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Michelle Conde

Male Teacher Punished for Refusing to Watch

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5 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

So - just in case anyone is worried about this -The Tampa bay Times is considered a center-left paper with high marks for factual reporting.

My guess is they quite properly reported on this because it is local to them, and the Daily Wire picked it up because it fits their narrative.

 

And they picked it up from the letter from Liberty Counsel, which is available on the web. 

Could the Liberty Counsel letter be full of fabrications ? Possibly. It's more likely that the teachers and the school have different perspectives on the same situation. 

But the story isn't fake, as in - we, the news source, made this up because we hate trans people. 

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1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

This right here is exactly what this thread was about.

But it was framed by false reporting from a website that seeks to inflame opinions with the deliberate twisting of the truth and this case was no different than their standard operating practice. Again, if you have the time, examine the disparity in their report and the local news version.

The Daily Note seeks to manipulate people via anger by spreading false narratives. That comes at a cost to the rights of our most vulnerable.

I hope you see that.

Bill

 

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11 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

This right here is exactly what this thread was about.

 

Exactly, Michelle. 

Ironically, on this topic, we're not actually allowed to discuss how to accomodate everyone fairly.

Want to discuss fairness for girls and women ? Bigot. Fairness for teachers ? Bigot. Fairness towards boys ? Bigot. 

 

 

 

Edited by StellaM
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18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Exactly, Michelle. 

Ironically, on this topic, we're not actually allowed to discuss how to accomodate everyone fairly.

Want to discuss fairness for girls and women ? Bigot. Fairness for teachers ? Bigot. Fairness towards boys ? Bigot. 

 

 

 

Yes.

The physical health & safety of all children is what is at stake when the response to monitoring locker rooms is: "Ewww, creepy."

 

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20 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Are you suggesting that the student went into the boys’ locker room for some other purpose than to change clothes, and that the teacher objected to supervising just in case a student with no intention of changing in that locker room inexplicably did so?  That the school put this policy in place and tried to enforce compliance from their employees without a transgender student wanting them to?  And that the complaints the school board is fielding are about the student walking into the locker room where the boys were changing and then walking out again?  (Frankly, if I were the parent of one of those boys, this scenario would be rather weirder than a transgender student wanting to use the locker room with all the guys.)


In every school I've been associated with, the locker room is where kids go to change shoes before gym, or to store their backpacks, or to remove the sweater they might be wearing over the Tshirt.   In some of them, the only way to access the gym for a student is to walk through a locker room.   This is middle school, and in middle schools around me there are 5 minutes for passing, so almost no one is changing entirely.  So, yes.  Students go into locker rooms without the intention of changing all the time.  I think that if the trans student in this story had actually gotten naked in the locker room, or actually showered, then the people complaining about it would have mentioned.  So, my guess, is that this middle school functions like other middle schools I have experience with, and it is not uncommon for kids to be in the locker room and not change.  

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I'm so glad I don't have to teach a room full of sweaty - unwashed, unchanged, even - pre teens. 

Or even worse - the unwashed sweaty smell disguised by perfumed deodorants. Yuck.

 

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

I'm so glad I don't have to teach a room full of sweaty - unwashed, unchanged, even - pre teens. 

Or even worse - the unwashed sweaty smell disguised by perfumed deodorants. Yuck.

 

 

In the announcements for my dd13's school last week, there was a bit reminding students that it was a scent free school, and there was to be no spraying perfume in the changing areas.  I thought that was a little hard going.

 

As it happens, it's the same middle school I went to, and although there are showers, no one uses them.  People do strip down to underwear at time though, even if they prefer to avoid i.

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2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

In the announcements for my dd13's school last week, there was a bit reminding students that it was a scent free school, and there was to be no spraying perfume in the changing areas.  I thought that was a little hard going.

 

As it happens, it's the same middle school I went to, and although there are showers, no one uses them.  People do strip down to underwear at time though, even if they prefer to avoid i.

 

I do understand kids not wanting to shower, but at least change back into clothes you didn't just sweat in. I still remember the grossness of aerosol perfumed deodorant over the smell of B.O. Gross. At least wash under your arms!

It's probably not so bad in places that don't get hot and humid.

