Good "less intense" reading interventions

[Kanin]

So, public school is going well! I'm allowed to do whatever I want, use whatever I want for special ed, so I get to use LiPS to my heart's content. Yeah! Love it.

I'm also part of the RTI team, although mostly on the administrative side. I don't actually teach RTI students this year (probably will next year), but I share a room with the people who do the interventions. 

The problem is that (I think) the "tier 2" reading interventions stink. They use a guided reading program, which I guess is fine as far as guided reading goes, but... the more I see guided reading done, the more I think it's not sufficient for these kids, who could be 2 years behind in reading. I don't know what else to propose, though. It has to be different than special ed intervention, but I may be biased because I think OG things are the best. But... they just ARE the best, right? 

Has anyone heard of a good, explicit phonics program that is "less intense" than, say, Barton or Wilson? That SRA Decoding thing I mentioned before? I'm fine with leveled readers, but there needs to be some significant phonics instruction as well. The phonics part of the guided reading system we have is minimal. 

Or is RTI a joke? Do kids either need general ed reading instruction, or OG? Is there no middle ground? My previous school was ALL special ed, so I really have no experience with middle-of-the-road kids, and I don't want to suggest buying yet another reading program that's not going to do the job. 

[Lecka]

Are they using the Tier 2 component of a reading program?  Do they have a pre-test and then target instruction?

I don’t think every kid needs OG.  

Maybe you can look at samples of the Tier 2 parts of some different reading programs.  I have done this before to see what the extra instruction looks like.  

Iirc though Tier 2 is supposed to be kids who get extra help and so stay with their class. Not kids who are 2 years behind.

Should they be in Tier 3?  

Barton is considered a Tier 3 program I think.

Edit:  your school may have their own definitions for the tiers, but if what they are doing for Tier 2 isn’t sufficient in theory they move kids to Tier 3?  

Have you been there long enough to see if kids make progress?  

I wonder if the SRA decoding is Tier 3?   

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Okay, I don’t think RTI is a joke.

Is this school implementing it well right now?  That’s a different question.  

I get my RTI info basically off of Wikipedia so — I don’t know — but I do think a lot of RTI 2 is kids who are on level but need extra help to stay on level.  So I am surprised they are also 2 years behind.  It may depend on just what it means to be 2 years behind, though.

Definitley a criticism is that kids may not get sufficient help.  

But in *theory* with a lack of progress they would go to Tier 3 or special ed.  I think?  

I think a better Tier 2 intervention is one good thing.  

But the other thing is if kids aren’t making progress, move them on.

Or that is my impression from Wikipedia!  For what that is worth lol.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Also — I have this question/comment.

Is it that RTI can’t have any of the same curriculum?  Or is it that they can’t be in the same class or with the same teacher?  

[PeterPan]

Elleseff is sort of a gold mind. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/dear-reading-specialist-may-i-ask-you-a-few-questions/

There was a chart I had posted, and I can't find it right now. It had most of your major, solid quality intervention materials for reading organized by topic and tier, making it easy to realize what products might suit your needs. For instance, SPELL-LINKS is a tier 2 I think and is sort of similar in effect to doing SWR/WRTR, where you get reading and spelling improvement in one fell swoop. You remember the old days when we were like yeah, we just do this one thing and everything clicks. Well I think SPELL-Links is saying their data shows that. Or it was something else. (It's late, I'm tired.)

I'm with you that there's this sort of attitude in intervention materials almost like well we'll hang onto our crappy methods that DON'T WORK as long as we can and foist them, in new iterations onto tier 1 and 2, and MAYBE, just maybe, by the time we hit tier 3 we'll actually teach them how to read. So I can see why, internally, you're like whack whack hello could we just actually TEACH them?

Best as I can tell, even at the masters level with the grad reading courses the people are not being taught how to teach actual decoding. They dance around it with the implied phonics and guessing (Richardson) and tons of guided reading strategies. You also have the horrific issue of lack of language exposure (in the home because they're so busy in school). Right now, I'm watching threads where reading teachers are saying they have a 90 minute chunk and only know what to do for 45 that they're required to spend with a text, what should they do... And really, the schools are keeping kids so busy with STUFF that they're actually not getting the time to READ and authentically learn. That's what I think. Cuz I see threads where people are like oh I got radical with my class and I instituted 10-15 minutes of CHOICE READING a day. I'm like wow, there you go. Sure the data shows it's better than nothing, but with 90 minutes that's all we could swing? Most homeschoolers are shooting for an hour a day at least, and they're like 10 minutes, woo-woo.

So back to your real question. Have you seen Stephen Parker's stuff? They're all atwitter about him online because he has a new book. https://elink.io/p/free-phonics-books-98c2d4e  

Ok, I finally found it!!!!!!!! This was really bugging me! https://www.scribd.com/document/37038604/RTI-Intervention-List-01-09-1  This is a chart, not sure how recent, of intervention options for reading, spelling, phonemic awareness, etc., all labeled by tier. https://www.mtsu.edu/dyslexia/documents/intervention_list.pdf Trying to dig in on the root here. 

So going through that list, you might get some ideas. I think schools are pretty open to Wilson, and you can use Fundations, the chart is saying, for Title 1 instruction (which our district has) and some RTI and then bump to regular Wilson for Tiers 2 and 3. Some programs are targeting 4th and up, etc. https://www.learningbydesign.com  Here's Spell Links. This is a twist on OG, open and go (idiot-proof), with data behind it, super popular on some lists I'm haunting, and what it's doing is trying to use newer research to up the ante on how they're teaching. Check, but I think it's also bumping spelling. If I had tons of money, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Has diagnostic tools too so you can run the kids through and place. Maybe $350 to buy, not terribly expensive for a school. Moats is behind it. That's what I'm saying, that you start to see big names that are going behind major programs and those programs then get the funding to run research so they can then claim to be evidence-based, blah blah. 

I personally wouldn't have a problem with Wilson. I don't know how great SPELL-Links is, but it's super popular.

