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Bluegoat

Does this seem off to you - hs FB group

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2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 She isn't saying "This isn't the right place to say that now" to the kid, nor is she mentioning it to the parents who are there.  She is telling them they/their kid needs to have a particular view on homosexuality - on a board that is open to any homeschooler in the province.

 

She doesn't even know for sure what the kid said, right? And what the context was in which he said it? 

What if he was telling someone else that he heard his cousin say "being gay is bad" and he told his cousin "nuh uh"? 

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3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think the problem is she is making this assumption that the ideas all parents should have and teach their kids are the same as her ideas on this topic.  She isn't saying "This isn't the right place to say that now" to the kid, nor is she mentioning it to the parents who are there.  She is telling them they/their kid needs to have a particular view on homosexuality - on a board that is open to any homeschooler in the province.  THe message isn't just about good group interaction, she is bringing in a lot more about her ideas than that, or there would have been no need for a four paragraph FB post. She's going to tell these kids not that they are being rude, but that their view of homosexuality is wrong.  I think that is seriously overstepping with the kids of random people you don't know, whether or not you think their view is wrong.  It's very similar to telling other people's kids that if they support gay marriage or something similar they could go to Hell, it's way overstepping bounds, not to mention you really don't know enough about the people you are talking to to address them in that way.  (As it happens, I asked if she would mind others talking to her kids that way, and she said it would be fine, but it didn't occur to her that they might be parents who objected to her kids support of gay rights - that idea seemed to flummox her a little.)

The bullying is expecting young kids to be able to respond to an adult asking them to defend ideas they are not developmentally capable of defending yet.  It is possible that some of these kids have learned at home that "being gay" is a sin - whatever that means to someone who is 8 or 10.  When some adult they barely know is suddenly telling them that is wrong, it puts that child in a difficult position - what are they supposed to do?  Argue with her and be disrespectful?  They likely don't really understand the ideas involved anyway, but given that is what they have been taught, they may feel like they really have to stand up for it.  Against an adult.

I take a pretty high view of kids as persons who can ultimately make their own moral decisions - I even make myself stand back a little to make sure my own kids have room to do this.  And a big part of that is because as an adult, I could really overwhelm their capacities when they are younger and to me that is the essence of intellectual bullying - they need to have room to grow and learn and contemplate these things.   Confronting kids I don't know would be just as bad.  

 

I think without knowing exactly what was said, it's very hard for us to read more into it than the general idea of "we don't say that here and I will correct your child if need be".

I also think that parents really need to reinforce the difference between "this is God's teaching for US" and "this is how you need to view the world".  And I think that you wouldn't be out of line in helping the OP in your group clarify that if it came to it.

But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue.

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13 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

I feel like I'm speaking in dolphin, not human, half the time these days since so many people I encounter can't make heads or tails of what comes out of my mouth, though it seems pretty straightforward to me. On every single thing (even dumb stuff, not necessarily political opinions), there are two choices now, and anything less than emphatic agreement with one choice means you're on the other side. IRL probably even more so than online, but I've got very smart online friends ?  

 "Yeah, "oh sh!t." Took a hard, hard, violent fall. Kind of pinballed down. Hit a lot of railings, broke a lot of sh!t. I'm not going to say I survived, I'm going to say I thrived. I met a dolphin down there. And I swear to God, that dolphin looked not at me, but into my soul, into my g--d--n soul, Annie. And he said, "I'm saving you Megan." Not with his mouth, but he said it, I'm assuming, telepathically. "

/Bridesmaids

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19 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 "Yeah, "oh sh!t." Took a hard, hard, violent fall. Kind of pinballed down. Hit a lot of railings, broke a lot of sh!t. I'm not going to say I survived, I'm going to say I thrived. I met a dolphin down there. And I swear to God, that dolphin looked not at me, but into my soul, into my g--d--n soul, Annie. And he said, "I'm saving you Megan." Not with his mouth, but he said it, I'm assuming, telepathically. "

/Bridesmaids

I saw this in the little preview in the thread list and thought "oh my, this thread has certainly taken a turn." I'm both relieved and disappointed that this is a movie quote. 