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39 minutes ago, Daria said:


In every school I've been associated with, the locker room is where kids go to change shoes before gym, or to store their backpacks, or to remove the sweater they might be wearing over the Tshirt.   In some of them, the only way to access the gym for a student is to walk through a locker room.   This is middle school, and in middle schools around me there are 5 minutes for passing, so almost no one is changing entirely.  So, yes.  Students go into locker rooms without the intention of changing all the time.  I think that if the trans student in this story had actually gotten naked in the locker room, or actually showered, then the people complaining about it would have mentioned.  So, my guess, is that this middle school functions like other middle schools I have experience with, and it is not uncommon for kids to be in the locker room and not change.  

 

Huh, interesting.  I’ve never heard of a school that used locker rooms but the students didn’t change.

However, it is apparent that was not normal practice at this school, or the boys wouldn’t have been undressed when the transgender student walked in for the first time.

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33 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Huh, interesting.  I’ve never heard of a school that used locker rooms but the students didn’t change.

However, it is apparent that was not normal practice at this school, or the boys wouldn’t have been undressed when the transgender student walked in for the first time.

 

This only according to the Daily Wire, which has been shown to you to be a source of disinformation.

BTW the Liberty Counsel is on the Southern Poverty Law Centers list of hate organizations.

Bill

Edited by Spy Car

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Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

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SPLC lost some credibility with me when they characterised  Muslim Majiid Nawaz and Quilliam as 'anti Muslim extremists', and then had to pay out 3.4 million for doing so. 

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Just now, StellaM said:

SPLC lost some credibility with me when they characterised  Muslim Majiid Nawaz and Quilliam as 'anti Muslim extremists', and then had to pay out 3.4 million for doing so. 

They have an otherwise excellent track record.

Bill

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2 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

 

That's a clear case of conflicting interests, and I can think of a dozen ways the conflict could have been solved so that ALL students could change safely, privately and with dignity, without the girls giving up their change room.

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2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

That's a clear case of conflicting interests, and I can think of a dozen ways the conflict could have been solved so that ALL students could change safely, privately and with dignity, without the girls giving up their change room.

Yes, they could have. But the ps chose not to. Fortunately, the girl who left had enough credits by finishing an English and a SS that she was still able to graduate. The ps would not allow the 2 girls (small class--weightlifting) to use the teachers' bathroom and the other student refused to. It was very traumatic for the girl who left. 

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7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

They have an otherwise excellent track record.

Bill

 

In the interests of being fair, I do agree with you on this, although the error that led them to categorise Quilliam as anti-Muslim (ie being unable to distinguish critique from hate) has not been explicitly disavowed, although one would think the financial hit would be enough to make them think a little harder in future.

Liberty Counsel is not an organisation that aligns with my politics. Its letter is, however, the primary source for the story, and is available to read. 

I wish the left would start standing up for freedom of speech, expression and genuinely held beliefs (for all). I would prefer not to have to find the only support for these values coming from conservatives.

Edited by StellaM
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1 minute ago, Margaret in CO said:

Yes, they could have. But the ps chose not to. Fortunately, the girl who left had enough credits by finishing an English and a SS that she was still able to graduate. The ps would not allow the 2 girls (small class--weightlifting) to use the teachers' bathroom and the other student refused to. It was very traumatic for the girl who left. 

 

That's just silly. 

The girls should have been allowed the third space. 

Glad the girl who left could still graduate.

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11 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Bill, you are not the board police. 

Everyone else, don't feed the troll.

Bill, if you want to object to this post, take it up with Susan privately.

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?

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2 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I’ve heard so many claims of “fake news” fly from people on both sides, I’ve become pretty skeptical of such claims unless there is some example of the source giving incorrect information or leaving out relevant information, and not printing a retraction when informed of their error.  If writing a story with preconceived biases makes a news story “fake”, I don’t think I’ve ever read a “real” news story.  Just because I think a journalist is wrong in how they interpret and present a story doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

The "fake" news I've seen has been posted on facebook.  Most recent example? I have a lot of friends and family in Florida. This week one of them posted an "affadavit" of "a Broward County Election Board employee"  that claimed to witness fake votes being generated. The problem was that no such evidence was presented in any of the courts involved.  No evidence of voter fraud whatsoever.