I've been looking at MED programs, and for real the unis are being required by the state to have people do 9 credits on reading, 6 of which are this guided reading junk, ie. implicit phonics and guessing. It's totally unbelievable. And they have NO classes on actual OG. I guess it would really miff them to know most homeschoolers manage to teach 95% of the kids that come through the homeschooling process to read with nothing more than a $17 guide, mercy.

[Terabith]

Honestly, tier 2 I would use Reading for All Learners, or Sound Foundations Bear Necessitiy, or Toe by Toe or Logic of English Foundations or All About Reading or Elizabeth’s phonics lessons. I could make a case for ABeCeDarian. I’d want something doing systematic phonics, but maybe not OG. 

Tier 3, go to Barton, Wilson, or Lips, depending on kid.  

Though I would run every kindergartener through Barton level 1 before doing any instruction.  And I have known schools that do Lips for the whole school.  Could be really dynamite.  

There are elements of guided reading that can be useful, but it’s literally the only thing most teachers know how to do.  I am all about literature rich classrooms, and language experiences and building comprehension and confidence.  But other than building oral language and listening skills and concepts of print/ sense of story, I prioritize phonics over anything else.  Hit that hard and fast.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Terabith

[Lecka]

As a parent I would prefer if they used an American program.  I would not care for a British program.  I just would not.  Maybe your school’s parents would not care.

I would prefer if they used a screening like Dibels for younger kids.

I would prefer to have targeted instruction. 

I *think* I would prefer for the regular teachers to use a Tier 1 program so that Tier 2 could actually coordinate with what they are doing in class!!!!!!!!  This is what I feel like after doing afterschooling.  It is so much better to coordinate than to be doing something separate and possibly using different ways to explain concepts!!!!  Or I think it would be, lol.  

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

https://assets.pearsonschool.com/asset_mgr/current/201611/ReadingStreetRTI REV_RTI.pdf

As far as “things that look good on the Internet,” I am drawn to things like this.  It looks pretty to me.  It’s  hard for me to know if I would have liked it if my kids went to a school that used it!

[Lecka]

As far as doing Barton level 1, another option might be https://www.amazon.com/Phonemic-Awareness-Young-Children-Curriculum/dp/1557663211#immersive-view_1538738809682

or Wilson Fundations.  

Just mentioning them, I think they are similar in their way, as far as their goals.  But they are (I think) Tier 1 with Tier 2 options (I think I don’t know) and then — it’s probably not as intensive as you need if you are working with older kids?  

I think it does depend a lot on prior instruction.  

Edit:  after thinking about it, Barton does sound good.  But maybe for kids who don’t pass a screening?  I don’t know.  

I think some kids would go through it easily and then some kids wouldn’t, I guess.  

But I think you can use the level post-tests to screen?  I like some kind of targeted instruction or kids can repeat the same thing over and over sometimes.  

It’s not the same situation, but this happens with my younger son, every new teacher starts really low with him, and it’s not very targeted until they get to know him.  Or — they give him some kind of placement test.  But when they “get to know him” they still will adjust to his level, but I think it’s still easy to just do the same things over and over and not know what should be targeted, when there is not as much time to spend with a student.  If there is not much time to spend with a student I think it’s hard to have that sense, compared to when the teacher is with the student a lot.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Kanin]

10 hours ago, Lecka said:

Okay, I don’t think RTI is a joke.

Is this school implementing it well right now?  That’s a different question.  

I get my RTI info basically off of Wikipedia so — I don’t know — but I do think a lot of RTI 2 is kids who are on level but need extra help to stay on level.  So I am surprised they are also 2 years behind.  It may depend on just what it means to be 2 years behind, though.

 

As far as I know, they are implementing the guided reading program well. It seems to me that there is a lot of guessing involved rather than decoding, and that they are asking kids to read words that they cannot decode. There are a couple of minutes devoted to decoding, and the rest to round-table reading of a book, discussion, etc. There are good systems in place for progress monitoring, although the progress appears pretty minimal.

At our school, Tier 1 is general ed, Tier 2 is "response to intervention," and Tier 3 is special ed. I do 90% of my day with special ed, and then I'm a co-administrator of this RTI program.

 

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Elleseff is sort of a gold mind. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/dear-reading-specialist-may-i-ask-you-a-few-questions/

There was a chart I had posted, and I can't find it right now. It had most of your major, solid quality intervention materials for reading organized by topic and tier, making it easy to realize what products might suit your needs. For instance, SPELL-LINKS is a tier 2 I think and is sort of similar in effect to doing SWR/WRTR, where you get reading and spelling improvement in one fell swoop. You remember the old days when we were like yeah, we just do this one thing and everything clicks. Well I think SPELL-Links is saying their data shows that. Or it was something else. (It's late, I'm tired.)

I'm with you that there's this sort of attitude in intervention materials almost like well we'll hang onto our crappy methods that DON'T WORK as long as we can and foist them, in new iterations onto tier 1 and 2, and MAYBE, just maybe, by the time we hit tier 3 we'll actually teach them how to read. So I can see why, internally, you're like whack whack hello could we just actually TEACH them?    Haha, yep, that's pretty much where I'm at ?

 

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Best as I can tell, even at the masters level with the grad reading courses the people are not being taught how to teach actual decoding. They dance around it with the implied phonics and guessing (Richardson) and tons of guided reading strategies. You also have the horrific issue of lack of language exposure (in the home because they're so busy in school). Right now, I'm watching threads where reading teachers are saying they have a 90 minute chunk and only know what to do for 45 that they're required to spend with a text, what should they do... And really, the schools are keeping kids so busy with STUFF that they're actually not getting the time to READ and authentically learn. That's what I think. Cuz I see threads where people are like oh I got radical with my class and I instituted 10-15 minutes of CHOICE READING a day. I'm like wow, there you go. Sure the data shows it's better than nothing, but with 90 minutes that's all we could swing? Most homeschoolers are shooting for an hour a day at least, and they're like 10 minutes, woo-woo. 

