Would you ever make your child just leave his school?

[Janeway]

My oldest son claims to love his school. I think he more or less like this particular girl there. He has Aspergers. He loves the attention she gives him apparently. Son is also a very fast learner. He starts a class and then will read ahead and already have the material covered. For example, he started Latin two but then read ahead. So the teacher let him take a test out and he tested in to Latin 3. He had the book over the summer and just liked Latin. He loves to read advanced books (he is getting a book on Greek for Christmas and Kant's book of Pure Reason, an edition from the 1700's). 

 

He has gotten himself enough ahead in his classes that he is being a PITA to his teachers. We are talking frequent demerits.  He says he does not get why he just has to sit through class while everyone reads passages from books when he took home the book and read them completely the first night or week. 

 

I am unsure if he needs to learn to not study ahead or at least not be a jerk about it in class, or if this is more of an issue where he is a fast learner and studies ahead and this will actually help him in college so I do not want to squash it. I have no clue what to do. He is now flunking one class (stopped doing the work when the teacher gave the entire semester to do work he completed in the first week, so now he gets zero on all participation style grades while getting A's on tests) and getting c's in two other classes (again, zeros in anything that relates more to participation while still earning As on tests). 

 

Should I encourage him to give up and leave the school or encourage him to assimilate and just follow the rules as they are? Will assimilating in the high school environment help him for the future? Or take from him something that actually will help him succeed at college?

[prairiewindmomma]

Janeway, there are a number of incredibly brilliant kids who remain highly unemployable (like 80%, by some studies) because they don't have the life/social/EF skills to hold a job.  I would completely set aside any concerns about whether this is a good academic fit right now and really address the fact that he's not interacting appropriately in a classroom setting.  I don't think the right answer is to avoid addressing this major issue by pulling him out of the school setting.  If you do, I think you're highly likely to see this pop up again at the university level where the stakes are a lot higher.

[Farrar]

I wouldn't remove a teen from the schooling situation they like unless they circumstances were pretty dire. These are not.

I agree with Prairiewindmomma. And I'll add... he wants to be there. So this is an opportunity in that sense. Figuring out how to fit in when he doesn't want to be somewhere is going to be radically harder.

I have mixed feelings about this as a challenge... high school isn't really like the real world. But young people do have to learn how to fit their behavior to the moment - and when to take the consequences of not doing that. And this is a greater challenge for kids on the spectrum. I don't think high school is the only way to learn this skill and it wouldn't be the best way for all kids. But right now, he wants to be there and meet this challenge. So you should use it. Don't worry about the academics - it sounds like he'll be fine academically no matter what. The life skills piece is what he's learning.

[RootAnn]

I would be getting involved as a mom. It sounds like the Latin teacher was proactive--good for him/her. I would be contacting the teachers in the classes that he is ahead in to see if he can be moved to a higher up/new class in the new semester for science or math classes (if those are ones he's alteady covered the material). He should have to take end-of-class exams, of course, but theoretically, those won't be an issue.

For humanities classes (English, history), I would work with the teacher and the school's resource department to develop a strategy to help my kid understand the importance of class participation and discussion. The teacher, you, your DH, and whomever else at the school who understands kids who are on the spectrum need to have a meeting with your son where the teacher lays out how your son should be involved going forward.

It doesn't matter if he finished a book three weeks before, he can still talk about it in class. If some class periods are used to do work he has already completed, the teacher can give him supplemental reading with the understanding that when the class period is being utilized for group  participation, he will put away the alternate assignment and contribute to the group work or discussion.

I think a combo of helping him understand how to interact in the classroom when he already knows the material, acceleration where appropriate, and independent studies will get closer to meeting his needs and helping him adapt to the school environment. But, it will take legwork, communication, and intervention on your part, Janeway.

