How long to get the hang of AOPS?

[JazzyMom]

We are long time A Beka math fans, but I saw 11yo ds getting bored with it and thought we’d try AOPS for prealgebra.

We’ve only been at it a week, but it is taking some help from me.  We’re both used to him doing math on his own.  I don’t mind helping him, but I am really having to walk him through both the lessons and the practice problems.

I am fine with it, but is that the way it is supposed to work?

It is a totally new way of thinking/learning for him, and he says he is enjoying it.  Just wondering how long it should take to transition to this new style.  

 

[SoCal_Bear]

This sounds pretty normal since you weren't doing Beast Academy prior. It's written discovery style. How long a student takes to transition is pretty individua? Whether or not they can do it independiently, it is also pretty individual to the student. My son is able to do AOPS PA independently but he has had a lot of math under his belt prior to this. Plenty of kids out there that don't use this text independently. 

 

[Tranquility7]

We did SM through 6B and then transitioned to AoPS. DS is mathy, but I always been a part of the SM lessons, and AoPS is the same for us. Our routine is to do the lesson together. Then he does the exercise problems at the end of each section (and eventually chapter review) on his own. He has to show his work. If he isn’t following their methods, I might make him rework the problem even if he got the right answer. If he gets the wrong answer, he reworks it.

In my experience, AoPS does not lend itself to being done independently, but certainly some kids could. Just not mine, LOL. There have been many topics that technically DS already “knows how to do”, and if he were going through the program independently, he would very likely disregard a lot of the conceptual complexity and just do things the way he already knows how. That doesn’t seem like a good approach for this program. Following their method is often quite important to reinforcing the concept they are teaching, and those concepts come up again and are built upon in later chapters.

If you don’t have time to do the lesson part with him, perhaps he could get what he needs from the Alcumus website? I think they have videos on there and go through the book. Or maybe that is only if you purchase the online part? I can’t remember. But it is worth checking out.

[LMD]

The first couple of chapters are hard going in that book!

It took until about chapter 3, 4 for dd to get comfortable and be able to do it independently.

[TracyP]

Both my kids (who have used AoPS) needed me to teach them the lessons in Prealg. It is such a wordy text - more so than AoPS Algebra and Geometry. Plus it is a completely new to him format. He may need your help for the long haul.

Your ds will probably get better at completing the practice problems independently over the next few weeks. He may need to be reminded that it is okay to get some wrong and okay to not know the answer immediately. My ds struggled with this when he started AoPS. He was constantly asking for help to the point that I felt like I was practically doing it for him. But he caught on eventually.

[....]

I had to work through that entire book with my kids.  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I would say by chapter 4, ds was doing 80% self-teaching.  We are now in AOPS Algebra, and he is doing about 95% self-teaching.  The only thing I do is sit with the solutions manual while he reads his answers out to me.  This gives me a feel for his level of mastery.  He then corrects on his own or occasionally with my help.  

 

I'm shocked at his evolution in one year of math.  He "enjoys" it (I mean, he probably wouldn't pull it out in his free time, but...), gets down to work and stays focused, and the level of mastery is impressive.

[SanDiegoMom]

I had my kids do the problems, then watch the videos, then do the exercises.  The videos teach a lot, but I am always there for the more challenging aspects.  But for my daughter (who stopped after chapter 5 tbh) I would catch her doing problems the long way and not necessarily getting the concept they were trying to emphasize.  So I needed to be at her elbow a lot more than my son. 

[katilac]

You would have to work hard to find two more different math programs, lol, so I would expect a long learning curve. He should gradually improve on doing the practice exercises on his own, but I would not be surprised at any student needing ongoing help getting through the lessons. 

We were past pre-algebra when it came out. I cannot imagine it being more wordy than the others ?

 

[SanDiegoMom]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

You would have to work hard to find two more different math programs, lol, so I would expect a long learning curve. He should gradually improve on doing the practice exercises on his own, but I would not be surprised at any student needing ongoing help getting through the lessons. 

We were past pre-algebra when it came out. I cannot imagine it being more wordy than the others ?

 

Believe it! Lol.  It is more wordy than Intro to Alg for sure, especially the first two chapters.  It got better after those first two though. 

