Can someone please show me in the parenting handbook...

[StaceyinLA]

where it says parenting adult children would be HARDER than parenting 2 year-olds??? I think I missed that chapter.

Seriously though - how is it that adult children with children of their own can cause us so much more pain and heartbreak than toddlers or teens?

Is it because we know that every stupid decision they make isn’t affecting only them, but our precious grandchildren?

All I can say is, “Jesus take the wheel,” because I’m at a complete loss.

Tell me how to be that person who steps back and lets their kids make idiotic decisions without ever saying a word? I am NOT that person, and perhaps that’s the person I need to be.

[MysteryJen]

Sometimes I bite my tongue so hard, I think I will explode.

I can't even imagine putting grandchildren into the mix.

((hugs))

[HomeAgain]

We're not there yet, but thanks for the head's up? Eek!

And I thought the "tween" years were hard.  Not those tween years, but the ones where they're not a child but not an independent adult yet.  Those are...well, they're not easy.

[unsinkable]

18 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

where it says parenting adult children would be HARDER than parenting 2 year-olds??? I think I missed that chapter.

Seriously though - how is it that adult children with children of their own can cause us so much more pain and heartbreak than toddlers or teens?

Is it because we know that every stupid decision they make isn’t affecting only them, but our precious grandchildren?

All I can say is, “Jesus take the wheel,” because I’m at a complete loss.

Tell me how to be that person who steps back and lets their kids make idiotic decisions without ever saying a word? I am NOT that person, and perhaps that’s the person I need to be.

I'm sorry, Stacey. 

I'm not the person who never says a word. I couldn't in good conscience watch my kids make what appear to be poor decisions without giving them my take. Once I DO say something, then I try very hard to shut up. 

I didn't have parents to help me navigate the adult world and I don't want my kids to go through the same thing.

[RootAnn]

Golly, I'm not there yet either and I know I'll be the type to say something, but I do remember what it is like to be on the receiving end. I believe my comment to my mother might have been something like, "You got to make plenty of mistakes raising me. Please allow me the same opportunity."

I know my dad didn't care for us having a large family (despite us having the exact same number of kids he fathered!). He said something once and never again. I know my mom doesn't like how I'm not a fashionista or a make-up queen. She also wants me to instill in my own kids a high amount of care for what other people think. Nope & nope. She likely thinks I'm ruining them for life by not doing this-or-that. Maybe I am. But, I survived my mother's flawed raising of me. I'm hopeful my kids will survive my flawed raising of them.

My "I'm-sure-I'll-feel-differently-when-it-is-me" opinion is that as long as your grandkids are being fed, clothed, and are reasonably safe, try to say something at most ONCE and then just pray for everyone involved - including yourself. I'm sure your tongue will be sore from biting it for years.

[StaceyinLA]

12 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I'm sorry, Stacey. 

I'm not the person who never says a word. I couldn't in good conscience watch my kids make what appear to be poor decisions without giving them my take. Once I DO say something, then I try very hard to shut up. 

I didn't have parents to help me navigate the adult world and I don't want my kids to go through the same thing.

 

I think that’s my problem. I just can’t NOT say something. The thing is, they never have issues asking for my help or advice, until it’s not what they want to hear. At that point, I’m the controlling mom who always has to “judge” them. Of course that’s only until they need me for something again.

I guess I just find it hard to step back because I have such a close relationship with my grandbabies (and really always have with my children). I just need help finding a balance because my heart just can’t take it.

[goldberry]

10 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

I think that’s my problem. I just can’t NOT say something. The thing is, they never have issues asking for my help or advice, until it’s not what they want to hear. At that point, I’m the controlling mom who always has to “judge” them. Of course that’s only until they need me for something again.

 

OMG yes!  And then you are supposed to commiserate when everything falls apart....  

DD at college was telling me she has to get in a certain amount of teaching observation hours.  It's going to be tight with her schedule.  I mentioned maybe trying to get in most of them early, in case she gets sick, or weather gets bad, etc.  "I DO NOT NEED YOU CHECKING UP ON ME!  I WILL HANDLE THIS!"  Um, okay.  Except last semester she was literally hysterical at the end because she waited till the last minute to take care of something, and of course needed mom-comfort.

