Curious - do your kids do their work independently?

[hollyhock2]

This has been brought up in a few recent threads and now I am curious. Do you have kids who are capable of being given a checklist and then going off and doing the majority of their school work on their own? I was under the impression that this was fairly common among homeschoolers but the talk about it recently has made me wonder. It probably has something to do with age (most 3rd graders aren't going to do this, I expect) and perhaps what kind of curriculum is used. Where does your family fall in terms of independent work? Is this not as common as I thought?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Even I need a teacher if learning a difficult subject. My 11th grader is across from me right now. She is doing her work independently in the sense that she doesn’t need me to nag her about each subject. But I just put down what I was doing to help her with her math. Some subjects or some lessons need more direct teaching. I think that it is actually wrong to let kids sink or swim even in the upper grades. 

[freesia]

Here's the thing--there isn't a simple answer to that.

I start keeping a plan book for my kids in around 2nd or 3rd grade.  At that time, we meet once or twice for instruction and they have independent work. Then they do history/science with me.  So, for example, we would do the math lesson and they would work the mixed practice on their own.  Some of my children would still need to do independent work in the same room with me. Some of them needed me close to work through certain assignments. Sometimes (in grammar for my third) he wanted to do them out loud, bc he has a hard time with it.  So, "independent work" didn't/doesn't look the same every day.

Over the years, more of their work is done independently.  By middle school, most history and science is read alone.  However, we have a weekly history discussion and a daily session to review what was covered in science  Literature discussions occur after the book is read, writing is often covered in a book (like Jump In) but work is reviewed daily (for chapter work) or after the rough draft is completed (or planning sheet for kids who struggle).  Different ones of my children have needed more or less writing support.Math is still taught daily at this level.

In high school, more work is done independently (or online).  I often still teach math daily (except years we use TT or have Dive for Calculus).  I check work daily--every single day (we do TT on paper not self-check)  History/lit are reading lists with regular discussions.  Science may be checked weekly.  Health is independent and self-taught.  Many classes are online.  Some electives are self-taught.  So, my thoughts on high school are this:  I have not found it healthy for my kids to work all alone every day. They need to have interaction with me (or an online teacher) about some of their subjects. They need classes where they have to discuss and hear other opinions in order to sharpen thinking skills.  They need to have someone checking their work daily (or weekly) and holding them accountable.  I have never seen it go well for a student to have to self-teach and do their work all alone in high school. Particularly if they have to check their own work. In every case the child became depressed, cheated at the work, lost motivation or felt lost.  That is just in my world I'm sure there are some kids who can do it.  The self-directed kids I know who thrived had parents discussing what they were learning with them regularly.

So, all my kids have checklists  All my kids could follow the checklists for a short period of time in an emergency, but never all year without my input.(And never before grade 4 for my girls and grade 7/8 for my boys.)

[hollyhock2]

20 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Assigning a child a chapter and written exercise , expecting them to do so and then come back to discuss is one thing. Handing them a packet to do and grade themselves or sticking them on an online assignment so that the parent can have zero involvement are two different views of independence.

 

True, the definition is important! I was more thinking along the lines of the first example above. You are still involved, you grade, you discuss, you help them figure out problems, but they can go do it on their own and then come see you at the end. I wasn't thinking about "sink or swim", as Jean put it. I don't agree with that either.

[SanDiegoMom]

I find my kids are naturally becoming independent in seventh grade. They needed more hand-holding in sixth, but we switched to the Kanban method for scheduling and we all stayed in one area and I kept them on track, and now they make checklists every day and then go off and come back depending on their mood.  I still keep track of the time -- one kid has no internal clock and dilly-dallys on everything.  The other just likes to hang out with me because it can be lonely. 

[8filltheheart]

I agree that it depends on how you define independently.

My k-2nd graders have no daily planners b/c I have found their learning to be too variable to generate any sort of plans that are worth my time.  They sit with me for every single subject that I determine as we go.

I start writing lesson plans when they are in 3rd grade.  Even so, with the exception of their silent reading (I assign about an hour of literature reading per day), elementary kids are sitting beside me while they work.  I am physically present and often grading their work as they go.  (Equally, I am sitting with an older sibling typically instructing or discussing with them while the younger student is working on math.)  I read science, history, and work with them on their grammar/writing assignments until they are in around 5th grade.

With my older kids, things are more variable. They do have assignments that they complete independently while I am working with another student, but I would not call their days "independent."  I am still daily engaged.  We are often reading literature together, watching TC lectures together, etc.  I sit with them or I am in the same room as them while they are doing math.  Like Jean described, we grade as they go and I stop what I am doing if they need help.   I actively teach writing.  We go through various writing program's essay examples and discuss the strengths/weaknesses of the examples.  They submit thesis statements and outlines prior to writing their essays.  I sit with them and evaluate their essays while we discuss areas that need revising and improving, etc.  They never just go off and complete their assignments on their own and turn them in later to be graded. The only classes completed independently are those courses taken DE or with an outside teacher.  (I have never been involved in my kids' outside classes.  Those I do expect them to be independent in completing, but outsourcing to those types of courses typically only encompasses a handful of courses over their 4 yrs of homeschooling high school.)

