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Michelle Conde

Male Teacher Punished for Refusing to Watch

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3 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Actually you haven’t.  You have made no comment on either article, from either source.

I like you, Bill.  I’ve enjoyed your posts a lot over the years.  I know you have strong opinions, but I’m not sure why you feel the need to be rude instead of just sharing them.

I don't respond to notoriously fake-news sources like the Daily Wire. Good grief.

Transgender students derive to have their humanity respected and to be protected from bullying by school officials.

Please don't pollute this forum with this garbage.

Bill

 

 

 

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But what about this story?  There haven’t been any instances of transgender students being bullied or disrespected.  What about the article on the local news source?  You don’t have to actually read the Daily Wire article to respond to the topic.

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We only had male PE teachers.  I suppose it is possible they went in the male changing rooms but they certainly weren't in the women's ones.  At least one did look up girls skirts and down their tops though.

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9 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

But what about this story?  There haven’t been any instances of transgender students being bullied or disrespected.  What about the article on the local news source?  You don’t have to actually read the Daily Wire article to respond to the topic.

 

Perhaps the idea is that refusing to watch the student get undressed is a form of bullying?  

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1 hour ago, texasmom33 said:

Thank heavens someone came to remind us of what's an acceptable source to read!  Without that, we women might have gone off and done some thinkin' on our own. ? 

 

Image result for behold a man has arrived to share his manly views

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We had a very creepy woman gym teacher who did watch us--very intently, I might add. So no one actually showered, but wet the corner of our towels and wiped our armpits down, with just the top of the gymsuit pulled down. We all wore bras because of her. 

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It just occurred to me that showers in schools for Pe must be a us thing?  Or did I go the one school in Aus that didn’t have them.  Sport just happened last thing in the day and everyone went home and showered there.

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2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It just occurred to me that showers in schools for Pe must be a us thing?  Or did I go the one school in Aus that didn’t have them.  Sport just happened last thing in the day and everyone went home and showered there.

Our schools around here have them, but I don't believe they are commonly used anymore.  I know one school we used for basketball practice used their shower area for storage.  From talking to other parents the only times there showers are usually used would be when the basketball teams have early morning practices and the kids don't want to smell bad all day. 

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1 hour ago, texasmom33 said:

Thank heavens someone came to remind us of what's an acceptable source to read!  Without that, we women might have gone off and done some thinkin' on our own. ? 

Read fake news from the Daily Wire if that's your will. But I thought we were on the "Well Trained Mind" website and not on the Mindless Consumers of BS website.

The sexism in your comments is reprehensible.

Bill

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7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It just occurred to me that showers in schools for Pe must be a us thing?  Or did I go the one school in Aus that didn’t have them.  Sport just happened last thing in the day and everyone went home and showered there.

 

Nope, we had showers to use after PE. 

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Just now, Spy Car said:

Read fake news from the Daily Wire if that's your will. But I thought we were on the "Well Trained Mind" website and not on the Mindless Consumers of BS website.

The sexism in your comments is reprehensible.

Bill

Well I'm not the one on this thread calling a bunch of women mindless consumers of garbage. If that makes me a sexist for thinking women are smart enough to make their own decisions over what media they chose to consume without a man handing down his edict, then I guess I'm proud to be a sexist in your eyes.

If someone could refer me to whichever misogyny handbook rule I broke it would be much appreciated! 

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21 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Image result for behold a man has arrived to share his manly views

Hey, the Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist who always attacks the human rights of transgender people has shown up to engage in gender-based personal attacks again.

What a surprise.

Bill

'

'

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Just now, texasmom33 said:

Well I'm not the one on this thread calling a bunch of women mindless consumers of garbage. If that makes me a sexist for thinking women are smart enough to make their own decisions over what media they chose to consume without a man handing down his edict, then I guess I'm proud to be a sexist in your eyes.

If someone could refer me to whichever misogyny handbook rule I broke it would be much appreciated! 

Who said women? You. Not me. It is reprehensible. 

The Daily Wire is a fake-news source. Check it out.

Good grief.

Bill

 

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Ah yes, it looks as if I'm guilty of breaking rules 3, 7, and 9. 