The most frequent fake news I see on Facebook has been about vaccines.  The most recent example was a story of 34 teenage girls who died after the HPV shot.  I fell for it and clicked through.  One of them died in a car crash, she was the passenger.  Another died two years later of pneumonia.  Sigh.

 

4 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

 

How did they end up resolving it long term? Is it still to be handled on a case by case basis or is the policy a non-transitioning person can go into the opposite gender locker room despite not wanting to transition?  I agree the main problem from my perspective is when a person claims to be transgender but isn't transitioning. That leads to so many potential issues. If a person transitions at a young age and appears to be the gender they are internally I imagine most of the kids would have much less issue with that.

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Just now, Dotwithaperiod said:

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?

 

Perhaps the offensive posts have been deleted If you read through the whole thread earlier it was because he ignored the second article posted on the topic that was from a regular local newspaper and kept personally attacking the OP and everyone who didn't express hatred of the daily wire so as to dismiss the thread entirely.  He insisted on ignoring the topic and continuing to attack women, and went on to mansplain feminism to a group of women... it was obnoxious at best and against board rules.

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1 hour ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?

 

He has a history of using a gendered slur for women who don't agree with him, and has been removed from at least one social group on this basis.

He aggressively attacks women who don't agree with him - on any topic.

I don't think Bill is a troll; I think he doesn't know how to talk to women who disagree with him. Or he thinks women who disagree with him are unpeople, who don't deserve civility.

 

Edited by StellaM
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7 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?


That is not why I called him a troll.
I'm not going to provide an annotated bibliography, particularly not one that includes the posts that have been deleted.

If you have a problem with the way I have handled this story that you have only read part of, feel free to take it up with Susan privately.  

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23 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

 

I'm confused by what you mean when you say he was "not transitioning".

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4 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Perhaps the offensive posts have been deleted If you read through the whole thread earlier it was because he ignored the second article posted on the topic that was from a regular local newspaper and kept personally attacking the OP and everyone who didn't express hatred of the daily wire so as to dismiss the thread entirely.  He insisted on ignoring the topic and continuing to attack women, and went on to mansplain feminism to a group of women... it was obnoxious at best and against board rules.

The second article showed that the first one, that was in the OP, was very slanted (to the point of being utterly dishonest).

Did you read them?

Bill

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11 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

The "fake" news I've seen has been posted on facebook.  Most recent example? I have a lot of friends and family in Florida. This week one of them posted an "affadavit" of "a Broward County Election Board employee"  that claimed to witness fake votes being generated. The problem was that no such evidence was presented in any of the courts involved.  No evidence of voter fraud whatsoever.

The most frequent fake news I see on Facebook has been about vaccines.  The most recent example was a story of 34 teenage girls who died after the HPV shot.  I fell for it and clicked through.  One of them died in a car crash, she was the passenger.  Another died two years later of pneumonia.  Sigh.

 

 

How did they end up resolving it long term? Is it still to be handled on a case by case basis or is the policy a non-transitioning person can go into the opposite gender locker room despite not wanting to transition?  I agree the main problem from my perspective is when a person claims to be transgender but isn't transitioning. That leads to so many potential issues. If a person transitions at a young age and appears to be the gender they are internally I imagine most of the kids would have much less issue with that.

 

Middle school children can't 'appear to be the gender they are internally' in a changing room context.

Thank goodness. Nobody, I am sure, thinks children should be able to access opposite sex hormones or surgery. 

Edited by StellaM
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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Middle school children can't 'appear to be the gender they are internally' in a changing room context.

Thank goodness. Nobody, I am sure, thinks children should be able to access opposite sex hormones or surgery.

 

Of course they can.  Middle school generally starts at age 11 or 12, well past the onset of puberty in most kids.  And many people DO put transgender children that age on hormone blockers at least, if not the hormones of the opposite gender.  There is an entire reality show called I am Jazz about a transgender girl that started filming in middle school.  In the first season she has been on hormone blockers and absolutely appears to be female. Most of her friends forget she wasn't born male.  I haven't continued to watch the show, but I understand she was going to start surgery.

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22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

They have an otherwise excellent track record.

Bill

 

Have they?  

