Sports Parents WWYD? (and venting)

[shinyhappypeople]

So, 13 yo DD plays rec league soccer.  DH is the coach.  He knows his stuff (played competitively, etc.) and his team is very good, lots of talented players.  They don't cheat, don't intentionally foul, etc. Also, I do understand that soccer is a contact sport (within limits). But, we're running into other teams and coaches who take things way too seriously and aren't afraid to cross the line.  The refs are USELESS.

Team "C" - coach has kept the same team for a few years and is widely known for teaching his girls how to foul and get away with it, which we experienced firsthand last week.  Our girls were repeatedly kicked, tripped, and shoved in front of the refs, without consequence.  This isn't an issue of the ref missing a call (I understand that happens).  They just weren't calling personal fouls.  A dad finally politely asked the refs to start calling personal fouls and they called two... and then overlooked the rest. Also, we're allowed to field 11 players at a time.  At one point Team C fielded 12. Useless refs.  Or maybe they're just bad at math.  Oh, and "C" Coach would sub in players at the wrong time.  It's like he feels that he's been around for so long that the rules don't apply to him.   OK, one last complaint about him: we were "home team" so we brought the balls.  HIS asst. coach started gathering our balls and claimed they were Team C's.  Uh... no.  I found 3 of our balls in their bag (DH had labeled ours).  

Team "A" - today's team.  Again: personal fouls like crazy, tripping, shoving, etc.  just like with Team C.  Except this time NONE were called the whole game against Team A.  It was insane.  At one point the coach was yelling from the sidelines, "SHOVE THEM!"  (Y'all thought I was kidding about useless refs.  Nope.)  It gets worse: during the final minute or two of the game, one of A's players intentionally tripped one of our players to get possession of the ball (it was an obvious foul).  Our girl fell and yelled, "Hey, foul!" and the opposing coach yelled at OUR player (exact quote): "Stop being a pussy crybaby."  What.the.......  

So, questions:

(1) What the heck is wrong with these coaches?  This is REC league soccer.  REC as in RECREATIONAL!  Win or lose, let's keep it fair and fun and have a good time. I also kind of wonder what the heck is wrong with the parents who allow their kids to be coached like that year after year.  Is winning a REC LEAGUE soccer game so important that you don't care if your kid has to foul, cheat, etc. to do it.  Good grief, people.  Get a grip.

(2) WWYD?  Part of DH wants to report them but the other part (the realistic part) knows that our team will be targeted even harder if he does this.  And, let's keep it real.  The league already knows about Coach C and probably Coach A.  It's just a local league that covers our county, not affiliated with FIFA or anything, so there's no way to go above the league president's head.  (ETA: actually they are a part of a regional league, but I don't really know much about it except its name.  Googling now...)

(3) How can DH encourage his team to still enjoy the game?  These are excellent players, but it's frustrating when the other team cheats, gets away with it, and no one seems to care.

Next week we play against a team that's not very strong, BUT the coach is a decent human being and his girls play by the rules.  It will be a fun, fair game.  After that it's Team C  again and then other teams we haven't dealt with yet.

What really sucks is this: DD was on a losing team last fall.  Literally lost every game.  BUT she had fun!  She saw huge improvement in her soccer skills and loved playing the game.  So, despite not winning, it was still really fun for her.  Today, even though her team has won games this season, she told me that soccer isn't really fun anymore, "I'm not sure why," and she isn't sure she wants to play anymore.  ?

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[rebcoola]

Does your league not have a way to rate or complain about the referees?  Are they paid or provided by the team I would be going after them if I could.  Even the  refs for our little kids rec league are trained and paid and held responsible for their actions.  

[mom@shiloh]

How many teams are in the league?  Do other coaches feel the same way?  Could you band together to demand better reffing?  

I think the video idea is a great one, but after you have evidence, you should try to work as a group to get things changed. Strength in numbers, you know.

[Tenaj]

I think unless there's an oversight committee that can put pressure on the refs there's not much you can do.  One of the issues may be that the very coaches whom you are frustrated with may be part of the organizations leadership.  We've had that situation several times.  Are the refs volunteers or paid?  Are they certified?  Do you have a copy of the rules of the league?

I will say that it seems that soccer does become a more physical contact sport as you go up through the age groups.  I have highschool boys playing this year and I've been amazed at what is allowed and not called as a foul.  