[Janeway]

He says he wants to be there and does not want to leave. If he had asked to leave, I would have taken him out already. Today, he got another demerit for not working on the assignment in class today even though he was already done. When I ask the teacher what she would suggest he do so as to not receive a demerit when participation means working on that assignment and he has already completed it. She said he just needs to be doing what is assigned at the time. And it is the same 2 teachers basically. I do not know if trying to teach him how to handle this situation (I do not even know how to handle it, it seems unreasonable to me) will teach him any skill that would transfer to college or the work place.  Today, they were supposed to use their time (and got a participation grade for it) during class to work on a paper that is due tomorrow. I always taught him if the paper is due tomorrow, it should have already been done previously. Now he has a demerit because he had already completed the assignment therefore, was not working on it during class. It is not a discussion thing. It was writing where he completed the assignment over the weekend. I feel like they are training the kids to wait until the last second to do their work.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Janeway

[Janeway]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Janeway, there are a number of incredibly brilliant kids who remain highly unemployable (like 80%, by some studies) because they don't have the life/social/EF skills to hold a job.  I would completely set aside any concerns about whether this is a good academic fit right now and really address the fact that he's not interacting appropriately in a classroom setting.  I don't think the right answer is to avoid addressing this major issue by pulling him out of the school setting.  If you do, I think you're highly likely to see this pop up again at the university level where the stakes are a lot higher.

 

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I wouldn't remove a teen from the schooling situation they like unless they circumstances were pretty dire. These are not.

I agree with Prairiewindmomma. And I'll add... he wants to be there. So this is an opportunity in that sense. Figuring out how to fit in when he doesn't want to be somewhere is going to be radically harder.

I have mixed feelings about this as a challenge... high school isn't really like the real world. But young people do have to learn how to fit their behavior to the moment - and when to take the consequences of not doing that. And this is a greater challenge for kids on the spectrum. I don't think high school is the only way to learn this skill and it wouldn't be the best way for all kids. But right now, he wants to be there and meet this challenge. So you should use it. Don't worry about the academics - it sounds like he'll be fine academically no matter what. The life skills piece is what he's learning.

 

[Janeway]

I totally messed up trying to multiple quote. So..well..ok..that is how it turned out. Sorry.

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I would be getting involved as a mom. It sounds like the Latin teacher was proactive--good for him/her. I would be contacting the teachers in the classes that he is ahead in to see if he can be moved to a higher up/new class in the new semester for science or math classes (if those are ones he's alteady covered the material). He should have to take end-of-class exams, of course, but theoretically, those won't be an issue.

For humanities classes (English, history), I would work with the teacher and the school's resource department to develop a strategy to help my kid understand the importance of class participation and discussion. The teacher, you, your DH, and whomever else at the school who understands kids who are on the spectrum need to have a meeting with your son where the teacher lays out how your son should be involved going forward.

It doesn't matter if he finished a book three weeks before, he can still talk about it in class. If some class periods are used to do work he has already completed, the teacher can give him supplemental reading with the understanding that when the class period is being utilized for group  participation, he will put away the alternate assignment and contribute to the group work or discussion.

I think a combo of helping him understand how to interact in the classroom when he already knows the material, acceleration where appropriate, and independent studies will get closer to meeting his needs and helping him adapt to the school environment. But, it will take legwork, communication, and intervention on your part, Janeway.

It was not talking today. It was a written assignment. Everyone was supposed to be working on the written assignment but he did the work over the weekend.

[Farrar]

What you're describing is unreasonable. But what is he actually doing when he's not working on the assignment? Has he turned it in? Is he reading quietly or is he breaking a policy in another way? I'd definitely get involved and work on his behalf in that case. They need to have an alternative for kids who are genuinely finished. But I still wouldn't remove this particular kid if he wants to be there.

[Janeway]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

What you're describing is unreasonable. But what is he actually doing when he's not working on the assignment? Has he turned it in? Is he reading quietly or is he breaking a policy in another way? I'd definitely get involved and work on his behalf in that case. They need to have an alternative for kids who are genuinely finished. But I still wouldn't remove this particular kid if he wants to be there.