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10 minutes ago, mellifera33 said:

I saw this in the little preview in the thread list and thought "oh my, this thread has certainly taken a turn." I'm both relieved and disappointed that this is a movie quote. 

 

One of my girlfriends said I have a movie quote for any occasion. :lol:

i see a phrase and sometimes a quote or scene just pops into my head. 

I'm embarrassed at how hard I laughed at Bridesmaids...it was so raunchy. And I can't believe it came out in 2011!!!

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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:


But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue.

Are you perhaps in favor of teaching children to hate people who have a different opinion from them on a political or moral matter?

Of encouraging people to shut children down if they express an opinion on a political or moral matter that is different from the current ascendant progressive view?

What does "pushback" against opinions that differ from yours look like to the person being pushed back?

The word "hate" falls quick and easy from some lips these days.

Edited by maize
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1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

 On every single thing (even dumb stuff, not necessarily political opinions), there are two choices now, and anything less than emphatic agreement with one choice means you're on the other side. IRL probably even more so than online, but I've got very smart online friends ?  

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

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3 minutes ago, Garga said:

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

I've encountered this too--it's so preposterous the way it plays out that it is kind of hilarious.

Liberals think I'm a right wing extremist and conservatives think I'm a libtard.

It's like we've lost the ability to think in anything except black and white categories.

Edited by maize
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1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

  

I am actually a little disturbed by the lack of any other pushback - not only from evangelicals but I know there is also a Catholic and Orthodox community  - who I am sure would not want their kids to say gays are bad, but also would not like the assumption that they must otherwise be ok with the standard progressive secular position.  Maybe though they were wiser than me and just figured since it wouldn't likely affect their kids, they'd keep quiet.  I do wonder if the evangelicals might be inclined to think it's all the more reason to operate separately.

I would have been very unlikely to respond for several reasons.

1) The post was over the top IMO, so most likely this person is not "rational" the way I define it, at least not right now.  (We all have our moments - I have seen people go nuts on fb because of alcohol, meds, severe stress over a family crisis, and sometimes just because they are nuts.)

2) I try not to have those kinds of discussions where the people reading know my kids and may impact them in any way.

3) The chances of changing anyone's mind via fb posts is approximately zero anyway.

If I did comment, it would have been extremely mild.  I have seen how a normal rational comment can start a world war on the right battlefield.

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24 minutes ago, maize said:

Are you perhaps in favor of teaching children to hate people who have a different opinion from them on a political or moral matter?

Of encouraging people to shut children down if they express an opinion on a political or moral matter that is different from the current ascendant progressive view?

What does "pushback" against opinions that differ from yours look like to the person being pushed back?

The word "hate" falls quick and easy from some lips these days.

I don't understand how your questions follow my statement of "But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue."

If a political or moral opinion is held out of fear or oppression of a people, that is not a just political or moral opinion. It hurts people.  I would want my children to stand up against that.
If a political opinion or moral opinion is held and it does not hurt those around them, but either acts as a personal governance (and not a person foisting oppression on others) or is merely another way of looking at the world, I would want my children to step back and allow the same respect and weight to that as they would expect a person to respect their own.
By teaching my children that oppression deserves equal weight in the world, I would be teaching them to hate, and I would expect society to push back.

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2 hours ago, Garga said:

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

 

2 hours ago, maize said:

I've encountered this too--it's so preposterous the way it plays out that it is kind of hilarious.

Liberals think I'm a right wing extremist and conservatives think I'm a libtard.

It's like we've lost the ability to think in anything except black and white categories.

 

Exactly!  It's nuts!  It's assumed that the only two possible answers to a politically-charged comment are : A) preach it! or B) whatever coming out of my mouth is actually a pack of lies and my true views/reasoning are the most evil and nefarious that you can conceive of.  