I would also encourage your dd and the team to keep playing and not get distracted by what is going on.  In our experience with sports over the years it really doesn't help the kids to get into the "but we lost because of bad refs" mode of thinking.  They can still focus on playing their game, improving their skills and having a good team spirit.  As parents we need to keep the sports experience focused on our own team, not on the politics of the league.  Not saying to not try to make changes, just do it behind the scenes, not in front of the team members.

[Pink and Green Mom]

My husband has been involved with Little League since 1993 (upon graduating from college).  He has coached, been on the board in 4 leagues and has been the president of our league for the past 4 years.  I read him your message.  He said, without hesitation, he would bring it up to the league.  He said he would schedule a meeting with the Leauge president and head of officiating and ask for a sit down meeting in order to ask for a review of the rules (as in your husband approaching it as "I am seeing very inconsistent reffing and no calls.  I would like to sit down and review the rules so I have a better understanding of what to expect."  rather than complaining specifically about any particular team). 

And I would definitely report what that coach said, getting as many people as are willing to complain about it (because you know Coach A and every parent on that team will say "oh, you must have misheard, Mr. Wonderful would never say that..." blah blah blah.)

[shinyhappypeople]

9 hours ago, rebcoola said:

Does your league not have a way to rate or complain about the referees?  Are they paid or provided by the team I would be going after them if I could.  Even the  refs for our little kids rec league are trained and paid and held responsible for their actions.  

I can't find a formal complaint process, although I think you're on the right track.  If the refs would just do the jobs that they're paid to do a lot of these issues would be addressed.  The refs are trained and paid but I don't know what accountability there is, if any.  A lot of them are teenagers.

 

[Pen]

Can your team and other play fair teams form a play fair soccer association separate from team C team A etc ?  Or join with some other soccer association perhaps ayso? 

I agree with filming. 

And with making alliances with other fair play teams. 

I don’t think this is a problem that is just local to you, however  

It seems like soccer is becoming two different sports—one with players who are taught to deliberately foul and even to hurt players on opposing teams. Almost it is like soccer is becoming rugby-ized, or American football-ized, (maybe worse), and where that is becoming a new “normal” and forcing out the traditional style soccer where skillful ball techniques were central—such that if you want traditional soccer with foul rules observed, you may need to establish a league for that. 

If you do, consider it being a league that also doesn’t have ball heading. I think there are a lot of parents nationwide who would like to find team sports for their kids that foster a spirit of sportsmanship and fair play as well as an opportunity to develop physical fitness without the repetitive head banging, tripping, fouling, that American soccer seems to have morphed into. 

[Pen]

Possibly of interest: NY Times article 

 

Broken Bones and Bruises Rise as Youth Soccer gets aggressive 

 

[City Mouse]

5 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I can't find a formal complaint process, although I think you're on the right track.  If the refs would just do the jobs that they're paid to do a lot of these issues would be addressed.  The refs are trained and paid but I don't know what accountability there is, if any.  A lot of them are teenagers.

 

That is the problem -the refs are teenagers. At 16, I worked exactly 2 soccer games as a ref before I quit. If you and your DH don't know how to handle the aggressive coaches, imagine what that is like for a 16 yr old ref. I don't think most teenagers have the maturity and experience to handle that situation. There is no other job where "we" would expect and allow under age kids to be harassed at work like that -well, there might be another but I can't think of any right now. (Even though you are not describing aggression directed toward the refs, I imagine that those same coaches would be guilty of such)

[shinyhappypeople]

24 minutes ago, Pen said:

Possibly of interest: NY Times article 

 

Broken Bones and Bruises Rise as Youth Soccer gets aggressive 

 

That's a really good article.  One of the parents on our team has a young family who suffered a broken vertebrae (!!) as a result of a foul from an opposing player. There's a reason we have rules about contact (even though it's a contact sport, within limits).  Keep it fair and fun.  Attack the ball, not the player.  Y'all aren't playing in the World Cup.

[katilac]

Here are the magic words you need to say to the league: Not calling personal fouls is a liability issue. 

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

That's a really good article.  One of the parents on our team has a young family who suffered a broken vertebrae (!!) as a result of a foul from an opposing player. There's a reason we have rules about contact (even though it's a contact sport, within limits).  Keep it fair and fun.  Attack the ball, not the player.  Y'all aren't playing in the World Cup.

 

That’s sad. Is the dc with broken vertebrae okay ?

Unfortunately it seems like this is becoming more and more common—and another issue of teen refs is they may have played with deliberate fouling being taught to them. 

