Non-gendered kids

[Janie Grace]

Do you know anyone raising a child without assigning it a gender? I have a sibling who is doing this. Sibling is gay and lives in a very progressive part of the country. The child has female genitalia but my sibling and partner gave the child a name that could be either gender. They dress the child so that you wouldn't know she's a girl and keep her hair very short. They have been referring to the kid as "she" and "her" but suddenly have decided to use "they" (child just turned 3). The family is coming to visit soon and I'm sure we are all going to forget and offend them by using "she" because that's what we have been doing for 3 years. But we will try our best.

I'm trying to state this all as impassively as I can because I want to be sensitive. But I am really struggling. I agree that we shouldn't push kids into gender stereotypes, that there are lots of ways to be a boy or a girl, and that if a child persistently experiences being in the wrong body, I agree with lovingly facilitating transition. But to not even allow a child a pronoun like everyone else? This kid is in a preschool of boys and girls and isn't allowed to be either? How is that good? (Although given the demographic, maybe there are other "they"s.) My sibling thinks that by age 4 or 5, the child will tell the parents what gender they are. Can a young child really just "pick"? This feels like a weird social experiment. 

I am sorry if this offends you. I am really just wrestling through this. I love my niece more that I can say (I guess I am supposed to use "nibling" now, not niece) and I just fear for what the fallout of this will be. I'm frustrated with what feels like pushing extreme beliefs on a child, and I am worried that the kid will grow up confused and isolated. ?

ETA: I am evaluating my feelings more and I think part of my struggle is sadness at how this makes us feel all the more divergent in our thinking/choices/world views. I love this sibling so much but each year that goes by makes me feel like we are from different planets. And yet we get closer in some ways. I guess I'm afraid this "they not she" thing will drive a wedge because I won't remember and don't understand. Of course I would never argue it with my sibling; their family, their rules. It just makes me sad the way that seeing extreme legalism (girls may not go to college) on the other side of the family does. But I know we are all trying our best... 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Janie Grace

[Scarlett]

I know we have a beloved boardie with a child who struggles with this.  So people are afraid they will offend.  I admit I do not understand any of it.  I mean I do understand that some people really FEEL they were born with the wrong gender....but I can't understand trying to let a child decide.  I do think it is a huge social experiment that is likely to go horribly wrong.

[Guest]

I don’t know anyone doing this but I am aware that people do it once in a while. I do also have a transgender family member but IMO this is not in the same category. I know there was (at least) one member on here who was raising a child androgenously, but, unless the member changed names, I don’t think they are here still. 

I would also not want to be hurtful towards anyone who lives with different understandings/beliefs about gender and sexuality. IMO, though, feeling a sense of gender identity happens from early on in a child’s life; it is a healthy and biologically normal phase of development. Gender dysphoria is itself identified as “a disorder”. It is normal for a child, from an early age, to identify with a gender and it is one of the earliest identifiers that a child embraces as part of developing personhood. Gender confusion or dysphoria is not something society/parents should provoke in a child, which is what I expect would be likely with a child being raised in the manner you describe. 

I would be sad for my sibling’s child. 

[Innisfree]

I am far from being really personally experienced with this. My only experience is in the case of one child who was in various extracurricular activities with my kids. The child had a gender-neutral name and wore clothes and hair which would typically be seen as very masculine or very feminine interchangeably, apparently as the child chose. I had no inside knowledge, but wondered if there was an intersex situation, because a sibling was dressed in gender-typical clothes.  Instead of pronouns, people just used the child's name. The child always seemed happy and fully involved in activities as far as I could see; other kids did not appear to single that child out in any particular way, but then the situations I observed were well supervised. I've lost contact with them in recent years, but my feeling was always that the parents were handling a potentially very difficult situation with grace and respect for their child.

The situation you describe is different from my guess above, but I mention it simply to show that a child may experience having an undefined gender without harm, depending on the care taken by those around them.

Editing to add that I'd assume, in the case you describe, the child would probably express a preference fairly soon.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Innisfree

[Twolittleboys]

I can totally understand your concern but hopefully, the child will "pick" one way or the other soon? It sounds like that would not be discouraged and especially if the child does experience a sense of isolation compared to the other kids it seems likely that soon a decision will be made? If so, I don't think it will really matter too much in the long term. Hope it works out for your family.

[prairiewindmomma]

I have friends whose children use “they” in reference to themselves—a bit of a different situation in that it is the child’s own choice.

I think in terms of discussion about how to handle conversation and the fear of offense about messing up—do the best you can. For myself, I just always refer to the child in conversation by their first name whenever possible and consciously think “they” when I have to use a pronoun. I think it is about intent—love the people, try to show it in the language you use—but if the love is showing through, slips in language are more easily overlooked.