I asked her to clarify, "Am i allowed to ask how it's going?  Or is that checking up on you?"  "Geez, mom, it's fine."  If I didn't ask she would think I was ignoring her.  If I ask too much I'm checking up on her. I just don't even know what's expected of me half the time. 

((hugs))

[unsinkable]

16 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

I think that’s my problem. I just can’t NOT say something. The thing is, they never have issues asking for my help or advice, until it’s not what they want to hear. At that point, I’m the controlling mom who always has to “judge” them. Of course that’s only until they need me for something again.

I guess I just find it hard to step back because I have such a close relationship with my grandbabies (and really always have with my children). I just need help finding a balance because my heart just can’t take it.

Based on your posts over all these years, I know you're close to them. And I doubt you're chiming in on superficial things and giving inappropriate and hurtful advice.

Of course it is different if you are constantly hounding them with your opinions...save it for the big stuff. I am assuming something Big is happening or you wouldn't be posting.

My advice is to say your piece, then start praying! 

(((hugs)))

[gardenmom5]

I have a friend whose dd and sil went off the deep end. (nothing illegal).  they're still married - but have been exceptionally stupid.  she and the sil's mother are on the same page, and have stepped in to just really love their grandchildren.  to be able to spend as much time with them as they can to be a good example.  and It's really hard, as they can't say anything or they may never be allowed to see the grandchildren.

[liber]

It is hard to say nothing when you see adult children making poor choices.  If it is something serious, I don't bite my tongue.  

Had I known how much the momma heart could hurt I seriously doubt I would have had as many kids as I do, if at all.  Toddlers were far easier.  Too bad they couldn't stay young forever.

[edelweiss]

25 minutes ago, liber said:

It is hard to say nothing when you see adult children making poor choices.  If it is something serious, I don't bite my tongue.  

Had I known how much the momma heart could hurt I seriously doubt I would have had as many kids as I do, if at all.  Toddlers were far easier.  Too bad they couldn't stay young forever.

I agree!! Oh, how I wish that my kids could stay young forever.  Parenting is SOOOO much harder now than it was when they were young.  I think that is why I am not encouraging my children to have kids of their own (I am not discouraging them, but I tell them that being a parent is really hard and that it isn't something that they *have* to do. I really don't care whether I have grandchildren or not).  I love my children beyond words, but I don't know that I would have them if I could go back in time and do it all over again.

 

OP, I am so sorry that you are hurting for your grandchildren.  

 

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

Golly, I'm not there yet either and I know I'll be the type to say something, but I do remember what it is like to be on the receiving end. I believe my comment to my mother might have been something like, "You got to make plenty of mistakes raising me. Please allow me the same opportunity."

I know my dad didn't care for us having a large family (despite us having the exact same number of kids he fathered!). He said something once and never again. I know my mom doesn't like how I'm not a fashionista or a make-up queen. She also wants me to instill in my own kids a high amount of care for what other people think. Nope & nope. She likely thinks I'm ruining them for life by not doing this-or-that. Maybe I am. But, I survived my mother's flawed raising of me. I'm hopeful my kids will survive my flawed raising of them.

My "I'm-sure-I'll-feel-differently-when-it-is-me" opinion is that as long as your grandkids are being fed, clothed, and are reasonably safe, try to say something at most ONCE and then just pray for everyone involved - including yourself. I'm sure your tongue will be sore from biting it for years.

 

Yup. There are generations of flawed people who raised flawed people...we do our best, we make mistakes, we apologize, we move forward. 

[Ailaena]

I tell people that my 23-yo need more parenting than my 3-yo and I am totally serious.   Many hugs to you. 

I learned when dd was very young, though, to let her make mistakes and not say anything unless it’s a dire situation.  She mostly talks through stuff with me now and doesn’t blow up when I disagree with her.   If she had kids, though...  bleh, who knows ?

[ktgrok]

I find that the best way to handle situations of concern is to ask questions rather than give advice. My father does that, and because I get that he is asking out of concern AND will respectuflly listen to my answer, we have no issues. My mother...lover her to pieces but she gives pronouncements, complete with a nice bit of guilt added on. 

