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S/O How do we change bigotry on an individual level


Ginevra
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Part of my post from the thread from which this is spun off:

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What I wonder is how “we” can give others space to grow towards tolerance in the world if the people we would like to influence are not seeking such knowledge and are not in a setting (like my college class) where it is likely to be encounteed. If you add in the probability that “Uncle Ted” listens to a couple limited news stations and radio shows which do not help him grow in toleremce, and he hangs out with his poker buddies who all hold similar beliefs, you have a recipe for stunted growth at least. It is one thing I do not know how to influence. I have numerous “Uncle Ted” kinds of people in my life and I don’t know how to help them see things a different way. 

I have had a life-long interest in the subject of why people do what they do and, more specifically, how people change their beliefs/conduct/world view. Conversion stories have always been very interesting to me, like the atheist who becomes a pastor or the felon who eventually opens a homeless shelter or the ex-KKK member who becomes a voice for racial healing. Or stories which contrast differing responses to a similar set of circumstances as in The Other Wes Moore

Despite my extensive reading on this subject and my “head knowledge” of it, I still find I am poorly equipped IRL, when Uncle Ted says something abjectly racist at the Thanksgiving table or when a dear friend surprises me by railing against a gender-neutral bathroom being installed at her son’s college. 

So I want to brainstorm and talk about this subject. How do we help others change? How do we stand against bigotry with love in a manner that makes it more, not less likely to plant a seed of change? 

Here is an article that may offer a jumping-off point; I apologize in advance for the political slant and political party discussions in the article. 

In this article, there is a point where the one person said something potentially inflammatory about gays, and used the term “fags.” The respondent, the article says, mildly responded, “I’m gay.” I wish it were possible to see a videotape, or at least a word-for-word transcript of how this played out. I think it is highly likely that I would be so hung up on “we don’t like fags” that I would forget my goal of trying to gently steer this person my way. And I’m straight! 

I think, for me, part of it is that I don’t like conflict and I hate when people are being made uncomfortable. And change probably doesn’t ever happen until someone gets uncomfortable. When I discover that someone I love has some view that I cannot support, it alarms me in an irrational way. My brain inside is freaking out, “OH NO!!! We don’t agreeeee!!” In some instances, I practically shut down. I can’t say anything. I might chuckle or turn away. I might shrug and mutter something about it not bothering me (as in the bathroom thing). I might say I don’t know enough about the issue to speak to it (which is true in some cases; this just happened in re: caravan of immigrants). 

I don’t want to be so ineffectual. But it’s hard to be different, especially when a subject surprises me. 

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I'd like to think about this a bit, but I think you are right - nothing happens when people get upset and hot under the collar.  But, OTOH, they do need to be able to deal with feeling uncomfortable in a discussion or interaction.  All the people involved in the interaction - not just the one who needs to change.  

It's an interesting combination.

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There are a couple of things that have influenced me in this regard over the years.

One is the old civil rights movement adage that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.  I take that as it being my responsibility to speak up against racism and bigotry, and never allow myself to be assumed to be complicit by implication.  This is easier for me than it probably is for a lot of other folks in this country because I live in an area where it tends to be considered rude, but it is still an issue at times.

Another is the Biblical injunction to 'speak the truth in love'.  I know how it feels to be so angry about something someone says that I can hardly talk about it, but I work on still speaking in love.  

Another is a phrase that really hit me hard in my teens in a book on Christian women that asked whether we could be loving toward those who are not, even if they are very wrong.  That has always stayed with me.

More recently as talk about privilege has become increasingly frequent I've taken note of the fact that specifically because I have a certain amount of privilege myself, I have the privilege of using it to stand up for what is right.  So I tend to speak out on others' behalf increasingly often, in situations where they need a witness or where it would be perceived as self-serving or suspect if they did so for themselves.  Sometimes it's just a matter of taking the time to watch in such a way that everyone knows I'm there, in a fight or a police situation.  Or driving back to the scene of a collision to get out of the car and offer my contact information as a witness.  

For me this has been a process, over the years; a process of learning to control my fury and channel it into productive speaking and action; a process of learning what is really helpful (being a witness or verbally disassociating myself from bigoted talk) and what is not (yelling at someone for using a pejorative term).  

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The approach I generally take when dealing with someone who is expressing racism, bigotry, etc. IRL is very simple. I don't know how effective it is, but simple is usually the best I can handle in the midst of what are generally at least a little bit heated conversations.

I try to emphasize that no group of people is a monolith. No entire group is "bad" or "good." Most are just . . . people. Just like the person I'm talking to. And it's not logical or fair to apply stereotypes to huge groups.

I often reference the Golden Rule/ethic of reciprocity. Directly, especially if the person is religious (the ones I interact with often are) and by giving an example. For example, I might pick out something about the person I'm speaking with (let's say it's a blond haired man) and ask them what they would think if a majority of their neighbors or co-workers or whoever thought that all blond haired men were lazy, liars, less intelligent, less capable, etc.

I don't know that I've ever changed anyone's mind, but I like to hope they go away thinking at least a little about my points. I doubt any one conversation changes anyone's mind. It's chinking away at things steadily over time that probably does it.

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THinking about this - one thing is I think it rarely helps if you decide you want to educate people.  No one likes that, it seems, and probably is, condescending.

I think what you usually need to do is have a real interaction with a person.  Ask them about their thoughts and experience.  Tell them about yours.  Listen to what they say, and try and see how they came to those conclusions.  If they are having trouble expressing themselves, try and help them say what they mean rather than using it to jump all over them.  Make sure you let them know where you agree or share or can relate to part of what they are saying.

If all that happens, you are on a different playing field altogether - you don't need a "technique" any more.  It's a relationship.  

In religious terms, I'd call this being Christ-centered - our obligation is to see Christ in others.  That changes how we respond to them.