Odds are the child will choose a preferred pronoun and be able to express their wishes about it very soon anyway.... 

[Innisfree]

47 minutes ago, Janie Grace said:

I think part of my struggle is sadness at how this makes us feel all the more divergent in our thinking/choices/world views. I love this sibling so much but each year that goes by makes me feel like we are from different planets.

Thinking more about this...

I think many of us are diverging today not just in "thinking/choices/world views" but in our experiences.

[Drat, now the italic function won't shut off! But to continue...]

I think the experiences often come first. You say your sibling is gay. My guess is that their experiences have been very different from yours, and perhaps even more different from those of the relatives who won't let their girls attend college. Our society has become so fragmented in so many ways. Location, education, friends, careers, all bring such different influences.

Since you're struggling with this, and since you love your sibling and their child very much, maybe it would help you bridge that divide to ask them, openly and non judgementally, about the experiences that influenced their decision about their child's gender.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Also, 'nibling' gives me the rage. I wouldn't use it, just on the basis of aesthetics alone. If you feel you need to avoid 'niece' - for example, if you are introducing her to a friend - you can instead say 'this is Jane, my sisters child'. This meets the requirements that girl is verboten, and lets people know how she is related to you.

Yes, this is how I identify my sister’s child. I don’t say niece or nephew; I say “my sister’s child.” 

[maize]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Generally speaking, this sort of thing doesn't really bother me.  Gender neutral names, hairstyles, etc, no big deal.  

 

But, and maybe my gripe is more with language...or not...I dunno...but the use of "they" in reference to a singular individual confuses ME, I am sure it would confuse the heck out of toddlers and preschoolers.  We DO have a gender neutral word....it.  I understand exactly why people are reluctant to use the word it.  But maybe that means coming up with new language rather than using "they" for a singular individual.   

I use they frequently, usually for situations where no gender is specified (i.e. if a student doesn't want to participate in the school play they can opt out). It is way less cumbersome than he/she for instance, and I prefer it to assuming a sex.

Language can evolve. The word "you" used to be used as the plural second person or formal singular second person pronoun, but when we dropped thou we adjusted just fine to using you as singular and informal.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

It is normal for a child, from an early age, to identify with a gender and it is one of the earliest identifiers that a child embraces as part of developing personhood. Gender confusion or dysphoria is not something society/parents should provoke in a child, which is what I expect would be likely with a child being raised in the manner you describe. 

 

That would concern me also. If it comes up, deal with it.  But what OP is describing is almost like assuming there will be a dysphoria.

[SKL]

I think it would be very confusing to refer to an individual as "they," especially when everyone else is a he or she.  It reminds me of the book "a child called It."  It seems very othering.

I would try to use the child's own name or a pet name such as "my chookie" as much as possible. 

If the parents are going to get offended by you calling a person "she" when that person has always been "she" to you, then honestly that is their problem.  If it's a big problem for them, then you may indeed lose touch with your sibling's child.  I would hope they would be understanding that most people can't just essentially adopt a new language on demand.

[maize]

23 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Sure, language can evolve.  I prefer that in this particular instance it evolve with a NEW word rather than changing the meaning of the current word (and for something like you describe, I would probably say something like "any student who doesn't want to participate may opt out" and avoid that sort of confusion.

 

I also prefer that language not evolve to use words like "nibling" to refer to a sibling's child.  It kind leaves me an impression of nibbling on a child like the witch in Hansel and Gretel lol.

Language evolving isn't usually a directed or chosen process, it typically happens quite organically. They as a gender or sex neutral singular follows that pattern--people have been using it for a long time (despite the protests of proscriptive grammarians).

Its use as an alternative to he or she for a specific individual whose sex is known is newer.

[maize]

According to this singular they has been around since the 14th century at least.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

[Ailaena]

I appreciate that you are being open-minded about this, and I appreciate that you are willing to be respectful to your sister by trying to use the pronouns that they have asked you to use.  

I am somewhat involved in the trans community, in a somewhat progressive area, and I do not know one, single transgendered parent who agrees with what your sister is doing.  I was very surprised.  They all seem to agree that most people are cis, and until told otherwise, there is no harm in using typical pronouns.  

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Pet names are a good idea. 

I call my nephew all kinds of affectionate names; I could definitely get away with rarely using his name over the course of a family visit. 

Honestly, it is difficult for me to use different pronouns with my sister’s kid. I most often phrase sentences in ways that avoid pronouns, or sometimes I can collectively say, “your kids”. I also say, “Hi, guys!” when greeting them, but people don’t strictly use that term to mean males around here. It just means “the collective group of people.” 

[Rosie_0801]

28 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

ETA:  My brain is breaking at the idea of trying to explain "no, honey, they are/is the pizza people/person" lol

 

And yet that's probably easier, since *person* is what your little one is seeing.