Oh man, you are right on here. The day is so FULL! Some kids just need to process by TALKING, and there's no time for them to get any talking time in. 

So back to your real question. Have you seen Stephen Parker's stuff? They're all atwitter about him online because he has a new book. https://elink.io/p/free-phonics-books-98c2d4e  I'll check that out!

Ok, I finally found it!!!!!!!! This was really bugging me! https://www.scribd.com/document/37038604/RTI-Intervention-List-01-09-1  This is a chart, not sure how recent, of intervention options for reading, spelling, phonemic awareness, etc., all labeled by tier. https://www.mtsu.edu/dyslexia/documents/intervention_list.pdf Trying to dig in on the root here. Yay, thanks! Re-re-research!

So going through that list, you might get some ideas. I think schools are pretty open to Wilson, and you can use Fundations, the chart is saying, for Title 1 instruction (which our district has) and some RTI and then bump to regular Wilson for Tiers 2 and 3. Some programs are targeting 4th and up, etc. https://www.learningbydesign.com  Here's Spell Links. This is a twist on OG, open and go (idiot-proof), with data behind it, super popular on some lists I'm haunting, and what it's doing is trying to use newer research to up the ante on how they're teaching. Check, but I think it's also bumping spelling. If I had tons of money, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Has diagnostic tools too so you can run the kids through and place. Maybe $350 to buy, not terribly expensive for a school. Moats is behind it. That's what I'm saying, that you start to see big names that are going behind major programs and those programs then get the funding to run research so they can then claim to be evidence-based, blah blah.  I'm intrigued by Spell-links. Everyone is so busy that an open-and-go thing would be ideal.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with Wilson. I don't know how great SPELL-Links is, but it's super popular. I love Wilson, too. 

I've been looking at MED programs, and for real the unis are being required by the state to have people do 9 credits on reading, 6 of which are this guided reading junk, ie. implicit phonics and guessing. It's totally unbelievable. And they have NO classes on actual OG. I guess it would really miff them to know most homeschoolers manage to teach 95% of the kids that come through the homeschooling process to read with nothing more than a $17 guide, mercy. Ugh. That's depressing. In my Special Ed M.Ed. program, there was a class on "teaching reading," which maybe had one week about decoding, and basically said to have kids say each sound aloud and then blend. ???

 

[Lecka]

No, that doesn’t sound like it’s enough phonics at all.  Or learning to blend.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Kanin]

40 minutes ago, Lecka said:

 If there is not much time to spend with a student I think it’s hard to have that sense, compared to when the teacher is with the student a lot.  

 

I think so, too - and when you have 3 kids for only 30 minutes, it's even tougher. RTI is hard! I think special ed is much easier, because I get kids on their own for a full hour or 45 minutes most of the time.

[Lecka]

Yes, I agree!  

I think for RTI it’s not good enough to just read together, with no assessment of what the skill gap is.  There just isn’t enough time. 

If the skill gap is phonics then.... do phonics!  

I have an impression like there are Tier 2 materials that will have little assessments and then maybe they say do 10 minutes out of 30 on phonics.... but 10 targeted minutes can be a lot!  

But if there’s no actual targeted teaching of phonics at all, or it’s repeating letter sounds when they should be on more advanced phonics, then it’s not targeted!

If they had an hour a day 1:1 what they are doing could work with a lot of kids (or some kids), but 1:3 for 30 minutes, plus kids may not even like reading, it’s just not intense enough.  

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[Dmmetler]

I really think that Bear Necessities/Dancing Bears FastTrack might be a good choice, if you have any aide support whatsoever for tier 2. It’s designed to be used in a tutorial/intervention setting, is very short and quick, and so scripted that it takes about one lesson to no longer need the script. It’s silly enough to appeal to older kids, and despite the name, doesn’t feel “babyish”.  

[Kanin]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So going through that list, you might get some ideas. I think schools are pretty open to Wilson, and you can use Fundations, the chart is saying, for Title 1 instruction (which our district has) and some RTI and then bump to regular Wilson for Tiers 2 and 3.

I will have to look at this. I know the school used Fundations for a time, but now they don't...? On the webpage, it says that there are daily, explicitly scripted lessons.

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I really think that Bear Necessities/Dancing Bears FastTrack might be a good choice, if you have any aide support whatsoever for tier 2. It’s designed to be used in a tutorial/intervention setting, is very short and quick, and so scripted that it takes about one lesson to no longer need the script. It’s silly enough to appeal to older kids, and despite the name, doesn’t feel “babyish”.  

I haven't seen these - I'll check them out. Thanks!

[Kanin]

I also think that the success or failure of any of these programs depends on the skill of the teacher, and, sadly, the amount of time a teacher has to prepare. I have a feeling that a lot of these fancier programs appeal because they require less prep from the teacher. 

My mom gave me an old reader from the early 1900's... and it was awesome! Simple, decodable words, sentences, and paragraphs, getting gradually harder. That's all I want!

Maybe Recipe for Reading would be enough, supplemented with some letter tile work. Maybe a lot of schools/teachers skip the phonemic awareness/letter tile manipulation stuff because it takes a long time, kids can get crazy with the tiles and goof off, etc. It's SO much easier teaching one at a time!

[Lecka]

I wonder what the story is with Fundations?  I wonder if you could use it?  

https://www.wilsonlanguage.com/programs/fundations/

It says it serves as Tier 2 also?  But I wonder if that would take too much time?  I don’t know. 

Fundations seems great to me, from seeing things on the Internet.  

[Lecka]

As far as Tier 1 ———— my older son actually had pretty decent instruction in the classroom.  He was never “hasn’t been taught.”  Well — not every child learns at the same rate.  Kids fall behind and then don’t understand the new material.  I think it’s supposed to be a smaller number this way with good instruction, though.

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Maybe Recipe for Reading would be enough, supplemented with some letter tile work. Maybe a lot of schools/teachers skip the phonemic awareness/letter tile manipulation stuff because it takes a long time, kids can get crazy with the tiles and goof off, etc. It's SO much easier teaching one at a time!

