Good "less intense" reading interventions

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Mainer said:

I read some Tom & Ricky books with a 7 year old, and he LOVED, LOVED, LOVED them

Ok, now you're skunking me that I didn't order T&R!!! But really he just, I don't know. He squigs out about things. He requires a lot of handling.

[Kanin]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, and we should probably just call and see if she's back. She had the audacity to want maternity leave with her baby, lol. I'd have to drive to another practice, but yeah she was pretty golden. She was also ABA trained, so basically she could do anything and it was worthwhile just for the conversation, for the care in interaction. She had him working from lists, collaborating, making choices. It was amazing. Now we have the fat lazy OT that they're trying to talk me out of firing. 

Huh. Well. Can you babysit while she works with your ds?? What if you bring her lunch, too?  ?

[Kanin]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Ok, now you're skunking me that I didn't order T&R!!! But really he just, I don't know. He squigs out about things. He requires a lot of handling.

T&R might freak him out right now, because it's a lot of text and one picture every three pages. It looks scarier than it is. He's good with what you've got right now ? 

[Pen]

All the HN we used were boy friendly. Even ones with female characters were about hiking, sailing— active boy friendly stuff. 

[Pen]

In addition to being “boy friendly “ many of the fictional ones (and even some of the non-fictional ones) had a common theme of persistence despite difficulties and setbacks. Very helpful imo when struggling with the reading. 

[Kanin]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

In addition to being “boy friendly “ many of the fictional ones (and even some of the non-fictional ones) had a common theme of persistence despite difficulties and setbacks. Very helpful imo when struggling with the reading. 

I think so, too! What a great company.

[Kanin]

Well, High Noon emailed me back and said that the reading programs are older programs that don't have a Tier designation. ?

 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

Well, High Noon emailed me back and said that the reading programs are older programs that don't have a Tier designation. ?

 

Yeah, I think that's because they need modification to be a tier of intervention. There's a lot there that's good, but I was looking through the HN2 manual more last night and thinking about the additional things I would have to do to teach it to my ds. What's there is good stuff, but that's why it's not able to be marked as a tier.

[PeterPan]

Did you find out more about their Wilson stash and whether you can go back to that? That would be the most logical thing. You could make kits ahead and make it idiot-proof.

And nothing says you can't use reading texts from HN, etc. It's just saying there's more that you get with OG, with more explicit instruction. There's too much together, too much steps in one lesson, not enough multi-sensory and making each component explicit and idiot-proof. A mom can work with that in a 1:1, but that's not what the teacher needs for tier 2 when she has a full schedule.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Did you find out more about their Wilson stash and whether you can go back to that? That would be the most logical thing. You could make kits ahead and make it idiot-proof.

And nothing says you can't use reading texts from HN, etc. It's just saying there's more that you get with OG, with more explicit instruction. There's too much together, too much steps in one lesson, not enough multi-sensory and making each component explicit and idiot-proof. A mom can work with that in a 1:1, but that's not what the teacher needs for tier 2 when she has a full schedule.

Huh. I'm a bit bummed. The irony is that Wilson is a better program (Fundations/Just Words) because it's more thorough, but it's more teacher intensive. I looked at the teacher manual and it's not bad, but there are more moving parts to keep track of. HN said 5 minutes of prep. 

I did a little looking for the Fundations materials, but they seem to be dispersed throughout the school. The full-on Wilson program is contained to one closet, thank goodness!

 

Thanks for your thoughts. It's a big decision!

[Pen]

The program used locally where I am is:  

 

https://www.macmillanmh.com/reading/products_triumphs.html

It meets local state approvals. It is IMO somewhat lacking in very stepwise progression with phonics and does too much with whole language or guessing. But my understanding is it is tier 2 rti if that is the main thing you need and it covers the whole range of grades you are dealing with. My son thought it was okay as an added practice. Though not what got him successfully reading. 

[PeterPan]

39 minutes ago, Mainer said:

but there are more moving parts to keep track of

You might see if there's a Wilson FB group or someone on TPT who has uploaded planning sheets. Data drives RTI and intervention, so someone has probably made sheets already to make it a snap. Wilson is pretty widely accepted in ps I think.

[PeterPan]

Oh this is interesting. I'm doing some googlefu looking for a Wilson Reading FB group, and the Iowa Decoding Dyslexia FB group is screaming super hard that Wilson tutors need to be trained to implement it with fidelity. That probably addresses what you're sensing when you look at the materials, that they're not open and go, that without getting the big picture people are going to be prone to screw it up. 