He was working on a different assignment for a different class as all his work for that class was done.

[Farrar]

Janeway, I think you need to go in and have a meeting with the teachers. I think the easy thing would be to bring him home, but I don't know if, from what you're describing, that would be the  best thing for him.

[Janeway]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Janeway, I think you need to go in and have a meeting with the teachers. I think the easy thing would be to bring him home, but I don't know if, from what you're describing, that would be the  best thing for him.

He really wants to stay at the school. He loves it there, even though he is constantly in trouble over this unreasonable thing with the same teachers over and over again. He has more teachers he loves and gets along with than this is happening with, but still, this is affecting his grades and everything.

[Lucy the Valiant]

I'm guessing his attitude (whether real or perceived-by-the-teacher) is a piece of the puzzle . . . whether or not it should be. 

Would he be amenable to meeting with the teachers WITH you? I'm imagining a brainstorming session . . . a list of options for Kid to accelerate independently while still working cooperatively in the classroom. 

 

- if written homework is already done, an artistic representation of novel characters

- other things he can read outside of class that widen his learning / understanding, but allow him to read the "class book" on a community schedule

- an ongoing portfolio of "extra work" (example: class reads Lord of the Rings, he creates Elvish inscriptions when he finishes far ahead . . . OR writes poetry to accompany To Kill a Mockingbird . . . OR researches the historical time period connected to the novel / book?)

- can he read the English novels in his foreign language?

- worst case scenario: Can he accomplish independent online courses in a study hall during just the "worst" of the trouble classes?

 

The truth is that schools are communities; they are NOT ideal learning environments for individual learners, but they (at least the good ones) DO provide context for getting along with a group of people. And as a PP mentioned, learning now those "get-along" skills may very well be the best thing he takes from his experiences in that school. 

[Lecka]

He could print his paper and look over it for revisions.  

He knows these two teachers are this way and needs to get with the program.  

We have vaguely similar issues with my older son and it is very easy for him to come across as disrespectful.  He needs to work to come across in a respectful way.  

He is old enough to do what is expected of him.  He may think it is stupid but there are always going to be stupid things.  

I think these things sound on the stupid side but I would be telling my son he needs to get with the program and do what the other kids do.  

Last year he made bad impressions with a couple of teachers who then did not give him “the benefit of the doubt” the rest of the year. They thought he was disrespectful and the kind of kid who would comment about how they ran the class.  He felt “picked on” then with some things that maybe would have been let go if he had a better reputation with the teacher.  

He would not see why it would matter, he thought “fair is fair” and didn’t think if he was disrespectful (as it would come across, whether he thought so or not) that the teacher would have that as an impression, and not understand why that would influence an interaction the next week.  

This year it seems like maybe he has figured out that he should make a good impression with his teachers.  Or maybe it’s just the teachers he has this year.  

We have had to have many discussions and my son has had to have consequences at school as well including things he did not think were fair because he didn’t understand he came across the way he did and how that would mean that in the future maybe he got less benefit of the doubt.  

[Lecka]

Something to consider is that sometimes teachers who care more put more effort into things like this because they see it as a need.  A teacher who cares less might blow it off.  

I have been appreciative of teachers who have my son a dose of the real world and personal accountability.  

There is a balance where I don’t want things to be unfair or too negative.  But a teacher holding a child accountable can have the same look of finding problems.  

But it can be hard to tell.  My son certainly does not have the maturity to know if the teacher “picking on him” is teaching him to be accountable, or is really picking on him.  

 

 

[Lecka]

But really — it is possible the teachers who “don’t have problems” with him are letting some things go and maybe it could be better if they didn’t.  

It’s not that I think that is the case, but I would be considering it and keeping it in mind.  

[Lecka]

There is one more thing..... I went to a meeting last year with all his core teachers, and they ALL said my son rushed to complete his work.  They all said it.  

I had no idea of that whatsoever.  

Two of his teachers took it more seriously and really thought he should take time to check over his work or spend more time on it.  