Edited November 7, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[rebcoola]

My 6th grader can check her list and do it all and it will get reasonably done but she hates it.

My 4th grader likes to work alone on stuff even Beast Academy but tends to forget and needs a lot of reminders of what needs to be done and will skip anything she doesn't understand or think is hard.  

 I don't plan for them to do work alone except assigned reading but its nice when they can just go ahead alone when someone's work takes longer or I'm sick or whatever.

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, I was thinking about your question a little more.  I think there is a distinct difference between "being able to work independently" bc they have a checklist and are capable of going off and completing the work on their own and whether or not that is the educational level you want your kids to achieve. 

I do have kids who are capable of being completely internally motivated and would go off and do whatever in their lesson planners on their own. But, that is not the type of education I want my children to receive.  I see that as a knowledge-based education. That is not why I homeschool.  I homeschool specifically b/c I want my kids have a different type of education. My goals are not checking off a to-do list.  My goals are not to simply check off a list of successfully accumulated knowledge.  My goals are to challenge them to be critical thinkers, analyze and independently articulate views, etc.  

Edited November 7, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

dp

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

FWIW, I was thinking about your question a little more.  I think there is a distinct difference between "being able to work independently" bc they have a checklist and are capable of going off and completing the work on their own and whether or not that is the educational level you want your kids to achieve. 

I do have kids who are capable of being completely internally motivated and would go off and do whatever in their lesson planners on their own. But, that is not the type of education I want my children to receive.  I see that as a knowledge-based education. That is not why I homeschool.  I homeschool specifically b/c I want my kids have a different type of education. My goals are not checking off a to-do list.  My goals are not to simply check off a list of successfully accumulated knowledge.  My goals are to challenge them to be critical thinkers, analyze and independently articulate views, etc.  

Yes.  This is what I was trying to say somehow in the mess I wrote.  I have 2 children who, at a young age, could take a checklist, work diligently through their list and complete all their work.  One of them prefers this.  However, I don't think that that is a good education.  I have 2 children for whom this would have been harder.  One is now in college doing well, one still has days he needs me to sit next to him as he does his math and grammar (he is in eighth grade). 

For the most part, my definition of independent work correlates with "homework" in school.  The lesson is taught, then you work independently or you read independently, then you write about or discuss (or both) with someone.  Only very occasional subjects are done without either component (health, in or home and a couple of senior year courses for my oldest because my energy was focused on college and honors acceptances).

[Jean in Newcastle]

I want to say something specifically about grading as you go.  There was a time with my oldest when I got behind in grading.  And it was a huge fail on my part.  He was doing the work off of his checklist.  Even with his EF problems he was still able to do that.  But I wasn't catching little errors immediately, which became big errors and once I finally got to the grading and discovered the problem we had to go back and reteach the material because following the checklist wasn't resulting in learning.  Even if I had been diligent in grading, If I had just given him his grade (which weren't awful, btw) and moved on without actually going over things with him, then he still wouldn't have learned.  And this is just in those classes like math which are a bit more cut and dried.  There are other subjects which really require discussion and deeper level thinking that requires more than simply keeping up on grading and catching any holes in understanding. 

[maize]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

FWIW, I was thinking about your question a little more.  I think there is a distinct difference between "being able to work independently" bc they have a checklist and are capable of going off and completing the work on their own and whether or not that is the educational level you want your kids to achieve. 

I do have kids who are capable of being completely internally motivated and would go off and do whatever in their lesson planners on their own. But, that is not the type of education I want my children to receive.  I see that as a knowledge-based education. That is not why I homeschool.  I homeschool specifically b/c I want my kids have a different type of education. My goals are not checking off a to-do list.  My goals are not to simply check off a list of successfully accumulated knowledge.  My goals are to challenge them to be critical thinkers, analyze and independently articulate views, etc.  

This is why I often wish you could come to my home and educate my kids 8!

[HomeAgain]

If i used work that was dumbed down/written to the child, yes, I have an 8yo who could and would do that.  But I think about whether or not that would be an acceptable substitute in a school setting (like ACE) and I would be horrified, so...........no.  The most I would do is either outsource to a different teacher and touch base periodically, or do bite-sized independence like scheduling a worksheet here and there that could be done on their own.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My dd does do a couple of electives pretty much totally independently.  By this I mean that she does her own research, assigns her own assignments and completes her own work.  These are electives:  Photography and Computer Coding.  I do not grade these as they are subjects that I considered unschooled.  Having said that, she regularly tells me about them and shows me her work.  She pushes herself to do well because these are specific interests that she has.  If I noticed that she wasn't doing anything for them, they would not make their way onto the transcript.  These are not subjects that I can teach.  She has outsourced "teachers" for these online - though they are not online classes where you sign up and pay and hand in your work.  Instead, she reads and watches online articles and videos that explain how to do the various assignments. 