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I've only seen this type of thing truly change with exposure and/or forced interaction - like military service, etc.  I heard my dad repeatedly rant in response to racism, and I'm sure that was a result of his service in Vietnam.  As a kid who grew up in the South in the 50's and 60's I'm pretty sure he didn't get taught tolerance at home.  OTOH, he chose his battles.  Sometimes he'd be silent in response, depending on how well he knew the person and how likely he was to interact with them in the future.

Education might also help. I've seen racist people criticize a particular race when the thing they were complaining about was actually the result of generational poverty, not race.  They attributed the problem to race, but that wasn't the problem at all. Race had nothing to do with it. If they were educated about sociology they might not make the same presumptions.

I don't understand why all bathrooms haven't been converted to co-ed.  Solid walls, locking doors, everything covered floor to ceiling.  MIT had that in their dorms back in the 90's and it seems like a more fair system for everyone.  Especially women, because we wouldn't have to wait in public bathroom lines as long with more stalls available. And if some creepy guy is going to attack you in a restroom I seriously doubt the symbol of the woman in the dress on the door is going to stop him.  It might be more safe because men are more likely to physically intervene in attack than women are IME.

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I don't have anything else to add, really, because it's been covered well.  But pointing out to people their already-truths tends to help.

Small story: one of the measures on our ballot this year was whether or not to allow transgender access to things like restrooms.  The "Vote NO" sign literally had a picture of a stick figure standing on a toilet and peeping over.  DS(adult) was musing one night as we read the voting guide and said he would vote no because the thought of sharing a restroom with transgender people made him uncomfortable.  Boy was he in for a shock when I told him he probably had been already!  And that it was kinda pervy to be looking into another person's stall to see what genitalia they had and make sure they had a right to be there.  How did he plan on enforcing the law?  And after seeing pictures of people who were trans, he said it might make him more uncomfortable to have a beautiful lady standing next to him at the urinal. ?

I have no idea how he voted, but I do know that he discussed the issue more with other people and came to a conclusion for himself.  And he started researching the gender spectrum a bit. 

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A really good movie or book (especially thoughtful fiction) can work on a person's mind.

I don't like the idea that some adults should be trying to change other adults.  It feels condescending.  But just being a good example and voicing your own opinion in a mature way can make a difference.

Also be open to (a) understand why others feel as they do and (b) consider the possibility that you aren't right about everything, including (perhaps) the thing you want others to change into.  This mutual respect is likely to inspire others to be more open to your ideas as well.

Really, the best way to get others to evolve is to inspire (not pressure or shame) them to examine their own beliefs.  Asking them (respectfully) to explain their thoughts to you is a great way to start that process.

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16 minutes ago, StellaM said:

First define bigotry.

Dictionary definitions differ but tend to speak of unreasonable intolerance. To be frank, bigots, as broadly defined, exist in all sections of society. 

Do you mean racist bigotry ? Or other forms of bigotry ? I think that being specific helps here, as there is no single answer to all forms of intolerance, and indeed, reasonable vs unreasonable intolerance is not always easy to define. (You're being unreasonable, I'm reasonable is the way it tends to go for all of us).

 

 

 

 

Since this post came out of a post discussing racial bigotry, I particularly did mean racial bigotry. But it could apply to other circumstances, of course; sexual orientation, religion, political party affiliation. 

In the other thread, there was talk about people who are “kinda racist.” This is the specific thing I wish to manage better. There’s not going to be anyone at Thanksgiving dinner who would rally up a cry to go put on hoods and burn crosses. But the “kinda racist” statements? Yes, that could happen. 

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think trying to steer the person is a problem, honestly. You're trying to find out what the person believes, and then stating your disagreement if you disagree, or you're just setting a boundary for yourself (same as the racist jokes, or the rape jokes or whatever - your goal is to set a boundary that says 'not near me thanks') Why is your goal to steer people ?

I’m sure you’re probably right. My thinking is it would be better than what we have currently, which is that someone (a public figure) says some tone-deaf thing (maybe it’s something she genuinely never thought about before, maybe she is dog-whistling to the white supremicists, maybe she’s just repeating the idiom Uncle Bob always used - who knows for sure?) but in any case, there’s not a conversation happening whereby she can potentially move away from that statement and the beliefs or views that possibly underpin it. 

I mean, we can’t eradicate the “big” racism if we can’t even have a conversation about the “little” racism. It seems to me that one way to help shrink the mob of racists who show up at rallys is in the living rooms of the individuals who make up those rallys. 

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5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Look, I am literally the last person to give advice about calm dialogue, because I can't do it. But I do know the theory - and the point is, you CAN have a conversation. Asking your friend 'Oh, why do you think that ?' is a conversation. 

If someone thinks the hanging comment is NBD, ask  'Oh , why do you think that ? ' and then in response "From my perspective I feel it was referencing lynching and I felt really uncomfortable about that'. Maybe they'll say 'Oh, didn't think of that' or maybe they'll say 'You libtard you read the lying mainstream press', but you can start the conversation.

Or you end up with the annoying person like me saying, "Oh, I didn't think of that. What makes you think it was referencing lynching?" Or, "I guess I can see how you could see it that way, but I don't necessarily think it's a racist comment,"  and then IRL in a family situation we'd probably both argue and then shrug and move on with our lives. On the internet...it's different. I think that just by asking those questions here I am perceived as racist. I don't know.

I have been one to call out my relatives about racism or other issues I'm passionate about. We have argued and I'm not necessarily polite about some of it because we're loud people, but I guess in the end we still sit down and eat holiday dinner together and accept each other's perceived flaws.

Edited by EmseB
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4 hours ago, Quill said:

Since this post came out of a post discussing racial bigotry, I particularly did mean racial bigotry. But it could apply to other circumstances, of course; sexual orientation, religion, political party affiliation. 

 

In my general area, there is a disdain of people who aren’t democrats and who aren’t giving blanket support to women (jobs, sexual harassment, glass ceiling) in a very black and white way by some very vocal people. For example when women didn’t say they vote for Hilary Clinton, other women slammed them on social media and in real life as not supporting women. If you (general) didn’t agree with Trump bashing and Obama praising then you must be racist. That shuts down any potential discussion and turns all conversation into some kind of echo chamber.

