Would you encourage a student to pursue a major that is not necessarily in their area of strength?

[scholastica]

My current senior is very undecided in the major department. Really isn’t ready to commit to any major at the start. However, this student has expressed an interest in a very math based field. This student has near perfect English and Reading scores, and the math and science score are well above average but not in the 30+ range. In my mind, a math heavy major is best suited to someone in the 30+ range. Am I wrong? Should I just not say anything? Student is very sensitive and if there is any hint of, “hey maybe your strengths are in other areas...” there will be tears and expressions of “ you don’t think I can do this”. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

You are describing my daughter.  Similar ACT scores.   I was floored when she expressed interest in Civil Engineering.  I was about to discourage her from doing that, knowing the math struggles we have had over the years, but my husband wisely held me back.  We told her that we had confidence that she could succeed in what ever she put her mind (and energy) toward.  But I did ask if she really wanted the stress and pressure of needing to do well in math.  I told her that it was her decision and that we would support her, but I wanted her to look at all the possibilities.  She is now a freshman studying Civil Engineering.  Not at a tippy-top school, but decent ... ABET certified, growing program, women grads are highly sought after, etc.  She is loving her teachers and her classes (except Calculus.)  She is active in ASCE and Women in Engineering.  Yes, she has shed tears about math.  But, she would not have shared her difficulties about that with me if I had really poo-poo'ed her choice.  I'm glad that I am a safe person to vent when she needs to, rather than pretend that everything is A-OK.  She is doing what she needs to in order to maintain her grades in this class (tutoring, Khan academy videos before lecture, attending study sessions.)  She likely won't get an A, but she is making sure that she learns it and understands it.

Every kid is different.  Your child may surprise you.  If your child is determined to pursue this course, I would encourage your child to do what they need to in order to set themselves up for success. Good luck to you and your student!

(And, if the college students I know and care about are any indication, changing majors isn't the end of the world.  My niece was sure she wanted to be a doctor.  Halfway through college, she changed to some vague sounding health science major.  My sister was furious because she felt she was unemployable.  Well, dear niece worked for a couple years after graduation in jobs that really didn't have much of a future (and weren't related to her major.)  But she decided to go to grad school to be an Advance Practice nurse in Pediatrics.  So, she is now doing what she wanted to do all along, work in health care with children, but not as an MD.  She recently graduated, passed her boards, and is now working in her dream job.  I know other young adults who have had similar meandering paths toward their future.  They need permission to try to figure things out.  As parents, it can be stressful because anything than that linear path can incur more costs.  

[scholastica]

4 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

You are describing my daughter.  Similar ACT scores.   I was floored when she expressed interest in Civil Engineering.  I was about to discourage her from doing that, knowing the math struggles we have had over the years, but my husband wisely held me back.  We told her that we had confidence that she could succeed in what ever she put her mind (and energy) toward.  But I did ask if she really wanted the stress and pressure of needing to do well in math.  I told her that it was her decision and that we would support her, but I wanted her to look at all the possibilities.  She is now a freshman studying Civil Engineering.  Not at a tippy-top school, but decent ... ABET certified, growing program, women grads are highly sought after, etc.  She is loving her teachers and her classes (except Calculus.)  She is active in ASCE and Women in Engineering.  Yes, she has shed tears about math.  But, she would not have shared her difficulties about that with me if I had really poo-poo'ed her choice.  I'm glad that I am a safe person to vent when she needs to, rather than pretend that everything is A-OK.  She is doing what she needs to in order to maintain her grades in this class (tutoring, Khan academy videos before lecture, attending study sessions.)  She likely won't get an A, but she is making sure that she learns it and understands it.

Every kid is different.  Your child may surprise you.  If your child is determined to pursue this course, I would encourage your child to do what they need to in order to set themselves up for success. Good luck to you and your student!

(And, if the college students I know and care about are any indication, changing majors isn't the end of the world.  My niece was sure she wanted to be a doctor.  Halfway through college, she changed to some vague sounding health science major.  My sister was furious because she felt she was unemployable.  Well, dear niece worked for a couple years after graduation in jobs that really didn't have much of a future (and weren't related to her major.)  But she decided to go to grad school to be an Advance Practice nurse in Pediatrics.  So, she is now doing what she wanted to do all along, work in health care with children, but not as an MD.  She recently graduated, passed her boards, and is now working in her dream job.  I know other young adults who have had similar meandering paths toward their future.  They need permission to try to figure things out.  As parents, it can be stressful because anything than that linear path can incur more costs.  

Thank you for this! This is almost exactly the situation, except different major.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, scholastica said:

 This student has near perfect English and Reading scores, and the math and science score are well above average but not in the 30+ range. In my mind, a math heavy major is best suited to someone in the 30+ range. Am I wrong? 

 

ACT is a timed test with less time per question than SAT. My slow worker DS12 finds the SAT less stressful time wise. So I won’t base math ability on a timed test.

