How do you decide between regular curricula and therapy or remedial options?

[Lecka]

I am looking at some options right now, and to some extent I have a choice between using a regular curriculum 2-3 years behind the expected age, or else therapy/remedial materials.

I’m finding myself pretty drawn to using regular materials 2-3 years behind.  There are things that look very appropriate for my son, and I don’t think he is ready for remedial materials intended for a 4th grader.

He is globally delayed and he is young for his age.  

Currently he is doing well with AAS 1, and I’m looking hard at WWE 1 and FLL 1.  I am more supplementary at home as he does have school and therapy.  

School would like me to listen to him read aloud 15 minutes/day and review math facts, I will definitely do that (I think that is very appropriate for him).  

[Lecka]

Just for some more data points.... in therapy he has just finished listening to “Bats” by Gail Gibbons read aloud, and has answered questions about it, and he has just finished the second book and activities from We Thinkers 2, from Social Thinking.  We Thinkers 2 has a suggested age range of 4-7 and it is very appropriate for him right now.  

Edit:  he read aloud today from Owl Diaries book 2, from Scholastic Branches.  I don’t know the age range for it, but his twin sister thinks it is too babyish for her.  

Edited August 29, 2018 by Lecka

[Crimson Wife]

For us, it depends on the subject.

Math she is able to grasp the concepts as long as they are presented using manipulatives and/or pictorially. She is actually working at the grade level corresponding to her physiological age (which is delayed from her chronological age). Abstract reasoning is difficult for her so if you present her with an equation using numerical symbols, she will need to draw the pictures before she can solve it. But she definitely doesn't have dyscalculia or any signs of a math LD per se.

Language we need to use intervention/remedial materials. Her phonological processing is actually good so it's not dyslexia but she definitely has language-based LD's.

[kbutton]

I have as hard of a time finding appropriate and parent-friendly therapy materials as I do regular materials, so take this with a grain of salt. I do find that when I have found something that is for therapy that I like, it's often a similar approach to something I've used successfully before but more thorough (usually more granular). 

If regular materials are going well, I would probably use them to the extent they are going well. They are usually less expensive and easier to find used. The scope and sequence is often more predictable and familiar to a parent audience vs. therapy materials. 

About WWE and FLL specifically, they are scripted, so if you like scripted, that's a bonus. They definitely fit the criteria of less expensive and easily available used. I think the short lessons could be a plus, particularly since you are after-schooling and generalizing to new situations, so he's been working during the day already. 

Do you have a guess about why you like delayed age range vs. therapy materials? That might help you make the decision.

I think you are totally capable of using therapy materials, but if they don't draw you in, there is probably a good reason for it even if you can't pinpoint that reason. 

I guess I'm suggesting that it sounds like you have no reason to switch to therapy materials at this point unless you just find something that resonates with you. It might also be that you naturally use readily available resources in therapeutic ways--you may be particularly intuitive and able to adapt things to suit the need.

[Lecka]

I look at therapy materials right now and mentally place my son in them, and I think he is at an upper end for things, but not ready to move on to the next step.  I think he needs to generalize more at the same kind of level.  

I do also have a hard time teaching him new material, so I’m looking more at generalizing than taking on new material.  But he does need to generalize, too, and get more depth.  His vocabulary is getting better but it is still low, his reading is getting better but needs a lot of practice at a lower level, and his speaking is much better but also needs a lot of easy *but structured* practice.  Structure is good for him.  I think he needs a little more than what I am currently providing.  

His inferencing is also so hit or miss.  He gets a lot of things, but then other things he misses. I think I am the only one to take a lot of time and go over inferences with him and check for comprehension.  It takes a lot of time.  But I want to do more than that, kind-of, I would like something easy for me to do with more back-and-forth.  Also his inferencing is considered good for his level.  

Also he has been having some non-participating behavior with talking and I think he will participate with me, and I think that would help his participating behavior to be more in the habit of doing it with me.  He tends to carry on with how he acts at home, and I think I need to make more of an expectation for him to answer questions so it doesn’t seem like it’s optional or “just at school” or “just with therapy.”  I think he has that attitude a little bit.  That is probably the main thing.  I think it is time to go from modeling, to requiring a response, but it is hard for me to “do” it.  I haven’t “done” as much as I would like.  I have been doing well with exposure and modeling, though, and I do ask things here and there, but — it would be new for me to say “okay, answer in a complete sentence” if he didn’t.  

I definitely like scripted materials.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I think it is time to go from modeling, to requiring a response

You already know this, but that's a faded prompt.