Facebook stupidly filtered my news feed prior to Election Day. I had to use my web browser to read more news because Facebook was so censored. It could be unintentional or it could be political, either way Facebook was one big echo chamber. 

DS13 was asking me whether I see myself as democrat or republican (due to the recent elections his age peers were gossiping about political parties) and I told him both are cr*p so I identify as no party affiliation. It set him thinking because he thought democrat was the safe answer to give and did not realize none was a possible answer.

As for racial bigotry, there is bigotry even among Chinese. My in-laws who are Cantonese Chinese sees themselves as “higher pedigree” (superiority complex) than other groups of Chinese. My FIL’s siblings doesn’t think that way but gave up convincing FIL. The thing is my in-laws are not in a position to discriminate or intimidate other “inferior” Chinese so his siblings just gave up and hope no stranger is offended and assault my in-laws for being insulting in public. My FIL’s sisters are conservative but they support LGBT while being split on gay marriage being legalized. So saying they are anti-LGBT because they don’t support gay marriages would be shutting down conversation, and alienating people who support LGBT’s rights to toilets and equal opportunity to jobs (including military jobs). My husband’s brother and wife are anti-LGBT for religious reasons and they go to a megachurch. They know my husband and I have many transgender friends so they splash their anti-LGBT messages on Facebook but keep that out of family conversations. 

My husband and I don’t have an activist personality. If people are willing to talk it out, we could explain our viewpoint and they could explain theirs. For elderly relatives and friends, sometimes you have to see if they are “mentally there”. My late paternal grandma could argue until the day she died. She was just very in the know and very mentally sharp. She might have made some racist remarks but you can get an explanation/backstory out of her and you can argue with her. My late maternal grandpa was however sometimes lost in his memories and explaining to him something is like explaining to a daydreaming person. It’s not that he was rude but he was probably lost in his world of reminiscences. My husband’s grandma has dementia and can’t remember what she says most of the time. She might have made unintentional racist remarks but it would be very hard to explain to her that her comment is racist since she can’t remember what she said or did a few minutes ago, as well as can’t recognize her kids sometimes.

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Someone up thread talked about experiences shaping you.  Things like geography do too.  My son-in-law says 'kinda racist" things that come from his being raised by even more racist family and having the experience of a totally failing city that is almost entirely black, with very high crime and just awfully run down streets, neighborhoods, etc. One thing that I do is try to educate by pointing out problems with his views.  Like I do not dimish the high crime rate of the city near his parents' house but I do point out that in the area he lives now, most of the burglaries and other theft crimes that he is most likely to be affected by (and the truck was broken into and items stolen) tend to be white criminals around here. Just happens to be the pattern here. And the other issue he is always harping on is free money for them but not for him.  I have explained a few times to my dd what he misinterprets (as she does she as her mil could not understand why she couldn't be on Tricare after she got married since someone at work had his married daughter still on Tricare---- almost everything he is describing is people defrauding the govt) but I have given up on explaining that to him.

One popular bigotry is against homeless people or nearly homeless people.  I don't like people begging as much as anyone else but being polite is a different matter.  I go to a library that has a lot of homeless going to also.  People have tried to convince me not to go to that library but those people who do not go seem to think I am putting my life at risk. No, I am not.  Nor was I when I took my kids to downtowns whether to go to the library or to a concert or whatever in all those cities where people were cautioning me that they never go downtown. It was different groups in different cities that some people were afraid of.  But on that other thread, someone mentioned all these white people who are 'kindaracist' because they want people living near them that are similar in behavior to them.  I do not think that is racist at all-- I never cared what race anyone was- I cared that I didn't have crazed, bad neighbors (which I did have several times and they all happened to be white).   

 

 

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Warning:  This is a religious post.  I am a Christian.  As one, I believe we are all created in God's image and that being bigoted or thinking another human is below you because of race, creed, circumstance, etc....is spitting in God's face and telling God that He made a mistake.  

My father always said, that the only people we need to love are the people that Jesus died for.  Period.

And I will repeat that to fellow Christians.  

If someone is not a Christian, I will still say something......and cater it to the circumstances.  For example.....making fun of homeless?  I will comment that we are very fortunate to not have the issues that they do.  Any of us could have the mental issues, financial issues, or whatever that they do.  Bigotry against a certain race?  We are very fortunate to have been born into the families we were born into.  But no one has a say in where or who they are born to.  

I got some serious vindication once.   I have a friend who is Christian but still very bigoted.  We went to a play in the city (Children's Theater) with the homeschool group.  There were school groups coming in from the area.  The play started 20 min. late because 2 schools didn't arrive on time and they were most of the audience.  The first of those two busses came and they had mostly African American students.  She made some comment about "we always have to cater to THEM" and I was so irritated.  Well, almost 10 full minutes later the next school finally arrived.  They are almost all white.  I can't remember what I commented and I wasn't rude about it, but I did point out that the latest school was NOT AA, and that the kids have nothing to do with when the buses leave a school.

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I have some of those "kinda racist" relatives. In the past an awkward look and silence and a generalized comment like "Uncle so and so, come on ..." after an outburst has always been enough to steer the conversation into another direction.

But that only changes the subject, not anybody's mind. I'm not convinced that any one person can change any one other person's mind or heart about this. (I'm a Christian so I generally think that hearts can only be changed by Jesus, and my job is to serve others and let Him do the changing.) Most people who hold racist views aren't stupid or evil people, they hold the views they do because of past experiences (whether their own or told to them by racist authority figures) that they mistakenly generalize to an entire population. The only thing IME that will overcome those generalizations is for them to have other experiences that contradict those generalizations. Unfortunately, the more polarizing life in the US becomes, the less likely people are to have those new experiences with new people though. ?

Frequent honest deep conversations over time in conjunction with a good solid respectful relationship can change people's opinions too, but how many of us have those kinds of relationships with more than a handful or two of people? Definitely not with relatives I only see a couple times a year or only interact with on Facebook...