A relative of mine decided a while back that I am an evil racist who hates brown people, because I said that I thought we should change immigration law to make it much easier for people to immigrate here legally, rather than ignoring immigration law.  The only possible positions in her mind were 100% agreement with her position or pure evil.

Edited by Michelle Conde
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4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't understand how your questions follow my statement of "But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue."

If a political or moral opinion is held out of fear or oppression of a people, that is not a just political or moral opinion. It hurts people.  I would want my children to stand up against that.
If a political opinion or moral opinion is held and it does not hurt those around them, but either acts as a personal governance (and not a person foisting oppression on others) or is merely another way of looking at the world, I would want my children to step back and allow the same respect and weight to that as they would expect a person to respect their own.
By teaching my children that oppression deserves equal weight in the world, I would be teaching them to hate, and I would expect society to push back.

 

But the principle here then is that it is ok for you to correct other people's kids on issues they consider morally important.  Great, I guess, if you are the one doing the correcting, if you feels the safety of the weight of public opinion.

Of course 50 years ago, your kid saying they are ok with gays might be the one other adults are correcting, in order to maintain moral standards, in order to avoid creating environment that promotes hurtful practices - and all with the weight of social opinion behind them.

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50 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Interesting.

If I chose to tackle a sub group specific issue - and this is a minor one, in the absence of any other information - in a large group context, obviously I'd go general and send out a reminder that the group is diverse in beliefs, and remind your kids to be polite to  and about others. 

I think if it needed tackling specifically - if, for example, it became a pattern of taunting or teasing -, it could have been done privately, parent to parent. 

If the parents were unresponsive, and the problem escalated, I'd take it to whomever ran the group. If I got no response there, I'd leave the group (if it actually appeared to be hostile to my concerns) and share the reason why when asked.

It rubs me up the wrong way for a parent to say they would 'gently correct' my elementary aged child. No, thank you. That's my job. Bring it to me if you have a problem. 

I don't think there is much of a critique of the concept of hate speech from a progressive pov, in which it is defined very broadly. 

So I am not surprised the mom called this out as hate speech. I am a bit suprised given the child was elementary aged, and it was hearsay.

In that same situation, I would have talked with my kids about how different families have different views, that in our family gay people are just like other people, that is it OK to politely respond, and role play some possible responses if it happens again. But what do I know ? I'm a heretic progressive, lol

 

 

Yeah, that is what I would likely do if I thought something needed to be said in a large group - though in this case I think I still would find that particular FB group a weird place to do it.  It seems a bit like, you had a problem in New York so you put out a message to the whole country.

There is something odd about the way people talk about hate speech - I am starting to think maybe people are really not talking about the same thing as I understand it to mean, or what it means in law.

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24 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But the principle here then is that it is ok for you to correct other people's kids on issues they consider morally important.  Great, I guess, if you are the one doing the correcting, if you feels the safety of the weight of public opinion.

Of course 50 years ago, your kid saying they are ok with gays might be the one other adults are correcting, in order to maintain moral standards, in order to avoid creating environment that promotes hurtful practices - and all with the weight of social opinion behind them.

No, the principle here is that is it okay for me to stop another person's kid when they are hurting members of the group.  Again, I have no issue with you living your life in a way that follows a specific moral path.  I take issue when people use that moral path for themselves as a way to oppress or hurt others.

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16 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

No, the principle here is that is it okay for me to stop another person's kid when they are hurting members of the group.  Again, I have no issue with you living your life in a way that follows a specific moral path.  I take issue when people use that moral path for themselves as a way to oppress or hurt others.

 

People always think that the reason for their way of life is because it is better for people, less hurtful in the ways that matter.  

In any case, correcting someone for an inappropriate social comment isn't really the same as telling them the problem is that their view is bigoted/hateful.

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On 11/11/2018 at 10:36 AM, OKBud said:

 

Oh, Lord, no! 

My kids have busted out with theee most insane things. That they could not have possibly heard at home.  One child, in particular, had really whack opinions about the elderly, for example.

No kidding.  

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6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

People always think that the reason for their way of life is because it is better for people, less hurtful in the ways that matter.  