So say you are worried about the grandkids diet -

"So, is it hard to make sure they get a balanced diet, with all the processed options everywhere these days? When I was parenting i Think it was easier, because the kids weren't tempted by so much junk, and it was STILL hard. " Add in an anecdote about some difficulty you had. That lets your kid feel like you are offereing compassion, not judgement. 

Another example would be my mother telling me I absolutely shouldn't cosleep or it would ruin my marriage. Sigh. I get she was concerned. But better would have been to ask, "How do you plan to manage adult time with your husband, and the baby in your bed?" Then I could have explained that sometimes the baby started out in her crib, given us some privacy, or that I was using a mattress on the floor so I could go back and forth between beds, or whatever. 

If you think they are not thinking something through, ask questions, open ended ones, and let them prove either they have thought it through, or if they havent, now they will, because you asked them for THEIR plans/thoughts/opinions rather than telling them what to do. 

[StaceyinLA]

Thank you all! I’m honestly not worried about my grandkids per se. My daughter and her husband are separated, but he’s actually stepped up his parenting game for the better, and she’s always been a wonderful parent. Currently it’s just other decisions that don’t really affect the kids personally, but they don’t seem like wise decisions for a parent (such as working in a more unsavory environment than need be). The kids certainly have no clue, and my daughter only works about 10 hours/week (their dad is with them), but it’s a bar and not a classier one. Her thing is she can make more money in less time. Mine is - some things just aren’t worth it.

So my only issue with the grandkids is that if I try to step back some, so I’m not always in the middle of crap that happens, then they suffer (because I’ve been a pretty big constant in their lives), and I suffer (because they’ve been a big constant in MY life).

Just struggling with drawing a line I can live with. ?

[catz]

At the end of the day, it's 10 hours a week and she's supporting her family in a way she feels ok doing for now.  I really don't think making a big deal something like this is going to help your relationship.  If she really can earn more this way, she can spend more time with her kids which is not a dishonorable motivation.  Just keep loving her and her kids and be supportive.  Ask questions without judgment and listen. She'll figure out where she needs to be.

My parents did an amazing job at this.  They would listen and not judge.  I've really seen parent/adult child relationships permanently damage when parents are aggressive with heated and unsolicited opinions.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I feared this was so much worse. (((Stacey))) If dd is a great mom and their dad is getting better, and the kids are really OK, you have breathing room for everything else.

Look the other way about the job, and stay present for the kids. She might really need the money, or to make more in fewer hours. And if she has other options, that type of job wears you down after awhile, anyway.

Your dd probably hopes you'll let this drop and just keep being there as a constant in all their lives, without bringing up what you think of her job. I think that's reasonable, in this case.

 

[Catwoman]

35 minutes ago, StaceyinLA said:

Thank you all! I’m honestly not worried about my grandkids per se. My daughter and her husband are separated, but he’s actually stepped up his parenting game for the better, and she’s always been a wonderful parent. Currently it’s just other decisions that don’t really affect the kids personally, but they don’t seem like wise decisions for a parent (such as working in a more unsavory environment than need be). The kids certainly have no clue, and my daughter only works about 10 hours/week (their dad is with them), but it’s a bar and not a classier one. Her thing is she can make more money in less time. Mine is - some things just aren’t worth it.

So my only issue with the grandkids is that if I try to step back some, so I’m not always in the middle of crap that happens, then they suffer (because I’ve been a pretty big constant in their lives), and I suffer (because they’ve been a big constant in MY life).

Just struggling with drawing a line I can live with. ?

 

 Do you think your dd is in actual danger at her job? Just because the bar isn’t classy doesn’t mean the staff and the regulars aren’t good people who will try to make sure she is safe. Are you worried about the customers, or is the bar in a high crime neighborhood so you worry about her safety when she’s going to and from her car? 

Does your dd feel safe at the job?