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I do ask things here and there, but — it would be new for me to say “okay, answer in a complete sentence” if he didn’t.  

There's sort of this tendency to let it slide because we assume they *could* give the full answer and just *aren't*. Then, when you dig in, you realize for some kids they aren't giving it because they would struggle.

So it's always going back to what is the next step, fading prompts, working toward a goal. It's stuff you already know, but maybe you're tired or needed to see it listed out that way or something. Now requiring a sentence can go too far and actually make the dc sound unnatural, since not everyone would necessarily always answer with a complete sentence. But still, being ABLE to is important. Not in theory able, but really comfortably able. Then it carries over and you get more sentences, meaning it was a worthy goal to push.

I'm sort of headachy and not in mode to be nice here, so I'm trying to be careful. I'm with kbutton that the question isn't precisely therapy vs. delayed use materials but more style of approach and thoroughness. I can tell you that as I'm beginning grammar (syntax, woo-woo) work with ds, it's very clear that it follows from strong understanding of FFC. If they GET functions, they get verbs. If they GET features, they get adjectives/modifiers. If they GET naming, they get nouns. That kind of thing. That's the rocket science I'm seeing.

So the inverse is if that isn't all solid in his brain, then the totally language-driven, abstract presentation of FLL might not connect at all. It sounds all charming, but it's not giving you a lot of tools. I also don't think the grammar materials from Linguisystems are necessarily uber-brilliant either. I guess ask me in 6 months. The games book isn't bad. 50 Quick-Play Grammar Games  You might look at it and see what you think. It's something where you can print a board and play the game as long as you need to till the concept clicks. 

What would you be using WWE for? My dd had significantly less disability than either of our ds, and WWE was murder and torture for her. I've never tried it on ds. You'd get somewhere and find a way to use it. I think the main thing to do with PHP materials is take advantage of the generous sample and use that first to see how it goes. Often it's as much as 6 weeks, which should be enough to let you know.

Unfortunately, I think for narrative skills and comprehension having intervention-appropriate materials is going to be more productive, at least for realizing the skills. Once you have the skills clear in your own mind, you can use anything, sure. The grammar is going to flow from his language comprehension, and you may want more modalities, more interaction. But roll with him and what type of student he is, sure.

[Lecka]

To some extent I want to work on skills that he uses just fine at school and therapy because they have worked on the skill with him and expect him to use it.  

I have wanted to have more of a “mom” role recently and let him relax more at home.  

But I think now he is capable, and the truth is he is called upon to give responses to questions all the time.  I think it’s time for me to step up my expectation at home, and get this into “yes it’s expected anytime, anyplace.”  

It is the kind of thing where he has made comments that are at this skill level but they have been led by him.  That is really good, but a step up would be to expect that more.

On Tuesday I got a note that he said “I’ve already answered this question a thousand times.”  I feel like he needs an understanding of “so answer it again.”  That’s normal, that’s life.  

I also think if we’re going to get into stuff where he doesn’t answer and then — maybe he does know it but he’s bored so he won’t answer — well then that is very counterproductive for him, but I don’t think he realizes that.  

And then on the other hand some things are too hard.

But I think expectations are going up and he is a little resistant to it, and it would help him to get a clearer message from me that it is a normal expectation.   

I also think it would help a lot when *other people* may be confusing can’t/won’t with him.  Right now I can’t give an opinion about “oh, that he can do with me, but this other thing I do think is too hard,” because I am not doing similar things with him!  

[Lecka]

Thinking about it, I also would like something where he can do more independent work with something with language, at home, and I think copywork could be a good start.  He can do a math worksheet without me right next to him.  He can’t do anything with language without me right next to him.  I think it would be great if he could start somewhere on that.  I don’t think he would need me right next to him for guidance, but I don’t think he would do it without me next to him.  That would help him a lot at school, too, if he got more used to doing written/language things more independently.  Last year he would do things like that sitting at a horseshoe table where the teacher sat on the other side and rolled her chair around to different kids.  And then — if not that, someone would be right next to him.  

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

On Tuesday I got a note that he said “I’ve already answered this question a thousand times.”  I feel like he needs an understanding of “so answer it again.”  That’s normal, that’s life.

Hahaha, that's an answer my kids would give (not exactly, but similar, especially on narrating), and when I read that I was like WOW aren't you happy about that beautiful sentence!!! LOL 

Yes, it's hard to advocate and problem solve when you're not doing it too. And he probably benefits from it being done a bit both places. And I really don't know and think you're right to dig in and say ok are the expectations going UP and he's really saying it's too hard (which was why my kids would say that, because it was hard and wearisome and they wanted to shimmy out and were bored all at the same time and didn't see a reason) OR is it that the expectations are too low?

