Vent about defining Homeschool

[Carrie12345]

First, I support public cyber school options.  I have my caveats, but that's beside the point.  I also technically support diploma programs, I suppose. I've used a public cyber for two kids, one year each.  I've never had a desire to use a diploma program, but that's also beside the point. I've been in and run co-ops that support every family's options and it's been a beautiful thing.

But I finally had my first technical difficulty.  Dd wanted to dual enroll this semester. We had to deal with a new person at the community college, but she was consulting with the regular person who was physically at the other campus.  I told her dd was homeschooled.  She asked who keeps her transcripts.  I said I did.  She called back to try to clarify, asking if dd was enrolled with a program.  No.  Is she homeschooled through a school district?  No; she's registered as a legal homeschooler in the ______ School District. We need them to provide her transcript.  No. They don't have her transcript; she is homeschooled under the PA homeschool regulations. Under which organization? None. We can't enroll her without an official transcript.  Yes, you can. This is her official transcript,, just like the ones you have from other homeschooled students.  Our system requires an official transcript and I can't complete her enrollment without it.

The entire time, this woman was actually very nice, especially considering how pissy I was getting.  It wasn't that she had any ill will, she just didn't know what this thing called homeschooling actually is today.  She still doesn't, as far as I can tell.  When I finally mentioned sending dd's transcripts from two other colleges and dd's Accuplacer tests came back with 112 and 119 out of 120, she did manage to find a way to push the enrollment through.  But what if she hadn't taken college courses elsewhere or hadn't scored quite as well (but still passable)?  I don't find this school to be anti-homeschooler at all, I just think they're accustomed to cyber schoolers and diploma programs.

Anyway, this is my little vent to share a very real reason why, in official contexts, it would be good to quit calling public and private home-based programs "homeschool". I know that it can look identical to what many homeschoolers are doing, but the lumping of all these words and methods came close to screwing my kid out of opportunities.

 

 

[Serenade]

I'm sorry you had to deal with this but glad it worked out in the end. 

 

[scholastica]

It sounds more like poor training is to blame.  No-one ever told her that parents can produce official transcripts and that those are acceptable. I would consider complaining about her level of training to whoever is the responsible party. 

[6packofun]

I am dealing with the same thing at our community college.  They don't seem to understand how homeschooling works here in Ohio at all--what is the parent's responsibility and what limited role the local school has.  They keep asking for the school district to send them something that shows our kids graduated.  Umm, *I* graduated them! I have the transcripts, our excusal letters, and yearly test scores!  Going around and around with them.

Edited August 19, 2018 by 6packofun
typo

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, 6packofun said:

I am dealing with the same thing at our community college.  They don't seem to understand how homeschooling works here in Ohio at all--what is the parent's responsibility and what limited role the local school has.  They keep asking for the school district to send them something that shows our kids graduated.  Umm, *I* graduated them! I have the transcripts, our excusal letters, and yearly test scores!  Going around and around with them.

?  I'm sorry.  It's completely ridiculous how highly selective schools have figured out how to navigate this, but schools who generally take anyone with a way to pay are somehow incapable of recognizing their own state's regulations.

[Carrie12345]

25 minutes ago, scholastica said:

It sounds more like poor training is to blame.  No-one ever told her that parents can produce official transcripts and that those are acceptable. I would consider complaining about her level of training to whoever is the responsible party. 

That's an interesting take.  Who would be responsible for this training and who would verify that the trainer even understood how homeschooling works (and what isn't homeschooling) in their state?  The trainer in our case didn't seem to know the difference, herself, seeing how they were in communication through this.

[Farrar]

I would also complain to a higher up. Just to say, look, this was worked out for us, but it's obvious that your staff don't understand the homeschool options in this state.