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I think that part of the solution is having conversations that offer a different (perhaps insider) perspective.

 

When I was in college I worked in the tutoring center.  Friends of mine sometimes made derogatory comment about student athletes, football players in particular.

Yes, I did know quite a few of the student athletes because they came in for tutoring.

But, I let my friends know that it was not because they were "dumb jocks" who were "entitled".  By showing them what the life of an athlete is really like, I was able to change a few minds.

Because I saw them "behind the scenes" I had more knowledge of the situation than most of the other students.

I asked my friends some questions like:

"What would happen if you missed class every Monday and every Friday because you had to travel to an away game?  Wouldn't you maybe need tutoring, too."

"What about if you had to get up at 5 am every morning to run stadium steps?  Wouldn't you maybe have a hard time studying at the end of the day?"

"Yes, I know that athletes have a 'special' line in the cafeteria just for them.  Did you know that that is the only food that they are allowed to eat, while you have the choice of every other line in the cafeteria.  Including dessert?"

 

Having conversations like this helped my friends to see the athletes from a different perspective.

 

One of the football players once overheard one of these conversations.  After the other person walked away, the football player approached me and thanked me for standing up for him and his teammates.

 

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19 minutes ago, Junie said:

One of the football players once overheard one of these conversations.  After the other person walked away, the football player approached me and thanked me for standing up for him and his teammates.

 

 

Seriously, thank-you from me, too.  I have a high school-aged son playing competitive football and he's so exhausted right now, he's passing out every time we get in the car.  I have to cut him some slack with school towards the end of the season.  

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One thing that may seem too obvious is that you bringing along a close friend or "significant other" of color can make other people think twice.

Not that I recommend this as a method, but when I adopted my kids, people rather quickly got smart about what was related to biological race and what wasn't.  I didn't have to say anything, except to one person.  I've seen this happen when someone dates or marries or rooms with a person of color.  Or brings them to church or whatever. 

Some things just don't challenge some people (in a good way) until they are "in their face."

I remember my grandma, decades ago, talking stereotypically about certain races/ethnicities as a group.  Then she would stop herself and say, "I do have black friends [or I know your friends of color] and they aren't like that.  I'm not talking about them."  Still not an enlightened thought, but on the path if she weren't already in her declining years.

Now my mom will occasionally drop a comment that probably came from her rough youth, and I think it's because some things may be deteriorating upstairs.  I don't know that there's much you can do about that.  I'm not going to sever our relationship over stuff that happens to older people.

Edited by SKL
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1. Start with ourselves and examine our own internal bigotries and biases.  Make sure we are living our values and not discriminating on racial or other lines.  One example:  I was meeting with a new client.  The ED is an African woman who wears hijab.  The board volunteer is a white man of considerable means, which I knew becuase of a philanthropic affiliation.  I checked myself because I found I was looking at and talking to him more than her.  I even called myself out a bit for it, which they appreciated.  They retained my services and I’ve been working with them for awhile now.  One reason they liked me was because I caught myself and was honest about it.  Apparently most people they had seen totally ignored the ED and just talked to the volunteer.  

2. Don’t let bigoted jokes/assumptions/mild comments go unchallenged.  I’m not talking about pouncing on people, but not being silent and thus presumed complicit when people say bigoted things.  I say things like “I beg your pardon?”, “why is that?”, “that’s not really my idea of humor”, “I definitely don’t agree with that” a fair bit.  One can convey disapproval without chewing anyone out.  

3. Sometimes it’s more than a bigoted comment.  Sometimes someone is expressing an ideology or plan that is legit repugnant.  In that case, I do feel it’s important to not amplify their voice with my silence.  I used that with a holocaust denier sort not too long ago.  I also used it when one of my son’s friends was going off a Christian denomination.  In those cases, it’s call a spade a spade. 

Edited by LucyStoner
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1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

You might want to change your thread title if you want to restrict the bigotry discussion to race issues.   

The only way I've seen to change racial bigotry on an individual level is to ensure good health and a secure economic position as well as enough education/travel funds to be able to reason rather than rely on the words of a 'leader' and to have economic opportunity.  Also realize that many of these people were raised in a competitive or classist environment, and their ego has to find someone they are 'better than'.

What is said at the Thanksgiving table is going to depend on socioeconomics more than anything.  Those who have lost their jobs, their homes, experienced reduced hours , excessive legal costs or lack of educational and employment opportunity  due to racial reasons are going to be bitter because they too need to eat, to acquire job skills, and to have the dignity of providing for themselves. Increasingly I am not seeing this to be racially based, outside of govt mandated quotas and those who use nepotism in hiring.  If you want to have an interesting convo, talk to elderly women who weren't teachers/nurses.  Rosie the Riveter wasn't encouraged to keep doing skilled work once the men returned. 

 

I think there is really something to this, though I don't know that it is really about ego.  Whenever people are insecure in terms of basic needs - safety, housing etc, there is a much higher chance of all kinds of social unrest and friction.  It does not have to mean the people have to be destitute, only that they lack security and realistically worry about their needs being met - It could be on any lines that are things that are part of people's consciousness be it religion, race, whatever. But if there is overlap between the security issues it will be really difficult to avoid some sort of tension - so if you have these groups having different economic circumstances, or other significant demographic differences like crime rate, or targeted government programs, or one group is seen as having advantage over, or to be taking advantage of, another.

I wonder if it isn't some deep-seated primitive lizard brain way of making sure that you are not at the bottom of the pack - because when times get tough, those are the members most likely to perish.

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5 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

So, it is really interesting to me that so far no one has argued for the direct confrontation route.  Some people seem to prefer that approach in other discussions of particular topics, so I am curious as to the reason - do people feel those are different kinds of situations?