Additional to “enforcers” in soccer, there have been “floppers” and the opposing coach “stop being a pussy...” may have indicated an accusation of that...

I think the most likely way to keep the game fun would be one way or another to not play the teams who are not playing fair, whose coaches shout insults. Connect with other coaches/teams trade information on the bad teams and scratch on those matches. Go have a fun practice session instead with some fun bonding activity afterwards. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Here are the magic words you need to say to the league: Not calling personal fouls is a liability issue. 

 

Unless there is an issue of gross negligence most states protect officials and leagues from liability suits related to how a game is refereed.  Poor/inconsistent calls generally do not rise to the level of gross negligence.

[katilac]

6 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Unless there is an issue of gross negligence most states protect officials and leagues from liability suits related to how a game is refereed.  Poor/inconsistent calls generally do not rise to the level of gross negligence.

 

Bad calls do not rise to negligence. Persistently ignoring personal fouls is another thing. 

Besides, the goal is not to actually sue but to prod the league into taking action. Very few organizations want to open themselves up to even the slight possibility of liability if they can very simply solve the problem at zero cost. 

It's the approach I would take. "Beyond the issues of sportsmanship and players wanting to drop out, I'm very concerned about the league's liability. With so many parents videoing the games, it would be very easy to show an ongoing pattern of ignoring personal fouls." 

That's probably all that is needed, but if someone argues that a plaintiff would never win their case, "You may be right, but defending a lawsuit will still be terribly expensive, and think of all the bad publicity. I know I don't want my name on the news!" 

Ideally, you will have already discussed this with another person who will be at the meeting, who will back up your concern. 

Again, the only goal is to get the league to do what they should already be doing. You're not going to sue, you have the league's best interests at heart and are simply worried that someone else is going to sue. 

[SKL]

Honestly, I would probably just quit the sport after this season.  I would find something else where either it's not brutal, or it's supposed to be physical and you're prepared for it (like martial arts).

You could complain, but if the refs won't admit there is anything wrong, it might just be a waste of breath.  And even if they did change rules / refs, it's still the same people involved whose purpose is to win at all costs.

[alewife]

15 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

[snip]  At one point the coach was yelling from the sidelines, "SHOVE THEM!"  (Y'all thought I was kidding about useless refs.  Nope.)  It gets worse: during the final minute or two of the game, one of A's players intentionally tripped one of our players to get possession of the ball (it was an obvious foul).  Our girl fell and yelled, "Hey, foul!" and the opposing coach yelled at OUR player (exact quote): "Stop being a pussy crybaby."  What.the.......  ?

 

Did any adult in earshot of this comment reprimand the coach?  

I have witnessed my fair share of coaches behaving badly in rec leagues, especially when the umpires/refs are easily- intimidated high school students.  However, I can't imagine any adult in attendance letting a coach get away with speaking to a player in this manner regardless of whether the ref took action.  In fact, any coach who made such a comment would be removed from his coaching duties immediately.  

 

[sassenach]

There’s someone at the top. Most leagues have a board. Bring it to leadership. Believe me, they’ve received stupider complaints. My dh is on the little league board and would have no problem receiving such a complaint. 

ETA: not that this is a stupid complaint, I just mean that you shouldn’t be afraid to complain. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by sassenach

[sassenach]

3 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Unless there is an issue of gross negligence most states protect officials and leagues from liability suits related to how a game is refereed.  Poor/inconsistent calls generally do not rise to the level of gross negligence.

That is technically true, but I don’t think it will make using that approach any less effective. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

7 hours ago, katilac said:

 

Bad calls do not rise to negligence. Persistently ignoring personal fouls is another thing. 

Besides, the goal is not to actually sue but to prod the league into taking action. Very few organizations want to open themselves up to even the slight possibility of liability if they can very simply solve the problem at zero cost. 

It's the approach I would take. "Beyond the issues of sportsmanship and players wanting to drop out, I'm very concerned about the league's liability. With so many parents videoing the games, it would be very easy to show an ongoing pattern of ignoring personal fouls." 

That's probably all that is needed, but if someone argues that a plaintiff would never win their case, "You may be right, but defending a lawsuit will still be terribly expensive, and think of all the bad publicity. I know I don't want my name on the news!" 

Ideally, you will have already discussed this with another person who will be at the meeting, who will back up your concern. 

Again, the only goal is to get the league to do what they should already be doing. You're not going to sue, you have the league's best interests at heart and are simply worried that someone else is going to sue. 