So that's a challenge in the ps, when they have turnover and people moving around and maybe need someone to do the work. I don't know how you'd get them trained. I can see why it's an issue. The more custom materials are the more powerful, but they also require the person to learn the method in order to customize.

The joke is, our state is now requiring 9 hours of grad level reading for an MED and offering all these courses that are crap WORTHLESS, credentialing people to be reading instructors when they don't even know this basic, basic stuff.

[Pen]

How many students and what sort of budget is there?

[Terabith]

Yeah, Wilson is not like Barton.  Barton is fairly open and go.  Wilson is absolutely NOT.  

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh this is interesting. I'm doing some googlefu looking for a Wilson Reading FB group, and the Iowa Decoding Dyslexia FB group is screaming super hard that Wilson tutors need to be trained to implement it with fidelity. That probably addresses what you're sensing when you look at the materials, that they're not open and go, that without getting the big picture people are going to be prone to screw it up. 

So that's a challenge in the ps, when they have turnover and people moving around and maybe need someone to do the work. I don't know how you'd get them trained. I can see why it's an issue. The more custom materials are the more powerful, but they also require the person to learn the method in order to customize.

The joke is, our state is now requiring 9 hours of grad level reading for an MED and offering all these courses that are crap WORTHLESS, credentialing people to be reading instructors when they don't even know this basic, basic stuff.

Yes, I was thinking about open and go vs. training vs. staff turnover vs. probably not getting any training, at least not this year. 

I agree with you about grad level reading training. I'd be interested to see what they have in their courses.

[Kanin]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, Wilson is not like Barton.  Barton is fairly open and go.  Wilson is absolutely NOT.  

I'm realizing that, lol. Waah. I'm trying to think about staff time/easiness of intervention, vs. how good the intervention is. Clearly, we need something more deocding-heavy than guided reading. But is that on the "lite" side (i.e. Recipe for Reading), or the heavy side, Wilson? 

What's better, a super program like Wilson that isn't done necessarily with fidelity, or something like Recipe for Reading, which is more of a get'er'done kinda program. Basic, not as comprehensive as Wilson, but more do-able?

Thinking... 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

How many students and what sort of budget is there?

We've got students in grades 2-6, with 2-4 kids in each group. Each group gets 2-2.25 hours a week, in 30 minute chunks mostly (random 45 minutes here and there). 

 Budget, not sure yet! We're going to have a meeting next week to talk about ideas, and get some budget numbers. I'm guessing a fairly low budget, which is why High Noon, or Recipe for Reading + some fluency materials, or workbooks, appeals. 

Strangely, Recipe for Reading is labeled as a Tier 2 or 3 intervention, but I'd say it's even more sparse than High Noon, which gets no label. Gah!

[Terabith]

I'm guessing it depends on the quality of the teacher.  A really awesome teacher who has a good understanding of the principles might be able to absolutely ROCK Wilson, even without the training or fidelity.  Someone who isn't a rock star might have better results with something like Recipe for Reading.  Honestly, my kid's dyslexia isn't super severe, and it didn't remediate spelling at all, but she got to significantly above grade level reading just with intense work from Webster's speller (and some other stuff).  Toe by Toe and Dancing Bears get good results even with kids with pretty serious issues, though they're UK based.  

[PeterPan]

54 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Recipe for Reading, which is more of a get'er'done kinda program. Basic, not as comprehensive as Wilson, but more do-able?

R4R is listed on that doc I linked and it's marked as tier 1 and 2. I thought the readers for it were quite nice and my ds had no issue with reading them. He's 9, well newly 10, so similar to your target age. 

I think the other thing to consider is that this is not these kids' stopping point. You're gonna do tier 2 this year and try to get them reading, yes? So say they burn through a ton of R4R, they use the (very nice, we liked them) alphabet readers series from R4R, and then they get ready for the next school year. Now what? THEN you're gonna bring in that next step like Spell Links, something for morphology. Anything where you're going oh my but this ought to be more sophisticated, etc., well maybe that's balanced out by realizing these boys are going to be in the system, next year they'll be ready to step it up. 

The thing with R4R is that the language is more simple. Target age starts much younger. So their readers have pictures, the language is simpler. Like if you compare the level 2 or 3 Sound Out Chapter books to the similar decoding level in R4R, these are going to be really different reading experiences. My ds could blow through that decoding level in R4R, reading the whole stack of books (18? I forget) in a day or two. With HN, he's gonna read a chapter and stop, chapter and stop. Same decoding level, but the minimum recommended age on HN's stuff is higher, meaning the language is higher and the supports like pictures are almost nill. Totally different experiences with the same decoding level. That would really depend on the kids.