R4R is nice, and I like the readers I got. Just find out what tier it is. I'd be shocked if you're allowed to just use stuff willy nilly in a ps. This is charter? You probably have to have some documentation that it's recognized at a tier for what you're using it for.

1:1 is your tier 3, yes? Like there's a point where you're saying the obvious, that 1:1 is better, custom is better, and the school has to keep down the tier and the cost by pushing into groups, etc. as much as possible. 

What tier is High Noon? I got the HN 2 tm, and I like it for what it is. Now my ds is already reading fluently, and HN would not have gotten him there, not with any machinations or slowing down or amount of repetition. I think I saw a tier on it and it's not tier 3. And that not tier 3 is why it wouldn't have been enough for my ds. But with my memory, don't quote that. That's just how I judge, lol. 

https://www.highnoonbooks.com/listHNB3.tpl?cart=&cattrack=Reading_intervention&xHNBCATEGORY=Readers&xSKILLAREA=Reading_intervention&bobx=Reading%20Intervention&eqGROUPdatarq=item&Titlesumm=t&new_majorSortOrdersort=2&new_masterSortOrdersort=1  Story Friends is marked as tier 2, and it's ages 4-6. High Noon levels 1 and 2 aren't marked by tier and are grades 3 and up. Ooo, they're tooting their own horns a bit, but that Story Friends is actually research-based. But it's younger, don't know what grades you need.

Yeah, that's pretty outrageous if they had Wilson's Fundations, a totally solid program, and just stopped using it.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

R4R is nice, and I like the readers I got. Just find out what tier it is. I'd be shocked if you're allowed to just use stuff willy nilly in a ps. This is charter? You probably have to have some documentation that it's recognized at a tier for what you're using it for.

1:1 is your tier 3, yes? Like there's a point where you're saying the obvious, that 1:1 is better, custom is better, and the school has to keep down the tier and the cost by pushing into groups, etc. as much as possible. 

What tier is High Noon? I got the HN 2 tm, and I like it for what it is. Now my ds is already reading fluently, and HN would not have gotten him there, not with any machinations or slowing down or amount of repetition. I think I saw a tier on it and it's not tier 3. And that not tier 3 is why it wouldn't have been enough for my ds. But with my memory, don't quote that. That's just how I judge, lol. 

 https://www.highnoonbooks.com/listHNB3.tpl?cart=&cattrack=Reading_intervention&xHNBCATEGORY=Readers&xSKILLAREA=Reading_intervention&bobx=Reading%20Intervention&eqGROUPdatarq=item&Titlesumm=t&new_majorSortOrdersort=2&new_masterSortOrdersort=1  Story Friends is marked as tier 2, and it's ages 4-6. High Noon levels 1 and 2 aren't marked by tier and are grades 3 and up. Ooo, they're tooting their own horns a bit, but that Story Friends is actually research-based. But it's younger, don't know what grades you need.

Yeah, that's pretty outrageous if they had Wilson's Fundations, a totally solid program, and just stopped using it.

Weeeell... I'm pretty sure they used Fundations at some point, because there are a bunch of Fundations materials/posters around, Fundations letter tiles, etc. I definitely have to get the whole story on that. I'm so new that I don't even know what they use in the general ed classroom.

The school is public, but it's not in a district, it's its own entity. So... I wouldn't say I can do things willy nilly, but the principal is pretty openminded. And Tier 2 interventions are nowhere near as regulated as special ed. Tier 2 has individual goals for the kids that are progress monitored, but it's not like the goals are IEPs. Parents don't have the same involvement with Tier 2 at all, and don't have the same rights if their children aren't making progress. They can ask for a special ed evaluation, but if Tier 2 goals aren't met, there aren't repercussions. Well, I suppose there must be, eventually, if enough kids aren't moving forward, but it doesn't have the same feeling as special ed at all. 

Anyway, it's been interesting so far! 

I'll go look at High Noon. You know I love those guys ❤️

[Kanin]

Just checked out that link you sent. Looks pretty decent! I don't see any multisensory aspect to it, though, but that might be a plus in some situations where the needs aren't as intense. It also looks extremely open-and-go.

[Pen]

I didn’t read the whole thread— how old/what grade children?

[Lecka]

I’m going to be honest and say for my kids, once they can blend multisensory as far as tiles has not been as important.  I think multi sensory as in “say the sounds while writing the letters as writing the words” is in a lot more, and it’s considered multi sensory even though it’s not tiles.  I do really like tiles also.  I really do.  But it’s not the only way to be multi sensory.  Especially for kids who are comfortable with writing!  

I think High Noon looks like a really good program.  

Edited October 6, 2018 by Lecka

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Pen said:

I didn’t read the whole thread— how old/what grade children?

Grades K-5, but right now mostly 3rd and 4th graders.

[Kanin]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I’m going to be honest and say for my kids, once they can blend multisensory as far as tiles has not been as important.  I think multi sensory as in “say the sounds while writing the letters as writing the words” is in a lot more, and it’s considered multi sensory even though it’s not tiles.  I do really like tiles also.  I really do.  But it’s not the only way to be multi sensory.  Especially for kids who are comfortable with writing!  

I think High Noon looks like a really good program.  

Good point about the tiles - that stage doesn't last forever. 

I also like the look of High Noon! It's not that expensive, either. I wish there was a High Noon store near me so I could browse through their stuff. ?

[PeterPan]

High Noon is really just like the samples. You'll notice it includes work on comprehension and spelling, which are nice additions. But it's going to be just like the samples. 

If you want to get a little wild, I'm uber crazy for Spelfabet these days. It would make a good supplement or homework or fill out the last 5 minutes of a session or whatever. 