In any case, correcting someone for an inappropriate social comment isn't really the same as telling them the problem is that their view is bigoted/hateful.

I can agree with you on the second statement.  I just didn't get that vibe from someone saying they will gently correct a kid.

On the first, I think many people have lost the personal aspect of beliefs and try to apply a one-size-fits-all.  And that's where we start fighting with each other, because no one likes to be forced into a belief system that doesn't work for them personally - especially when it's based on fear and oppression of who they are.  For example, it's fine for my Jewish friends to abstain from pork, and me to respect that and not serve pork products when I invite them to my home and do my best to not infringe on their personal beliefs.  It's not okay for them to force me to throw out my bacon and pork chops, picket the grocery store to make them remove bacon so no one else can buy it, and lobby to pass laws so that it's illegal to kill a pig.  Nor is it okay for me to trick them into eating my prosciutto stuffed chicken and say, "see, it didn't hurt you!" or to require every family to invest in 1/4 a pig, that they'll then receive at the end of the year.

So, yeah, when a personal belief system starts to hurt others, I think it's okay to step up and mention that to the person who is hurting those around them.

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My sister's elementary aged kid recently got in trouble in her new school for something she said.

She met a dwarf and observed, "you're awfully short to be in the 4th grade."

Of course all the adults about dropped dead.  Her mom got an earful.  But this is the kind of thing an innocent child may say when faced with something the parents didn't think to warn her about.  And there are too many things out there for parents to think of all of them before their kid encounters them.

A little grace goes a long way.

Edited by SKL
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12 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I can agree with you on the second statement.  I just didn't get that vibe from someone saying they will gently correct a kid.

On the first, I think many people have lost the personal aspect of beliefs and try to apply a one-size-fits-all.  And that's where we start fighting with each other, because no one likes to be forced into a belief system that doesn't work for them personally - especially when it's based on fear and oppression of who they are.  For example, it's fine for my Jewish friends to abstain from pork, and me to respect that and not serve pork products when I invite them to my home and do my best to not infringe on their personal beliefs.  It's not okay for them to force me to throw out my bacon and pork chops, picket the grocery store to make them remove bacon so no one else can buy it, and lobby to pass laws so that it's illegal to kill a pig.  Nor is it okay for me to trick them into eating my prosciutto stuffed chicken and say, "see, it didn't hurt you!" or to require every family to invest in 1/4 a pig, that they'll then receive at the end of the year.

So, yeah, when a personal belief system starts to hurt others, I think it's okay to step up and mention that to the person who is hurting those around them.

 

Jewish dietary laws aren't very comparable to most of the controversial social questions, which are about our universal beliefs about right conduct and how to live a good life.  

In any case, a young kid who says something out of place in either instance is hardly comparable to an adult making the same error.  

Edited by Bluegoat
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On 11/10/2018 at 12:41 PM, Bluegoat said:

So, this lady on the homeschool org FB group made a post last night, and it really rubs me the wrong way, even though I also would not have been crazy about the comment that prompted it.  People here at WTM have a variety of views but are pretty rational (maybe unlike FB!), I am curious if this is a widespread difference of opinion thing or what.  I'll maybe lay out what happened before saying what in particular rubbed me the wrong way.  (Though I already said in the discussion, which I may regret...)

So, apparently this happened at some sort of homeschooling event.  HS events here are quite mixed generally, you have eclectic people, evangelicals, lots of secular types, lots of unschoolers.  So a wide variety of views on various topics.  People seem to make this work for many activities.

Apparently some kid, elementary school aged, said some sort of comment in passing to her kid about gays being bad.  It seems to be unclear what this kid really meant by that, though my guess is it's some version or interpretation of something heard at home - who knows how accurately understood.  The implication from the woman was that this was an evangelical kid though I am not sure if that is known fact or a guess.  

So, she laid out that this had happened, and wrote a bit about how they teach their kids to be allies and her kids were shocked but are ok, and that she doesn't want anyone to be made by a comment like this to be made to feel excluded or uncomfortable.  She then said something like "fair warning, everyone, if I hear any comments like this in the future I will be gently address it with the kid, we won't stand up for hate."