What was the minimum age for Spell Links?

 

[Pen]

I wonder if you could get samples of possible programs and test them out with some (all?) of the children who need intervention over the course of a few months.  

It would not necessarily apply to children in years to come, but might help to get the best fit you can find for the current groups of children    Then maybe in a few years there would be funds to add a second program to meet a different sort of need    The reading specialist who first recommended HN to me worked at a big California school where they had more than one program available and could use different materials with different children  

 

I also recommend looking carefully at the exact progression and sequence of each program you are considering. Things like whether easily confused letters (from a dyslexia POV ) like b d pq or are introduced separately or at same time and so forth. 

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

R4R is listed on that doc I linked and it's marked as tier 1 and 2. I thought the readers for it were quite nice and my ds had no issue with reading them. He's 9, well newly 10, so similar to your target age. 

I think the other thing to consider is that this is not these kids' stopping point. You're gonna do tier 2 this year and try to get them reading, yes? So say they burn through a ton of R4R, they use the (very nice, we liked them) alphabet readers series from R4R, and then they get ready for the next school year. Now what? THEN you're gonna bring in that next step like Spell Links, something for morphology. Anything where you're going oh my but this ought to be more sophisticated, etc., well maybe that's balanced out by realizing these boys are going to be in the system, next year they'll be ready to step it up. 

The thing with R4R is that the language is more simple. Target age starts much younger. So their readers have pictures, the language is simpler. Like if you compare the level 2 or 3 Sound Out Chapter books to the similar decoding level in R4R, these are going to be really different reading experiences. My ds could blow through that decoding level in R4R, reading the whole stack of books (18? I forget) in a day or two. With HN, he's gonna read a chapter and stop, chapter and stop. Same decoding level, but the minimum recommended age on HN's stuff is higher, meaning the language is higher and the supports like pictures are almost nill. Totally different experiences with the same decoding level. That would really depend on the kids.

What was the minimum age for Spell Links?

 

 You are so right about the "big picture" going forward. The mind boggles! ?

[Kanin]

8 hours ago, Pen said:

I wonder if you could get samples of possible programs and test them out with some (all?) of the children who need intervention over the course of a few months.  

It would not necessarily apply to children in years to come, but might help to get the best fit you can find for the current groups of children    Then maybe in a few years there would be funds to add a second program to meet a different sort of need    The reading specialist who first recommended HN to me worked at a big California school where they had more than one program available and could use different materials with different children  

 

I also recommend looking carefully at the exact progression and sequence of each program you are considering. Things like whether easily confused letters (from a dyslexia POV ) like b d pq or are introduced separately or at same time and so forth. 

 

Good idea. We would definitely pilot something with a small group. Not sure if we could get multiple programs and test them out, but that would be awesome!

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

 

Good idea. We would definitely pilot something with a small group. Not sure if we could get multiple programs and test them out, but that would be awesome!

 

You might possibly be able to borrow some materials from a reading program at another school, or via inter library loan.  Some companies may have enough sample materials online to let children at the level of the samples try it out, and some may be willing to send a sample to a school or may offer a ___ day return if not satisfied. 

[Kanin]

Good thinking! I'll definitely try that. 

[Bookworm4]

15 hours ago, Terabith said:

I'm guessing it depends on the quality of the teacher.  A really awesome teacher who has a good understanding of the principles might be able to absolutely ROCK Wilson, even without the training or fidelity.  Someone who isn't a rock star might have better results with something like Recipe for Reading.  Honestly, my kid's dyslexia isn't super severe, and it didn't remediate spelling at all, but she got to significantly above grade level reading just with intense work from Webster's speller (and some other stuff).  Toe by Toe and Dancing Bears get good results even with kids with pretty serious issues, though they're UK based.  

 

I just thought I'd mention, in case someone searches for Toe by Toe on here (I did not that long ago and didn't find much), Toe by Toe now has a US version with US spellings in their book.  I have been considering purchasing it to use with my daughter that I just bought High Noon 2 to use with as well. 

[Kanin]

3 hours ago, Bookworm4 said:

 

I just thought I'd mention, in case someone searches for Toe by Toe on here (I did not that long ago and didn't find much), Toe by Toe now has a US version with US spellings in their book.  I have been considering purchasing it to use with my daughter that I just bought High Noon 2 to use with as well. 