My husband has no academic strengths. Through hard work he finished his bachelors in electrical engineering in four years, his PhD in electrical engineering in three years (skipping masters). He slog through the equivalent of calculus AB in high school. His work is in the quality control arm of R&D and he has honestly forgotten most of his calculus from high school and college. 

[scholastica]

9 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

ACT is a timed test with less time per question than SAT. My slow worker DS12 finds the SAT less stressful time wise. So I won’t base math ability on a timed test.

My husband has no academic strengths. Through hard work he finished his bachelors in electrical engineering in four years, his PhD in electrical engineering in three years (skipping masters). He slog through the equivalent of calculus AB in high school. His work is in the quality control arm of R&D and he has honestly forgotten most of his calculus from high school and college. 

This is very helpful. Thank you.

[regentrude]

I would not use the ACT score as a measure for a student's aptitude. There are plenty of reasons why a student with a strong aptitude for math and science may not achieve scores in the 30s. They may not be good at working math under time pressure or may not have been motivated to drill for the standardized test.

How has the student been doing in his actual math and science courses? Does he LIKE math?

Edited October 18, 2018 by regentrude

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I would not use the ACT score as a measure for a student's aptitude. There are plenty of reasons why a student with a strong aptitude for math and science may not achieve scores in the 30s. They may not be good at working math under time pressure or may not have been motivated to drill for the standardized test.

How has the student been doing in his actual math and science courses? Does he LIKE math?

As and Bs in math and science. The limitation being that the science instruction the student has received is not optimal and there are reasons for that. However, the student enjoys science and math. This student actually did a science research internship program in which the interns learned how to do field research and then worked with Graduates and Post-Graduates at a prestigious university on their research projects. The student did very well and is receiving a glowing recommendation from one of the coordinators of the program. This student takes books out of the library on string theory, current events/problems in science, math theory and such and enjoys them immensely. So, the interest is there and I think they could do well, but since I'm not seeing the score up where I would have thought for a math heavy science, I want to be sure I am not encouraging someone into failure. When the student was younger and did school based standardized tests, they always ended up in a high percentile for math.

[laundrycrisis]

This was me, except I had very bad math scores, repeated Algebra 1, barely made it through Algebra II and never got to Trig, so I had to take remedial Trig in college.  And I switched to engineering.  I remember the people who told me I wasn't capable.   Conquering math in a university environment, learning to enjoy it, and doing well at it - after having struggled with it since 2nd grade and being told I had a learning disability in math and should choose a non-math career direction.....ooooh, this was therapeutic.   After I'm done getting my own kids through math, I want to do some private math tutoring, because my tutors made all the difference for me.  

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, scholastica said:

As and Bs in math and science. The limitation being that the science instruction the student has received is not optimal and there are reasons for that. However, the student enjoys science and math. This student actually did a science research internship program in which the interns learned how to do field research and then worked with Graduates and Post-Graduates at a prestigious university on their research projects. The student did very well and is receiving a glowing recommendation from one of the coordinators of the program. This student takes books out of the library on string theory, current events/problems in science, math theory and such and enjoys them immensely. So, the interest is there and I think they could do well, but since I'm not seeing the score up where I would have thought for a math heavy science, I want to be sure I am not encouraging someone into failure. When the student was younger and did school based standardized tests, they always ended up in a high percentile for math.

let him go for it. He seems to have a basic aptitude, and this coupled with high interest positions him well to excel. Not every student who is successful in science was a math prodigy as a child, or a great test taker.

Edited October 18, 2018 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

54 minutes ago, scholastica said:

As and Bs in math and science.

This student actually did a science research internship program in which the interns learned how to do field research and then worked with Graduates and Post-Graduates at a prestigious university on their research projects. The student did very well and is receiving a glowing recommendation from one of the coordinators of the program.

When the student was younger and did school based standardized tests, they always ended up in a high percentile for math.

 

How is the student’s test taking skills even for class tests? My DS12’s standardized tests scores has gone up not so much because of ability but because of test taking skills in English (knowing what the question wants and not overthinking), and Math (pacing himself instead of forgetting about time). 

My husband is much slower in mental math than I am, and he also needs to ponder instead of making snap decisions. DS12 is similar to my husband and is thinking of majoring in mechanical or computer engineering. The thing is both fields of work do not necessarily require speed so my husband is happy in his job and DS12 has a high chance of finding a suitable engineering job that is not fast paced. I was thinking of working in R&D until I realized in high school I thrive on speed and fast moving environment. I don’t have my husband’s patience for projects that has no short term results to spur me on. 

DS13 who is more of an overall fast worker, is slow on math proofs and reading articles on things like quantum theory. He enjoys AoPS WOOT class (https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/woot/schedule) and had fun at a commuter math camp last summer. 

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, laundrycrisis said:

This was me, except I had very bad math scores, repeated Algebra 1, barely made it through Algebra II and never got to Trig, so I had to take remedial Trig in college.  And I switched to engineering.  I remember the people who told me I wasn't capable.   Conquering math in a university environment, learning to enjoy it, and doing well at it - after having struggled with it since 2nd grade and being told I had a learning disability in math and should choose a non-math career direction.....ooooh, this was therapeutic.   After I'm done getting my own kids through math, I want to do some private math tutoring, because my tutors made all the difference for me.  