What you could also do is talk with your behaviorist person. Is this a therapist having this situation or a school? New therapist or one he's been with a while? Self-advocating is really important too, and I think when someone with significant language issues takes the time to make a really impressive sentence like that, that it ought to MATTER. Communication matters, making the effort to get out your thoughts matters. So maybe we don't do exactly what he said, but we could figure out why he went to all that effort to say it, kwim?

It could be the person is boring him. It could be they're stuck in a modality or need to approach the skill a fresh way. It could be too hard. It could be all kinds of things that he doesn't have the language and self-awareness and experience to express. Ds hit a point where he also outgrew a worker and started having behaviors. So it's just stuff you can check. I would be really proud of that mighty fine sentence and maybe work on language for self-advocating to add to his repertoire so he can tell you more specifically what his issue is. Like I work with ds on saying WHY he wants a break. Normal people do this! It's not normal to tell someone they're not allowed to dissent. Normal people have feelings and they even say why they're doing something. So now that ds can say he wants a break, needs a break, I work on getting him to tell WHY. That way he's safer to work with anyone. Like if he can say "I need a break. This is hard!!" then people can work with that. But if he just takes a break or refuses or whatever, that didn't get us as far. 

I love the sentence though. That shows a lot of potential and that he's trying to self-advocate. It may be you're coming into a new stage and have to step up how he's interacted with. He may need more collaboration or self-advocacy or the chance to say he doesn't want to do it and then have a discussion and decide to comply. He may be transitioning there. I don't know, just saying ds is most visibly and that it's stuff you could talk with your behaviorist about.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Thinking about it, I also would like something where he can do more independent work with something with language, at home, and I think copywork could be a good start.  He can do a math worksheet without me right next to him.  He can’t do anything with language without me right next to him.  I think it would be great if he could start somewhere on that.  I don’t think he would need me right next to him for guidance, but I don’t think he would do it without me next to him.  That would help him a lot at school, too, if he got more used to doing written/language things more independently.  Last year he would do things like that sitting at a horseshoe table where the teacher sat on the other side and rolled her chair around to different kids.  And then — if not that, someone would be right next to him.  

Yes, yes! I'm surprised the teacher isn't working on it. Or you're saying they don't view him as ready? The small autism school we had looked at a year ago was going to push that harder, but they had less workers (1 teacher and 1 aide for 6-8), so they had to. 

I think your idea of copywork is good. Also things like phonics mazes, alphabet dot to dots. You can't do anything open-ended, but anything with multiple choice works. That's why I was able to use worksheets with my ds for reading, etc., because they had multiple choice. If you're targeting how he's working, then it's ok to shift over to multiple choice I would think. You said inferences are still a goal, so you could look for reading comprehension work with multiple choice. They'll begin to bring some of that in. It won't necessarily be totally independent at first, but the reading might be independent and then you read the questions together. He would fade over and take over. 

Let me think about independent LA. It's tricky, definitely. Have you looked at the little fun pads of stuff at Walmart? Word searches, have you looked at word searches? I got a series I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that he might like. It was leveled, unlike most word search books you'll find. It was an ebook I could print. I think it was labeled as Homework Helpers on a site (Evan Moor, Scholastic, Teacher Created, I forget). Started off with CVC and worked up. He can use highlighters if you want to drop the fine motor a bit. Those were REALLY CHALLENGING for my ds, but they're actually a great recreational skill too, something he can do with people. And once he gets some of these CVC words, etc. solid that you're spelling, you could make word searches or crosswords with them. We transferred naturally from word searches to crosswords, but they're much harder.

I suspect the only reason my ds tested reasonably well on spelling was the word searches, lol. Huge fan.

[Lecka]

He does word searches at church.  That is a good idea, I think he does like them.

He does do writing at school — but it’s hard for me to know how independently he does it.  I like a lot of what they do, they do stuff like — he draws a picture, he says a sentence about his picture, he writes the sentence down.... but with help.  It’s nice.  But I think he could gain from copywork, also.  

Then other writing things they do with him I feel like are a little too hard but it’s what they are supposed to do.  But it’s like his writing goals are language goals, because they sit and talk about it.  So it’s good but it isn’t exactly writing in some ways?  It’s more like a supplement to reading and speaking?  It’s hard to explain.  It’s not that it’s bad or they aren’t doing anything, but I think copywork would also be good.