Quote

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

@LMD, can you help me out here? Did I miss any? 

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Reverse sexism isn't a thing, women as a class don't oppress men as a class historically or institutionally, so don't stress texasmom. It's like accusing someone of reverse racism. Not the most intellectual of insults.

Eta - maybe 12 too? Poor victims of reverse sexism.

 

Edited by LMD
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2 hours ago, Daria said:


We don't know that the kid ever undressed in the locker room, or wanted to undress in the locker room.  I'm assuming from the "students may take showers" that this student never did take a shower.   So, it's quite possible that the teacher was blowing something out of proportion. 

I assume that in going to the media, the teacher wanted something.  Their job reinstated?  The policy changed?  Attention?  Now, maybe it was a reasonable request, but that's hard to say when he's being represented by an organization that has it's own agenda, as evidenced by the fact that the organization, Liberty Counsel, that seems to be speaking on his behalf, is also advocating for changes in how the district uses pronouns, and stopping the gay straight alliance.  

 

I read the article and I did not read anything about stopping the gay straight alliance, but rather that the mother wanted a policy of permission slips for all clubs. In my opinion the way you put it in your post was misleading and only increases the division about this subject. I, personally, am sick and tired of the inflammatory rhetoric from both sides of all these arguments, and would love to be able to read just the bare bones facts as much as possible without all the spin.

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20 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Well I'm not the one on this thread calling a bunch of women mindless consumers of garbage. If that makes me a sexist for thinking women are smart enough to make their own decisions over what media they chose to consume without a man handing down his edict, then I guess I'm proud to be a sexist in your eyes.

If someone could refer me to whichever misogyny handbook rule I broke it would be much appreciated! 

 

Don't waste your time. 

Bill never admits he is wrong for ordering women about.

The ignore list is handy.

Edited by StellaM
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3 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Go gaslight somebody else Bill. It's not working. 

Gaslight? Do you know what that word means?

The Daily Wire is a garbage outfit. Completely disreputable. That's the truth.

It is a shame that you are proud to proclaim yourself a sexist. I thought better of you.

Bill

 

 

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Who would have thought a thread on PE and bathrooms would be so entertaining? I almost did not click on it.

My two cents: I think the teacher was trying to protect himself from potential charges; I don't see any way this could be misconstrued as bullying or discrimination but when the rules of logic are discarded as is frequently the case these days, one is free to interpret anything any way one likes. 

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17 minutes ago, LMD said:

Reverse sexism isn't a thing, women as a class don't oppress men as a class historically or institutionally, so don't stress texasmom. It's like accusing someone of reverse racism. Not the most intellectual of insults.

Eta - maybe 12 too? Poor victims of reverse sexism.

 

Oh my- four rules. Isn't strike 4 when they send me off to the re-education camp? ?

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6 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Oh my- four rules. Isn't strike 4 when they send me off to the re-education camp? ?

 

The gulag...

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

The gulag...

You are the only one who doesn't support basic human rights.

Bill

 

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28 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Ah yes, it looks as if I'm guilty of breaking rules 3, 7, and 9. 

@LMD, can you help me out here? Did I miss any? 

 

You figured out gaslighting. Congratulations.

Bill

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2 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Please carry on my legacy as I walk down this dark path to Stepford or wherever the gulag is.......??

I think trans people should be treated with respect. Don't you?

Bill

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1 hour ago, kiwik said:

We only had male PE teachers.  I suppose it is possible they went in the male changing rooms but they certainly weren't in the women's ones.  At least one did look up girls skirts and down their tops though.

I had male teachers a few times, but mostly female.  but that was in the day when our classes were girls PE and boys PE.  but I was in school when that changed to a combined class (when we started having men.) - but the women PE teachers were in the girls locker room to make sure there was no untoward behavior going on.

 

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It just occurred to me that showers in schools for Pe must be a us thing?  Or did I go the one school in Aus that didn’t have them.  Sport just happened last thing in the day and everyone went home and showered there.

PE can happen any time during the school day - including first period.   no one took showers.   it used to be required - but that got dropped because of pushback and how uncomfortable it makes kids to be naked in front of 40 other kids of the same gender.   it's hard on middle school girls.  some have a chesh - and some don't.  and kids can be plain mean.