[scbusf]

My 10 year old can do it. She is very introverted and quiet and LOVES having a checklist. She would seriously thrive having a checklist and going to a quiet spot to get everything done. My other kids can't do it, though.

[PeachyDoodle]

I guess it depends on what you mean by independent.

My newly-8yo doesn't do much of anything independently. I can get him started on some things and let him work while I throw in a load of laundry or something. Things like copywork or the review pages in his math book. Otherwise I'm at his elbow.

My 13yo is pretty independent. She reads on a college level and a large part of her curriculum involves reading and writing, both of which she does on her own. Like me, she prefers to learn by reading and thinking. We do have time set aside for discussing what she is reading each day, though. I guess that's where I do most of my teaching, but I'm more focused on helping her make connections than explaining the material. We also use that time to go through her math and science lessons and clarify anything she has trouble with. I have thought for a couple of years that she might be reaching a point where she would hit a wall and need to have more direct instruction (she's in algebra 2 and physics this year, both high school-level subjects), but so far she's rolling with it.

And yes, the recent threads do have me a little worried that I'm leaving her too much to her own devices, but it's clearly working for her. She knows that I am always available if at any point she needs help, and she asks when she does. I don't expect that this will be the course my ds takes; he needs things directly explained to him and multiple examples, along with plenty of time to process. DD is like a sponge who just soaks it all up from every direction. Like with most things, I think it varies greatly among families and even individual learners.

Edited November 7, 2018 by PeachyDoodle

[LMD]

17 minutes ago, maize said:

This is why I often wish you could come to my home and educate my kids 8!

I wish I could go to her house and be educated like one of her kids... ?

Also, no, I can't just give my kids a checklist. My oldest (13) does like to do things independently at the moment, but if I let her, she gets a surface level done. For some things that's enough - especially so I can work with the other children. For most things, it's not enough.

Thank you for this thread though, I was starting to slide into too much independance for her as a way of circumventing teen attitudes.

[Ausmumof3]

My oldest likes to have a checklist so he can keep going with his work but I still need to monitor what gets done in the checklist.  I also find it can be a trap where they try to negotiate everything away.  For example, with Singapore there is mental math exercises.  I could schedule them in the checklist but often the actual math lesson takes too long and I don’t want to do the mental math that day.  But then if it’s not on the checklist we have negotiations about to all the time.  There are extras with our program that would never get done if it was all purely checklist based.  By having a schedule for a certain amount of school time on the days we get through faster we do the extras.

I think there’s a huge difference between using a checklist as a tool to help the student keep focused and moving with their work, and expecting the checklist plus books to do the actual teaching.

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

This has been brought up in a few recent threads and now I am curious. Do you have kids who are capable of being given a checklist and then going off and doing the majority of their school work on their own? I was under the impression that this was fairly common among homeschoolers but the talk about it recently has made me wonder. It probably has something to do with age (most 3rd graders aren't going to do this, I expect) and perhaps what kind of curriculum is used. Where does your family fall in terms of independent work? Is this not as common as I thought?

 

Bwa-ha-ha 

 

No.  To an extent dd10 could do this, but I do need to check up on her.  Ds8, not at all.  Dd13 is at public school, I have to push her through homework every night, and piano too.

[MerryAtHope]

In 3rd grade, definitely not! As they got older, I found that they could do some things independently (I didn't have to ride them constantly to get their work done--though sometimes yes even that!), but they didn't just work from a list with no interaction ever. Now, could I, on a sick day or even a sick week, just turn my junior high and high schoolers over to their workboxes and have them do something for every subject without direction from me, sure. Or, could they do a lot of things independently here and there--sure. Did they go without me teaching, tutoring, correcting, walking through things, discussing etc...? No. 

Too much independence is disastrous. I remember my 5th grade son learning how to divide fractions one week when I was very sick. Took at least 2 weeks to unlearn the wrong way and reteach the right way after that! 

[8filltheheart]

35 minutes ago, maize said:

This is why I often wish you could come to my home and educate my kids 8!

My ds wishes the same thing! ?

Today, I indirectly received the feedback that encourages me to keep on doing what we do. My dd's French lit professor told her today that she is extremely impressed with her level of analysis and said she must have an incredibly strong literary background. 

[Ivey]

One of my sons was able to work through a course syllabus independently, coming to me for help like he would to an outside instructor, by his senior year of high school. Another got there by his sophomore year. They (and my 16yo who is now in public school) could follow a daily checklist much earlier (4th grade?), but we only used them when I was sick or unable to teach for whatever reason. 