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/28/morris-dees-splc-trump-southern-poverty-law-center-215312

"The SPLC has included Senator Rand Paul and Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson among the neo-Nazis and white supremacists on its extremists lists (Paul for suggesting private businesses shouldn’t have to adhere to the Civil Rights Act and criticizing the Fair Housing Act; Carson for his views opposing same-sex marriage). The group did back down after it put Carson on the 2014 “extremist watch” list—removing his name and issuing an apology that earned a lot of coverage in the conservative media. “This week, as we’ve come under intense criticism for doing so, we’ve reviewed our profile and have concluded that it did not meet our standards,” the organization’s statement said, “so we have taken it down and apologize to Dr. Carson for having posted it.”"

"William Jacobson, a law professor at Cornell and critic of the SPLC, says the group has wrapped itself in the mantle of the civil rights struggle to engage in partisan political crusading. “Time and again, I see the SPLC using the reputation it gained decades ago fighting the Klan as a tool to bludgeon mainstream politically conservative opponents,” he says. “For groups that do not threaten violence, the use of SPLC ‘hate group’ or ‘extremist’ designations frequently are exploited as an excuse to silence speech and speakers,” Jacobson adds. “It taints not only the group or person, but others who associate with them.”

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1 minute ago, Katy said:

 

Of course they can.  Middle school generally starts at age 11 or 12, well past the onset of puberty in most kids.  And many people DO put transgender children that age on hormone blockers at least, if not the hormones of the opposite gender.  There is an entire reality show called I am Jazz about a transgender girl that started filming in middle school.  In the first season she has been on hormone blockers and absolutely appears to be female. Most of her friends forget she wasn't born male.  I haven't continued to watch the show, but I understand she was going to start surgery.

 

I wouldn't use Jazz as evidence of anything; imo she's been incredibly abused by having her experience made so very public, and by the decisions her parents have taken on her behalf. I feel really sorry for Jazz.

Middle school goes up to 7th grade, right ? Most 7th grade girls look pretty female, and are losing the androgyny of their childhood. Many have already developed. A 7th grade male is going to look like a 7th grade male, when changing, and not like the average 7th grade girl.

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Just now, StellaM said:

 

I wouldn't use Jazz as evidence of anything; imo she's been incredibly abused by having her experience made so very public, and by the decisions her parents have taken on her behalf. I feel really sorry for Jazz.

Middle school goes up to 7th grade, right ? Most 7th grade girls look pretty female, and are losing the androgyny of their childhood. Many have already developed. A 7th grade male is going to look like a 7th grade male, when changing, and not like the average 7th grade girl.

 

No, middle school is generally either grades 6-8 or grades 7-9, depending on the school district and if they break down elementary schools into primary and intermediate grades or grades pk-5.

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16 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The second article showed that the first one, that was in the OP, was very slanted (to the point of being utterly dishonest).

Did you read them?

Bill

 

Neither one had any facts that contradicted the other, at least not that I noticed.

The commentary in the two articles was obviously slanted very differently.

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4 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

No, middle school is generally either grades 6-8 or grades 7-9, depending on the school district and if they break down elementary schools into primary and intermediate grades or grades pk-5.

 

If middle school can go up to 8th grade, most girls  will have begun to develop. 

I take your point that children whose parents who mistakenly use blockers to 'pause and think' will not develop as usual, and therefore may have a flat, 'boyish' chest.

Again, though,we'd have to ask the boys if that makes a dfference to them. I assume some might not be bothered, and some might be. What options do we offer for the boys who want their privacy from females ?

And what options do we offer teachers who are asked to supervise students of the opposite sex who may be in a state or partial or full undress ?

Edited by StellaM
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46 minutes ago, Daria said:

 

I'm confused by what you mean when you say he was "not transitioning".

He did not wear women's clothing; he just said one day, "I'm a girl and I want in the girls' locker room." He had a heavy beard and looked like a male. 

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2 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

He did not wear women's clothing; he just said one day, "I'm a girl and I want in the girls' locker room." He had a heavy beard and looked like a male. 

 

Yeah, increasingly a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and attempts at a meaningful transition to living as the opposite sex is not required to be transgender and to receive protections under the law designed to protect transsexual people. 

No wonder that poor girl was traumatised. The school was abusive not to allow her to change elsewhere. 