In a way he does things like copywork, they do things like talk about it and then they write him a wordbank, and he writes down what they have talked about with a mix of words he has memorized how to spell and words from the word bank.  

It is good but I think it would help him to have something he could do more independently, also, to go along.  And just have an expectation he can do something without someone right next to him.  

Also I think he can do it.  I think it would help his confidence.  He definitely sees siblings do homework independently and it is a mark of being “a big kid” here in a lot of ways.  

Edit:  he is also at school and he does do less than kids his age, so I don’t want him to think he can’t do things.  It’s pretty known kids can start to think “I have to have help, I can’t do it,” and I do think it would help with that.  Not that I have a specific concern, but it is a common thing.  

Edited August 30, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I was thinking about it more, and I think right now I will leave speciality materials to others.

I want to build routines where either he works with me (and I transition to speciality materials in the future) or we have a foundation where he does independent work of some kind (like homework).  

Because my husband has a job change coming up we will not have the same insurance in two years, so I want to be in a good position for that if I take more things over, I think I need to already be doing “stuff” and then it will be an easier transition.  Maybe.

I think I just want to step up what I am doing a little bit.  He’s reading better and that opens up some space, to do something else, I think.  

[Pen]

I think WWE1 might work well for a young for his age 4th grader. 

The reading passages are from books that would probably still interest a 4th grader and the copy amount is probably doable. 

At the time we tried WW1 it was not a fit, but I can see that doing it later could have worked well, perhaps  .

I think FLL1 might feel babyish even for a young for his age child. For my son FLL wasn’t a helpful approach to grammar and language generally. So I don’t know. 

[Lecka]

Thanks for the thoughts ?. I will have to look at samples again.  

[Lecka]

Updating.... my FLL and WWE came.  They look really good!

I have realized though I don’t think I have time right now.

I have realized I really like the phonics review that is coming from AAS 1.  That is very good.  I do also like the dictation, and that is why I thought I would like WWE.  But I am seeing I “want” that (and like that) but right now my priority is phonics review, more than “putting words on paper.”  I am happy to have the amount of “putting words on paper” he gets from AAS 1.  

Overall I have thought about it, and I have my eye on a lot of very nice regular things for a 1st/2nd grade level.  Right now I plan to do those things as long as they are making sense.

Then I have my eye on some very nice 3rd-5th intervention materials, but I am not seeing the readiness.  But when I see the readiness I am definitely looking at the next step of intervention materials.  

I have still been looking at some book activities on TPT, but my son isn’t picking the right books, to pick books that have nice book activities from TPT, right now.  But I think soon he will, just because we are reading other books and the books we have left will be books that have nice materials to go with them on TPT.  I am looking at the seller “stories by storie,” I think she has really nice materials for things about his level (1st/2nd grade) but I’m being patient because he does better when he picks from a choice of books for what I read to him.  

His own reading is coming along, I can see the phonics review helping him.  I think it’s a good time for it.  He HAS covered all of it before, but he is just doing better with it now.  

[PeterPan]

Yeah, sometimes it takes seeing the whole thing in your hands to figure it out. Does his school have any of these goals too? I'm surprised he has energy to do more after he comes home.

The options will change each year, even for the same topics, because you might find something with a different presentation that hits the same skills but at a different age level. Christine Reeve talks about the challenge of that, trying to keep it appropriate to their maturation and their skill at the same time. It can be tricky.

I went through Walmart a couple nights ago and found some cute things like a sticker book of ocean animals that has smaller pieces and a John Wayne word puzzles book. Word puzzles, word ladders, etc. are another way to sneak in spelling without it being too much writing. You could even look at Spelfabet if you want more writing. I'm over the moon for it right now, because it uses boardmaker symbols, giving them this heavy visual input to go with what they're spelling. Even just the strategy could work really well if you just did it like one row at a time, cutting the pages apart to make it last longer or doing it yourself with other stuff. They fill in only the first letters then only the last letters, then the vowels, then the last page they write the whole word. It's very sharp and quietly gets them there without it feeling like too much.

All that was rabbit trail to say I'm glad you got it figured out! It's ok to buy something and decide not to use it. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

It looks like he’s going to be awake an hour before school and watch tv.  I can pause and have him do spelling.  Just a little.  

After school he’s got about 5 hours.  That’s really a lot of time.  I have been having him do a math review on the computer before being allowed to play games on the computer.  He doesn’t mind this.  

Reading to him, I look for a time.  During a snack is usually good.  Him reading to me, we have something of a routine for him to sit and read at the kitchen table before he eats, while I make something or put away dishes or something.  