[mumto2]

My oldest was quite independent as she got older but I always knew exactly how she was spending her time.  Read the papers, found the books she wanted.   I joked that I was her facilitator! We could have gone on happily for years.......

My son needed a more organized facilitator,  one who provided definite direction.  He had lists because he needed his tasks for the week in Black and White.  Honestly we did whatever was needed to keep the kid sort of on track.  He loved programming and spent hours.  Computers are his thing and has a degree to match.  Getting something like history done was a challenge.  He finally did the history Clep  exams to prove he knew it to an acceptable level. His high school was a definite working with the kid I had,  not my lofty plans.

The level of independence grew as the kids did.  We were still doing read alouds when dd entered high school so independance was totally by course.  I did give small bits of independence at a young age.  Essentially from the time they could read.  Things like read the directions for this section of the math worksheet and do the problems which I instantly checked.......if they had a problem we reread the directions together.  As they got older they did more independently.  For us math was our somewhat independent thing but my kids loved math and gobbled up as much as was provided.  They were also close enough in ability that they enjoyed it together.  

 

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

Do you have kids who are capable of being given a checklist and then going off and doing the majority of their school work on their own?

My dd worked from lists with support but not really the totally independent learner kind of thing you read about in some books. She has ADHD, and a level of structure and accountability was essential for her. 

My ds has ASD2 and requires everything custom, so not independent. I try to have short tasks and short lists he can do independently, because independent work is always a good skill. But for him, at age 10, independent work might be something like his morning routine (tidy bed, get dressed, pull-ups, sit-ups, etc.) or a worksheet while I go do something else. 

I remember reading about that independent by 4th grade thing in a book (Debra Bell? I forget, it was a LONG TIME AGO, lol) and I got there with dd and was like WHAT AM I DOING WRONG??? Sorry, but I just had to teach the kid in front of me, just like that person writing that book did.

[nixpix5]

My kids (9,7,7) know their weekly routine pretty well and have weekly planners. They independently go to their shelf in the a.m. and begin independent work and then I cycle through them to give lessons for the day over new material while the other two work independently. We do history, science and geography together but I would say their level of independence is pretty high in math and language arts. I am obviously still grading in the moment, explaining and teaching lessons. We also do alot of read aloud time. I learned how to hone those skills in a Montessori classroom though so I began homeschooling in a Montessori environment way which lends itself to a high level of autonomy, independence and choice.

[FairProspects]

Haha, that's hilarious. No, my kids are not capable of working independently. My 14 y.o. can maintain some independent practice for a short period of time *after* he has had direct instruction, examples, and teaching, but my 11 (12 next week) y.o. cannot do ANYTHING without me at his elbow. Both are 2E and have some executive function issues though.

I'm also a super involved teacher though. I'm often grading one kid's work while another kid is completing some kind of assignment. We do literature, analysis, and history work all together talking it through, and then the boys usually have to write something. They need my most direct attention during any kind of writing assignment.

Edited November 8, 2018 by FairProspects

[Lori D.]

6 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

True, the definition is important! I was more thinking along the lines of the first example above. You are still involved, you grade, you discuss, you help them figure out problems, but they can go do it on their own and then come see you at the end. I wasn't thinking about "sink or swim", as Jean put it. I don't agree with that either.

Using the bolded as the definition of "work independently"... I would say it heavily depends on the child's:
- general attitude (strong-willed / resistant children often need heavy supervision/interaction)
- level of maturity (capable or not of reading/understanding directions and self-teaching)
- interest in academics (a child who dislikes school in general is not apt to do well doing schoolwork independently)
- work preference (prefers to work with you or others nearby, or, prefers to take work to their room and work solo)
- plus how much the materials are set up for independent work (i.e. workbook-based or self-paced computer software vs. discussion-based)

Not to mention whether or not the child has LDs and/or poor executive function skills.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Lori D.

[teachermom2834]

My 10 yo dd is in 5th grade. She is an excellent and avid reader. She enjoys school and very happily works longer days than my other kids ever did. She often chooses to write out essay answers to questions I would allow her to answer orally because she actually wants to. She really is a dream student in many ways.

I say that not to brag but to preface the statement that she does not work independently. Even as eager and competent as she is that just isn’t how it goes at 10 yo (for us). We have “couch work” and “seat work”. 3/4 of our day is couch work we actively do together. The “seat work” is supposedly independent but what it means is she sits at the kitchen counter and works on written work while I do kitchen chores, stopping to help and even just to chat. The extent of her independent work is her writing her spelling list or filling out a map while I use the bathroom or make a phone call. I’m there asking what she is doing and keeping her on track.

My tenth grader is completely independent aside from being in the same room/ area of the house. Besides reading he doesn’t go off to his room. I ask him how and what he is doing frequently and I really am not actively engaged other than just being there. It still feels really important that I am there though. Sometimes he likes to show me what he is doing in math or chemistry. I often have no idea what he is talking about but he likes sharing with me.