[TheAttachedMama]

I've recently posted a BUNCH of threads trying to establish my own AOPS routine.  We have finally gotten into a really nice pattern with AOPS.   It looks something like this:

1)  Teach Lesson (example:  5.2 Solving Linear Equations I):  Read text, work problems/exercises, review/understand solutions, watch corresponding videos.  (This is done with mama.)  My goal this year is to begin teach them how to read, understand, and learn from a math book on their own.  So that is what I am really teaching when I go through this chapter with them. I am also working the problems/exercises *with* them so that I can also learn some of the unique AOPS problems solving techniques.   I don't want them getting too far beyond me...and it happens quickly with AOPS no matter how good a mom might be at math! ?    A lesson might take us a single day...OR it might take us two or more days.   It is hard to predict honestly.

2)  Go through corresponding Alcumus sections until mastered (blue) (example:  basic linear equations):  (This is done independently.)   I am someone who believes in lots and lots of practice in math.   So after a section has been taught, they then start working in alcumus until the topic is mastered.  Alcumus is SUCH a great tool.   It is so much better than a standard math textbook or workbook problem set.   First, there is built-in, targeted review.  So I don't have to worry about making sure they don't forget their exponent rules for example.  There is also built-in motivation through quests, video-game-like "XP points", and even friendly on-line competition.  And the problems are adaptive and interactive--so it focuses on the weak areas and gives problems that are exactly the right level of difficulty.

3) Once alcumus goes into the blue (and that might take 20 minutes, and it might take 123 problems over 5 days! hahaha), I then teach a new section in their book (example:  5.3 Solving Linear Equations II).  And they complete the associated alcumus section independently.  

4)  Once a chapter is completed (example:  just finished 5.5 in the book and the associated alcumus section), we then go back and complete the Summary, Review, and Challenge problems for the previous chapter.   (example: chapter 4)  (This might take a few days).   Then we go on to the next chapter.

We work through the digital book.  It links all of the videos and solutions which is nice so you can check your work as you go.   (Just like alcumus which also immediately gives you a very nicely written solution!)  At this age, we are also working on reading the solution and understanding.  I think that is really valuable because the kids are learning what a well written solution looks like....my hope is that this aids them in writing their own solutions by the end of the year.

Another great thing about the digital books is that you can also directly link to and chat about a particular problem on the forum.  (The forum is a wealth of information, and I am even learning a lot reading through these kids' solutions!)   I purchased both the digital and "regular" book this year, and I much prefer to the digital book.   We will probably only buy that from now on.   :)

Edited October 17, 2018 by TheAttachedMama

[daijobu]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:47 AM, Tranquility7 said:

We did SM through 6B and then transitioned to AoPS. DS is mathy, but I always been a part of the SM lessons, and AoPS is the same for us. Our routine is to do the lesson together. Then he does the exercise problems at the end of each section (and eventually chapter review) on his own. He has to show his work. If he isn’t following their methods, I might make him rework the problem even if he got the right answer. If he gets the wrong answer, he reworks it.

In my experience, AoPS does not lend itself to being done independently, but certainly some kids could. Just not mine, LOL.

 

 

I agree with the bolded.  And I also like the way AttachedMama goes through the book.  Especially the part about saving the end of chapter Review and Challenge Problems for after completing the subsequent chapter.  I can see how that can really help with retention.

I continued leading the discussion of the Problems all the way through Calculus, modeling how one studies math: with paper and pencil handy to write as you read.  Now she can do independent study in all her courses pretty well, and prefers learning that way.  Good luck!    

[JazzyMom]

Thanks, all!  This helps.  I did worry that maybe I was helping too much, and he may not master and retain the material with so much of my involvement.  It is helpful to know that it’s normal to need help and may take him a whole to catch on.

I didn’t realize this was going to be such an ambitious undertaking, but he does like the book.  I’ll set aside some time each day to work with him on it.  He actually likes working alone, but it will be nice for the 2 of us to have some time together.

[librarymama]

My son likes the book, but I don't think he's really getting it or retaining. I don't know. I feel like it is ME doing the discovery and demonstrating what to do over and over and when he gets to the exercises he still doesn't know what to do. We're currently stuck in the middle of exponents and while he knows what exponents are and has lot of previous experience with them, he cannot solve any of the problems in the book without my help.