Subsequently all but one response post was completely right-on agreement, at least 20.  So that seems pretty complete agreement, except that I know there are likely a lot of people that didn't say anything, and I am am not sure the mom knows that.  It also became quite clear that she considers hate in a fairly broad way - she'd not differentiate, for example, a simple evangelical view from a Catholic view - I don't think she knows there is a difference.  (Obviously, this kids comment wasn't really at that level either way, and who knows what the parent's view is.)

 

Thoughts?



Well, I'm not entirely certain what you're asking?  Like, what if it was your kid who was approached by a mom confronting a viewpoint?
I'm not certain it's acceptable that a mom "confront" a kid.  If the kid was a teen, it would be okay, IMO, to say, "This is what we teach in our home...."  ETA - the "in our home" comment is not confrontational - it's sharing a viewpoint.  If the mom was hotheaded and confronting a minor and was "confrontational" about impressing her viewpoint (in any direction) yes, that would be inappropriate, IMO.

That said, surely the mother realizes there is a portion of the homeschool community, not a small percentage either, who adhere to a very specific belief in that homosexuality is unacceptable in the evangelical realm?  Just as the evangelical family must surely realize there is a not small percentage of the world that believes that homosexuality is completely and totally acceptable.  It would be very odd for anyone on either side to not realize the other exists and will, especially as homeschool families who teach their kids, instill those same beliefs into those children.  Now, that would be odd.

Edited by BlsdMama
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56 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Jewish dietary laws aren't very comparable to most of the controversial social questions, which are about our universal beliefs about right conduct and how to live a good life.  

In any case, a young kid who says something out of place in either instance is hardly comparable to an adult making the same error.  

I honestly don't see the difference.

I'm concerned, though, by the thought that one has a moral right to infringe upon how others live, especially when people are living peacefully and equally.  I don't think there is any mandate that I know of that requires one to force others to adhere to a personal code of conduct UNLESS it hurts those around them not to - and truly hurt in this world, not some thought of something in an afterlife.  I'm pretty sure that all codes of conduct I know of talk about living that code personally and not treating people as less than, making that a more important part of peaceful living than trying to make others follow your specific moral code, especially if you try to make a moral issue trump fact and evidence.

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54 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I honestly don't see the difference.

I'm concerned, though, by the thought that one has a moral right to infringe upon how others live, especially when people are living peacefully and equally.  I don't think there is any mandate that I know of that requires one to force others to adhere to a personal code of conduct UNLESS it hurts those around them not to - and truly hurt in this world, not some thought of something in an afterlife.  I'm pretty sure that all codes of conduct I know of talk about living that code personally and not treating people as less than, making that a more important part of peaceful living than trying to make others follow your specific moral code, especially if you try to make a moral issue trump fact and evidence.

 

Jewish diet laws aren't meant for non-Jews.  Even for Jews, the reason for having them often aren't the same kind of thing as the reason for having, say, law about not killing or listening to your parents.  

Think about something more obscure maybe - usury is a good example, many religions, and some secular worldviews, tend to be anti-usury.  It's not just that is is some kind of annoying thing they think they are asked to follow to make them follow a rule.  The rule is meant to make for good lives for individuals living in the world, and healthy societies. The idea is that built-in systemic economic exploitation will degrade both the social fabric and negatively affect individuals within that society.  Christian views on sexuality fall into that kind of pattern, not the dietary-law kind of pattern.

In any case, this is kind of immaterial, except to say that if you accept the idea that parents can correct others' kids on these issues, it becomes the case that in any time and place where parents take it for granted that their view of sexuality is important for a healthy society, where that is normative, you will have parents saying these kinds of things to other peoples' kids.  

The kicker is that you may be the minority in your own opinion and what you are teaching your kids.  It doesn't matter that you think it's obvious that your views are right and also the most neutral - others feel the same way about their views.