I have two in college now so there was a time I had a bunch schooling at home and I did push them, expect them to work independently. They did to an extent but it just isn’t all it is cracked up to be. I’m in no hurry for my 5th grader to be independent. She gets more out of my constant involvement and we enjoy being together. She is getting a better education than the ones who worked more independently.

Catching mistakes immediately and having involved discussions are two big bonuses of homeschooling. I need to be right there for those things to happen.

[73349]

DS just this year (5th grade) starts his morning with some independent work and a checklist. I check his work, and we go on to our main subjects. His independent work is...

• a small chore (different each day, but things like putting out the recycling or starting his laundry in the washer)
• piano practice (He's beyond my knowledge of piano, so I can't really help; I just make sure I hear him playing.)
• knot-tying practice (using a phone app) or other memory work
• vocabulary
• a short math review sheet
• grammar (and TBH, he often wants/needs help with this)
• either a page of logic or some mechanics practice
• assigned reading.

I also don't supervise his typing practice, but that's later.

I teach directly and pretty much stay in the room, often at elbow, when he does

• spelling
• math
• science
• geography
• composition
• art.

I sit with him during his online Spanish lessons, too, and review the material with him on non-lesson days.

Really I would find it unacceptable if a school left my fifth-grader to teach himself those things, so I have no inclination to have him try them without me. There are a lot of components to providing an education: goal-setting, selecting materials and pacing, instruction, opportunities for practice, assessment, feedback and re-teaching... I don't feel comfortable leaving that much of the process to a curriculum provider. I see how it would create the risk for misunderstanding. (Just today, not in school, DS puzzled over a headline he saw on my computer, because he didn't know Sandwich is the name of a town in Massachusetts. I had to give him that background information so he could understand the sentence & not think it was about food. I'd expect that kind of thing to happen sometimes in school materials, too.)

Plus, the kid just likes company and conversation.

[alisoncooks]

We don't have checklists, but my 7th grader does several subjects independently. After we do history together, she does math (TT). After math, CLE reading (mostly independent but we talk about some things every now and then). She does EiW on her own, and reads her science text on her own. 

But we talk about each day's work before she goes off and does it. And I look over it when she's done. 

[mom2scouts]

There was a discussion about this on one of my homeschool FB groups. The OP was annoyed that her high school student wasn't like "other homeschooled teens" and able to be "self -taught and motivated" despite it only being his second year of homeschooling. The majority of the responses indicated that it's a rare teen who is able to take an assignment list and complete it with little help. I recently posted on the high school board about my teen working so slowly. Putting these two thoughts together made me realize that my teen needs much more scaffolding than I've been giving him. Today we started off differently than usual and I spent most of the morning in direct instruction time with him before sending him off to do a few things on his own while I checked and taught my younger child's lessons. I was pleasantly surprised by how productive ds was today. I think he will get to a more independent stage, but maybe leaving him to do most work on his own has left him bored, lonely, and distracted. 

[Wheres Toto]

Sort of.

I provide my kids with a weekly check-list of what to do.  I check it each weekend and they can come to me to ask for help.  I also sit down with them to go over anything they get wrong.  Usually it's only math that either happens.

This is ds's choice for how to do things.  He wants to do things on his own and only if he struggles, does he want to take the time to have me go over things with him.  IF he gets a bunch wrong, he is then willing to let me show him what to do.  Only enough for him to get it, then he doesn't want anymore help.  He has Aspergers and is gifted.

Dd is more likely to need help and is more willing to get help up-front, but still prefers to try things on her own first.

We have been homeschooling for 9 years and the kids have a firm understanding that it's not even remotely optional.  They aren't at all self-motivated, but they don't get their computer/electronics time if school hasn't been done, so they are motivated by that.

[Junie]

My older kids are very independent.

I give the kids assignment sheets on Monday.  I work with dd8 and dd10 through each of their subjects.

Dd12 takes her assignment sheet and comes to me if she needs help.  She usually only needs about 5 or 10 minutes of help each week.

Dd14 does the same.  She needs a little bit more help than dd12.  She needed quite a bit of individual help with algebra earlier in the year, but is doing most of it on her own now.  She struggles with high school science, especially when it involves formulas.

Dd16 makes her own assignment sheet and works completely independently.  She uses the Art Reed cds for math instruction.  She occasionally will come to me for help.