 

38 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

Who would have thought a thread on PE and bathrooms would be so entertaining? I almost did not click on it.

My two cents: I think the teacher was trying to protect himself from potential charges; I don't see any way this could be misconstrued as bullying or discrimination but when the rules of logic are discarded as is frequently the case these days, one is free to interpret anything any way one likes. 

and we don't even need kilts or cupcakes!

26 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Please carry on my legacy as I walk down this dark path to Stepford or wherever the gulag is.......??

not all bad - it's smoke free.  (we're supposed to be getting california smoke soon. . . again.)

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Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

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2 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

Right. It is because you are trolling the forum with right-wing fake news. That sucks. Bigotry sucks.

Please stop.

Bill

 

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5 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

Oh don't worry, Bill has form.

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I am not trolling.  I honestly wanted to have a conversation and hear people’s thoughts on this current event.  You were provided a different news source where you could have read about the issue if you were here to engage in discussion rather than to attack people.  I have asked anyone with any knowledge of this source providing incorrect information to let me know, which you have chosen not to do.  

On what basis do you label me a bigot?  Solely because I read an article on a website you disapprove of?  Seriously, man, you come here with no intention of actually finding out what we’re talking about or engaging in the conversation, start throwing around names, and say that I’m trolling?  

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9 minutes ago, LMD said:

Oh don't worry, Bill has form.

 

It is such a shame when someone enters a thread with the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the OP and the other participants in the thread and telling them what they should and should not be posting, rather than actually joining the conversation and treating others with respect. It does nothing but derail the thread by making people angry, although I suspect that was his intent when he started posting in this thread.

Frankly, I think Michelle has been very gracious to everyone who posted here, yet she has now been called both a troll and a bigot. I think that’s terrible, and entirely uncalled-for.

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If mansplaining isn't working, try "disappointed daddy." If that fails, combine the two. If that doesn't work, go straight on to abuse.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

I am not trolling.  I honestly wanted to have a conversation and hear people’s thoughts on this current event.  You were provided a different news source where you could have read about the issue if you were here to engage in discussion rather than to attack people.  I have asked anyone with any knowledge of this source providing incorrect information to let me know, which you have chosen not to do.  

On what basis do you label me a bigot?  Solely because I read an article on a website you disapprove of?  Seriously, man, you come here with no intention of actually finding out what we’re talking about or engaging in the conversation, start throwing around names, and say that I’m trolling?  

 

No one else here thinks you are a troll, Michelle. ?

Rather than responding to the insults and accusations, you might want to consider clicking on the Report Post button in the upper right hand corner of each post, as I believe name-calling and personal insults are against forum rules.

I hope we can get back to discussing your original topic, as I have found this thread very interesting, and all of us (except for one) were having a nice, civil conversation even when people disagreed with each other. I hope that can continue.

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I’d be interested to hear how parents here would want a situation like this handled if it were affecting their children (either imagining your kid in the position of the transgender child or the other boys using the locker room).  

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I know that I would not be at all okay with a man watching my biologically-female child undress.  I also wouldn’t feel very comfortable with that child changing with pubescent boys, supervised or unsupervised.  So I guess that leaves the girls’ locker room or a private space to change.  I would advocate for a private space if that was what my child felt more comfortable with.  Maybe not a perfect solution, but it seems the safest while trying to be accommodating.  

If it were my son who’d been surprised in the locker room with this, I would be pretty upset.  It seems like if the school administration feels it would infringe on the transgender child’s rights to dictate which locker room they could use, they should at least let the boys know, so that if they were uncomfortable being undressed in front of a person of the opposite biological sex they at least had the option to use a bathroom stall to change.  No one should be forced to be in a situation where they are undressed in front of anyone they don’t want to be, ever, in my opinion.  

Edited by Michelle Conde
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5 hours ago, Daria said:

 

My kid was a 3 sport athlete in high school.  In that time, he took one shower at school, on a day when there was a dance after practice.  I asked him once why he didn't shower more often, and he said that while it was conceivably allowed, no one did it.  

The kicker on his high school football team was a cisgender girl.  She suited up in the boys locker room.  It was never an issue, the boys figured it out.  