None of what you've said addresses the problem either that you are confronting quite a young child about something that he may have been taught at home, and what the heck do you expect him to do with that?  

Why would you not just say a word to the parents, or say that it's not polite to call groups of people bad?   

 

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I agree with one of the previous posters about it being virtue signaling or just obtuse phrasing.  "we are shocked but ok"?  Fair warning? Just live life quietly and spread your message gently without feeling the need to tell the whole facebook that a kid made an unkind statement to another kid.  I still remember with shame the time I told a friend how sorry I was that our mutual friend was going to hell because she was Jewish. (that was what I had been taught, after all) . I hurt her when it got around to her, and I was rightfully ashamed.  But  I didn't have her parents coming after me  -- I learned through having hurt someone and having to make amends.  Kids are still learning, as are adults. 

Honestly? She sounds like a mom of young kids. I was much more judgmental when my kids were young. 

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20 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I don't know what it means in law in the US, or in Canada. 

Would be an interesting s/o to explore.

 

“Hate speech” does not have a legal definition in the U.S.  It is a social term, not a legal one.

I don’t know about Canada.  I would be interested if anyone else knows.

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3 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

“Hate speech” does not have a legal definition in the U.S.  It is a social term, not a legal one.

I don’t know about Canada.  I would be interested if anyone else knows.

 

Apparently Canada has a definition of hate propaganda, which seems to be the same idea.  But Wiki says that there isn't really a clear definition of hatred within the legislation itself.  It does look like definitions and such by judges have been for fairly strong statements involving things like genocide or destruction - but it does seem a bit odd to me that it isn't clearly defined.  It's not like it's obvious in itself.

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

I think in AU we have pretty strong hate speech laws (and we have no bill of rights, and nothing specifically protecting free speech, so make of that what you will), covering not only incitement, but public offense, insult, ridicule, contempt or intimidation on the basis of race and ethnicity (all states), religion, gender, sexual orientation, disability (not all states) with a mixture of civil and criminal responses varying by state. 

Defence can be argued on the grounds of:

  • artistic works,
  • academic, scientific or other purposes that are genuinely in the public interest,
  • fair and accurate reporting, or
  • fair comment that is an expression of genuine belief

Good luck arguing that last one at tribunal. There is no test for 'genuine belief' and any belief at any time can be deemed 'non genuine' so it's worthless. I think it's code for 'this is part of your religion', so it you have a religion you might be OK, but it leaves the non-religious out in the cold so far as holding genuine beliefs. People have used the artistic works exemption successfully.

(I personally think 'offend, insult, ridicule and contempt' are vast over-reach, and reject them on the basis that all societies need their truth telling fools, whose very job is public mockery and offense of the sacred cows of the time).

 

 

 

 

Wow.  Honestly I don't think I'd ever given it much thought or seen it spelled out, but that's a pretty intimidating and so completely at the mercy of the interpreter. 

 

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@StellaM Random history question- do you know if prior to "hate speech" specific laws in AU, were most of the speech limitations as far as law limited to perhaps more what I think of as civil laws like slander, libel, etc. or speaking out against the government? Or was is still codified as your post above, just without specifying certain groups as the target? Has one always had to tread so carefully, or is this a newer development?  (Hopefully that makes sense what I'm asking.)  

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On 11/10/2018 at 3:59 PM, StellaM said:

Elementary ? The kid is parroting what he hears at home.

 

S/O comment here: It always bothers me a little when people assume this is the case. I'm not jumping on you here, Stella, but my oldest taught me very early on (as a preschooler) that he was perfectly capable of forming his own opinions and stating them publicly, completely unrelated to anything he heard at home. I was always a little nervous that people would assume his opinions came from us. Still am, lol, and he's quite launched into adulthood.

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, it's alright, OKBud already pulled me up on this assumption and she/you are right.

I responded as I read through the thread, and felt a little silly after I saw several had already made that point.

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18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Oh, it's fine, it will stick in my head now not to do it again ?

 

In any case, it is a possibility and that is part of the reason for treading a little lightly, I think.

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