 

Ds18 is in college now and has adapted well.  He is used to figuring out how to solve his own problems and he also knows how to go to the professor for help when he needs it.  I did not do as well with these skills when I first went to college.  I was public schooled and spoon fed.  It took me a while to learn how to learn independently.  I wanted to make sure my kids had these skills before they went to college.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Junie

[Melissa in Australia]

No 

most of my children have differing degrees of dyslexia. I pushed pulled and dragged them through just about every subject until around the age of 16. Then they enrolled in tertiary studies and had to answer to someone else.

the twins have to have me sitting between them, giving gentle taps on the arm to help keep them focused. (Most probably FASD). It is a whole other level of assistance!  One even needs an alphabet and number chart right in front of them because they cannot remember what letters and numbers look like and have to ask what does a 5 look like again just to answer a simple math problem. We are currently trying listening to Mozart, fish oil, chewing gum and fidget objects all at the same time to help them work at kindergarten level. I am starting to think that they are not ever going to achieve independence in any form with anything in their life ever.

[Condessa]

I print off weekly assignment sheets for my kids each weekend and put them in the front of their binders for them, because they like to see what’s coming and check things off as they complete them, but they don’t do most of it independently.  

My first grader does math facts practice on xtramath, and his cello practice about 2/3rds of the time independently, and sometimes a handwriting page.  He will choose to work on his spelling semi-independently sometimes.  Math, phonics, grammar, and writing instruction are 100% teacher taught.

My 2nd/3rd grader is mildly dyslexic and super distractable.  She does her handwriting sentence independently, and brings it to show me when she’s done.  We’re trying to work towards that with xtramath facts practice, but often she will get distracted and let the time run out if I’m not right there keeping her on task.  She does do German without me, which is with a Skype tutor twice a week and using Duolingo practice three times a week.  Math, phonics, spelling, grammar, writing, and violin all need 100% involvement from me, and will for a long time, I think.

 My fourth grader will sometimes go ahead and do her “little subjects” on her own, but needs me touching base with her occasionally to make sure she’s staying on task.  These include handwriting, a page from her logic book, practicing her Latin vocabulary flash cards, spelling, and sometimes her grammar review sentence from Practice Town.  She does usually do her piano practice independently.  Grammar and writing instruction and Latin are 100% with me, Math is, too, on Singapore days.  When she is doing Beast Academy Online, she will sit in the room with me while I work with a sibling and ask help when she needs it, which might be only an occasional question or a whole section to go over together.

[Susan in TX]

I have always had my children work as independently as possible. I choose curriculum that facilitates independent learning. I spent the most time hands on teaching in 1st/2nd grade, but in my experience once a child can read independently, they can do their schoolwork independently. I give them their assignments and I  check their work and help with anything they don't understand. I am there to make sure they keep on task but I don't hover.  I have successfully graduated 7 children from homeschooling to public middle school or high school. They all did well. Three of them are in college, four have graduated and have careers they love.  I do not think that self-education is an inferior way to learn.

Susan in TX

[Jean in Newcastle]

10 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

I have always had my children work as independently as possible. I choose curriculum that facilitates independent learning. I spent the most time hands on teaching in 1st/2nd grade, but in my experience once a child can read independently, they can do their schoolwork independently. I give them their assignments and I  check their work and help with anything they don't understand. I am there to make sure they keep on task but I don't hover.  I have successfully graduated 7 children from homeschooling to public middle school or high school. They all did well. Three of them are in college, four have graduated and have careers they love.  I do not think that self-education is an inferior way to learn.

Susan in TX

Your definition of "independence" is the same definition as many of us are using for "involved homeschooling".  We give assignments.  We check their work.  And we help with anything they don't understand.  In my opinion - that is not the same as "self education".  I know that it is a semantics thing.  But there are people out there who don't check work.  And do not provide any help.  And those are the people who do their kids and homeschooling in general a big disservice because at that level it becomes educational neglect.  (Yes - I know that I am using strong words but my mama bear homeschooler comes out in defense for kids who want to learn and aren't given the opportunity.) 

[8filltheheart]

It also sounds like you only homeschooled through elementary school and perhaps middle school? Sothey did end up having teachers?

[Susan in TX]

5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

It also sounds like you only homeschooled through elementary school and perhaps middle school? Sothey did end up having teachers?

 

Yes. My older kids all went to public school. Two started in 8th grade, one in 10th, and the others in 9th grade. I am currently homeschooling my 8th child for high school and she does do some subjects independently (math with Teaching Textbooks, Biology with Apologia, and history) but she is also taking classes at a homeschool co-op. 

Susan in TX

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think the crux of the matter comes down to what individual kids need to be successful in their learning.  Some need more help than others.  And it isn't some kind of failure for them to need that!  And it isn't a bragging point if they don't.  It just "is", you know?

Also - and I realize that not everyone will agree with me, but I do think that there is a difference between what kids can manage to get by on and what is truly optimal.  I think for most us, me included, we can't always hit the optimal.  It might be due to all sorts of reasons including whether the child themselves is willing to be taught.  But I do think that I have done the best when I have done my best to reach for the optimal.  It means that I hit a lot higher in my goals and standards than when I am just going through the motions. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Jean in Newcastle
left out a word

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I think the crux of the matter comes down to what individual kids need to be successful in their learning.  Some need more help than others.  And it isn't some kind of failure for them to need that!  And it isn't a bragging point if they don't.  It just "is", you know?

