getting in without stellar grades is the exception for sure. 

 

[creekland]

2 hours ago, wilrunner said:

DD also did non medical research all 4 years she did her UG. It didn't cause her problems like it did for Creekland's son, though DD knew she didn't want to do a PhD/MD program. Different UG, different states, different requirements. 

 

Just to clarify, my lad's research wasn't a problem at all for med school admissions.  It was only the MD/PhD program his pre-med advisers told him to apply to (knowing his love of research and med school).  We 100% know that's the reason he wasn't chosen to interview at places because he outright asked places he applied (after he was told this was ok).  Had he only applied to med schools he'd have done just fine.  This is where his advisers messed up.  Rochester has even told him he can still do "a" PhD program there if he wants to - just not "the" program from the NIH.  He's pretty solid on wanting to be a doctor rather than a researcher at this point though and loves the school so doesn't consider himself to have gotten a poor deal in the end.  I know overall UR must be pretty pleased they "got" him for med school.  He's in their Top 10% of his class there and already has two solid (legit) job offers for post residency - still several years off. Both of those are from places that know him outside of school.  They don't even care what specialty he chooses. FWIW, that's the state of the doctor shortage in some places and the demand for a good doctor with great people skills.  I can't say he's going to take either offer, but it is nice knowing you've got a job once it's all said and done.

Having a second language is not a requirement, but it is a strong growing preference.  My lad has ASL as his second and also knows some basics of French and Spanish.

Having Bio as a major is not a detriment for med school (check the stats from AAMC).  Many students who want to be doctors naturally love Bio.  It's part of the job.  It is definitely a problem if med school doesn't work out due to job availability and how much those jobs pay... though I know some who have chosen Pharmacy as an alternative.  My lad double majored in Bio and Brain & Cognitive Science.  Plan B for him would have been to go into research with BCS.  He had a summer job/paid internship doing this at Stanford - they wanted him to pursue this path.  That's what led to thinking about MD/PhD.  He loved both.  He has no regrets at all having studied what he loved for undergrad and it had the bonus of making it comparatively easy to get his super high GPA.

All med schools are certainly fine - and competitive to get into.  Just beware of MD vs DO due to their soon competing for residency placements and MD being preferred in most places.  Residency placement is the sticking point stopping some who successfully complete med school.  There aren't enough spots for all, so those are also competitive.

[creekland]

Also note that any college class taken while in high school counts toward the GPA for med school even if the undergrad school did not count it for credit.  AP does not count.  At least a couple of med schools also wanted my lad's ACT score reported.  I remember having to go find it!  Most did not though.  There are some differences among them.

[creekland]

One more recommendation... I know many on this board don't care for College Confidential, but their Pre-Med (and Med school) forum is loaded with good advice from folks who have BTDT. It's pretty easy to figure out who has very worthwhile knowledge to glean from.  I still learn things from there as I keep up on it all (no longer trusting in house guidance 100%). It could be worth reading some of the threads:

https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/

[daijobu]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:31 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

There is no specific "pre med" degree, right?  What majors are best for pre-med?  If a student is not looking for the Ivies and just wants a good basic medical degree (after pre-med) , where are the places to look?  Just how competitive is it for those who are not trying to get into something like Harvard Medical school or some other prestigious school?  (The mentions of not looking for the Ivies is because my dd is a hardworking but average student. ) 

 

What do you mean by "average student?"  Does she get C's in her high schools classes?  Or is she "only" getting a 4 on AP chem, AP bio, AP physics, and AP calculus?  Unless she plans to turn herself around, a C student probably won't cut it.   It's fine to be hard-working, but if you aren't making high grades and test scores, then it doesn't matter.  

Many colleges do offer a pre-med undergraduate major, but I don't recommend it.  I recommend she major is a field that is interesting to her and one she will excel in.  And I mean any major:  electrical engineering, English, computer science, history, whatever gets her excited.  This intellectual curiosity is extremely important in med school admissions.  Doctors do not see themselves as merely technicians who push drugs and surgeries, but as academics who are curious about the world at large.   Connect with a professor and do some research in a field that excites you.  If you are studying EE, consider working in robotics and perhaps artificial limbs.  If you are interested in history, is there a professor studying history of medicine?   Your dd will really shine in her interviews if she's describing something she loves.

The best route IMO if you aren't interested in an academic career (and even if you are) is to enroll at either a solid land-grant state university that feeds into your state medical school.  I'm thinking for example enrolling at Iowa State and then applying to Univ. of Iowa for med school.  Or whatever your state's equivalent is.  That way you are minimizing your tuition and have plenty of opportunities among many different departments.  Alternatively, if money isn't an issue, or you can swing financial aid, enroll at a small nurturing liberal arts school where professors will make sure you don't fall through the cracks, plus your student won't be competing with grad students for interesting research positions. 

The name of your med school doesn't matter very much unless you are going into academia.  

 

[workingmom]

There's a great podcast called the premed years. Has lots of info about testing, interviews, etc.