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Slache

Book rec on bipolar disorder?

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To be specific I am related to someone with bipolar 2 who is a chronic liar and causes damage to everyone around them. I want to help understand things, add ease to our conversations, and if possible help prevent further damage.

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Hmm...I wouldn't assume those characteristics were caused by the bipolar disorder. That might just be a "difficult person" thing, or perhaps indicative of a different disorder. 

Edited by mellifera33

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20 hours ago, mellifera33 said:

Hmm...I wouldn't assume those characteristics were caused by the bipolar disorder. That might just be a "difficult person" thing, or perhaps indicative of a different disorder. 

 

Couldn’t pressured speech and grandiosity in the manic phase work together to give others the impression that the BP individual is a liar? That’s often difficult to be around and might result in damaged relationships. I don’t say this to blame BPD for otherwise general bad behavior, just pointing out it’s possible (kind of living it with a SIL this past year, who actually has a clinical diagnosis). 

I’d also be interested in a good book recommendation.

 

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16 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Couldn’t pressured speech and grandiosity in the manic phase work together to give others the impression that the BP individual is a liar? That’s often difficult to be around and might result in damaged relationships. I don’t say this to blame BPD for otherwise general bad behavior, just pointing out it’s possible (kind of living it with a SIL this past year, who actually has a clinical diagnosis). 

I’d also be interested in a good book recommendation.

I began a thread in Reddit with many helpful responses. It's actually a subreddit for people with BD, not family members, but it was the best I could find.

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Bipolar could coexist with BPD — borderline personality disorder ?  BPD seems more related to chronic lying. 

 

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https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-and-lying.html

I looked it up to learn more. Possibly the above link would be of help. 

I know someone who “lies” probably related to bipolar sometimes because he goes into phases where he is out of touch with reality. Also though I think he has a borderline personality.  

It seems like in that case minimizing contact so as not to be harmed by his mental disorder is necessary. 

I am not aware of anyone I know irl personally with bipolar disorder who steals.  

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39 minutes ago, Pen said:

https://www.bipolar-lives.com/bipolar-and-lying.html

I looked it up to learn more. Possibly the above link would be of help. 

I know someone who “lies” probably related to bipolar sometimes because he goes into phases where he is out of touch with reality. Also though I think he has a borderline personality.  

It seems like in that case minimizing contact so as not to be harmed by his mental disorder is necessary. 

I am not aware of anyone I know irl personally with bipolar disorder who steals.  

Yes, the lies are completely hysterical at times. There is BPD in the family.

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I just wanted to point out that BPD can be used to refer to both Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder although there is no link between the two. One is a mood disorder and the other a personality disorder. They are not commonly comorbid.

In general bipolar people are no more likely to lie on a regular day to day (non manic) basis than any other person. Bipolar people are more likely to lie during periods of mania when they have delusions or hallucinations although I could harding blame them for this as they by definition call not tell the truth from a lie in that situation. Lies like these are usually obvious unless you are inclined to believe that suddenly became "The King of the World" or some such thing. 

If a person is having delusions and/or hallucinations due to bipolar then they would be classified as type 1. So if the person to whom you are referring does indeed have bipolar 2 it is highly unlikely to be the cause of the issues you are concerned with but would more likely be some other comorbid condition. There is also the possibility that she was misdiagnosed and is in fact bipolar 1 and having delusions and hallucinations.

I myself am bipolar and have lots of books about having bipolar but not so many on dealing with a bipolar person. I will look through my library tomorrow though and see what I can come up with.

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My relative has received both bipolar and boarderline dxes. I do not know if the professionals overrode one with the other, or if they consider them to be comorbid (for her.)

I have read books/anthologies by people with bipolar, about their experiences.  I don't have titles handy b/c they had been loaned to me by a friend who is working on her PsyD.  I found that they did strengthen my empathy, which has been helpful for my own healing. I wish my relative didn't have to suffer so much pain. But she still can't really be in my family's life outside of extenuating circumstances because of what it does to us.