[BakersDozen]

I will take a dozen teething babies or rambunctious toddlers over older teens/young adults any day. I feel as though I have aged more the last 4 years since my oldest turned 18 than in the 18 years before that. Mentally/emotionally, it's been rough. I've learned to keep my mouth shut for the most part. Sometimes I will ask a question rather than make a statement and that seems to work. But mostly I keep my mouth shut. My 19yo was just here once again rattling off different options she has for housing and I just sat on the couch, twitching a bit, but I kept my mouth shut.

I do not enjoy being a parent to young adults. Not at all. Which grieves me deeply because I know how things could be if my children made better choices (and didn't blame others for their poor choices). But for now I remind myself that this is not the end of their story. And I keep my mouth shut.

No grandchildren yet and for that I am so thankful because I think things are just going to get worse. I may need to invest in duct tape for my mouth at some point.

[stephanier.1765]

I'm presently keeping my lips firmly shut with one of my married sons. I am so disappointed in his behavior as a husband. DIL is pregnant and he isn't stepping up his game to help around the house even though right now he isn't working (concentrating on school). He also is less than supportive over pregnancy hormones that cause a perfectly normal pregnant woman to cry, vent, or whatever else pregnancy hormones can swirl up. Ugh. I thought he was better than that.

I'm so sorry you and your grandchildren are stuck in the middle of a messy marriage. It never occurred to me before this time in my life that parents still worried over there adult children just like they did when they were actual children.

[scholastica]

2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

Thank you all! I’m honestly not worried about my grandkids per se. My daughter and her husband are separated, but he’s actually stepped up his parenting game for the better, and she’s always been a wonderful parent. Currently it’s just other decisions that don’t really affect the kids personally, but they don’t seem like wise decisions for a parent (such as working in a more unsavory environment than need be). The kids certainly have no clue, and my daughter only works about 10 hours/week (their dad is with them), but it’s a bar and not a classier one. Her thing is she can make more money in less time. Mine is - some things just aren’t worth it.

So my only issue with the grandkids is that if I try to step back some, so I’m not always in the middle of crap that happens, then they suffer (because I’ve been a pretty big constant in their lives), and I suffer (because they’ve been a big constant in MY life).

Just struggling with drawing a line I can live with. ?

Is there a possibility that you can help her out with babysitting so she can get further education to get a better job? Or is she doing this job because it’s part time and she wants to be with the kids?

[catz]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

One thing I have considered doing to bring in a bit more money to try to pay down our debt is pizza delivery (or other food delivery type jobs.)   My mom, who gets sucked in by regular news.   gets freaked out at the idea of me doing such a thing.  DH and I don't NEED the money and such a job would only be temporary, but my mom would silently freak out, thinking I am putting myself in so much jeopardy.  

So are you not doing it just to avoid this confrontation with your mother?  Just curious.

As an adult child, I would feel like my parent didn't trust me to take care of myself or didn't think I had good instincts about moving about in the world if I regularly got this kind of feedback.   I did things when I was younger I suspect gave my parents pause.  Backbacking across Europe at 21.  Learning to drive a motorcyle.  Hiking in a 3rd world country.  Regular wilderness trips with no contact.  Various jobs and housing and relationship situations.  I'm glad they kept their larger concerns primarily to themselves and allowed me to learn and grow from these experiences.  

I'm not talking about being drug addicted or homeless or illegal activity.  Although, I still think many of those types of situations can require you to tread very carefully as well.  

Edited August 30, 2018 by FuzzyCatz

[fairfarmhand]

14 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

Thank you all! I’m honestly not worried about my grandkids per se. My daughter and her husband are separated, but he’s actually stepped up his parenting game for the better, and she’s always been a wonderful parent. Currently it’s just other decisions that don’t really affect the kids personally, but they don’t seem like wise decisions for a parent (such as working in a more unsavory environment than need be). The kids certainly have no clue, and my daughter only works about 10 hours/week (their dad is with them), but it’s a bar and not a classier one. Her thing is she can make more money in less time. Mine is - some things just aren’t worth it.

So my only issue with the grandkids is that if I try to step back some, so I’m not always in the middle of crap that happens, then they suffer (because I’ve been a pretty big constant in their lives), and I suffer (because they’ve been a big constant in MY life).

Just struggling with drawing a line I can live with. ?