 

4 hours ago, sassenach said:

That is technically true, but I don’t think it will make using that approach any less effective. 

 

Threatening/hinting at a lawsuit when you know you have no intention of going forward or know you do not have a solid legal basis to go forward is a poor tactic.  Youth sports organizations have liability coverage that will cover them if they are sued, including all legal costs.  I am on a board that has been threatened with lawsuits numerous times, been sued twice (2-0 in court fwiw), and it really isn't that much of a threat.  If you do make that kind of threat and then don't follow up with legal action when changes aren't made, any complaints made later won't be taken as seriously.

Regarding what the league "should" be doing, officiating is always tricky and is filled with gray areas in any contact sport (one of the reasons for the gross negligence standard), The pool of highly skilled officials in any area is generally low relative to the population, and youth leagues often work with the best they can get.  Citing specific areas of concern in the officiating and offering constructive suggestions for how the officials can improve will often get a better response than taking an immediately adversarial approach.

[katilac]

1 minute ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Threatening/hinting at a lawsuit when you know you have no intention of going forward 

 

 

I've repeated several times that I am NOT suggesting they threat or hint at a lawsuit. 

I've also repeated that I am not suggesting this as an adversarial approach, but as an I-am-concerned-and-want-to-help approach. 

The OP can consider my post or ignore my post, but what you are saying and addressing is not in response to my actual posts. 

[sassenach]

12 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

 

Threatening/hinting at a lawsuit when you know you have no intention of going forward or know you do not have a solid legal basis to go forward is a poor tactic.  Youth sports organizations have liability coverage that will cover them if they are sued, including all legal costs.  I am on a board that has been threatened with lawsuits numerous times, been sued twice (2-0 in court fwiw), and it really isn't that much of a threat.  If you do make that kind of threat and then don't follow up with legal action when changes aren't made, any complaints made later won't be taken as seriously.

Regarding what the league "should" be doing, officiating is always tricky and is filled with gray areas in any contact sport (one of the reasons for the gross negligence standard), The pool of highly skilled officials in any area is generally low relative to the population, and youth leagues often work with the best they can get.  Citing specific areas of concern in the officiating and offering constructive suggestions for how the officials can improve will often get a better response than taking an immediately adversarial approach.

?? I think you are reading much more into my response than necessary. If a *coach* goes to the board and says, “hey guys, the personal fouls are getting out of control and we’ve got grown men calling young girls *pussy* out on the field. I’m concerned about not only the experience if the girls, but also the reputation of this league and the liability of the organization if something doesn’t change.” I think that is a solid approach. You can disagree. 

[shinyhappypeople]

On 9/23/2018 at 7:44 AM, Pen said:

 

That’s sad. Is the dc with broken vertebrae okay ?

Unfortunately it seems like this is becoming more and more common—and another issue of teen refs is they may have played with deliberate fouling being taught to them. 

Additional to “enforcers” in soccer, there have been “floppers” and the opposing coach “stop being a pussy...” may have indicated an accusation of that...

I think the most likely way to keep the game fun would be one way or another to not play the teams who are not playing fair, whose coaches shout insults. Connect with other coaches/teams trade information on the bad teams and scratch on those matches. Go have a fun practice session instead with some fun bonding activity afterwards. 

I assume the kid is okay.  I don't know details beyond what I shared: a personal foul caused a broken vertebrae.

I think this will be our last season.  DH said as soon as DD is done he's going public with everything.  If he says anything beforehand it could make things worse.  It's kind of like dealing with a bully.  

Honestly, this is all so bizarre to me.  In every other kids activity we've done (and we've done a LOT) it's always been about keeping a positive environment, we're here for the kids, play fair, have fun... etc.  The fact that adults are taking a rec league soccer game so seriously is just crazy.  Rec = recreational = just for fun.  I just want to walk up to Coach C and Coach A and ask them point blank: "What is so BROKEN in you that you are doing this to kids?"  Healthy adults don't act like that.

Edited September 24, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[Pen]

35 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I assume the kid is okay.  I don't know details beyond what I shared: a personal foul caused a broken vertebrae.

I think this will be our last season.  DH said as soon as DD is done he's going public with everything.  If he says anything beforehand it could make things worse.  It's kind of like dealing with a bully.  

Honestly, this is all so bizarre to me.  In every other kids activity we've done (and we've done a LOT) it's always been about keeping a positive environment, we're here for the kids, play fair, have fun... etc.  The fact that adults are taking a rec league soccer game so seriously is just crazy.  Rec = recreational = just for fun.  I just want to walk up to Coach C and Coach A and ask them point blank: "What is so BROKEN in you that you are doing this to kids?"  Healthy adults don't act like that.