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What type of lies?   The grandious lies might be a part of bipolar but If they are more manipulative type lies then I dont see that as a part of bipolar.

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14 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

In general bipolar people are no more likely to lie on a regular day to day (non manic) basis than any other person. 

Why?

11 hours ago, Ottakee said:

What type of lies?   The grandious lies might be a part of bipolar but If they are more manipulative type lies then I dont see that as a part of bipolar.

Everything from "they lost my paycheck and won't give it to me" to "you used to hit me don't pretend you didn't." This was supposedly me hitting her so I would know if it was true. (Deleted)

Each lie gets her out of trouble or work. I can't go grocery shopping anymore because he works there. I can't take the trash out because my dad broke my wrist but I didn't go to the ER so he wouldn't go to jail. I need money for my emergency medical service because my boss lost my hours and is refusing to pay me.

If you lend her money or nice things she denies it. She borrowed my husband's SEGA. First she claimed it was a gift, now she's claiming it was stolen so she bought her own.

Edited by Slache

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One book that might be helpful is I Am Not Sick - I Don't Need Help.  Its main focus is on how to help someone with schizophrenia, but it also has a lot of helpful, general advice on how to talk with someone who has any mental illness and is not thinking correctly.  (Do you correct them? Do you try and prove them wrong? Do you go along with what they're saying? Etc.)  Another book that I've heard many people recommend is Boundaries (Cloud and Townsend).  I haven't read it and I don't think it is specifically about dealing with someone with a mental illness, but its often recommended to people who are close to someone with a mental illness.  I believe it's about putting up healthy boundaries with the possibility of keeping up the relationship. 

So, neither of those will go into detail about bipolar disorder, but maybe there's helpful information in them anyway.

Edited by J-rap
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6 minutes ago, J-rap said:

One book that might be helpful is I Am Not Sick - I Don't Need Help.  Its main focus is on how to help someone with schizophrenia, but it also has a lot of helpful, general advice on how to talk with someone who has any mental illness and is not thinking correctly.  (Do you correct them? Do you try and prove them wrong? Do you go along with what they're saying? Etc.)  Another book that I've heard many people recommend is Boundaries (Cloud and Townsend).  I haven't read it and I don't think it is specifically about dealing with someone with a mental illness, but its often recommended to people who are close to someone with a mental illness.  I believe it's about putting up healthy boundaries with the possibility of keeping up the relationship. 

So, neither of those will go into detail about bipolar disorder, but maybe there's helpful information in them anyway.

I have read Boundaries and I really liked it. It showed me not only where I wasn't putting up proper boundaries but also where I was abusing other people's boundaries without realizing it. Boundaries in Marriage is on my list.

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11 hours ago, Slache said:

 

Has schizophrenia been ruled out?  Seems like very distorted reality.  I would want a med review and a further evaluation.

Even if it is just bipolar this person is not stable.

Edited by Ottakee

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2 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Has schizophrenia been ruled out?  Seems like very distorted reality.  The accusing people of things that you are certain that never happened could become very damaging for the person accused.   I would want a med review and a further evaluation.

Even if it is just bipolar this person is not stable.

Yes. 

I can't say it never happened because I wasn't there, I just find it a little strange. She has no interest in pressing charges or telling anyone because it makes her uncomfortable.

Not stable? Yeah. I'm just now learning this. Like 18 new facts just came to a head and they want money to fix damage and physical presence to deal with suicide watch and all sorts of things.

This is going to sound really bad. Personally, I think it's a spoiled brat problem. I could totally be wrong. And I woukd never say that to her, but ever since the diagnosis everything has been about getting her whatever she needs to be as comfortable as possible. We are supposed to ignore the lies, we are supposed to pick up her messes, we're supposed to pay her bills... This is all to ensure we don't have another suicide attempt, and this is how I have been informed we are going to run things for the rest of our lives.

Please delete the 9 people issue. 🙂

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Slache, you cannot be held hostage this way. You need to be able to negotiate what you can do in conjunction with her cooperation with a sound, physician-managed treatment plan. Even then, you need a protective boundary for you and your immediate family. Things may be different if this were your own child, but sounds like it’s not.