My dd works in a place I really didn’t like at all. And...eventually she found out that it wasn’t worth it either. Now she hates the job and is getting a different job that pays less but will be a better environment. So be patient. 

[catz]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Oh goodness no.  Mostly, I just don’t wanna work lol.  I just toy with the idea every so often.  I don’t really mean it lol.  

LOL - I hear you!  ?

[Ravin]

I am fortunate in that my mom has been a excellent role model for this. I could thank one sister in particular for giving her plenty of opportunities for her to illustrate how to handle a train wreck (both well and not so well), while her relationship with me has been a great example of how to graciously handle a kid you do not understand, and who has made different choices than you would, but who is still turning out OK overall at the adult thing and parenting.

[livetoread]

My mother emotionally distances when she gets overwhelmed with worry. The problem is, she gets overwhelmed with worry at levels that I believe she doesn’t really need to, and it has impacted her relationship with us and her grandkids. If she can’t easily “fix” it, and if her sometimes obvious advice isn’t followed, she pulls away. It’s not manipulative, but it feels controlling to be on the other end.

I understand because I see tendencies in myself to do the same thing. I hate chaos and conflict and self-inflicted messiness, but the cost of pulling away is great. I struggle hard to stay emotionally engaged because I don’t want my children to feel emotionally controlled. It’s on me to do the work necessary to manage my worry so that I can still be present. That means checking myself and asking if the worry and desire to disengage fits the level of danger. It’s hard, really hard.

The discussion about having children or not up above is intriguing to me. I wanted children so much, and I’m so glad I had them. If I could come back and live a second life though, would I have them? Probably not as long as I could remember having them the first time. Been there, done that, not interested in doing it again. You just don’t understand the emotional vulnerability that kids bring until you’ve lived it. It might be nice to have a life that is connected to others, but just not quite that much, lol. (See what I mean about the distancing!)

[StaceyinLA]

I talked with dd more yesterday. She says she doesn’t see issues with the place, and that the people who work there are nice people. My issue is more the clientele, and how something could transpire from one of the regulars or something along those lines. She said they have a buddy system in place for after the bar closes (I guess for getting to their cars). 

It’s not in a great place, and it doesn’t have potential for great clientele. She SAYS she is still looking for something else, but this is a job she knew she could get quickly.

The thing is, yes they are in a bind financially because of the separation, and some issues with SIL’s job (just some major changes that actually promoted him, but lowered his pay to some degree because he was making a lot of extra money traveling). I know she feels desperate to make money and get caught up, but it’s just SO frustrating because we have helped them so much over the years (including a $3600 transmission repair in the last couple months), and I feel like she shouldn’t need to do THIS.

At any rate, I’m just praying it’s VERY temporary. ?

P.S. The separation is a whole ‘nuther ballgame, and that part has been EXTREMELY disappointing and frustrating as well. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by StaceyinLA

[lavender's green]

Maybe it's time to transition your relationship from a parenting mode to a friendship mode?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My minor teens worked in places where they didn't go to their cars alone after work, because of the dangerous neighborhood. Sometimes you have to work where the jobs are.

I think your dd sounds very brave. She is looking at the positives, giving her co-workers the benefit of the doubt and choosing to like and trust them, and she is thankful for the opportunity to address her money issues as a newly single mom. She's standing on her own two feet instead of asking you for more money.

I know you are concerned and disappointed, but I'm going to dare to say that I think you might be in the wrong here. Stop giving her money. Respect her ability to work hard with a good attitude. Help with the kids. Encourage her to stay strong. Tell her you are proud of her - I know you must be, but she needs to hear it loud and clear.

[ktgrok]

In those kinds of things,

1. you have to trust her, if you want her to trust and respect you. Tell her that you trust her judgement, but as a mom you can't help but worry about your baby. Remind her of times she's worried about her kids, even when logically she knew they would be okay. That even small risks feel unacceptable when it is your child taking the risk. That it isn't that you don't trust her, it's everyone else you don't trust, lol. (don't all mom's say that?)

2. I find it helps a LOT with my 19 yr old to use some humor, at my own expense. To say, "Listen, i KNOW you already know this, but as a mom it is my duty to say it anyway, or I lose my mom card" and smile. Then say it. 