Wow. That is inspirational! Thank you for that. 

[scholastica]

Thank you all for your responses. You have really helped me to get a clearer picture. I will definitely encourage her to pursue this interest.

[catz]

I got 2 BS degrees out of an engineering program and never got over a 30 on an ACT.  I was always an A student in math though and it was easy for me.  The ACT just wasn't my test.  I didn't prep and took it once and never thought about it again.  I can't even tell you what I got.  I transferred into the engineering program after starting at a school that was a complete academic mismatch for me.  That engineering school has average ACT scores 31-34.  

So sure it's possible.  Does the ACT score make sense to what you see day to day?  Has she taken it before?  A huge part of the ACT is speed.  Is she just slow but getting right what she is getting through?  I also think the science section of the ACT tells you exactly nothing.  I don't doubt that if you have good science concepts and are fast, that can reflect on that test.  But if you get even 3 wrong you're below a 30.  That was my son's most difficult section.  His practice scores ranged from 28-36 before his last taking.   I do think my son's final ACT score was at least close to reflective of his actual academics because he understood the format of the test and was practiced enough with it to do well with it and his composite was in the 99%.  I still think the science in his case means nothing but he did fine in that section too.  Anyway - I don't actually think my genetic offspring is wildly more intelligent than his parents.  I just think he was more prepared to show his stuff on the ACT.

Anyway - no way would I discourage her if that's what she wants to study!

[MerryAtHope]

Yes, I'd absolutely let him explore and encourage him to take some classes in his area of interest. See if the interest builds or wanes. Encourage him to talk to people in the field he's interested in, do some short interviews, maybe even a short job shadow, and so on. Support him in any way that you can. An ACT test score really isn't a great way to decide what might be best-suited for a person to choose as a major or career. There are so many factors that don't show up on test scores too--I wouldn't look to an ACT score as really giving a full picture of a person's aptitude. 

[regentrude]

5 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 I also think the science section of the ACT tells you exactly nothing.  I don't doubt that if you have good science concepts and are fast, that can reflect on that test. 

The "science" section is mainly a speed reading test with a few graphs thrown in. It has absolutely nothing to do with scientific knowledge or with the ability to think scientifically.

[Lanny]

Many years ago I had a "Mentor" who was a Software Engineering Consultant where I worked. He told me, "I think people should do the hardest work they are capable of doing".  He wasn't referring to digging ditches or things involving manual labor, he was talking about mental gymnastics. That work involved Assembly Language programming on a government project.

I don't think any test is an indicator of success or failure in a given field. He should give it a shot.

[dirty ethel rackham]

7 hours ago, Lanny said:

Many years ago I had a "Mentor" who was a Software Engineering Consultant where I worked. He told me, "I think people should do the hardest work they are capable of doing".  He wasn't referring to digging ditches or things involving manual labor, he was talking about mental gymnastics. That work involved Assembly Language programming on a government project.

I don't think any test is an indicator of success or failure in a given field. He should give it a shot.

Yikes.  Assembly language was my downfall in college.  It was my first D in my life.  I switched majors from Math/computer science to just straight Math after that.  Well, guess what? My first job out of college was coding in Assembly. ? But we had adequate training from people who wanted us to succeed rather than trying to flunk us out.  And I wasn't too bad at it.  

[elegantlion]

Ds started college with an ACT math score way less than 30. Because of our life situation, he had not been able to take math from an adequate instructor. He's now majoring in math and mostly thriving. He needed mentors in math to help guide him, better teachers, and to be around people excited about math. He's worked hard, he is working hard this semester, but he has the tenacity to plow through when needed. 

[RenaInTexas]

I worked with a research project being conducted by my university's math professors where we were trying to find what variables were strongly correlated to success in College Calculus. SAT/ACT scores were not among them. In fact, the strongest related variables were things that indicated a willingness to work hard. Colleges across the country are finding the same which is one reason SAT scores are being given less (in some cases no) consideration as a requirement for admission (though homeschoolers still need them as validation).

[Lecka]

I don't know if you have seen a lot of other test scores for your kids..... my kids are in public school and I see their standardized test scores fluctuate up and down.  They are just not that reliable.  Most recently my daughter's math and reading scores came back almost the same, yet I know very well she is much stronger in reading, and she has some weaknesses in math that somehow were not shown in testing.  It just does not make a lot of sense.  My oldest in an inconsistent tester, and he has very fluctuating scores.  

Then there is the issue of test prep.  Personally, I prepped a lot and re-took tests, because I was trying to qualify for a state scholarship based on ACT score.  

As someone who has done test prep, you have to take it with a grain of salt.  There really are things that can be done with test prep, to allow higher scores from someone who is poorer in math.  I have seen this firsthand in math classes I took in high school, when some students who were definitely performing better in an *actual math class* would not score as well on a standardized test, either from nervousness, generally not doing as well at standardized tests, or a lack of prep.

These scores just are not as meaningful as other details about a student.