I'll go look at it! Thanks!

[Kanin]

 

8 hours ago, Mainer said:

 

The thing with R4R is that the language is more simple. Target age starts much younger. So their readers have pictures, the language is simpler. Like if you compare the level 2 or 3 Sound Out Chapter books to the similar decoding level in R4R, these are going to be really different reading experiences. My ds could blow through that decoding level in R4R, reading the whole stack of books (18? I forget) in a day or two. With HN, he's gonna read a chapter and stop, chapter and stop. Same decoding level, but the minimum recommended age on HN's stuff is higher, meaning the language is higher and the supports like pictures are almost nill. Totally different experiences with the same decoding level. That would really depend on the kids.

I was looking at the R4R program, and there are a LOT of workbooks. I think 8 in total. That's expensive, and kinda clunky. The HN has 1 workbook for each of the 2 levels.

I think once you get through the basics of how-to-read, possibilities open up a lot more. You can do more with actual books, fluency, word roots, etc. like you were saying. The controlled readers are for a shorter period of time. I didn't see a place where HN books are correlated to the reading program. Perhaps they're separate. In any case, it's too bad that the HN reading program itself is quite affordable, but buying multiples of the controlled readers gets quite expensive, fast!

 

[Kanin]

Ah, I see now that HN has a student workbook AND a student book, which has readings. That's nice, considering 30 minutes goes by quickly. By the time you spell some words, read some words, do a sentence dictation, and work through a passage, 30 minutes is already up.

[PeterPan]

The R4R was coming across like grade levels or something, very spread out. Did there used to be an original form of the program that was one book, just the method, and not the leveled workbooks?

[Bookworm4]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I'll go look at it! Thanks!

The US version is here: https://toebytoeusa.com/

If you sign up for their VIP club (which is free), you can access some videos that demonstrate how the programs works and see some of the workbook pages.  It also has some downloadable forms as well in the VIP area.  I didn't get through all the videos last night, but the couple I watched were interesting.  From my little understanding, Toe by Toe takes a little different approach than OG programs that I have used and it seems to teach and some things in a different manner, but overall it looks like it would help with where my older DD is now (it would be a fail for younger DD who didn't pass the Barton screening).  However, it does look like it's designed to be used one on one and with each student having their own workbook/book.  It does use nonsense words which may help if your students are doing DIBLES testing.

ETA: Toe by Toes does not combine spelling and reading if you need a program that does both.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bookworm4

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

 

I was looking at the R4R program, and there are a LOT of workbooks. I think 8 in total. That's expensive, and kinda clunky. The HN has 1 workbook for each of the 2 levels.

I think once you get through the basics of how-to-read, possibilities open up a lot more. You can do more with actual books, fluency, word roots, etc. like you were saying. The controlled readers are for a shorter period of time. I didn't see a place where HN books are correlated to the reading program. Perhaps they're separate. In any case, it's too bad that the HN reading program itself is quite affordable, but buying multiples of the controlled readers gets quite expensive, fast!

 

 

The Sound Out Chapter books are meant to be able to be used either together or separately. 

Some people buy the readers for non struggling readers who are learning or to supplement another program. Some struggling readers may not need as much extra practice as the readers give on top of the selections in the main program. 

Iirc only the workbook parts are consumable.  

So if you don’t have more than 4 to 5 children per group and you don’t send readers and student books home, one TM and one set of 5 student books, plus 5 of each reader you think will be needed, plus an individual workbook for each child would be enough  .

(The classroom sets are sold in discounted sets of 5–so I am using 5 as the number even though I think you wrote that usually it is a teacher and 3 students.  So it would be something like $153 for teacher kit for level 1 to get started with 5 students. Plus $36 For 5 extra consumable workbooks  +   $117 for  a starter classroom set of 5 each of 6 readers ... if  you were to get both levels with 5 readers for an up to 5 students reading group at AB and C level that would be:   Double the teacher kit amount + another set of extra student consumable workbooks , and 3  class room sets of readers  ...    $153x2 + 36x2 + 117x3       I ? think  )

 

My son did need the extra practice that the Sound Out chapter books gave, at least at first. 

I made a pencil note in the Teacher Manual of where he would be ready for The Red Cap. After that it seemed to flow along with the readers giving extra practice on prior skills while we progressed daily on the main program introducing new material and with reviews (but less intensive practice than the chapter books have) . My son was pretty much done with the instructional materials on long vowels just as he finished the short vowel readers, etc.  