[Pen]

For the older kids of the group I would strongly consider the High Noon reading program with the kids grouped by level for Intervention — Reading with teacher when it is their level’s turn, or using their workbooks while others are with the teacher for oral reading.  If there were lots of different levels I’d probably make use of more workbooks (such as ones that go with the readers) and computer assistance  if available  

For K to 1st (and maybe even some 2nd graders) I would consider Montessori reading methods as a start.  My nephews went to Montessori and I was very impressed with the reading method — neither nephew has an any LD  , but it was very multi sensory and hands-on in a way that I think could work well for many K-1st level children. 

If there is now HN for younger levels,  I would for sure look at that!  I think as a teacher you could probably get sample books sent to look at them —and I think they are less busy when they aren’t in the middle of the main rush of school orders in August to September  

 I have heard good things about Modern Curriculum Press Phonics program for K -1st level, though when I looked at what I could find of samples the progression seemed odd to me — all consonants followed by all vowels. Or not so much odd, as what my son’s Waldorf did (though without the art and major multi sensory approach) which did not help him learn to read at all—and surprisingly did not even teach him his letter sounds effectively.  However, some of the mcp *readers* seem good for little kids. And the animal theme covers of the main books starting with koalas look appealing for little ones. 

Keep in mind also that Talkingfingers: Read Write Type works on phonics and reading along with typing skills. 

 

If if you were to end up with more older children and ones who have mastered the basics you might want to look at Language!  But my impression was that even though it officially starts for 3rd grade level students, it may be a better fit for something like 6th graders reading at 3rd grade level. Not 3rd graders reading at 1st grade level. 

[Pen]

If all they get is 30 minutes 3 times per week I don’t think it is enough time regardless of program and even if teacher is skilled. 

[Pen]

22 hours ago, Mainer said:

he school is public, but it's not in a district, it's its own entity. So... I wouldn't say I can do things willy nilly, but the principal is pretty openminded. And Tier 2 interventions are nowhere near as regulated as special ed. Tier 2 has individual goals for the kids that are progress monitored, but it's not like the goals are IEPs. Parents don't have the same involvement with Tier 2 at all, and don't have the same rights if their children aren't making progress. They can ask for a special ed evaluation, but if Tier 2 goals aren't met, there aren't repercussions. Well, I suppose there must be, eventually, if enough kids aren't moving forward, but it doesn't have the same feeling as special ed at all. 

 

 

Is there any possibility of getting the parents involved so as to be able to have additional time on reading at home?

For example if using HN, maybe kids could take their own workbooks home and practice phonics and other reading that was introduced by the teacher at school daily with parental assistance. And maybe the leveled readers could be checked out for use at home as well as in school. 

If kids have internet access at home maybe they could be signed up for Talkingfingers and work on that at home. 

I see no way that they can become good readers unless they have enough time devoted to it in addition to good programs. 

Can school library and librarian help to give more time to reading? Can older kids in the area who are good readers get community service volunteer hours for helping? Especially if there are kids who can not get parental help?

Im not that much inclined to discuss the “tier” aspect which seems to me more a bureaucratic designation than an important part of reading. There is a lot of research now on how kids learn to read. Phonics seems to clearly be a basic part of it for almost all good readers.  However other strategies like previewing and predicting ( part of “guided reading “ I think) can help. I think such strategies should be mostly *after* basics of phonics are mastered: much better at around the switch to “reading to learn” level, not at basic “beginning learning to read” level.  Such strategies are Great to help overview a course textbook, But not great as  a guessing system to make up for  illiteracy. 

[Pen]

On 10/5/2018 at 5:13 AM, Mainer said:

 

I think so, too - and when you have 3 kids for only 30 minutes, it's even tougher. RTI is hard! I think special ed is much easier, because I get kids on their own for a full hour or 45 minutes most of the time.

 

I think I somehow thought it was 30 minutes 3 times per week. Even if it is 30 minutes 5 times per week, I don’t think that is enough. But it may be plenty for a single intense session if the session could be perhaps 20 minutes of phonics and 10 minutes of strategies and comprehension skills work for the children weak on phonics— and then work (read, workbook, computer program) alone time or work with another adult or teen volunteer or something at another time in the day. 

I now recall that a reason some schools like Language! is it has computer and workbook components also available.  And was officially approved by most states, while last I heard HN was only approved in California.  But it has been years since I checked that and could be different now. 

[Kanin]

On 10/6/2018 at 10:56 AM, Pen said:

For the older kids of the group I would strongly consider the High Noon reading program with the kids grouped by level for Intervention — Reading with teacher when it is their level’s turn, or using their workbooks while others are with the teacher for oral reading.  If there were lots of different levels I’d probably make use of more workbooks (such as ones that go with the readers) and computer assistance  if available  

For K to 1st (and maybe even some 2nd graders) I would consider Montessori reading methods as a start.  My nephews went to Montessori and I was very impressed with the reading method — neither nephew has an any LD  , but it was very multi sensory and hands-on in a way that I think could work well for many K-1st level children. 

If there is now HN for younger levels,  I would for sure look at that!  I think as a teacher you could probably get sample books sent to look at them —and I think they are less busy when they aren’t in the middle of the main rush of school orders in August to September  

 I have heard good things about Modern Curriculum Press Phonics program for K -1st level, though when I looked at what I could find of samples the progression seemed odd to me — all consonants followed by all vowels. Or not so much odd, as what my son’s Waldorf did (though without the art and major multi sensory approach) which did not help him learn to read at all—and surprisingly did not even teach him his letter sounds effectively.  However, some of the mcp *readers* seem good for little kids. And the animal theme covers of the main books starting with koalas look appealing for little ones. 

Keep in mind also that Talkingfingers: Read Write Type works on phonics and reading along with typing skills. 

 

If if you were to end up with more older children and ones who have mastered the basics you might want to look at Language!  But my impression was that even though it officially starts for 3rd grade level students, it may be a better fit for something like 6th graders reading at 3rd grade level. Not 3rd graders reading at 1st grade level. 

 

I think I agree with you, Pen - I keep looking at High Noon and their stuff looks great (as always). I also love that the recommended teacher prep time for the reading intervention is only FIVE minutes! I hate that prep time has to be a consideration, but it does... and HN always give a lot of bang for the buck (or prep minutes). They do have a curriculum for younger students as well.