 

1.  One can be direct without being confrontational.  

2.  I described confronting my own actions head on.  The main person that we can address bias with is ourselves.  Am I a racist asshat?  I don't think so.  But I am a white person and a product of this culture and nothing exempts from the racism, sexism and other bias that is deeply ingrained in this culture.  Having a black brother and being a hands-on aunt (really a secondary parental type) for brown children doesn't mean anything besides I have the opportunity to see racial bias in a way that many white people do not.  It does not make me above racial bias any more than my feminism means I never fall into sexist bias traps.  In the example I used, I found myself interacting more with a wealthy white male volunteer than a black woman director who was wearing a hijab.  Rather than make excuses for myself, I caught it and challenged myself to do better.  

3.  People learn more when they listen and listen more when they aren't being attacked.  I can be, and have been, quite direct when challenging bias but I've found that directly asking for more information or clarification does more in the moment to get people to see WTF they are doing than telling them they are being racist.  Some of that falls into the category of showing rather than telling.  

4.  I've learned to save my outrage for when it's needed.  Dude is getting handsy and lewd with a racial undertone with my teenage niece?  THAT's who I need to be ready to go to the mat.  If I am wearing myself out with outrage over every bigoted thing I come across, there's nothing left to fight the fights that matter most.  

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Something to think about. I watched Jada Pinkett Smith's Red Table Talk yesterday which was about racism between women of color and white women.  Do you all remember Jane Elliot, the teacher way back in the 60's who did the brown eye, green eye exercise in her classroom which was really controversial at the time.  She was on the show and it was interesting to say the least. Still processing but it was timely with your question. 

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A book I've heard discussed lately addresses Quill's question, though in a roundabout way. This is one I really want to read, but haven't yet. The author and the man he writes about have been interviewed on several radio shows I've heard, including Fresh Air on NPR, I believe, if anyone wants to track the broadcasts down.

https://www.amazon.com/Rising-Out-Hatred-Awakening-Nationalist-ebook/dp/B078LJKP88/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_en coding=UTF8&qid=1542237708&sr=8-1

Essentially the young man who's the subject of the book has his white supremacist attitudes changed by being very intentionally befriended by some very brave and very patient fellow students at college. This is part of Amazon's description:


"Derek Black grew up at the epicenter of white nationalism. His father founded Stormfront, the largest racist community on the Internet. His godfather, David Duke, was a KKK Grand Wizard. By the time Derek turned nineteen, he had become an elected politician with his own daily radio show - already regarded as the "the leading light" of the burgeoning white nationalist movement. "We can infiltrate," Derek once told a crowd of white nationalists. "We can take the country back."
     Then he went to college. Derek had been home-schooled by his parents, steeped in the culture of white supremacy, and he had rarely encountered diverse perspectives or direct outrage against his beliefs. At New College of Florida, he continued to broadcast his radio show in secret each morning, living a double life until a classmate uncovered his identity and sent an email to the entire school. "Derek Black...white supremacist, radio host...New College student???"
     The ensuing uproar overtook one of the most liberal colleges in the country. Some students protested Derek's presence on campus, forcing him to reconcile for the first time with the ugliness his beliefs. Other students found the courage to reach out to him, including an Orthodox Jew who invited Derek to attend weekly Shabbat dinners. It was because of those dinners--and the wide-ranging relationships formed at that table--that Derek started to question the science, history and prejudices behind his worldview. As white nationalism infiltrated the political mainstream, Derek decided to confront the damage he had done."

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I have let situations go by that I still regret not confronting.  One was my elderly neighbor......we had just moved here and they stopped to chat with us while we were in the yard one day.  They commented about our house.....we were fixing it up.....she said, in the sweetest syrupy southern voice, 'we remodeled a house in town, but the blacks bought it and.....' her voice trailed off but the implication was clear that 'the blacks' had ruined their creation.  I was so shocked and sickened and beyond myself that I said nothing.  I kept thinking that everything I WANTED to say was just not the thing to say to a new neighbor....ugh!  it still makes me mad that I didn't speak up.  

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I wish I could make a great speech and convince people of the error of their ways, but I know I can't, so I remind myself of that over and over when biting my tongue at the holiday table/scrolling through Facebook. The best I can hope for, generally, is to plant a seed of thought that will, in time, bear some fruit, which isn't nothing. I try to follow these rules for entering into discourse:   -if it's someone I know won't listen to me/respect me/care, I'll only speak up if their words are affecting other people listening, like children or a member of the despised group. Then I'll say something, though I don't expect to have any affect on the speaker. -if it's someone who might listen, figure out that person's perspective, speak their language, and try to just plant a seed of doubt, an opportunity to think things through, rather than get them to change immediately. Frankly, if I could get a person to do an immediate 360, probably some racist could come along and re convince them just as easily. These changes have to come from within to be long-lasting.

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22 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think there is really something to this, though I don't know that it is really about ego.  Whenever people are insecure in terms of basic needs - safety, housing etc, there is a much higher chance of all kinds of social unrest and friction.  It does not have to mean the people have to be destitute, only that they lack security and realistically worry about their needs being met - It could be on any lines that are things that are part of people's consciousness be it religion, race, whatever. But if there is overlap between the security issues it will be really difficult to avoid some sort of tension - so if you have these groups having different economic circumstances, or other significant demographic differences like crime rate, or targeted government programs, or one group is seen as having advantage over, or to be taking advantage of, another.

I wonder if it isn't some deep-seated primitive lizard brain way of making sure that you are not at the bottom of the pack - because when times get tough, those are the members most likely to perish.

Sorry, everyone, I am only just catching up to this today; I was off-line yesterday. 

The difficulty I have seen with this is when people who are by no means disadvantaged nevertheless feel disadvantaged because they have less than some other people they know. So there is simply class envy, even though the person doing the envying has all his or her needs met and some or many comforts besides. 

One relative, whom I’ll just call Betty, exemplifies this. She is in a perfectly comfortable (as far as I can observe externally) position in life. But I have heard her speak resentfully of people who enjoy benefits she doesn’t get; in each case so far, the recipients have been non-white people. I don’t think that is coincidental. In one case, there was a natural disaster. (I don’t remember which one, but for example, the earthquake in Haiti.) She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin. There’s so much here. How can you be so sure she has Botox? Even if she does, what difference does it make in her needing food now? Does she not deserve help for some reason? Why do you even want Botox, you vain, pretty woman? ? 