FWIW, in my admittedly limited experience (mostly dealing with one close person), the behavior you describe is not what I’ve seen in a BP manic phase. What you describe sounds like it needs further evaluation. “Spoiled brat” may be a layman’s diagnosis, but I understand where you’re coming from, having watched a friend deal with her daughter in an “anything to prevent suicide” way that involved great indulgence. I think it’s very hard for a parent to know what to do in such situations. (Y’all please forgive me if it seems I am lightly addressing a very serious topic - certainly don’t mean to minimize the risk of suicide, but I’ve watched this young woman really play on her mother’s fear to get what she wants - absolutely a no-win situation for the mom.) 

Anyway, if the topic is veering to self-harm, might want to add a trigger warning to the thread title. 

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10 hours ago, Slache said:

Why?

Everything from "they lost my paycheck and won't give it to me" to "you used to hit me don't pretend you didn't." This was supposedly me hitting her so I would know if it was true. (Deleted)

Each lie gets her out of trouble or work. I can't go grocery shopping anymore because he works there. I can't take the trash out because my dad broke my wrist but I didn't go to the ER so he wouldn't go to jail. I need money for my emergency medical service because my boss lost my hours and is refusing to pay me.

If you lend her money or nice things she denies it. She borrowed my husband's SEGA. First she claimed it was a gift, now she's claiming it was stolen so she bought her own.

 

This doesn’t sound like the person I mentioned who lies sometimes as part of being bipolar. His are more ... whacky and at least if one knows him more clearly untrue and often accompanied by rapid manic speaking.  He is more likely in those states to declare himself the owner of some computer company and say he is going to gift the other person some wondrous imaginary computer than to ask for something.  

What you are describing sounds more like manipulative borderline personality or sociopathic lying. 

It sounds like you need to change your own behavior vis a vis this person. 

If this person seriously seems to be a suicide danger she should be in a psych ward for evaluation and treatment. I am sorry that you are being held hostage to this person’s suicide threats. Is your family in danger from her?

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11 hours ago, Slache said:

Why?

Everything from "they lost my paycheck and won't give it to me" to "you used to hit me don't pretend you didn't." This was supposedly me hitting her so I would know if it was true. (Deleted)

Each lie gets her out of trouble or work. I can't go grocery shopping anymore because he works there. I can't take the trash out because my dad broke my wrist but I didn't go to the ER so he wouldn't go to jail. I need money for my emergency medical service because my boss lost my hours and is refusing to pay me.

If you lend her money or nice things she denies it. She borrowed my husband's SEGA. First she claimed it was a gift, now she's claiming it was stolen so she bought her own.

Because it just isn't part of the typical bipolar profile. It is not a common or even uncommonly known symptom. Of course a bipolar person can lie but except for the conditions I listed before there is nothing about bipolar disorder that would make them more prone to lying than the average person. I agree with others than this does not sound like bipolar that is causing these issues. It sounds like she is either misdiagnosed or has another comorbid condition.

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13 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

My relative has received both bipolar and boarderline dxes. I do not know if the professionals overrode one with the other, or if they consider them to be comorbid (for her.)

 

It is possible to have both just not common. Common comorbid conditions are things like ADD, OCD, anxiety, insomnia. In regard to your relative it does sound like comorbid conditions because there is not any real similarity between these dxes that would make it likely that one was diagnosed and then the other diagnosis fit better to override the original. It would make for a complicated presentation though and it may have taken a while to tease out the two different dxes.

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Do you observe typically manic and or typically depressed episodes in this person? 

 

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I would look into books on boundaries, etc.  It is NOT helpful to someone struggling with a mental illness to smooth everything out for them and remove all incentive to seek the help they need.

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Thank you for all responses.

5 hours ago, Seasider too said:

Slache, you cannot be held hostage this way. You need to be able to negotiate what you can do in conjunction with her cooperation with a sound, physician-managed treatment plan. Even then, you need a protective boundary for you and your immediate family. Things may be different if this were your own child, but sounds like it’s not.