He does love Alcumus and watching the videos of Richard, but even after watching videos I don't think he remembers what to do when he returns to the book. 

[arliemaria]

We’ve had to move slowly with Beast Academy while using many other curricula alongside. I assume this will be how AOPS will be as well. 

[SoCal_Bear]

Attached Mama, what a great idea to do review/challenge a chapter behind. I just implemented it today since we just wrapped up a chapter.

Edited October 19, 2018 by calbear

[TheAttachedMama]

On 10/18/2018 at 8:34 PM, librarymama said:

My son likes the book, but I don't think he's really getting it or retaining. I don't know. I feel like it is ME doing the discovery and demonstrating what to do over and over and when he gets to the exercises he still doesn't know what to do. We're currently stuck in the middle of exponents and while he knows what exponents are and has lot of previous experience with them, he cannot solve any of the problems in the book without my help.

 He does love Alcumus and watching the videos of Richard, but even after watching videos I don't think he remembers what to do when he returns to the book. 

1

Here is what I might try if I were you:

1)  Self Discovery:   Others might disagree, but I think it is OK to walk him through the self-discovery at this stage in the game.   I am only guessing, but this may be the first time your child has ever seen a math book like this.  So I think it is OK to put on some "training wheels" for a while and teach them how to learn from a math book.   Make it a goal that by the end of the year (or the beginning of next year), he could read an AOPS chapter and self-teach.   But for now, set up some VERY incremental steps to get to that point.   Example:   For the first several chapters, read the introductory material TO HIM while he follows along.   When you get to the problems, write them on a white board as examples.    Ask him if he has any idea how you would solve a problem like that, and discuss his ideas.   If he has no idea, write the very first step or two from the solution to give him a hint.  (And explain clearly what you are doing in that step.  e.g.  "Notice that I could rewrite all of these numbers as 2 to some power to get everything to the same base.")   Gently lead him so that he can suggest what you would do next in the problem.   (You might have to give a few more hints.)    NOTE:  He should gradually become more and more involved in solving the problems.   If he eventually cannot offer any suggestions after many hints, that is a clue that he might need to go back and firm up some basics.   Try to look for weak areas in his understanding and then spend a few days tutoring and practicing those specific skills before moving on.   (Common weak areas might include working on "factoring terms out" / the distributive property and order of operations.  Also, make sure that he really understands the first few chapters on basics arithmetic.   Many kids...and mamas hahaha... have problems keeping their signs straight in these problems.)    After you solve one of the problems (aka examples) explain and summarize what you have learned.  e.g. say "What did this problem show us?  It showed us that when we have like bases, we can add the exponents.")   Make sure that the math vocabulary is not throwing him too.  Review what is meant by a product, a sum, a base, etc. etc.   Review what is meant by "inclusive" or any other term he sees in the problem and don't be afraid to remind him over and over again what those terms mean even if they act annoyed.  ?

2)  Review, Review, Review:   Get a deck of old-fashioned blank index cards, and have your child make flashcards for ANY new information they have learned in those problems.   Have them practice these cards each day.   For example, you might want to summarize the exponent laws on each card.  Or summarize how to rewrite division as multiplication and subtraction as addition.  Summarize how to expand common expressions:  Front of card would say, "expand (a+b)^2"  and back would have the expanded form.   Also, there is a certain amount of memorization in math that makes things WAY easier.   (Sort of like having your multiplication facts down makes long division easier.)   At this stage in the game, have him memorize the first few perfect squares up to 30^2.   (Add a few facts each week).  Have him memorize the first few powers of 2  (2^2, 2^3, etc.) Have him memorize the first few cubes (2^3, 2^4, 2^5, etc.)   When you get to the Number Theory section, summarize the divisibility tests.  And so on.  