I have trouble believing that the young man in this question planned to take a shower.  "May" means it's conceivably possible.  It doesn't mean that it's something that actually would have happened.

In talking to friends, neighbors, and relatives this definitely seems to be the norm now. Most students never use the school showers and many said they even go into bathroom stalls to change in private. This is completely different from when I went to school. We were required to shower after middle school PE and there was a monitor present and most chose to shower after high school sports and PE, despite there being only open group showers and changing areas. 

Edited by Frances

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Wait a second.  

Why would any teacher be expected to watch the school locker rooms?  

I don’t recall the gym teachers, male or female, ever coming in to the locker room unless it was before or after everyone was changed.  

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1 hour ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

the henry higgins defense.  

     The question is not whether I've treated you rudely but whether you've ever heard me treat anyone else better.

though if we were to believe his claims of his own behavior, he treats everyone with respect. . . . .

good reason to go with actions rather than claims.

 

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When I was in Jr High school, showers were required every day, and teachers / gym aides did watch to confirm you actually showered.  The only exception was if you used the "private showers" set aside for girls on their periods.

I think a trans person in the bathroom that does not match his/her sex should shower and dress in private.  To Cat's questions, if it were my kids, I would not want them on either side of that situation.

And supervision of the room in general would be important to prevent violence or other harm.  When I was in school, fights in the locker rooms were common, just because apparently gym class brings out the worst in some people.  We all know that a trans person is more likely than average to be picked on.  Leaving the person alone with a bunch of pubescent boys would be extremely irresponsible IMO.

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How would I want it handled if it was my trans child  ? I would want their safety, privacy and dignity protected, and so I would ask for a safe, clean third space for changing to be made available to them. If it was very important to me that my child could change in the boys change room, I guess I would fundraise for individual lockable shower cubicles.

If I had a boy in the changeroom ? I'd like a heads up from the school that change rooms are now mixed sex so I could discuss with my son his feelings, if he has any, about mixed sex change rooms.

As a parent, I would disagree with the teachers refusal to change pronouns.

I understand and respect the position against compelled speech, but  I wouldn't want a teacher to make a student  feel uncomfortable. As a parent, I'd feel a workable compromise would be for the teacher to use the child's new name, and avoid she/her pronouns, using 'they' where needed. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

I know that I would not be at all okay with a man watching my biologically-female child undress.  I also wouldn’t feel very comfortable with that child changing with pubescent boys, supervised or unsupervised.  So I guess that leaves the girls’ locker room or a private space to change.  I would advocate for a private space if that was what my child felt more comfortable with.  Maybe not a perfect solution, but it seems the safest while trying to be accommodating.  

If it were my son who’d been surprised in the locker room with this, I would be pretty upset.  It seems like if the school administration feels it would infringe on the transgender child’s rights to dictate which locker room they could use, they should at least let the boys know, so that if they were uncomfortable being undressed in front of a person of the opposite biological sex they at least had the option to use a bathroom stall to change.  No one should be forced to be in a situation where they are undressed in front of anyone they don’t want to be, ever, in my opinion.  

I would not be ok with an adult male watching my biological male child undress either.  Or for that matter, all the other biological boys in the dressing room watching him undress or shower.  I think as a parent I would be way more concerned with men and boys being around my potentially naked male child than a transgender student.  The latter sounds perhaps uncomfortable, but not dangerous to my child.  Pedophiles and boys with broomstick engaging in hazing rituals are a bigger potential problem on my radar as a parent of a young teen boy in a locker room.  If I was the parent of a transgender child, my concerns for their safety would be the same.

I would advocate for private spaces for ALL children to change, shower, and use the bathroom.  

Edited by CaliforniaDreamin
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1 minute ago, CaliforniaDreamin said:

I would not be ok with an adult male watching my biological male child undress either.  Or for that matter, all the other biological boys in the dressing room watching him undress or shower.  I think as a parent I would be way more concerned with men and boys being around my potentially naked male child than a transgender student.  The latter sounds perhaps uncomfortable, but not dangerous.  Pedophiles and boys with broomstick engaging in hazing rituals are a bigger potential problem on my radar as a parent of a young teen boy in a locker room.  