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I think I somehow thought it was 30 minutes 3 times per week. Even if it is 30 minutes 5 times per week, I don’t think that is enough. But it may be plenty for a single intense session if the session could be perhaps 20 minutes of phonics and 10 minutes of strategies and comprehension skills work for the children weak on phonics— and then work (read, workbook, computer program) alone time or work with another adult or teen volunteer or something at another time in the day. 

I now recall that a reason some schools like Language! is it has computer and workbook components also available.  And was officially approved by most states, while last I heard HN was only approved in California.  But it has been years since I checked that and could be different now. 

Apparently Tier 2 can be as long or as short as the school wants. It's not as tightly regulated as Special Ed. We are managing 30 minutes, 4 times a week. I do think that a lot can be accomplished in 30 minutes though. The main trouble I experience is seeing the kids get pulled from their regular class at a random time, and then returned at a random time, and they're expected to be well-regulated during it all. If there was a set "special services" block, that would be so much better... a time when EVERYONE is doing something - intervention, acceleration, study hall, etc. As it is, it's very confusing to all involved. I can only imagine how disjointed it feels to the kids.

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Mainer said:

 

I think I agree with you, Pen - I keep looking at High Noon and their stuff looks great (as always). I also love that the recommended teacher prep time for the reading intervention is only FIVE minutes! I hate that prep time has to be a consideration, but it does... and HN always give a lot of bang for the buck (or prep minutes). They do have a curriculum for younger students as well.

 

Btw if they are doing HN take a use what works approach to it, and if a particular student is not helped by or is confused by something that is not a key part of reading let it go. Specific example: there was something that the instructions said the kids were supposed to do for maybe sound discrimination )?) I cannot recall now, but they were supposed to move their hands in some way if ______ .  (And it was also perhaps a form of incorporating multi sensory) My ds could not hear or figure out what ever it was , but made steady progress without that. So I just dropped that one part each day.   If in a group where it helped some of the kids, I’d keep it, but not insist if it didn’t make sense for someone that that person do it. (I called the author a couple of times to get implementation help)

[Pen]

36 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Apparently Tier 2 can be as long or as short as the school wants. It's not as tightly regulated as Special Ed. We are managing 30 minutes, 4 times a week. I do think that a lot can be accomplished in 30 minutes though.

I totally agree that a lot can be done in 30 minutes or even in 15. In fact I think more short sessions do more than single long sessions.  3 15 minute sessions IME did more than 1 60 minute session  

However, I don’t think that for many a struggling reader at 3rd or 4th grade 30 minutes 4 x /wk is enough to catch up. Moreover, if non struggling reading peers are doing far more than that just for pleasure, the gap widens.   I know you have more experience than I do, but I think I read this was found to be true in research, not just as personal opinion. 

36 minutes ago, Mainer said:

 

The main trouble I experience is seeing the kids get pulled from their regular class at a random time, and then returned at a random time, and they're expected to be well-regulated during it all. If there was a set "special services" block, that would be so much better... a time when EVERYONE is doing something - intervention, acceleration, study hall, etc. As it is, it's very confusing to all involved. I can only imagine how disjointed it feels to the kids.

 

That sounds like it would be wonderful!  Could it be done?  At our local elementary school they put all math classes at same time so kids can go to whatever level class group they need. 

Having a same time block for “special services “ sounds great!!!!  I think that could work really well for everyone .  

Also maybe there could be a same time block for Language Arts : Reading, when everyone would go to a group that fits their reading / LA level. 

[Lecka]

I also think a lot can get done in 30 minutes.  

I don’t like the disjointed thing.  One time my older son missed getting a birthday cupcake while he was pulled for OT.  It was definitely a fluke thing, but still!  Except part of me wonders if it really happened because I know that teacher usually always had cupcakes be in the last 20 minutes, and that wasn’t when he had OT.  He thinks it happened, though.  

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I totally agree that a lot can be done in 30 minutes or even in 15. In fact I think more short sessions do more than single long sessions.  3 15 minute sessions IME did more than 1 60 minute session  

However, I don’t think that for many a struggling reader at 3rd or 4th grade 30 minutes 4 x /wk is enough to catch up. Moreover, if non struggling reading peers are doing far more than that just for pleasure, the gap widens.   I know you have more experience than I do, but I think I read this was found to be true in research, not just as personal opinion. 

I totally agree with you about catching up... which is why I'm pretty skeptical of the whole RTI system in the first place.

 

That sounds like it would be wonderful!  Could it be done?  At our local elementary school they put all math classes at same time so kids can go to whatever level class group they need. 

 Having a same time block for “special services “ sounds great!!!!  I think that could work really well for everyone .  

 Also maybe there could be a same time block for Language Arts : Reading, when everyone would go to a group that fits their reading / LA level. 

I think it could be done eventually, but schedules are pretty complex here. I don't know how they came up with the schedule they have now. It's bananas! It would be SO great if all the LA and math classes were at the same time so everyone could go to the right level class. I think that would be a lot better than sticking with your grade and then having to do RTI. They could even have an hour long class, 30 minutes of which are decoding, and they could switch classes for that. Then, they could go for 30 more minutes of comprehension at an appropriate level, too. That would be my ideal! Writing, too. That's a lot of switching, so perhaps some kind of block schedule would be better. I'm sure it's possible!

 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I also think a lot can get done in 30 minutes.  

I don’t like the disjointed thing.  One time my older son missed getting a birthday cupcake while he was pulled for OT.  It was definitely a fluke thing, but still!  Except part of me wonders if it really happened because I know that teacher usually always had cupcakes be in the last 20 minutes, and that wasn’t when he had OT.  He thinks it happened, though.  