[Carrie12345]

I'm not... ANTI non-gender exactly, but I'd wonder how that would work out outside of an insulated community.  I'm around boys with long hair and girls with short hair who are misgendered by acquaintances. (Just saw it happen today. It's also happened to my own kids when they were young.)  I'm also around trans kids who are misgendered. It's uncomfortable for all of them.  So I'd be curious as to how a "non-gendered" child would feel about other people (known or strangers) using, as they often will, regardless of intention, EITHER gender pronoun, "right" or "wrong".

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

We are seeing people, but for very good evolutionary reasons, we also see sex. 

We see female people, and we see male people. 

It's pretty normal for little kids to start to make the distinction between two classes of people. That is species survival info.

Unlike many, I don't think that obscuring sex in the language, or making it somehow declasse to observe, does anything to challenge restrictive gender roles or sexism.

 

 

Yes, I know this. But I have also dealt with a child with the same pronoun issues as the pp. Making life easier for and with a small child with syntax errors is always going to seem more urgent to me than my views on language and sexism in general society.

[City Mouse]

 I watched this documentary on YouTube earlier this summer about families who are raising kids without gender. While not in the US, I thought it was interesting.

https://youtu.be/4sPj8HhbwHs

 

[Joker]

I've never met anyone that does that from birth or at such a young age. I have a transgender son and I wouldn't do that if I had another baby. 

 

As far as using the word they in general and with older kids/people - it's become very easy for me to do. I've met many transgender and non binary teens and young adults over the past few years and they has honestly become my default. They all let me know what they prefer. Also, ds was just commenting to us last weekend that not one person has just assumed his pronouns since he's been at college. There are more than 50K students from all over and the school is in the Midwest but every single person he's come in contact with has used they or just asked what pronoun he prefers. No one has just assumed. It's the first place he's ever been where that's happened and I, for one, hope to see more of it. It's really not that big of a deal for me to make sure of something like pronouns since I know it can mean a lot to someone.

[katilac]

It appears sudden to YOU, a person who lives in a different area and isn't raising the child. It may be sudden, or it may have been brewing for specific reasons you aren't aware of. We can't know. Either way, it's their decision to make. 

Sure, avoid pronouns if you wish. I do disagree with StellaM about the use of they as being "othering" - at least in a progressive city in America with young people. I vehemently disagree that it's at all reminiscent of A Child Called It. Mistakenly or not, they are trying to offer the child autonomy and respect, not dehumanize them. And about your sense of the child "not being allowed" a pronoun; they is, of course, a pronoun, one that is quite often used in the singular (at least in the states). If classmates give this kid trouble, they can let it drop or not, at their own preference. 

If you're making a good faith effort, I doubt your brother freaks out about the occasional mistake and lets it drive a wedge between you. If you only make a token effort and say stuff like, I just can't keep all this crazy new stuff straight! that's a different story. If your brother gets angry about an honest slipup, that's on him. However, I've made the switch for people I don't see or talk to very often, and it's honestly not all that hard. It's just like when kids get a new nickname or want to ditch an old one, which happens all the time. 

I haven't tried to raise my kids non-gendered, but I have seen a few articles about it. One thing I did do was not bother returning the 'boy' clothes when my girls were babies, and the difference in reactions was crazy!  My 'boys' were often called strong while they were just sitting there, even before they could walk and talk, and other adjectives that described traits or personality. My girls were called pretty and other adjectives that referred to appearance. When my 'boys' fussed, they were angry or stubborn or all boy (my personal favorite, lol). When my girls fussed, they were sad or poor little things. It was nuts, and these were babies. I can certainly see the attraction of raising your child gender-neutral.

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Sure, language can evolve.  I prefer that in this particular instance it evolve with a NEW word rather than changing the meaning of the current word

I also prefer that language not evolve to use words like "nibling" to refer to a sibling's child.  It kind leaves me an impression of nibbling on a child like the witch in Hansel and Gretel lol.

 

That's not how the evolution of language works. English cares not about your preferences, lol. People and groups have tried to come up with and use new pronouns, but they have never caught on. Language is going to do what it wants to do, it's not something we get to decide on. As a side note, people who did make the attempt were usually met with extreme derision, if not outright hostility. 

And I can't be the only one who thinks niblings is cute! I have seven niblings and five great-niblings, and I might have to use this. 