Also - and I realize that not everyone will agree with me, but I do think that there is a difference between what kids can manage to get by on and what is truly optimal.  I think for most us, me included, we can't always hit the optimal.  It might be due to all sorts of reasons including whether the child themselves is willing to be taught.  But I do think that I have done the best when I have done my best reach for the optimal.  It means that I hit a lot higher in my goals and standards than when I am just going through the motions. 

I think all of our views are influenced by our individual purposes in educating our children. Is it only defined by successful learning or are there varied definitions that encompass more, the what's and whys in what we pursue as education?

Objectives of connecting disparate ideas, challenging understanding, questioning interpretation, solving complex problems require dynamic engagement.

Children can read and understand what they read within the context of what they read. But can they understand that what they read is limited by the context within which it was written  and understood without someone asking questions that challenge that contextual understanding?  Can they be challenged to see how "One may understand the cosmos, but never the ego; the self is more distant than any star," as Chesterton states?

We all have to define our own goals and our purpose behind homeschooling and what it takes to achieve those goals. Self-education cannot provide my children with what I want for them.

Edited November 9, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[homemommy83]

I grew up in a totally hands-off home environment.  Sink or swim and it was all on the student and my mother never once reminded me to do homework as she didn't care what I was doing as long as I made all As and kept her house clean.  My mother married again and we added 6 more children to our home, and while I and my oldest sister did extremely well under this structure, my other 2 siblings didn't and neither did any of the new siblings.  So my view of this is that some children whom are intrinsically motivated AND highly academic minded can do well, the other 90 percent of people who are lacking either motivation or natural academic bent are going to need a whole lot more direction and direct teaching.  At school there was always a teacher introducing new concepts so even if they are not naturally motivated than they are still being taught and this wasn't enough for 8 out 10 kids in our home growing up, as they needed tutored and my mother wasn't educated above 9th grade and it never crossed her mind to help as she believed education to be entirely independent.

As a homeschooling mother I feel every child benefits from some individualized tutoring daily as it shows the mother where the child really is in understanding, keeps the child accountable, and I personally believe direct instruction helps children reach their full potential.  My children do their work mostly independently AFTER I have tutored them.  I also love working with my older kids as it is bonding to laugh about "Fred" and allows me to stop and use a mastery based program when more instruction is needed vs. continuing on when they could really pause a moment..kwim.

Love you all,

Brenda

[homemommy83]

On 11/7/2018 at 9:34 PM, mom2scouts said:

I think he will get to a more independent stage, but maybe leaving him to do most work on his own has left him bored, lonely, and distracted. 

I think this is something not many people bring up and I do believe teenagers need more of your time as they are going through so many changes.  I believe all children can get lonely if there parent doesn't take time to talk and listen with them.  I am an adult and an introvert, and I still need to interact with the people around me; so going off for 5 hours alone daily is lonely for most people.

Brenda

[mom2scouts]

2 hours ago, homemommy83 said:

I think this is something not many people bring up and I do believe teenagers need more of your time as they are going through so many changes.  I believe all children can get lonely if there parent doesn't take time to talk and listen with them.  I am an adult and an introvert, and I still need to interact with the people around me; so going off for 5 hours alone daily is lonely for most people.

Brenda

I've never left him alone for hours, but he was in the next room and I popped in regularly to see how things were going or if he needed any help. Usually he'd say it was going fine or it was going slowly, but rarely asked for help. I think sometimes he doesn't even know how to ask for the help he needs. This week I've spent much more time talking about what I expect for each step of his work, sending him off to do that step, immediately checking, talking about what was done well and what needed to be improved, and then letting him finish it. I *thought* I was making myself available before, but this student needs more guidance and direct instruction. I can't imagine how far behind he'd be if I expected him to be totally self-taught!

[Meriwether]

My oldest does almost all of her work independently and has since she was very young. Her brother who is a year younger does almost all of his work with me. Different kids, different strengths, different needs, different desires. Ironically, given the other thread, Ds14 does do Chemistry independently. As in, I assign pages in the text and administer tests. I came home from an evening activity one night and asked how Chemistry was. He said it was difficult to understand. I asked him if he wanted me to go over it with him. He said, "No, I just read through it five times until I understood it." He can ask his sister who is also doing it independently. Ds12 and Dd8 do quite a bit independently, too. The reality is that I make myself available for school 8+ hours per day but I have 5 kids and there is only so much I can do. When they have a question, I help. It they need direct teaching, I teach. Otherwise, they do it themselves.