Aw, missing the birthday cupcake. What a bummer. ? 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Btw if they are doing HN take a use what works approach to it, and if a particular student is not helped by or is confused by something that is not a key part of reading let it go. Specific example: there was something that the instructions said the kids were supposed to do for maybe sound discrimination )?) I cannot recall now, but they were supposed to move their hands in some way if ______ .  (And it was also perhaps a form of incorporating multi sensory) My ds could not hear or figure out what ever it was , but made steady progress without that. So I just dropped that one part each day.   If in a group where it helped some of the kids, I’d keep it, but not insist if it didn’t make sense for someone that that person do it. (I called the author a couple of times to get implementation help)

Ah, ok, I'll keep an eye out for it. Hoping the admin goes for HN ? It sounds much simpler than Fundations, but of course, would want to do what's best. Unfortunately, if teacher prep time is really minimal, then an open-and-go program might be the best, even if it's not as strong as a more teacher-intense version. Sometimes you just gotta do what will actually get done.  I have no clue which is better, HN or Fundations, or if they're the same quality, but nevertheless, done pretty well is better than not done at all. 

[PeterPan]

Are you sure you're looking at the same programs? High Noon Reading is aimed at 3rd grade and up (and it really is for those ages/grades, not younger), and Fundations is for younger kids. This chart https://www.wilsonlanguage.com/programs/fundations/  is saying Fundations would be used as tier 1 and 2 for grades K-3 but that tier 2 for grades 4-12 switches to their Just Words. Then tier 3 kids switch to the regular Wilson program.

So High Noon Reading would be equivalent in target range to the Wilson Just Words and the Story Friends from HN/ATP would parallel Wilson's Fundations.

Wilson is going to be a stronger program, because it's multi-sensory with a strong OG foundation. I haven't even seen that HN is even marked with a tier. Their Story Friends program is, yes, but actual HN Reading I'm not sure about. Maybe look into that, because I'd want to know WHY it was not marked, what's missing, what's incomplete. Just because we, as teachers, choose to use it as part of our complete approach doesn't mean there's not a reason it's not marked with a tier for intervention. What were they looking for and why is it not labeled for a tier?

Or, put another way, if I were the parent and that were my kid in your tier 2 intervention, I'd be pissy if you weren't using the best materials for tier 2 or were using something not marked for tier 2. That to me is how I would advocate, and I'd be really upset. And I own HN and like it and I'm not saying anything bad about it. I'm just asking why it's not marked for a tier if it's intervention of that level. It's a reasonable question to ask. 

What are they using for tier 3? Clearly Wilson wants you to have that continuity, where the methodology is the same across all the people doing intervention, hence the tiers to their materials. And somebody at the school had that vision, hence buying it. It almost seems like you're saying tier 2 at your school gets short shrift.

I missed something on the time slots btw. Why are people complaining about 30 minutes a day? I mean, if it were ONCE A WEEK for 30 minutes, I'd get it. But every day for 30 minutes? If you go in fully prepped, 30 minutes can kick butt! Is it too many kids and that's why it's too short?  I've got an OT whining that her sessions are so short and that's why nothing is getting done. I'm like no, the issue is you. But, I don't know how those sessions roll. 1:1, 30 minutes is a ton. 1:3, that would take a lot more prep to be organized and accomplish a lot. But like with this OT, I think the skill set is low, not the time slot.

[Kanin]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Are you sure you're looking at the same programs? High Noon Reading is aimed at 3rd grade and up (and it really is for those ages/grades, not younger), and Fundations is for younger kids. This chart https://www.wilsonlanguage.com/programs/fundations/  is saying Fundations would be used as tier 1 and 2 for grades K-3 but that tier 2 for grades 4-12 switches to their Just Words. Then tier 3 kids switch to the regular Wilson program.

I saw that, thanks. Definitely needs more investigating. 

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

So High Noon Reading would be equivalent in target range to the Wilson Just Words and the Story Friends from HN/ATP would parallel Wilson's Fundations.

Wilson is going to be a stronger program, because it's multi-sensory with a strong OG foundation. I haven't even seen that HN is even marked with a tier. Their Story Friends program is, yes, but actual HN Reading I'm not sure about. Maybe look into that, because I'd want to know WHY it was not marked, what's missing, what's incomplete. Just because we, as teachers, choose to use it as part of our complete approach doesn't mean there's not a reason it's not marked with a tier for intervention. What were they looking for and why is it not labeled for a tier?

Or, put another way, if I were the parent and that were my kid in your tier 2 intervention, I'd be pissy if you weren't using the best materials for tier 2 or were using something not marked for tier 2. That to me is how I would advocate, and I'd be really upset. And I own HN and like it and I'm not saying anything bad about it. I'm just asking why it's not marked for a tier if it's intervention of that level. It's a reasonable question to ask. 

I also wonder why it's not marked with a tier. And yes, definitely need some strong reasoning behind why we're choosing HN, if we do. I'm going to email HN and ask. It's curious why it didn't get a tier though, and some of their other stuff does.

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

What are they using for tier 3? Clearly Wilson wants you to have that continuity, where the methodology is the same across all the people doing intervention, hence the tiers to their materials. And somebody at the school had that vision, hence buying it. It almost seems like you're saying tier 2 at your school gets short shrift.

About Tier 3... haha. Well, I'm currently the one and only SPED teacher for elementary. It's a small school. Right now I'm using LiPS and Wilson. And yes, I am saying Tier 2 gets short shrift at the school. Not intentionally, but through lack of experience, I think. People have great intentions but not a whole lot of experience with kids with reading challenges.

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

 I missed something on the time slots btw. Why are people complaining about 30 minutes a day? I mean, if it were ONCE A WEEK for 30 minutes, I'd get it. But every day for 30 minutes? If you go in fully prepped, 30 minutes can kick butt! Is it too many kids and that's why it's too short?  I've got an OT whining that her sessions are so short and that's why nothing is getting done. I'm like no, the issue is you. But, I don't know how those sessions roll. 1:1, 30 minutes is a ton. 1:3, that would take a lot more prep to be organized and accomplish a lot. But like with this OT, I think the skill set is low, not the time slot.