 

[katilac]

 

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

 stems from the fact that my child with ASD still mixes up all these words up.  She will walk up to a family and point to the little boy and say "hey, whats her name?"  To which I respond "that's a little boy, so do you say "her" name or "his" name."  Or she will point to the girl wearing the Dominos Pizza hat and say "Hey!  He's the pizza man!"  ETA:  My brain is breaking at the idea of trying to explain "no, honey, they are/is the pizza people/person" lol

 

It is definitely past time to quit presenting gender appearance and corresponding pronouns as absolutes. First of all, you could be wrong, lol. We have a little boy in our homeschool group who is always taken for a girl (he has long hair and wears plain shirts). A boardie posted recently about their teen girl being mistaken for a boy. Certainly strangers in ill-fitting uniforms can be hard to distinguish. 

If she walks up to what you think is a little boy and asks, "What's her name?" you simply reply with their name or "I don't know their name." 

"Hey, the pizza man!" doesn't even need to be addressed in the moment. I'm sure the pizza delivery person cares not! But certainly you yourself could start using pizza person, mail carrier, police officer, and firefighter on the daily. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by katilac

[maize]

47 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

We are seeing people, but for very good evolutionary reasons, we also see sex. 

We see female people, and we see male people. 

It's pretty normal for little kids to start to make the distinction between two classes of people. That is species survival info.

Unlike many, I don't think that obscuring sex in the language, or making it somehow declasse to observe, does anything to challenge restrictive gender roles or sexism.

 

I agree with you that sex is a fundamental category, one of the most fundamental we as a very categorizing species make.

And that confusing young children needlessly over pronouns in a language that uses gendered pronouns is silly.

I don't think gendered pronouns are a human necessity, there are widely spoken languages that do not use separate words for he and she (Chinese, for instance, uses ta as a universal third person singular pronoun) and children do not grow up confused about sex or gender because of it. But English does employ gendered pronouns so yeah...on the whole I think children grow up most comfortably when solidly grounded in their own language and culture.

I think that people who insist that "they" cannot or should not be singular (which is what led me to comment) fail to understand the beautiful messiness of language, because "they" in English is most definitely used as singular in a variety of contexts by native speakers.

(I also have a six year old who hasn't gotten the hang of he and she yet so I understand that perspective as well.)

Edited October 25, 2018 by maize

[katilac]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

So how do we apply that to ASD and the language issues that are often major factors that are part of the diagnosis?  

 

The same way you apply anything else that is not black and white, which I'm guessing involves lots of time and repetition. The increasing use of "they" would seem to be a great improvement for those who struggle with pronouns! One thing to remember that applies to all people. "What's their name?" solves your problem. 

[maize]

Re: they vs. it:

"It" is dehumanizing because we use it primarily for inanimate objects, sometimes for animals, never for humans.

They is used for humans just as comfortably as he and she are.

[Farrar]

Having had a cis son who has always identified as male (and, at this point, I'm pretty sure always will) but who was mis-gendered almost DAILY as female from about age 3-11 leaves me shaking my head at the idea that everyone "sees sex." Um, sure ya do. Keep on telling yourself that, folks.

Fwiw, we raised our kids with no presumption of sexual orientation. And I'm almost there in terms of the them/them pronouns and when you know people who use them, it does eventually become natural, because that is basically how language works - the more others around you use a term, the more you use, the more it just happens. But I cannot imagine doing what's described in the OP for a whole host of reasons.

[catz]

Is it possible that the child is expressing a preference?  Otherwise I don't really understand at all the choice to change pronouns for a 3 year old.  And sometimes children this young DO express a preference.  I have a friend with a child that transitioned at age 4.  It's been many years.  It was absolutely the right decision for that child but I'm not comfortable getting into someone else's story and circumstances.

We know many trans and gender fluid teens through young adults and are happy to count them as close friends.  It does sound like these parents are a bit over the top.  

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

That would concern me also. If it comes up, deal with it.  But what OP is describing is almost like assuming there will be a dysphoria.

It's like refusing to give a child a name, because hey, some people don't like their given name and end up changing to a new one. So, on the small chance our child will be one of those people, we just won't give him/her a name at all! he/she can pick one eventually!

Ridiculous. Plan for the 98 percent of what you think you will get, and adjust if you end up in the 2 percent. (or whatever percentage). 

[Frances]

52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

It's like refusing to give a child a name, because hey, some people don't like their given name and end up changing to a new one. So, on the small chance our child will be one of those people, we just won't give him/her a name at all! he/she can pick one eventually!

Ridiculous. Plan for the 98 percent of what you think you will get, and adjust if you end up in the 2 percent. (or whatever percentage). 

I knew a couple who did this, although I’m not sure of their reasons. As a preschooler, the child made a very memorable choice, but they let her go with it. 

[klmama]

56 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

It's like refusing to give a child a name, because hey, some people don't like their given name and end up changing to a new one. So, on the small chance our child will be one of those people, we just won't give him/her a name at all! he/she can pick one eventually!

Like Picabo Street.  Her parents called her "baby girl" for the first few years.  

[maize]

26 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I actually have no opinion on 'they' ?