The other ones said things more like “we see it with a lot of kids this year in 7th, it’s not that big of a deal, but if he is still doing it when he gets to high school it will cause problems for him.”

So — I had no idea of that, nothing I saw at home made me suspect that, and nothing my son said made me suspect he was perceived that way.  

But yet that is part of how he was perceived by all of his teachers.  

Anyway — after I heard that from the teacher meeting then I could speak with my son about it.  

He had no idea he could/should take his time more and either put in more effort or appear to care more about it.  

So — I think it’s worth it to talk to the teachers.  There may be something that you and he both currently have no idea about, that the teachers are seeing.  There could be something that is not even on your radar right now.  That is how the rushing was for us.  We just were not aware of it.  

 

[Janeway]

On 12/4/2018 at 7:50 AM, Lecka said:

But really — it is possible the teachers who “don’t have problems” with him are letting some things go and maybe it could be better if they didn’t.  

It’s not that I think that is the case, but I would be considering it and keeping it in mind.  

This is the first time he has had this problem but he has been there for a year and a half. So it is all the teachers liked him last year and he even won awards. This year started fine. And then he wrote a poem about how much he hated a teacher, I think about two months in to the school year. Now, ever since, it has been constant demerits and low grades. Today, he got two demerits because he threw a paper of trash to the trash can from about 5 feet away and missed. It angered the teacher and he was given two demerits and the teacher completely berated him in front of the class. 

[...................]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:36 PM, Janeway said:

My oldest son claims to love his school. I think he more or less like this particular girl there. He has Aspergers. He loves the attention she gives him apparently. Son is also a very fast learner. He starts a class and then will read ahead and already have the material covered. For example, he started Latin two but then read ahead. So the teacher let him take a test out and he tested in to Latin 3. He had the book over the summer and just liked Latin. He loves to read advanced books (he is getting a book on Greek for Christmas and Kant's book of Pure Reason, an edition from the 1700's). 

 

He has gotten himself enough ahead in his classes that he is being a PITA to his teachers. We are talking frequent demerits.  He says he does not get why he just has to sit through class while everyone reads passages from books when he took home the book and read them completely the first night or week. 

 

I am unsure if he needs to learn to not study ahead or at least not be a jerk about it in class, or if this is more of an issue where he is a fast learner and studies ahead and this will actually help him in college so I do not want to squash it. I have no clue what to do. He is now flunking one class (stopped doing the work when the teacher gave the entire semester to do work he completed in the first week, so now he gets zero on all participation style grades while getting A's on tests) and getting c's in two other classes (again, zeros in anything that relates more to participation while still earning As on tests). 

 

Should I encourage him to give up and leave the school or encourage him to assimilate and just follow the rules as they are? Will assimilating in the high school environment help him for the future? Or take from him something that actually will help him succeed at college?

 

He sounds like my husband as a kid who eventually lefto college after one semester, and worked through mutliple low level jobs before finally starting his career path. He's now at Google but his life was much, much harder than it should have been, because he did not learn to function respectfully and patiently in a classroom environment.

I think that needs to be addressed.  THere are many classes in the community college, where my son is literally light years ahead of the entire class (and they are 20 and he is 16) but yet, he has to learn to communicate, be helpful, respect the class and teacher and overall it ends up being a positive experience anyway.  He has been asked to help out in one class, privately tutor another person (asked by the professor) and given tons of extra credit projects.  Some professors will make use of a gifted, cheerful student and be very glad for it.  

High school is particularly slow moving and annoying in that regard, and it feels like jail. I would see if your son can improve his attitude but also consider dual enrollment as a better option for him.  I don't think homeschooling him again at this point would be good because you would be enforcing the idea that he can be a bit of a jerk to the teachers and situation, and that hte situation is the problem and not him. Finding a more fit situation makes sense (dual enrollment) but bringing him back home to do whatever he wants probably is not the best option at this time, for his character.  Good luck