Before getting to the end of the Second Level (multi syllable words) Of HN, my son picked up a Rick  Riordan book and could read it with just a few words per page needing help. At that point his reading took off and became fun instead of a struggle. He read a few higher level HN chapter books (I had invested in them too soon, thinking his progress would be consistently slow and need all those components) just for fun or because the subject matter seemed interesting. This was more true for the nonfiction HN selections.

Easy fiction like Tom and Ricky was no longer of much interest once he could read The Lightning Thief or The Sound  and the Furry (spencer Quinn). 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Pen

[Terabith]

There's a very active parents of kids with dyslexia Facebook group that talks a LOT about Toe by Toe.  I haven't paid that much attention to it, because it doesn't teach spelling and my kid reads well, but I vaguely recall there being some chatter about the US version of Toe by Toe not being as good.  I don't remember what the issue was, but I'd join the group and ask, because a lot of US folks use the UK one even with the odd spellings and vocabulary.  Maybe it's just harder to find?  Or there isn't as much instruction at the early levels?  I really don't remember.  

[Pen]

20 hours ago, Mainer said:

Ah, I see now that HN has a student workbook AND a student book, which has readings. That's nice, considering 30 minutes goes by quickly. By the time you spell some words, read some words, do a sentence dictation, and work through a passage, 30 minutes is already up.

 

Yes. That’s true. I cannot recall how long it took to do a whole lesson, and with a group it would probably be more time than with a single child.  Could be if you went with HN there would not even be time for the chapter book readers  

Still, their chapter books are unusually good, so it would seem a shame to skip them entirely. Maybe if you went with HN, a few  chapter books could be gotten bit by bit as funds allowed for extra practice or for kids to check out or to use for SSR.  Or maybe some could be in school library for any child in school to check out, rather than resource room. Things like City Secrets and Weird Science could be interesting to hi/lo 4-6th graders perhaps, and also to normal ability readers who might  find the content interesting.

Possibly,  getting to choose a set of readers for school to own could even be a reward given to reading groups for dedication to hard work for ____ days.  But don’t look at the ever growing HN catalogue of chapter books and think you need to get everything!   (ETA this could apply to choosing books being a reward for hard work in any reading program you choose. If your area is one where kids don’t tend to have books of their own, possibly a book to keep could also be a special reward.)

Edited October 11, 2018 by Pen

[Storygirl]

On 10/7/2018 at 12:56 PM, Mainer said:

Apparently Tier 2 can be as long or as short as the school wants. It's not as tightly regulated as Special Ed. We are managing 30 minutes, 4 times a week. I do think that a lot can be accomplished in 30 minutes though. The main trouble I experience is seeing the kids get pulled from their regular class at a random time, and then returned at a random time, and they're expected to be well-regulated during it all. If there was a set "special services" block, that would be so much better... a time when EVERYONE is doing something - intervention, acceleration, study hall, etc. As it is, it's very confusing to all involved. I can only imagine how disjointed it feels to the kids.

My boys are in public school for the first time this year (middle school), and they have a period they call "advisory" for everyone. It's paired with lunch, so that half of the students eat, while the other half goes to advisory, and then they switch.

Mostly it seems to be study hall, but there are times when the advisory class will work on a project as a group. Or students can be called out during that time to work with a teacher on intervention.

(There is another optional period called "academic assist," which is a study hall with intervention assistance. But this is middle school, where students switch around for classes, and it happens to be a class period that some students can have in their schedule, while other students would have other electives.)

Anyway, if your school ever takes up the idea of having a period like what you describe, calling it Advisory might work. Actually, DD13, who goes to a private dyslexia school, has a period called Advisory daily, as well.

[PeterPan]

https://dyslexiaida.org/marysville-schools-leading-the-way-evolving-best-practices-for-learners-with-dyslexia/?fbclid=IwAR3mk6ELxnig3d1zjFQRW-XmqGysrlORqOmPERiAwJk23cCcvmgXQwHsG64

Thought this might interest you, since they're talking about how the school improved all their tiers of instruction. Looks like they went with SPIRE and OG.

Edited November 9, 2018 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

Thanks, that's really interesting! Good for them for going with what works. It must be so great when everyone is on the same page... and why not do OG for everyone? It just makes good sense.

A couple people here have started to talk about "completely re-vamping" how kids get services... There's some talk about adding an "intervention block" for all grades, and possibly a late bus for kids that need additional time. 

We ended up going with Fundations for Tier 2. I haven't managed to convince everyone to switch immediately, but we're gradually getting there.