There are times when it is quite natural to use it in the singular, and times when it isn't.

Given I believe everyone performs gender in a non-binary way to some extent - no-one conforms to every single stereotype for their sex - maybe we should all be 'they'. I don't think it will make a lot of difference - it's not as if language groups who don't have sexed pronouns have vanquished sexism, or destroyed gender stereotyping.

Yeah, I don't think pronouns have much impact on gender stereotype either.

Language in general doesn't seem particularly malleable to campaigned changes. Those all seem to peter out over time.

(if anyone wants a bunny trail into the world of complex pronouns, take a look at the list of Japanese personal pronouns here. Some of my favorite bits: pronouns mostly don't vary according to the sex of the reference person but they do vary significantly with the sex, age and status of the person speaking; also, the closest equivalents to English "he" and "she" are regularly used to mean "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" respectively. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns )

[DawnM]

I wish we had a singular non-gender pronoun.....referring to a singular person as "they" just bothers me so much on an English language basis.

I don't know how the schools are where you live, but will the school make the partners register "them" as a gender assigned person?  

Even in my son's very progressive college, you must room with the gender you genetalia to match in the dorms.   If you fully transition, you can go to the other dorm room.  (Sorry, I didn't know how else to put that.)  They are allowed to use whatever bathroom they want though.  

In our public schools here.  We can CALL you he if you are still biologically a she, but you have to use the bathroom of your current anatomical gender.  OR, you can use a single sex bathroom up in the nurse's office or library.

Edited October 26, 2018 by DawnM

[Joker]

19 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I wish we had a singular non-gender pronoun.....referring to a singular person as "they" just bothers me so much on an English language basis.

I don't know how the schools are where you live, but will the school make the partners register "them" as a gender assigned person?  

Even in my son's very progressive college, you must room with the gender you genetalia to match.  If you fully transition, you can go to the other dorm room.  (Sorry, I didn't know how else to put that.)

At my son's college you room with the gender you identify with and there is also coed rooming allowed if both parties agree. They have had zero problems that I know of in finding other students who have no problem with this. No one is forced to though and there are plenty of options for everyone. Of course, ds' college only knows he's transgender because he opted to tell them as all of his documents already show him as male. Ds has some friends who are non binary at college and they were just asked who they preferred to room with and it's a mix how that ended up. So far there haven't been any issues.

ETA: Wanted to add that every single college we visited told us the same thing about ds rooming with the gender he identifies with. Not one said he would have to room with females or that he would have to fully medically transition first.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Joker

[bolt.]

I think the world would be better, and children would be less constrained, if we (or the next generation) would get used to words like “person” and “they” as our most natural way to make generalized statements. Using a singular “they” stops feeling unnatural very quickly, as people begin to tie the new uses to the “singular they” habits they already have.

I'm building that habit myself (slowly) mostly by attending to my language when I lesson-plan my college classes. This works well because I have the time to think ahead and plan my sentences. In other venues it comes more slowly.

I already have the “people” habit quite solid because I worked on it while parenting young kids — I insisted on calling the children in my kids’ lives “people”. It felt awkward for a few months, but then it because easy.

It’s easy because it is actually a reduction in complexity to use a very general term (people) unless a level of specificity is needed or relevant. I was surprised to see how many people I was specifying as man, woman, boy, or girl — when that information was completely irrelevant.

So, I think the world would be healthier if whenever our gender was irrelevant or unspecified — we were all called by “they” pronouns. That doesn’t mean that it’s easy to be a small child in a heavily gendered society going by “they” all by yourself. I can see why that would be awkward and I understand why aunts-and-uncles would struggle with the concept.

None the less, the child will not struggle much if they are supported at home, at school, and in their extended family. Children usually adapt to whatever they are experiencing — even if it is an unusual but harmless language experiment. They don’t know it’s tremendously unusual... and you can help make it harmless. You have a job to do in normalizing their pronoun experience. Work hard to use “they” and apologize (lightly and kindly) if you make an error. (Behave the same way as if you had a “Bobby” who grew out of it and you had to switch to “Rob” one year.) Refuse to make it a big deal. It’s not a big deal — it’s a pronoun. It’s much less important than the child themself.

Parents are always going to try to live out their best values for their children, especially when it directly relates to their child. It’s idealism and high hopes that drive this sort of choice. I think the truly right thing to do here is to deeply honour the good intentions and the freedom being expressed by your sibling’s call here — even though you think they are taking it a bit far.

[Soror]

I don't have an issue for picking gender neutral clothing for a young child and letting them play with whatever.

I do not agree with assuming your child will have gender identity issues without any indications showing that and pretending they don't have a gender when that is a rare occurrence. 

[bolt.]