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29 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Neither one had any facts that contradicted the other, at least not that I noticed.

The commentary in the two articles was obviously slanted very differently.

One was slanted by a notoriously dishonest source. 

The Daily Wire is an extremist website with a documented history of lying.

We gave you sources that flesh this out.

I thought you were taking it to heart,

Bill

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56 minutes ago, Katy said:

How did they end up resolving it long term? Is it still to be handled on a case by case basis or is the policy a non-transitioning person can go into the opposite gender locker room despite not wanting to transition?  I agree the main problem from my perspective is when a person claims to be transgender but isn't transitioning. That leads to so many potential issues. If a person transitions at a young age and appears to be the gender they are internally I imagine most of the kids would have much less issue with that.

I don't know. I declined to be the high school costume mistress this year as I didn't want to get into it. I believe the student has graduated now. 

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, increasingly a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and attempts at a meaningful transition to living as the opposite sex is not required to be transgender and to receive protections under the law designed to protect transsexual people. 

So first it was "librodudes in lavender" and not it is "gender dysphoria."

Members would be well advised to read up on TERFs aka trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism. Very uncool.

Bill

 

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7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, increasingly a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and attempts at a meaningful transition to living as the opposite sex is not required to be transgender and to receive protections under the law designed to protect transsexual people. 

Yes, but what about the protection for the girls? 

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40 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Yes, but what about the protection for the girls? 

 

The girls need re-education, not protections! Because the girls are 'cis' and therefore privileged in comparison to the male bodied girl. It's akin to getting over being so racist. 

They need to work harder at understanding that just because a person is a male, and looks like a male in every way, that doesn't make him a male. Girls and women come in all shapes and sizes, including girls and women born with, and in possession of, a p*nis.

That's the dogma. I'm not a believer.

 

Edited by StellaM
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37 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

One was slanted by a notoriously dishonest source. 

The Daily Wire is an extremist website with a documented history of lying.

We gave you sources that flesh this out.

I thought you were taking it to heart,

Bill

 

I'm still working my way through the Snopes articles and the sources.  I haven't forgotten, just want to be thorough.

Edited by Michelle Conde

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1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:


That is not why I called him a troll.
I'm not going to provide an annotated bibliography, particularly not one that includes the posts that have been deleted.

If you have a problem with the way I have handled this story that you have only read part of, feel free to take it up with Susan privately.  

I asked politely, Rosie. I read the thread, unless you’re saying I wasn’t able to see deleted stuff.Really, you seem offended, but I just wanted to know why you called him a troll. I have no need to take it up with Susan, as I was not  at all upset with you.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

He has a history of using a gendered slur for women who don't agree with him, and has been removed from at least one social group on this basis.

He aggressively attacks women who don't agree with him - on any topic.

I don't think Bill is a troll; I think he doesn't know how to talk to women who disagree with him. Or he thinks women who disagree with him are unpeople, who don't deserve civility.

 

Thank you, Stella. That’s what I was trying to figure out. Surprised me when the mod was so abrupt with my question, they normally don’t seem personally offended.

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3 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Thank you, Stella. That’s what I was trying to figure out. Surprised me when the mod was so abrupt with my question, they normally don’t seem personally offended.

Long history. 

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20 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I asked politely, Rosie. I read the thread, unless you’re saying I wasn’t able to see deleted stuff.Really, you seem offended, but I just wanted to know why you called him a troll. I have no need to take it up with Susan, as I was not  at all upset with you.  

 

 

 

I know you asked politely, but it is against board rules to use the board to discuss the board, so any problems people have with moderation should be dealt with in pm. This is the case no matter what levels of politeness are being used.

In any case, your questions have already been answered by myself and others.

-----
Everyone: My daughter is here on her fortnightly visit. I can't sit around all day moderating people who've already been told to behave, so if I see anything else that shouldn't be there, I'm going to lock the thread until another moderator has time to deal with it.

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25 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Thank you, Stella. That’s what I was trying to figure out. Surprised me when the mod was so abrupt with my question, they normally don’t seem personally offended.

Sadies's response consists of flat out lies. Not surprising from someone who calls trans folks "librodudes in lavender."

Appalling.

Bill

 

Edited by Spy Car

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