3. Again, ask questions rather than make pronouncements. "Oh, I thought that was kind of a rough place. But I'm sure you are careful, you know how much your kids need you. What safety programs do they have, like do they have a buddy system to walk to the car, or police that stop by or something?"

4. Buy her some pepper spray, and a pretty new lipstick. Part fun, part serious. Oh, and has she read "The Gift of Fear"? Probably the most practical book out there on staying safe in dicey situations. 

5. Be honest, and ask for her help. "You know I worry, explain to me why I shouldn't?" (goes back to asking questions.)

6. Do some research on your own. I would maybe consider asking any friends who are in law enforcement what they know about the place, or advice they have, and if I didn't have anyone in my circle of friends I might even call the non emergency number for the police in the area and ask to talk to someone when they have time. 

7. If you can't stop worrying, maybe offer to pay for a self protection class, and take it together, with her? As bonding time and safety? Tell her that you can't keep harping on her being safe if you aren't willing to do the same for yourself, so you are going to put your money (and body) where your mouth is and do a class with her?

Hugs. It's so hard to know when to speak up and when not to. My 19 yr old is driving all over the state right now, and going kayaking with people I don't know on the other coast of the state, etc, and it's HARD. Trying to talk to them as you would a close friend rather than a child helps I think. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Ktgrok

[unsinkable]

For all the anecdotes from people who say relationships are ruined bc parents give unwanted advice to their teens and adult children:

My anecdotes are the opposite. Most teens and adult children I know roll with it. 

The ruined relationships between parents and children are much more involved and cannot be traced to the time Mom said *I don't think that bar is safe for you to work at* OR *call me if you're not going to make it home* OR *another piercing!?*

Ruined relationships have deep tentacles and go much deeper than parental advice, IMO.

As always, YMMV. 

[catz]

32 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

For all the anecdotes from people who say relationships are ruined bc parents give unwanted advice to their teens and adult children:

My anecdotes are the opposite. Most teens and adult children I know roll with it. 

The ruined relationships between parents and children are much more involved and cannot be traced to the time Mom said *I don't think that bar is safe for you to work at* OR *call me if you're not going to make it home* OR *another piercing!?*

Ruined relationships have deep tentacles and go much deeper than parental advice, IMO.

As always, YMMV. 

I know I'm definitely not saying relationships are ruined from one off expressions of concern or the occasional advice.   

I do think there are transitional years for most young adults where they may be getting financial help and you're entrenched in helping them launch and they may need guidance to get there.  I do think it can over time hurt to be deeply embedded in every adult decision for years and years, or if the young adult always feels like they're being second guessed or judged it can hurt a relationship over time.  Only the OP knows her own situation fully, I'm just speaking generally.  I do appreciate that at some point my parents transitioned to waiting until I came to them and just asking thoughtful questions.  "Oh, your new job is downtown right?  Is it safe walking to your car when you're off shift late in that area?".  

I think it's perfectly normal for a newly separated mother to want to be earning her own money and to be more financially independent.  Financial dependance often comes with it's own set of baggage, even if it's just feeling indebted and there's nothing else.   I bet it feels empowering for her.  I totally get it's hard to keep our mom thoughts to ourselves sometimes.   

[J-rap]

I don't have advice, but I agree that parenting young adults can be much, much more difficult than parenting 2-year-olds!  This was a total surprise to me.  I guess their problems are so much more important as they get older, while at the same time your relationship with them is different and you can't just step in and tell them what to do and fix it for them.

[zimom]

I think this is going to be really interesting for me..  I have one married DC (but no grands) and one in college but I basically never had parents as an adult (one deceased and one 'checked out' early).   I never imagined it would be harder when they were adults.  Your words, Stacy, have me really thinking.  

[StaceyinLA]

I appreciate all the advice. I really do.

I've talked more to her, and I think we will survive this. I'm still gonna be praying she finds something better overall, but as long as she is being a good parent to, and taking care of, my grandkids, I'm just gonna have to suck it up. I get it. It's hard, but I really am working on it.