I think there is a difference between “pretending they don’t have a gender” and acknowledging that their gender is not very relevant and not yet completely clear.

The problem “they” people are trying to solve is not with the child. They are trying to solve way that conventional English grammar crams gender identity information into nearly every sentence where a person is the subject or object. Gender information about one’s self and others is so deeply embedded in language that some people want to shelter their children from the relentless norming influence of the actual words.

Its true that most people identify with one of the binary genders, and that it is most common for that gender identity to match with their physical sex characteristics. However, it’s entirely possible that hearing the words “he” or “she” hundreds of times per day since birth might actually influence a person’s sense-of-self. It’s fair enough to see what happens when we don’t language bomb a kid with an assumption (however plausible and likely the assumption is).

I don’t think that having a gender identity (which we all have) is an “issue” — so I don’t think these people are assuming their child will have “gender identity issues”. It sounds like they are just being patient and vague.

[Amy in NH]

16 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

That would concern me also. If it comes up, deal with it.  But what OP is describing is almost like assuming there will be a dysphoria.

 

I don't think so.  I think it is a way to begin to challenge and change the culture/society that we live in away from heteronormativity.  My older kids (nonbinary & transgender) are both frustrated by the unmindful heteronormative assumptions made by most everyone around them.  When they first started talking about that, in their mid-teens, it really made me think about all the ways in which non-conforming genders and sexualities are invisible.  Those cultural assumptions are what lead to rejection and discrimination.  I am aware of a few areas of the US and Canada in which groups of people are trying to move the culture away from those assumptions to a more neutral position.

If you read Vygotsky on social constructivism, you'll understand that our social reality is created in large part by language.  Using different language is an excellent place to start changing the fabric of our understanding.

[katilac]

13 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

It's like refusing to give a child a name, because hey, some people don't like their given name and end up changing to a new one. 

 

It's nothing like that at all, but, as others have noted, people do this as well, and generally it works out fine. 

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

They don’t know it’s tremendously unusual... and you can help make it harmless. You have a job to do in normalizing their pronoun experience. Work hard to use “they” and apologize (lightly and kindly) if you make an error. (Behave the same way as if you had a “Bobby” who grew out of it and you had to switch to “Rob” one year.) Refuse to make it a big deal. It’s not a big deal — it’s a pronoun. It’s much less important than the child themself.

 

Yes to this and your entire post. 

48 minutes ago, soror said:

I do not agree with assuming your child will have gender identity issues without any indications showing that and pretending they don't have a gender when that is a rare occurrence. 

 

We have no idea whatsoever if the child in question has shown any indications or not. The OP does not live with them or even near them. 

For those who object strongly based on proper use of language - English is already on the far side of changing to "they" as a singular pronoun. Language changes. The incorrect becomes correct and vice versa. 

Using "they" in reference to someone at their request, or in reference to a young child at a parent's request, is simply not as big of a deal as some are making it out to be.

[Bluegoat]

20 hours ago, Janie Grace said:

Do you know anyone raising a child without assigning it a gender? I have a sibling who is doing this. Sibling is gay and lives in a very progressive part of the country. The child has female genitalia but my sibling and partner gave the child a name that could be either gender. They dress the child so that you wouldn't know she's a girl and keep her hair very short. They have been referring to the kid as "she" and "her" but suddenly have decided to use "they" (child just turned 3). The family is coming to visit soon and I'm sure we are all going to forget and offend them by using "she" because that's what we have been doing for 3 years. But we will try our best.

I'm trying to state this all as impassively as I can because I want to be sensitive. But I am really struggling. I agree that we shouldn't push kids into gender stereotypes, that there are lots of ways to be a boy or a girl, and that if a child persistently experiences being in the wrong body, I agree with lovingly facilitating transition. But to not even allow a child a pronoun like everyone else? This kid is in a preschool of boys and girls and isn't allowed to be either? How is that good? (Although given the demographic, maybe there are other "they"s.) My sibling thinks that by age 4 or 5, the child will tell the parents what gender they are. Can a young child really just "pick"? This feels like a weird social experiment. 

I am sorry if this offends you. I am really just wrestling through this. I love my niece more that I can say (I guess I am supposed to use "nibling" now, not niece) and I just fear for what the fallout of this will be. I'm frustrated with what feels like pushing extreme beliefs on a child, and I am worried that the kid will grow up confused and isolated. ?

ETA: I am evaluating my feelings more and I think part of my struggle is sadness at how this makes us feel all the more divergent in our thinking/choices/world views. I love this sibling so much but each year that goes by makes me feel like we are from different planets. And yet we get closer in some ways. I guess I'm afraid this "they not she" thing will drive a wedge because I won't remember and don't understand. Of course I would never argue it with my sibling; their family, their rules. It just makes me sad the way that seeing extreme legalism (girls may not go to college) on the other side of the family does. But I know we are all trying our best... 