So part of the problem as I see it is not literal disadvantage, it’s just the simple fear or worry that one doesn’t have as much as someone else, or that “less deserving” people are getting something they aren’t. 

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26 minutes ago, Quill said:

Sorry, everyone, I am only just catching up to this today; I was off-line yesterday. 

The difficulty I have seen with this is when people who are by no means disadvantaged nevertheless feel disadvantaged because they have less than some other people they know. So there is simply class envy, even though the person doing the envying has all his or her needs met and some or many comforts besides. 

One relative, whom I’ll just call Betty, exemplifies this. She is in a perfectly comfortable (as far as I can observe externally) position in life. But I have heard her speak resentfully of people who enjoy benefits she doesn’t get; in each case so far, the recipients have been non-white people. I don’t think that is coincidental. In one case, there was a natural disaster. (I don’t remember which one, but for example, the earthquake in Haiti.) She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin. There’s so much here. How can you be so sure she has Botox? Even if she does, what difference does it make in her needing food now? Does she not deserve help for some reason? Why do you even want Botox, you vain, pretty woman? ? 

So part of the problem as I see it is not literal disadvantage, it’s just the simple fear or worry that one doesn’t have as much as someone else, or that “less deserving” people are getting something they aren’t. 

I think this is part of the problem that I was observing with the college athletes.  Why do they get full scholarships...

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40 minutes ago, Quill said:

Sorry, everyone, I am only just catching up to this today; I was off-line yesterday. 

The difficulty I have seen with this is when people who are by no means disadvantaged nevertheless feel disadvantaged because they have less than some other people they know. So there is simply class envy, even though the person doing the envying has all his or her needs met and some or many comforts besides. 

One relative, whom I’ll just call Betty, exemplifies this. She is in a perfectly comfortable (as far as I can observe externally) position in life. But I have heard her speak resentfully of people who enjoy benefits she doesn’t get; in each case so far, the recipients have been non-white people. I don’t think that is coincidental. In one case, there was a natural disaster. (I don’t remember which one, but for example, the earthquake in Haiti.) She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin. There’s so much here. How can you be so sure she has Botox? Even if she does, what difference does it make in her needing food now? Does she not deserve help for some reason? Why do you even want Botox, you vain, pretty woman? ? 

So part of the problem as I see it is not literal disadvantage, it’s just the simple fear or worry that one doesn’t have as much as someone else, or that “less deserving” people are getting something they aren’t. 

What an insufferable attitude.  I’d want to say things like, “Jealous much?” Or “Well, aren’t you selfish!”  Or “Because people starving after a disaster ruins all the food is all about YOU and what YOU want.”  That wouldn't be productive, of course.  I don’t have advice, but what a terribly annoying person.  

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Yeah, there are some differences in priorities i.e. choices that people feel free to judge.  Also some people feel free to make ASSumptions based on just seeing one section of the elephant.

For the specific comment about the botox, if I bothered to comment at all, I would just remind the person that anyone's fortunes can change in a moment through no fault of their own.  Then their prior choices have little effect on whether or not they are hungry right now.  Even if you had $100K in the bank you might not be able to access it right away in a disaster.

Or you could just default to a generalization e.g. "I try to remind myself not to make assumptions based on seeing only one section of the elephant."  Or the old saying about not judging anyone until you have walked a mile in his moccasins.  But use "I," not "you."

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

Sorry, everyone, I am only just catching up to this today; I was off-line yesterday. 

The difficulty I have seen with this is when people who are by no means disadvantaged nevertheless feel disadvantaged because they have less than some other people they know. So there is simply class envy, even though the person doing the envying has all his or her needs met and some or many comforts besides. 

One relative, whom I’ll just call Betty, exemplifies this. She is in a perfectly comfortable (as far as I can observe externally) position in life. But I have heard her speak resentfully of people who enjoy benefits she doesn’t get; in each case so far, the recipients have been non-white people. I don’t think that is coincidental. In one case, there was a natural disaster. (I don’t remember which one, but for example, the earthquake in Haiti.) She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin. There’s so much here. How can you be so sure she has Botox? Even if she does, what difference does it make in her needing food now? Does she not deserve help for some reason? Why do you even want Botox, you vain, pretty woman? ? 

So part of the problem as I see it is not literal disadvantage, it’s just the simple fear or worry that one doesn’t have as much as someone else, or that “less deserving” people are getting something they aren’t. 

 

Class envy is a thing for sure, and I find it just as distasteful as snobbish elitism.  And, some people are just envious and don't want to see others have anything good.

THat's not really what I was thinking about though, people looking at what others have. I suspect some will always be like that, it is maybe a personality thing.

More that when people see their own position becoming insecure - they are not sure if they will keep their job, or if their pay will keep up with food, mortgage, healthcare, and other fixed expenses, or they see that they won't be able to make sure their kids will be secure - that begins to create a lot of social friction.  It might be happening to them, or those around them, but the sense of insecurity is the real problem even more than the level of wealth, if that makes sense.

Now, class does start to come into it because people do start to feel a lot of stress in relation to the commitments and expectations they have.  If you live in a huge family estate and can't pay the bills and your bath falls through the ceiling, maybe we want to say too bad so sad, move into a condo.  Or if suddenly you can't send your kids to the private school all your peers do.  At the same time, I think that is pretty human, and it also can be a real bind - if you can't sell a place like that, and that is a likely scenario really, you can go bankrupt as well as the next guy.  Our social expectations are set by society to some degree, just like other people feel they should be able to afford, say, a gaming console.

Anyway, my thought is that when a lot of people are feeling this way, especially (but maybe not exclusively)  a lot of people in the lower half of the class pyramid, and they see others doing better than ever, there is a lot of scope suddenly for serious social friction.  And that can come out at the wealthy, or those who are "traditional" enemies or scapegoats, or people who seem to be getting something for doing less, whatever.  I think it's more of a displacement of fear, rather than ego.  And in some cases just a sense of an injustice somehow being done, and maybe you can't quite figure out how.  (Especially if realising how it is really happening means questioning something like your commitment to American exceptionalism.)