[homemommy83]

2 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I've never left him alone for hours, but he was in the next room and I popped in regularly to see how things were going or if he needed any help. Usually he'd say it was going fine or it was going slowly, but rarely asked for help. I think sometimes he doesn't even know how to ask for the help he needs. This week I've spent much more time talking about what I expect for each step of his work, sending him off to do that step, immediately checking, talking about what was done well and what needed to be improved, and then letting him finish it. I *thought* I was making myself available before, but this student needs more guidance and direct instruction. I can't imagine how far behind he'd be if I expected him to be totally self-taught!

Sweetheart I wasn't implying you did this at all, just that all of the early homeschool books insinuated this was how homeschooled kids worked in high school...like it was the norm...so those of us who find this does not fit our families begin to wonder what's wrong with my kiddo...kwim.  I was going into this as I don't think those books ever mention if these kids actually enjoy being entirely independent without discussions nor help with things that come up.  This forum is the last place that you would find lack of tutelage as the norm though, which is why I felt open enough to express my opinion that learning entirely independent sounds lonely to me.  Yes, they can read and write independent, but they need discussions and critique of that work and maths are best done tutored or through a program that does lengthy explanations.

 

With love, Brenda

[knitgrl]

6 hours ago, homemommy83 said:

As a homeschooling mother I feel every child benefits from some individualized tutoring daily as it shows the mother where the child really is in understanding, keeps the child accountable, and I personally believe direct instruction helps children reach their full potential.  My children do their work mostly independently AFTER I have tutored them.  I also love working with my older kids as it is bonding to laugh about "Fred" and allows me to stop and use a mastery based program when more instruction is needed vs. continuing on when they could really pause a moment..kwim.

I was starting to feel guilty because I am not at dd's side every minute of the day. We work through the day's math lesson together. We do state history together. I present new material for grammar and Latin with her. I work with her on narrations and writing them down. For all the worksheets that go along with these things, I give her an assignment book to check them off. If I can't check her work that day, I go over any mistakes with her the next day before she starts a new lesson or sheet in that subject. This child is motivated and likes worksheets. This system is working for her, though I am not naive enough to believe it will be how things shake down with her brother.

[homemommy83]

1 hour ago, knitgrl said:

I was starting to feel guilty because I am not at dd's side every minute of the day. We work through the day's math lesson together. We do state history together. I present new material for grammar and Latin with her. I work with her on narrations and writing them down. For all the worksheets that go along with these things, I give her an assignment book to check them off. If I can't check her work that day, I go over any mistakes with her the next day before she starts a new lesson or sheet in that subject. This child is motivated and likes worksheets. This system is working for her, though I am not naive enough to believe it will be how things shake down with her brother.

I believe in encouraging independence after one tutors and this sounds like exactly what you are doing...keep up the great work mom.  It is also good to understand that each child reaches independence at different ages, but encouraging it is healthy for both the them and the parent longterm especially for larger families.

 

You are doing great!

Brenda

[homemommy83]

On 11/8/2018 at 6:46 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I think the crux of the matter comes down to what individual kids need to be successful in their learning.  Some need more help than others.  And it isn't some kind of failure for them to need that!  And it isn't a bragging point if they don't.  It just "is", you know?

Also - and I realize that not everyone will agree with me, but I do think that there is a difference between what kids can manage to get by on and what is truly optimal.  I think for most us, me included, we can't always hit the optimal.  It might be due to all sorts of reasons including whether the child themselves is willing to be taught.  But I do think that I have done the best when I have done my best to reach for the optimal.  It means that I hit a lot higher in my goals and standards than when I am just going through the motions. 

Preaching a great truth ladies?.  I feel that in different seasons we go between checklist of basics with a family Bible time and readaloud...us right now as we are expecting a new baby in May next year?.  Once out of the first trimester aka next week adding a science study as a family using Considering God's Creation will be added as will more time in our individualized periods so I can evaluate not just their answers, but test each child in ability within each program they are doing and find what the actual focuses should be vs. just doing the next lesson...kwim.  I can also quit falling asleep after the second child is tutored...lol.  For example do we really need to do the entire unit on verbs or would the time be better spent on writing units.  I personally like using programs and finding their weaknesses and using them for that, but when I am pregnant I need to do just the next lesson for a few months...kwim.  It isn't my ideal, but it is my reality.

 

Thanks for your great advice to the hive,

Brenda

 

[Xahm]

This is interesting and helpful to read as my kids are small enough no one expects them to be independent. My mom, who has a weird prejudice against preschool, was recently talking about how crazy it was that a mutual acquaintance put one child in preschool so she could concentrate on homeschooling the older three, all of whom are elementary age. Mom made some comment about how the older children should be working more independently so the youngest wouldn't have to go to preschool. Mom never homeschooled, by the way. It'll be interesting to see how her opinions change as my kids get older. In a few years, I will have kids in much the same position as our mutual acquaintance, and it's not my goal to have third graders working all on their own. (I did defend the other mom, for the record, and changed the subject.)