 

I know of someone doing this - she is actually a child psychologist, a lesbian.  They don't use neutral terms though, every day they ask the child what gender and pronouns he/she want to use.  This has been going on at least since the child was three.

My feeling is that they are taking something they are hoping to minimize - gender stereotypes - and making them a huge focus in this kids life.  And no, I don't think there is ny way the kid will "just know" at some point, except in so far as they get some sense of gender categories from other people, which seems to make the whole thing useless.  It seems super-stressful as well for the kids.

It's difficult to put the importance of something in it's proper perspective when it becomes an existential question.

[Bluegoat]

18 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

That would concern me also. If it comes up, deal with it.  But what OP is describing is almost like assuming there will be a dysphoria.

 

Yes, this would really bother me in terms of what I was going to go along with.  I think what it is is the parents have decided that gender constructs aren't "real" though it sounds like they are also confused about how that would really work, since they seem to use them as adults.  But if they aren't real, it's like a sort of a blank slate view of gender and sex, not that they are assuming dysphoria.  I think dysphoria has actually almost disappeared out of the up-to-date discussions of gender now.  It plays a very narrow role but isn't really inherent in the conceptualization of gender differences.

In a way though it reminds me of moms I know who just don't seem comfortable with phases of their kids normal development around these questions.  The ones I see are mostly people who think they are progressive, so they are quite happy when their little kids break gender norms, but when they go through times of embracing them, or even being very concrete about them, they are quite upset.  

 

[Bluegoat]

16 hours ago, maize said:

I agree with you that sex is a fundamental category, one of the most fundamental we as a very categorizing species make.

And that confusing young children needlessly over pronouns in a language that uses gendered pronouns is silly.

I don't think gendered pronouns are a human necessity, there are widely spoken languages that do not use separate words for he and she (Chinese, for instance, uses ta as a universal third person singular pronoun) and children do not grow up confused about sex or gender because of it. But English does employ gendered pronouns so yeah...on the whole I think children grow up most comfortably when solidly grounded in their own language and culture.

I think that people who insist that "they" cannot or should not be singular (which is what led me to comment) fail to understand the beautiful messiness of language, because "they" in English is most definitely used as singular in a variety of contexts by native speakers.

(I also have a six year old who hasn't gotten the hang of he and she yet so I understand that perspective as well.)

 

I don't know.  I like the messiness of language.  I don't think that people making self-conscious changes to try and cement ideological points is something I am required to accept because "language is changeable."  

[Paige]

IMO, this will most likely blow over in a year or two when the child becomes more opinionated. I think it's a little unusual but unlikely to cause any harm. I'd try to cooperate as much as possible. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Paige

[Katy]

If it makes you feel any better, I went to school with a girl whose early life was without gender. By the time I met her she'd decided to be female, though was much more interested in intellect than femininity. She once confessed she felt completely perplexed by things like fashion and makeup. And despite being remarkably pretty (her son once mistook a photo of a supermodel for a photo of her) she couldn't see it and didn't know how to use it. Other than that and maybe somewhat odd social skills her life seems remarkably unremarkable.  She's happily married and a parent now, and did not raise her children gender neutral, but does post the memes about letting boys wear pink and play with dolls when those sorts of things go around.

[maize]

9 minutes ago, Katy said:

If it makes you feel any better, I went to school with a girl whose early life was without gender. By the time I met her she'd decided to be female, though was much more interested in intellect than femininity. She once confessed she felt completely perplexed by things like fashion and makeup. And despite being remarkably pretty (her son once mistook a photo of a supermodel for a photo of her) she couldn't see it and didn't know how to use it. Other than that and maybe somewhat odd social skills her life seems remarkably unremarkable.  She's happily married and a parent now, and did not raise her children gender neutral, but does post the memes about letting boys wear pink and play with dolls when those sorts of things go around.

I was not raised gender neutral and am thoroughly perplexed (when I can bring myself to think about something so boring) by fashion and make-up. 

[SanDiegoMom]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

I was not raised gender neutral and am thoroughly perplexed (when I can bring myself to think about something so boring) by fashion and make-up. 

Me too. And ditto for my daughters, as they are raised by me.  My 18 year just called from college to express her frustration at the crazy amount of makeup, skin care, and hair care regime she was supposed to know and follow.   And we all wear exercise clothes everywhere as they are the most comfortable! I did make a conscious choice, though, in raising them -- we have very little tv, no fashion magazines, nothing to influence them too early on what women should dress like.  I just wanted them to be kids and not fall prey to the hyper-sexualized ideals I was inundated with as a middle schooler and high schooler. 