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

Sorry, everyone, I am only just catching up to this today; I was off-line yesterday. 

The difficulty I have seen with this is when people who are by no means disadvantaged nevertheless feel disadvantaged because they have less than some other people they know. So there is simply class envy, even though the person doing the envying has all his or her needs met and some or many comforts besides. 

One relative, whom I’ll just call Betty, exemplifies this. She is in a perfectly comfortable (as far as I can observe externally) position in life. But I have heard her speak resentfully of people who enjoy benefits she doesn’t get; in each case so far, the recipients have been non-white people. I don’t think that is coincidental. In one case, there was a natural disaster. (I don’t remember which one, but for example, the earthquake in Haiti.) She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin. There’s so much here. How can you be so sure she has Botox? Even if she does, what difference does it make in her needing food now? Does she not deserve help for some reason? Why do you even want Botox, you vain, pretty woman? ? 

So part of the problem as I see it is not literal disadvantage, it’s just the simple fear or worry that one doesn’t have as much as someone else, or that “less deserving” people are getting something they aren’t. 

Oh I have an example like that.  My cousin who,  like Betty, is more than comfortable financially, complained endlessly about the poor family we know who gets free medical (specifically babies deliver for free).  My mom finally said to her, 'If you were in the same situation they are in YOU would also qualify for free medical.  Do you really want to trade your income for free medical?'  I doubt she ever changed but she did quit complaining to my mom.

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Or people who see a young mother in the line at the grocery store using government benefits while carrying a Coach bag.  'I can't afford a Coach bag, but there SHE has one and is on Food Stamps!' .  Yeah, that is a logical judgment--Not.  Maybe the purse was a gift.  Maybe she got it before her husband abandoned her with small children to feed.  Maybe she is picking up groceries for her elderly disabled neighbor.  You have NO IDEA so stop judging!!!

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

She said something like, “There was this woman on the news, begging for help - she had Botox! I could tell right there (pointing to her forehead)! She has Botox but she’s begging for food! I don’t see anyone helping me out! I want Botox...” 

When something like that happens, I hear all these things and I don’t know where to even begin.

 

Does she get affected by news and does she have too much free time? My MIL and late grandma and a late aunt loves comparing their lives with others. The difference is my grandma and aunt seems lots more secured (higher self esteem) and the way they talk when they compare sound more like a balanced argumentative essay (they love to talk) then a whine (woe is me kind). My MIL does better when she is kept busy and doesn’t have too much time to compare.

We are having three big wildfires here in California. When the news about homes of actors, actresses and singers in Malibu were damaged was posted a few times, people commented that the people in Paradise lost everything while the Hollywood people have multiple homes and income so they shouldn’t be given more news coverage than Paradise. The thing is Facebook did put the news on which famous people’s homes were gone high on my newsfeed while the Paradise damage was more on PG&E lawsuits. So while your relative may not get their news source from Facebook,  I won’t think it an over reaction if they get their news only from something like my weirdly censored Facebook news feed. I subscribe to all my local news channels on Facebook but only get ABC7news these days, CBS5, Kron4, Fox2 did not show up  and I have to go to their respective Facebook pages to check that the liked/following thing is not disabled.

I think if you know the root causes for your relative’s comments it would be easier to navigate the conversation. For example saying anything that unintentionally makes my MIL feel even more inferior is not going to help since she would go on a whining tirade more. Using news about people she don’t know to discuss makes her less “defensive”. Maybe your relative feels she is not pretty enough so Botox or any signs of cosmetic surgery on other people would trigger her. My MIL commented on Caucasians spending money at nail salons instead of DIY and it wasn’t about race because she make the same remark about wasting money on her own race when she pass by a nail salon with all Asian customers. For her the nail salon is a fun expense she can’t afford and that’s what she is actually complaining about (she had said she is unhappy that she wasn’t born in a richer family and didn’t marry someone wealthy). If you only heard her comment about Caucasians in nail salons, you might have thought it is a racial remark. She could have drop the race description and said the same comment about wasting money at nail salons.

As for scholarships and policies based on race/sports/religion, the thing is people can be upset about the policy and not the race/sports/religion. For example Asians encompass many ethnicities but they are traditionally lumped together so the minority Asians were saying that they get less academic help because they are lumped with Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Indians, and they think they should be under the URM category.

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Does she get affected by news and does she have too much free time? My MIL and late grandma and a late aunt loves comparing their lives with others. The difference is my grandma and aunt seems lots more secured (higher self esteem) and the way they talk when they compare sound more like a balanced argumentative essay (they love to talk) then a whine (woe is me kind). My MIL does better when she is kept busy and doesn’t have too much time to compare.

Yes, “Betty” has too much time on her hands and spends too much time on incendiary media that heightens her sense of injustice. 

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7 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

I guess y'all havent looked at the weather forecast today.  Its no joke for kids to be out in 20 F weather in a thin hoodie, while the recipient is happily getting luxuries. Coat drives are going  on here now, but they haven't been passed out.   Most of these families will be losing power tonight.  But if that is how you roll, that's how you roll.  I now understand why you asked the original question.  

No, Heigh Ho, it is no joke. I am sitting here in my nice, warm sunroom listening to sleet beat on the windows. I won’t even let my cat stay ouside and she has a thick fur coat. 

In your previous post, you said that people who don’t work get acne medcation for their kids while people who work do not because they can’t afford it. That doesn’t resonate with my experience and I didn’t see anyone talking about who gets a warm coat. 

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

No, Heigh Ho, it is no joke. I am sitting here in my nice, warm sunroom listening to sleet beat on the windows. I won’t even let my cat stay ouside and she has a thick fur coat. 

In your previous post, you said that people who don’t work get acne medcation for their kids while people who work do not because they can’t afford it. That doesn’t resonate with my experience and I didn’t see anyone talking about who gets a warm coat. 