FWIW, in my admittedly limited experience (mostly dealing with one close person), the behavior you describe is not what I’ve seen in a BP manic phase. What you describe sounds like it needs further evaluation. “Spoiled brat” may be a layman’s diagnosis, but I understand where you’re coming from, having watched a friend deal with her daughter in an “anything to prevent suicide” way that involved great indulgence. I think it’s very hard for a parent to know what to do in such situations. (Y’all please forgive me if it seems I am lightly addressing a very serious topic - certainly don’t mean to minimize the risk of suicide, but I’ve watched this young woman really play on her mother’s fear to get what she wants - absolutely a no-win situation for the mom.) 

Anyway, if the topic is veering to self-harm, might want to add a trigger warning to the thread title. 

We are not being held hostage. We live very far away from the situation and after some recent discoveries I've decided I should know more about the condition.

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

This doesn’t sound like the person I mentioned who lies sometimes as part of being bipolar. His are more ... whacky and at least if one knows him more clearly untrue and often accompanied by rapid manic speaking.  He is more likely in those states to declare himself the owner of some computer company and say he is going to gift the other person some wondrous imaginary computer than to ask for something.  

What you are describing sounds more like manipulative borderline personality or sociopathic lying. 

It sounds like you need to change your own behavior vis a vis this person. 

If this person seriously seems to be a suicide danger she should be in a psych ward for evaluation and treatment. I am sorry that you are being held hostage to this person’s suicide threats. Is your family in danger from her?

The suicidal threat only came to play when she didn't get something really big that she wanted and went away immediately after getting it and has never returned.

We are in absolutely no danger. 

2 hours ago, Pen said:

Do you observe typically manic and or typically depressed episodes in this person? 

Depressed. I have never seen anything but depressed. I was very confused by the diagnosis 

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6 hours ago, Slache said:

This is going to sound really bad. Personally, I think it's a spoiled brat problem. I could totally be wrong. And I woukd never say that to her, but ever since the diagnosis everything has been about getting her whatever she needs to be as comfortable as possible. We are supposed to ignore the lies, we are supposed to pick up her messes, we're supposed to pay her bills... This is all to ensure we don't have another suicide attempt, and this is how I have been informed we are going to run things for the rest of our lives.

Please delete the 9 people issue. 🙂

 

*hugs*

 

Your not alone.  This is my DIL to a T.  Doesn’t get her way.....make up some other high drama mental health crisis to control you.  What you describe is not the way to handle these types of people. 

Stefanie

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14 minutes ago, Sdel said:

 

*hugs*

 

Your not alone.  This is my DIL to a T.  Doesn’t get her way.....make up some other high drama mental health crisis to control you.  What you describe is not the way to handle these types of people. 

Stefanie

(((Stefanie)))

No, it's not. We have mostly been able to remove ourselves from the problem.

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1 hour ago, Slache said:

Thank you for all responses.

We are not being held hostage. We live very far away from the situation and after some recent discoveries I've decided I should know more about the condition.

The suicidal threat only came to play when she didn't get something really big that she wanted and went away immediately after getting it and has never returned.

We are in absolutely no danger. 

Depressed. I have never seen anything but depressed. I was very confused by the diagnosis 

 

I’m glad there’s not a serious danger. And that you aren’t being held hostage.   I guess I misunderstood what you meant by: 

7 hours ago, Slache said:

they want money to fix damage and physical presence to deal with suicide watch and all sorts of things.

 

 

7 hours ago, Slache said:

ever since the diagnosis everything has been about getting her whatever she needs to be as comfortable as possible. We are supposed to ignore the lies, we are supposed to pick up her messes, we're supposed to pay her bills... This is all to ensure we don't have another suicide attempt, and this is how I have been informed we are going to run things for the rest of our lives.

 

 

No need to explain. 

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1 hour ago, Slache said:

The suicidal threat only came to play when she didn't get something really big that she wanted and went away immediately after getting it and has never returned.