[marbel]

22 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Me too. And ditto for my daughters, as they are raised by me.  My 18 year just called from college to express her frustration at the crazy amount of makeup, skin care, and hair care regime she was supposed to know and follow.   And we all wear exercise clothes everywhere as they are the most comfortable! I did make a conscious choice, though, in raising them -- we have very little tv, no fashion magazines, nothing to influence them too early on what women should dress like.  I just wanted them to be kids and not fall prey to the hyper-sexualized ideals I was inundated with as a middle schooler and high schooler. 

I agree with you.  But it can also go the other way.  I was always a no-makeup, jeans and t-shirt mom.  We had a mixture of "girl toys" and "boy toys" in our house and kids played with whatever they wanted.  We homeschooled, didn't watch much tv or many Disney movies, read books of all sorts with all sorts of main characters.  I never bought "play makeup" which is a concept I've never understood.  (As in, how is it different from "real" makeup except cheaper?)

And yet, my daughter grew very interested in makeup and skincare, such that she thought for a while of going to aesthetician school rather than college. She just likes it, and she's good at it. 

I didn't promote her interest, but I also didn't do anything to stop it once she was old enough to wear (and buy!) makeup.  It just happened that many of her interests are stereotypically female/feminine.  And there is nothing wrong with that either, though sometime people seem to think so. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by marbel

[Bluegoat]

22 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Me too. And ditto for my daughters, as they are raised by me.  My 18 year just called from college to express her frustration at the crazy amount of makeup, skin care, and hair care regime she was supposed to know and follow.   And we all wear exercise clothes everywhere as they are the most comfortable! I did make a conscious choice, though, in raising them -- we have very little tv, no fashion magazines, nothing to influence them too early on what women should dress like.  I just wanted them to be kids and not fall prey to the hyper-sexualized ideals I was inundated with as a middle schooler and high schooler. 

 

I always thought  would not encourage fashion magazines.  I recently bought one for dd though. She is interested in fashion anyway, and I was desperate to have her think beyond cheap leggings and crop tops as far as what's "cool."

[maize]

17 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree with you.  But it can also go the other way.  I was always a no-makeup, jeans and t-shirt mom.  We had a mixture of "girl toys" and "boy toys" in our house and kids played with whatever they wanted.  We homeschooled, didn't watch much tv or many Disney movies, read books of all sorts with all sorts of main characters.  I never bought "play makeup" which is a concept I've never understood.  (As in, how is it different from "real" makeup except cheaper?)

And yet, my daughter grew very interested in makeup and skincare, such that she thought for a while of going to aesthetician school rather than college. She just likes it, and she's good at it. 

I didn't promote her interest, but I also didn't do anything to stop it once she was old enough to wear (and buy!) makeup.  It just happened that many of her interests are stereotypically female/feminine.  And there is nothing wrong with that either, though sometime people seem to think so. 

Yeah one of my dds is interested in make-up and such. She also loved all things pink and frilly from the time she was small.

Didn't get it from me, I've neither encouraged nor discouraged I figure she is her own person.

Edited October 26, 2018 by maize

[marbel]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

Yeah one of my dds is interested in make-up and such. She also loved all things pink and frilly from the time she was small.

Didn't get it from me, I've neither encouraged nor discouraged I figure she is her own person.

I agree.

In my lifetime, I have seen such a change in this regard. I just don't see people steering their girls toward 'girl things' and boys toward 'boy things.' I'm sure it happens but I just don't see it. I do see parents who intentionally expose their kids to different experiences, toys, playthings, game, books... and don't try to push them in a particular way. My kids have plenty of people in their lives who I would never have seen as a kid growing up in the 60s: male nurses, female doctors, male piano teacher, female firefighters...

If anything, I see people steering their kids toward high-income professions. Not that there's anything wrong with high-income professions, but not everyone is suited to, or cares about, careers that may make them wealthy.

[maize]

12 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree.

In my lifetime, I have seen such a change in this regard. I just don't see people steering their girls toward 'girl things' and boys toward 'boy things.' I'm sure it happens but I just don't see it. I do see parents who intentionally expose their kids to different experiences, toys, playthings, game, books... and don't try to push them in a particular way. My kids have plenty of people in their lives who I would never have seen as a kid growing up in the 60s: male nurses, female doctors, male piano teacher, female firefighters...

If anything, I see people steering their kids toward high-income professions. Not that there's anything wrong with high-income professions, but not everyone is suited to, or cares about, careers that may make them wealthy.

Nor would our society function with only high prestige high income generating professions.

I think if we could reach a point where a person working in any profession/job could provide decently for themselves and their family many people would be less focused on high income jobs. A farm laborer or construction worker or daycare provider does work just as valuable as a doctor or engineer. I don't think we need to equalize everything but decent quality of life in a country with the wealth and resources ours has should be available to all.