3)  Practice, Practice, Practice:   At this point in time, you have a choice in how you practice:   You *could* just work through the exercises together then go to Alcumus.   OR, you could go straight to Alcumus first and then circle back and do the exercises.  (I bet the exercises will become a lot easier after you have been through all of that Alcumus practice!!) Regardless of what path you choose first,  modify the settings on Alcumus so that he does not advance until he masters a topic.   Have him start from the beginning and go through Alcumus for every topic in pre-algebra until he masters (moves into the blue) for each topic.   Alcumus is adaptive and will automatically review.  It will also focus on things he needs to work on disguised as "quests" (example:  speed in problem-solving, etc.)    How long it takes to master a topic REALLY depends on the kid and their level of understanding.   So he might show mastery in as few as 6 problems done in 20 minutes, otherwise, it might take him 153 problems and days of work.  (Yes, one of my kids took 153 problems to master positive exponents!!! haha)    BUT--you can't rush mastery and understanding.   I think it is important to not move ahead until their level of understanding is rock solid.   (HINT:   While they are working on Alcumus, teach them how to READ and UNDERSTAND the solution.  Even if they get the problem correct, they should READ and UNDERSTAND the solution.   This takes maturity, but it has to be done or they will never get better in math.  Have them look at each expression and ask them if they understand each and every step.  If they can't explain where a number came from or how they got to a particular step, they need to come and get help.   If they don't understand certain math terms used in the explanation, they need to come and get help  This is so very important.  Some kids will have to learn this lesson the hard way by working through 153 problems. ?  But it is an important habit to develop when it comes to learning math well long term.  I stress that my kids should never fake understanding, and ask as many questions as you need to until they understand.   I even go as far as to have them draw "emoji" faces that represent their level of understanding of my explanations.  :)   A note about all of this practice:   Some kids catch on to math VERY quickly and easily.   For them, they can "just" do the problems and exercises and have the material in their long-term memory forever.   Other kids, like mine, NEED much more practice.   The reason I suggest Alcumus is that it will periodically go back and review previously mastered concepts.   Recalling information is very important for long-term retention.  Regardless of how you practice math, try to keep them motivated throughout all of this practice.  Have them check the Alcumus hall of fame each day or whatever you need to do to keep practice fun!   If they cannot pass a topic after a lot of practice, go back and reteach the material in the books and re-watch the videos.  

I hope this helps some!

 

[8filltheheart]

On 10/18/2018 at 8:34 PM, librarymama said:

My son likes the book, but I don't think he's really getting it or retaining. I don't know. I feel like it is ME doing the discovery and demonstrating what to do over and over and when he gets to the exercises he still doesn't know what to do. We're currently stuck in the middle of exponents and while he knows what exponents are and has lot of previous experience with them, he cannot solve any of the problems in the book without my help.

He does love Alcumus and watching the videos of Richard, but even after watching videos I don't think he remembers what to do when he returns to the book. 

It may not be the best method of learning for him. It is not for every student, not even all kids who can and do master concepts the way it teaches.  He might learn and master less via AoPS than if he used a different approach.  The irony is that he could excel and be a muc stronger math student not using AoPS.

There are really weak math programs out there that do not delve into concepts at any level of depth. But there are also excellent math programs out there that directly teach strong mathematical thinking without taking the same approach as AoPS. It does not have to be one or the other. You can find a program that directly teaches without compromising his mathematical reasoning.

[librarymama]

On 10/21/2018 at 5:19 AM, TheAttachedMama said:

Here is what I might try if I were you: [snip]

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! I have saved this to keep in mind for later. I actually think this style eventually will work perfectly for my 3rd grade son (plowing through Beast now!). Also, I think you are right that ODS is a child who needs more practice. I also realized that he was in over his head and needs to review some things. AoPS Prealgebra is just not a good fit for him, right now. 

On 10/21/2018 at 11:40 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

It may not be the best method of learning for him. It is not for every student, not even all kids who can and do master concepts the way it teaches.  He might learn and master less via AoPS than if he used a different approach.  The irony is that he could excel and be a muc stronger math student not using AoPS.

There are really weak math programs out there that do not delve into concepts at any level of depth. But there are also excellent math programs out there that directly teach strong mathematical thinking without taking the same approach as AoPS. It does not have to be one or the other. You can find a program that directly teaches without compromising his mathematical reasoning.

 

Thank you for saying this! It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking there is one best way. ?

We tried out Saxon Algebra 1/2 today and he is really enjoying the straightforward style. He has previous experience with Saxon, so I do think this will be a good way to go for now.