Depressed. I have never seen anything but depressed. I was very confused by the diagnosis 

 

It is possible that the “depressed” is a preferred manipulation tactic, one that has been learned as getting the most bang for their buck so to speak.

That is what I suspect of my DIL.  She says all the right things to get people to jump or make excuses to not be held accountable, but it doesn’t actually come across as real.

Stefanie

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3 minutes ago, Sdel said:

It is possible that the “depressed” is a preferred manipulation tactic, one that has been learned as getting the most bang for their buck so to speak.

That is what I suspect of my DIL.  She says all the right things to get people to jump or make excuses to not be held accountable, but it doesn’t actually come across as real.

Stefanie

Maybe. I'm confused. I don't drama. And they don't come across as real. I thought Pen and I were on the same page with "grandiose lies" but we were talking about two different things. Just kind of idiotically obvious lies.

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13 minutes ago, Pen said:

No need to explain. 

We will not be complying with the requests. 🙂

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20 minutes ago, Slache said:

Maybe. I'm confused. I don't drama. And they don't come across as real. I thought Pen and I were on the same page with "grandiose lies" but we were talking about two different things. Just kind of idiotically obvious lies.

 

Is it the kind of lie/situation where if you were to press the issue you’d get them to circle around to 5 different versions of  what was going on; like they are fishing for the situation you’ll buy into that gives them what they want?

Stefanie

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6 minutes ago, Sdel said:

 

Is it the kind of lie/situation where if you were to press the issue you’d get them to circle around to 5 different versions of  what was going on; like they are fishing for the situation you’ll buy into that gives them what they want?

Stefanie

Yes! We're talling about the same person. Wanna meet in person and play practical jokes on her?

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7 hours ago, Slache said:

Yes! We're talling about the same person. Wanna meet in person and play practical jokes on her?

 

Ugh.  FWIW, I don’t think it’s bipolar either, even though they may have a diagnosis.  

Best thing to do is to never play their game and eventually they’ll go away.  After 5 years of not getting her way (and being unpleasantly put on the spot in return for her efforts) DIL doesn’t try with us anymore. We only get run ins when whatever games she’s playing with her parents or my stepson run afoul of us.

Stefanie

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If this is an adult such that no one else got the diagnosis direct from psychiatrist, the diagnosis may also be a lie. 

Is this person’s parent who told you about it a reliable honest person?

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5 hours ago, Pen said:

If this is an adult such that no one else got the diagnosis direct from psychiatrist, the diagnosis may also be a lie. 

Is this person’s parent who told you about it a reliable honest person?

I need that laughing green emoji.

We believe she was diagnosed as she says.

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I might have missed this, but is she on medication to manage her condition? 

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7 minutes ago, Pen said:

I might have missed this, but is she on medication to manage her condition? 

Yes, but I believe she's gone off so she can lose weight for an upcoming event. What could go wrong?

 And she's not in counseling because she doesn't like counseling.

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34 minutes ago, Slache said:

Yes, but I believe she's gone off so she can lose weight for an upcoming event. What could go wrong?

Is that that sarcastic rhetorical question? Or real question?

34 minutes ago, Slache said:

 

 And she's not in counseling because she doesn't like counseling.

 

That Figures. 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

Is that that sarcastic rhetorical question? Or real question?

 

That Figures. 

Rhetorical. Sorry.

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My dh is bipolar and for what it's worth, I agree that just from what you've mentioned, it doesn't sound as if these issues are from the bipolar. My dh told some whoppers, but that was pre-medication during full-blown manic episodes fueled by alcohol. Now that he's well-medicated and fairly normal, he doesn't lie any more than the next person.

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1 hour ago, Mergath said:

My dh is bipolar and for what it's worth, I agree that just from what you've mentioned, it doesn't sound as if these issues are from the bipolar. My dh told some whoppers, but that was pre-medication during full-blown manic episodes fueled by alcohol. Now that he's well-medicated and fairly normal, he doesn't lie any more than the next person.

Yes. We've come to the conclusion that things are not as they seem. There is more there and we feel that distance and boundaries are appropriate at this point.

Thanks. 🙂

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