As far as school, they aren’t stressing him out.  He’s in a special classroom.

His real top goal right now is social.  This means he gets play time at school to work on social skills.  He does some things they take really seriously, like he tries to talk to people when he is nowhere near them, or when his back is turned to them.  It’s hard to explain but it is really a top goal for him right now.  But he doesn’t do this at home, except sometimes he doesn’t face us, or maybe he’s across the room.  It’s more of an issue outside of home.  Anyway that is a focus of school.  

I haven’t been very happy with his phonics, but he has had good comprehension.  Last year his reading group had kids who had lower comprehension than him, but who had been reading when they were 3 years old.  It was good and I liked it, but there was little focus on phonics because other kids didn’t need it.  And then I didn’t say anything because if I can do phonics at home much better than I can do comprehension, I don’t want them to do less comprehension at school. 

They do things at school, but it isn’t stressful, I would guess he is “working” on academics maybe 2 hours a day, if that.  But he does a lot of fun things and he does specials, he gets recess, etc.  

He is at a new school this year, I don’t have a real sense of it yet, but this is my guess.

My daughter I am sure is doing much more than 2 hours a day of academics, she is capable of much more than that, and so are many other kids.  She is going to have homework at some point (probably soon) which I expect her to do independently (because she did last year).  I will have her do math facts on the computer, and that’s probably all I will do with her.  My older son has two study halls this quarter and is only allowed to read or do homework, so I expect him to do a lot of reading at school and finish his homework at school, for the most part, at least this quarter.  

[PeterPan]

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense! Sounds like a well thought out plan!

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Lecka said:

He does some things they take really seriously, like he tries to talk to people when he is nowhere near them, or when his back is turned to them.  It’s hard to explain but it is really a top goal for him right now.  But he doesn’t do this at home, except sometimes he doesn’t face us, or maybe he’s across the room.  It’s more of an issue outside of home.  Anyway that is a focus of school.  

You might find it interesting to look into RDI. https://www.rdiconnect.com/find-a-consultant/united-states/  It's not the kind of thing you have to do a lot of. You can, but like with us we went, did an intake eval, she gave us a written out list of things to do and talked for an hour, and we're good to come back when those skills are done and we're ready for more. And it was the kind of stuff where you would really see noticeable change that sticks. It might help you target some of that non-verbal stuff and ways to integrate it into your day. Like with us she had a skill, and then she talked with us about ways we could work on it, things that we really do in our day. So it was very practical. 

[Crimson Wife]

Just now, PeterPan said:

You might find it interesting to look into RDI. https://www.rdiconnect.com/find-a-consultant/united-states/  It's not the kind of thing you have to do a lot of. You can, but like with us we went, did an intake eval, she gave us a written out list of things to do and talked for an hour, and we're good to come back when those skills are done and we're ready for more. And it was the kind of stuff where you would really see noticeable change that sticks. It might help you target some of that non-verbal stuff and ways to integrate it into your day. Like with us she had a skill, and then she talked with us about ways we could work on it, things that we really do in our day. So it was very practical. 

The RDI book has a lot of good activities that parents can work on with their children. That's what I used with my DD when we were going through a 2.5 year battle over ABA funding.

Dr. Rick Solomon, developmental pediatrician, BCBA, and founder of the PLAY Project actually told me that was the best thing I could've done for my child. He thinks ABA is more successful with school-aged children who have worked on the foundational relationship skills through a program like RDI, Floortime, or now the PLAY Project.

[Lecka]

He does a lot better when there is no need to talk.  He is one of those kids who can freeze while they think of what to say.  I think he is focusing a lot on what to say, and loses the other things.  He does make social references with other things (at least at home).  

We had a therapist who had worked for an RDI person when she was in college and she brought in a lot of games.  But it was not formal.  I had a chance to look through an RDI book of games one time and he has played a lot of those games between one thing and another (summer program, he did a free drama therapy program once a week for two years).  

We had a goal for a long time for him to turn his head to reference another child in play, and he does do that now.  He will look around to see where other kids are and what they are doing.  

His interaction is better but it is limited.  

His main goal is to increase his peer interaction and his language use with peers.  He does initiate now and he responds great.  But there is a long way to go. 

He does do better when there is more structure, also.  With a structured game or play area, etc.  

I just saw him at “meet the teacher” which was a new place, new teacher, etc, and he did well once he was near the teacher and talking to her, but I also saw a peer call to him, and he whispered a response, and then took a step closer and said it again, and then he took a step closer and said it again, until he did get close to the boy.  

He is being kept together this year with two boys he did well with last year, so that is really nice.