I would advocate for private spaces for ALL children to change, shower, and use the bathroom.  

I agree. I don't think keeping locker rooms single sex makes them any safer for anyone, but especially not teens and preteens, and they are outdated. How many generations of kids need to have stories of scary or humiliating experiences in locker rooms before we reevaluate the custom?  

In this day of #metoo, anti bullying campaigns, and so many crimes against children by adults of both sexes, why would we think female/female or male/male assault and harassment aren't things to be concerned about and it's just fine to have adults in power supervising groups of undressed children? 

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Bill, you are not the board police. 

Everyone else, don't feed the troll.

Bill, if you want to object to this post, take it up with Susan privately.

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First, do we actually know if he is in trouble? The local article has the school spokesperson stating they have absolutely not threatened their jobs so I'm confused on what's stated in their OP's original linked source.

Second, often when these cases go further legally it comes out the locker rooms, like most I'm familiar with lately, have actual lockable bathrooms within the locker rooms that the transgender student/s or any other student using the locker room may use if they want. I don't know any transgender student who wishes to change in front of anyone, of either sex, due to their body issues. They usually just want access to the rooms with which they identify.

At my son's school he was originally told he had use the ONE single sex bathroom that was located in the nurse's office. His high school is huge and we pointed out that just wasn't going to work. He always used the boys rooms and had zero issues. The locker rooms for PE here all had at least one lockable bathroom and no teachers were watching any students change. They usually hovered at the door to listen for any trouble and to tell students to hurry up. 

I also don't agree that middle and high school students should need permission slips to join a GSA club. Many kids can't tell their parents about their LGBT status and I don't see it helping anything to take away maybe the one place they feel accepted. I could see telling them to stop referring them out but without more information I don't know what that really looks like at this school. 

I also am 100% against the teachers in the OP thinking they should have a right to out a transgender student to other students and parents. WTH? Not okay and the school is right to enforce a police not to disclose personal information about students. I know many think they can always tell but with people transitioning earlier now I don't believe it's going to always be that way and it would be so wrong to suddenly out someone who's been living that way since they were single digits. Heck, my son went through puberty and didn't start hormones until he was 17 but within a year he had developed facial hair, an adam's apple, and his voice was most definitely male sounding. We're only two years in now and it's a remarkable difference. I can't imagine  what he might look like if he had started the process as early as some are now. 

 

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5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

Wait a second.  

Why would any teacher be expected to watch the school locker rooms?  

I don’t recall the gym teachers, male or female, ever coming in to the locker room unless it was before or after everyone was changed.  

Seriously.  I was in middle school in the mid 90s and there was no showering (shower stalls sometimes used for changing) and no adult supervision.  The school decided it was better for classmates to sexually abuse each other than risk an teacher staring too long at a kid in front of 40 other kids and word getting out.

Because obviously 10-12 year olds can’t assault anyone because they’re just kids.... *eyeroll*

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I am surprised that so many people remember NOT showering.    

The girls didn't shower at my school even on the rare days that we ran laps.  But, that was because the two female gym teachers would laugh and leer at anyone they saw undressed.   They had complete view of the showers.   So, everyone would huddle to change in the corners of the bays where they couldn't be seen.   The boys showered.  

I remember a boy in class starting to give a girl in class grief for stinking of B.O.    Another girl shushed him and said, "She has first period gym."   He shushed.  

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I am 100% against unsupervised locker rooms.  I was horribly bullied throughout school and I refused to even use the bathrooms because everyone knew that it was a free for all as soon as we were out of the teachers' view.  I avoided the locker rooms entirely by taking my required gym classes (and very few were required in my state) over the summer and then going home to shower.

As for what I would want to happen if the student in question was my son, I would like to ask him how he would be most comfortable.  I think there are a lot of options that would meet everyone's needs.  Maybe he could change in the nurse's office or another private bathroom.  Maybe they could deliberately schedule his PE for the last period of the day so he could shower at home.  Maybe his PE could be schedule before a study hour and he could hang back and shower after all the other students had cleared out.  Maybe he could do PE as an "independent study" and log physical activity hours at home and submit a few short papers about health and physical fitness.

Wendy

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