Agreed, 30 minutes can kick butt if everything is super prepped. It's usually 1:2 or 1:3, so prep is more challenging. And you can picture three 9-year-old boys causing a certain amount of distraction for each other ?

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Ah, ok, I'll keep an eye out for it. Hoping the admin goes for HN ? It sounds much simpler than Fundations

 

They aren’t comparable programs. Fundations is for K to 2nd or 3rd. HN (other than if you found a new part of HN for younger students) is for around age 7 (minimum unless a very unusual student with maybe extreme 2E dyslexia/highly gifted) and up. 

Type size, white space, pictures, subject matter... all are keyed to the different age target groups. 

HN Reading Intervention Program May be well suited to rambunctious 9yo boys—as much as any program can be (my son was one).  It is not suited to a kindergartner. 

MAnd from what I saw of Fundations samples, it is not suited to a rambunctious 9yo. 

You may need more than o   Ne program 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Pen

[PeterPan]

52 minutes ago, Mainer said:

And you can picture three 9-year-old boys causing a certain amount of distraction for each other ?

Oh that's such a hoot. But that really brings it to the point. If it were your 9 yo boy who couldn't read and were in there (that's why they're in there, right? they can't read), what would you want? Like if you were saying the issue was comprehension, you'd do something else probably. But if in reality these are boys who are falling through the cracks and literally don't read (hence their behaviors and lack of ability to do something productive or responsive), what would you want? If it was your kid?

You'd probably want it mature enough, not baby-ish. You'd want it within reach. You'd want it interesting. And you'd want it multi-sensory, preferably with some MOTION and rowdy boy games. You'd probably hope that the teacher would find a way for them to come out loving reading and making it uber-hip, which of course is impossible. I have no clue. We had an OT make handwriting uber-useful and fascinating to my ds. It took some work, because she prepped spy missions for every single session. I kid you not. But the woman was actually worth the $140 an hour she billed at. I'm getting ready to fire the fat lazy open and go OT who doesn't bother.

If they were your kids, that's what you'd wish, that they thought it was hip and came out realizing they wanted to read something and actually could.

[Kanin]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

They aren’t comparable programs. Fundations is for K to 2nd or 3rd. HN (other than if you found a new part of HN for younger students) is for around age 7 (minimum unless a very unusual student with maybe extreme 2E dyslexia/highly gifted) and up. 

Type size, white space, pictures, subject matter... all are keyed to the different age target groups. 

Huh. I need to go to some curriculum fair, like what PeterPan talked about a while ago. Really would like to flip through materials instead of reading about it on the internet.

It's silly maybe, but HN has samples available on the internet, and Wilson doesn't... I mean, I can find samples with some digging, but with HN they are right there.

[PeterPan]

The HN reading selections are really boy-friendly. Now I'm looking at the level 2, not 1, but I'm just saying they're conspicuously boy-friendly. The teacher should make some effort and bring it to life with games, movement, those Wilson tiles, etc. 

[PeterPan]

The reading levels (syntax, sentence length, language complexity) are what is driving the recommended grade levels for these materials. If the publisher is giving a minimum for HN, I'd be inclined to agree with it. 

[Kanin]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh that's such a hoot. But that really brings it to the point. If it were your 9 yo boy who couldn't read and were in there (that's why they're in there, right? they can't read), what would you want? Like if you were saying the issue was comprehension, you'd do something else probably. But if in reality these are boys who are falling through the cracks and literally don't read (hence their behaviors and lack of ability to do something productive or responsive), what would you want? If it was your kid?

You'd probably want it mature enough, not baby-ish. You'd want it within reach. You'd want it interesting. And you'd want it multi-sensory, preferably with some MOTION and rowdy boy games. You'd probably hope that the teacher would find a way for them to come out loving reading and making it uber-hip, which of course is impossible. I have no clue. We had an OT make handwriting uber-useful and fascinating to my ds. It took some work, because she prepped spy missions for every single session. I kid you not. But the woman was actually worth the $140 an hour she billed at. I'm getting ready to fire the fat lazy open and go OT who doesn't bother.

If they were your kids, that's what you'd wish, that they thought it was hip and came out realizing they wanted to read something and actually could.

Haha, oh they're a hoot all right ? Very cute and high-energy.  You're right about what I would want if it were my child. Part of the reason I think Fountas & Pinnell kinda stinks is the basal readers are soooooooo booooorrrring. Like, if you're 9, you have no choice but to goof off because otherwise you'll be bored to sleep. At least Fundations/Just Words or HN is fast-paced, doing something different every few minutes. F+P doesn't have much interaction other than reading. At least with something different, kids get a whiteboard/markers, tiles, workbook, something to DO. Moving games are even better.

I LOVE your $140/hour OT! Spy missions! I bet you wanted to hug that woman each and every session. What happened to her?

[Kanin]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The HN reading selections are really boy-friendly. Now I'm looking at the level 2, not 1, but I'm just saying they're conspicuously boy-friendly. The teacher should make some effort and bring it to life with games, movement, those Wilson tiles, etc. 

That's exactly why I fell in love with High Noon years ago. I read some Tom & Ricky books with a 7 year old, and he LOVED, LOVED, LOVED them. His mom went and bought every single book. That's a LOT of Tom & Ricky! And he read each one! And then he even incorporated the books into his pretend play. It was just so, so awesome for him.

Other decodable books just stink. They just do! Thanks for telling me that Level 2 is boy-friendly. I'm guessing Level 1 is, too, at least based on past HN purchases. 

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I LOVE your $140/hour OT! Spy missions! I bet you wanted to hug that woman each and every session. What happened to her?

Yes, and we should probably just call and see if she's back. She had the audacity to want maternity leave with her baby, lol. I'd have to drive to another practice, but yeah she was pretty golden. She was also ABA trained, so basically she could do anything and it was worthwhile just for the conversation, for the care in interaction. She had him working from lists, collaborating, making choices. It was amazing. Now we have the fat lazy OT that they're trying to talk me out of firing.