 

We are no longer significantly involved in ice skating due to craziness. 

It is sad. 

If only A and C are problems, maybe games between your team and A and C could be ones your team no shows to   It would be  better to have a loss from a no show as compared to a severe injury from deliberate fouling  imo

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Pen

[Reefgazer]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:11 AM, HeighHo said:

It needs to be addressed in the coaches' meeting.  Those who want to play fair can accelerate that by forfeiting to the foul teams.

I agree with bringing it up at a coaches meeting, but in the meantime, appear at the game and forfeit to those teams that don't play fair.  I had a high school coach do this when I played volleyball in high school.  I was mad at the time that we didn't get to play, but as an adult, I see it was a wise choice.

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I agree with bringing it up at a coaches meeting, but in the meantime, appear at the game and forfeit to those teams that don't play fair.  I had a high school coach do this when I played volleyball in high school.  I was mad at the time that we didn't get to play, but as an adult, I see it was a wise choice.

 

Could you clarify appear and forfeit vs no show?

[Pen]

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/07/the-downsides-of-americas-hyper-competitive-youth-soccer-industry/565109/

 

https://www.soccerparenting.com/youth-soccer-needs-reality-check/

[katilac]

This is so weird to me because I live in an area that is a little crazy where youth sports are concerned, and soccer is the one choice that is usually left in peace to be truly recreational. We're just not hip enough to have actual soccer moms ?

[shinyhappypeople]

This just gets getting crazier (weirder? sadder?).  I am learning a lot about how the league works.

There is the Big Regional League.  Within BRL are smaller city leagues.  Then smaller city leagues decide whether to play just within their city or compete against neighboring city leagues.

So, in DD's competitive pool we have Hometown league (with Coach C and a couple of other teams), City A (with coach A and one other team) and City M (haven't played them yet - has similar reputation to city A, so we'll see).

City A's league president is <drumroll> Coach A.  So, we'd have to complain to Coach A about Coach A calling a 12 yo a "pussy crybaby."

There's other corrupt stuff I've discovered with City A League, but I won't bore you with it.  

Seriously, do these people not have lives?  This is rec soccer.  The league doesn't even keep track of wins/losses over the course of the season, so it's not like you're gunning for 1st place.   Can't we keep the adult egos out of it and just keep it fair and fun?  Compete hard, definitely.  But don't cheat.  

I'm so done.

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, shinyhappypeople said:

This just gets getting crazier (weirder? sadder?).  I am learning a lot about how the league works.

There is the Big Regional League.  Within BRL are smaller city leagues.  Then smaller city leagues decide whether to play just within their city or compete against neighboring city leagues.

So, in DD's competitive pool we have Hometown league (with Coach C and a couple of other teams), City A (with coach A and one other team) and City M (haven't played them yet - has similar reputation to city A, so we'll see).

City A's league president is <drumroll> Coach A.  So, we'd have to complain to Coach A about Coach A calling a 12 yo a "pussy crybaby."

There's other corrupt stuff I've discovered with City A League, but I won't bore you with it.  

Seriously, do these people not have lives?  This is rec soccer.  The league doesn't even keep track of wins/losses over the course of the season, so it's not like you're gunning for 1st place.   Can't we keep the adult egos out of it and just keep it fair and fun?  Compete hard, definitely.  But don't cheat.  

I'm so done.

 It city A is part of the Big Regional League, right? I but the BRL has a board. Go to them. 

[Pen]

IF there is a legitimate liability issue (which I am not sure there is), then that is another reason for @shinyhappypeople ‘s dh to consider not showing up at all to any game with an opposing coach known already to be encouraging deliberate fouling. Dh could also be accused of wrong doing, negligence, if a player is injured in a situation he already knew to be potentially more dangerous than a normal soccer situation .  Non-soccer player parents may not be able to recognize the situation as unusually more dangerous than soccer should be. But your husband knows that it is. 

I can understand the desire to show up and then forfeit after a foul that the ref doesn’t call.

But if my dd were on the team and had a broken vertebrae or concussion due to such a decision I would be as upset with her own coach for deliberately endangering her as with the opposing coach for doing so.  Even if liability were not at issue because players sign away their right to sue, I would still be very upset if I discovered that my child’s coach deliberately put my child into an unusually dangerous soccer situation to make a point.