I am sure this has changed somewhat, but I remember when I was a kid how because my folks both worked (working class), we didn't qualify for a lot of stuff that our friends with SAHMs got for free.  An example - eyeglasses.  I was legally blind.  I had to wait until 3rd grade before my parents could buy my first pair of glasses, and by the time I was 9, I had to take myself by bus (alone) to the optometrist because my folks were working during their business hours.  Meanwhile, a family friend of my age got a free exam and free glasses from a welfare program administered at school.  Then there were subsidized summer camps and after-school programs that were not open to families with earned income.  There were "clothing orders" for kids on benefits to get brand new clothes every year while I wore Salvation Army or other hand-me-downs.  And doctor visits - the free services and also the time to use them.  I think it's fairly well established that even today, there is an income range where you can neither afford all the standard stuff nor get assistance.  That group of people are naturally going to be annoyed about it when they see it - regardless of skin color.

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am sure this has changed somewhat, but I remember when I was a kid how because my folks both worked (working class), we didn't qualify for a lot of stuff that our friends with SAHMs got for free.  An example - eyeglasses.  I was legally blind.  I had to wait until 3rd grade before my parents could buy my first pair of glasses, and by the time I was 9, I had to take myself by bus (alone) to the optometrist because my folks were working during their business hours.  Meanwhile, a family friend of my age got a free exam and free glasses from a welfare program administered at school.  Then there were subsidized summer camps and after-school programs that were not open to families with earned income.  There were "clothing orders" for kids on benefits to get brand new clothes every year while I wore Salvation Army or other hand-me-downs.  I think it's fairly well established that even today, there is an income range where you can neither afford all the standard stuff nor get assistance.  That group of people are naturally going to be annoyed about it when they see it - regardless of skin color.

I guess, but in my family growing up, there was always a sense of pride in not accepting welfare options even if we would have qualified, which is probable. My parents did access “personal charity,” like grab-bags of cast off clothing from church but AFAIK, always scraped up money for things that probably could have been accessed through govt programs. They did not really consider it “honorable” to use those programs unless some tragedy beyond one’s control was the reason they were needed. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am sure this has changed somewhat, but I remember when I was a kid how because my folks both worked (working class), we didn't qualify for a lot of stuff that our friends with SAHMs got for free.  An example - eyeglasses.  I was legally blind.  I had to wait until 3rd grade before my parents could buy my first pair of glasses, and by the time I was 9, I had to take myself by bus (alone) to the optometrist because my folks were working during their business hours.  Meanwhile, a family friend of my age got a free exam and free glasses from a welfare program administered at school.  Then there were subsidized summer camps and after-school programs that were not open to families with earned income.  There were "clothing orders" for kids on benefits to get brand new clothes every year while I wore Salvation Army or other hand-me-downs.  And doctor visits - the free services and also the time to use them.  I think it's fairly well established that even today, there is an income range where you can neither afford all the standard stuff nor get assistance.  That group of people are naturally going to be annoyed about it when they see it - regardless of skin color.

I am not annoyed when anyone gets medical care or food for themselves or their children. 

And SKL, when did you find out you needed glasses?  I didn't get my first pair until I was in 6th grade.  And a lot of people put their kids in 2nd hand clothes.  If your parents wanted to they could have had your mom be a SAHM so that she could have taken care of the kids and got you to doctors appointments and maybe even qualified for free medical.  

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12 minutes ago, Quill said:

I guess, but in my family growing up, there was always a sense of pride in not accepting welfare options even if we would have qualified, which is probable. My parents did access “personal charity,” like grab-bags of cast off clothing from church but AFAIK, always scraped up money for things that probably could have been accessed through govt programs. They did not really consider it “honorable” to use those programs unless some tragedy beyond one’s control was the reason they were needed. 

 

 

My mom's parents were like this.  My mom calls it false pride. Shrug.  I can see both sides of it.

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In our old town where most people were either really struggling or very well off, we were some of those few who got squeezed in the middle.  We couldn’t afford everything people had and we were fine with that; that’s just the way normal life works.  But I sometimes got questions from folks who didn’t seem to know that.  “Are you sending your kids to head start or the private preschool?”  “If they like sports, why don’t your kids do all the team sports?”  “Oh, you don’t need to get clothes from the thrift store!  They’re doing a clothing drive with new clothes for free!”  Lots of people just didn’t understand that there’s a pretty big space between poor enough for assistance and well-off enough to pay for all the things that assistance provided.

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1 hour ago, Quill said:

I guess, but in my family growing up, there was always a sense of pride in not accepting welfare options even if we would have qualified, which is probable. My parents did access “personal charity,” like grab-bags of cast off clothing from church but AFAIK, always scraped up money for things that probably could have been accessed through govt programs. They did not really consider it “honorable” to use those programs unless some tragedy beyond one’s control was the reason they were needed. 

 

 

Same here, but doesn't that imply that people who do receive benefits are worthy of negative judgment?  So it's the same thing.  The attitude that "we working folks are paying for people who don't work to have what we can't afford."

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I am not annoyed when anyone gets medical care or food for themselves or their children. 

And SKL, when did you find out you needed glasses?  I didn't get my first pair until I was in 6th grade.  And a lot of people put their kids in 2nd hand clothes.  If your parents wanted to they could have had your mom be a SAHM so that she could have taken care of the kids and got you to doctors appointments and maybe even qualified for free medical.  

Again, I was legally blind.  I could never see the chalkboard since my first day of KG at age 4.

My mom had too many kids to afford to be a SAHM, and it was just as well since she wasn't wired to spend 24/7 on the home.  Yes we probably could have gotten relief had my mom chosen not to work, but like Quill said, it wasn't in our culture to choose that when there was another way.

And no, I'm not annoyed when kids get health care, but my mom had to make payments for 12 years on the bill for my brother's birth.  We only went to the doctor if it was absolutely necessary.  Which is fine, but I can understand why someone would feel some unfairness about the fact that if you don't work, you can have these foo foo things called "well visits" as well as going in every time a kid has a runny nose, but if you are working class, forget it.

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