While I agree that poor training is basically to blame (it's her job to know this stuff - she's not a random misinformed person), I'd also say that the general sense in many states has shifted so that lots of people think that homeschool=online school/umbrella/other "official" style program. And that's annoying if you're an independent homeschooler - which is legal in the vast majority of states. But I don't know what can really be done about it. I mean, I think it's sort of a different version of the same thing independent homeschoolers faced decades ago. Back then it was - is it legal to do that? Now everyone knows that homeschooling is a thing and that it's legal, but many increasingly think that you have to be in a "program" of some kind.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Farrar

[regentrude]

It is annoying, but we should remember that homeschooled students constitute a very small minority of the students colleges deal with. So I am not surprised to come across admissions personnel who are uninformed about homeschooling. On the scale of things they are expected to be knowledgeable about,  homeschooling probably ranks fairly low. We can help by educating them ?

[Jean in Newcastle]

 "Homeschooling" is becoming more common but actual all-at-home homeschooling is becoming less and less common.  I have had this reaction more than once - including from those who identify as  homeschoolers but are actually under the auspices of either public or private teachers. 

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

That's an interesting take.  Who would be responsible for this training and who would verify that the trainer even understood how homeschooling works (and what isn't homeschooling) in their state?  The trainer in our case didn't seem to know the difference, herself, seeing how they were in communication through this.

I would think the Admissions Director or Dual Enrollment coordinator, if there is such a person, would be the person to contact. Just to let them know you had this problem and to make sure the staff understands the possible permutations of homeschooling and transcripts they may see.

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

It is annoying, but we should remember that homeschooled students constitute a very small minority of the students colleges deal with. So I am not surprised to come across admissions personnel who are uninformed about homeschooling. On the scale of things they are expected to be knowledgeable about,  homeschooling probably ranks fairly low. We can help by educating them ?

 

This really depends on where you live. Home schooling is booming in my state. I doubt there’s a single neighborhood in my city without someone who is identifying as some kind of home schooler.

We are still a very small percentage of the overall students here, but I don’t know anyone who isn’t familiar with homeschooling in some way these day. Whereas 18 years ago when I started, it was still considered something rather rare and unfamiliar. 

[Farrar]

For a random person on the street, yeah, homeschoolers are a tiny minority. If they don't know, they don't know. Whatcha gonna do?

For someone whose whole job is admitting qualified high school students to dual enrollment... she needs to know. It's her JOB. Just like she should know the ins and outs of the law regarding which public school students are qualified or exactly what test score numbers you need on the Accuplacer or whatever. That's not stuff average people know either. But she does. Because it's part of her job. She should know who she is legally or by the rules supposed to admit and who she isn't.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Farrar

[Chris in VA]

4 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I was homeschooled, graduated in 2000.  I attended community college my senior year of high school as a dual enrollment student. Graduated from CC in 2001, earned my bachelor’s from a Christian liberal arts school in 2004, then went back to the CC for my paramedic certification.

No problems with being homeschooled. None. They welcomed me and all the other homeschoolers with open arms.

Fast forward to 2018.  I go back to the same CC and apply for their nursing program.  You would not BELIEVE the struggle.  Where was my official transcript? Why didn’t I have one?  I needed a letter from the superintendent of the school i would have graduated from stating the education I received as a homeschooler was equivalent to a graduate of their high school.  No matter that I graduated almost two decades ago and my mother stopped reporting to the school district when I was 17 and she no longer legally had to.  Also, the school district doesn’t have homeschool paperwork from 20 years ago.  Well, then, I’d just have to go get my GED.  Or something.  And why didn’t I have an official transcript?

I finally got it straightened out, but it was ridiculous.  It was so different from twenty years ago.  No one asked for an official transcript then or cared.   I had good SAT scores and passed their ability to benefit test with flying colors, and it was all good back in 1999.

The only difference I can come up with now is that most of the homeshoolers in the area are either using online charter schools or sending their kids to the Christian school in 11th or 12th grade for the diploma and transcript.  

Bolded mine--

This, alone, should have been proof enough that you "passed high school." 

I've never seen a college need a high school diploma/transcript when a prospective student has completed a college degree program. Dh, for example, did not need to show his high school transcript to his seminary (where he was applying to obtain his Master's degree) or his graduate program (for his Ph.D.)

[G5052]

Our local community college has thankfully always been very knowledgeable about homeschool admissions and registration. Part of was that I used to teach there and helped edit their guidelines and procedures ?. They still want an "official" transcript with an original signature and college or institutional testing, but that's it.

For dual enrollment I had to sign a "I'm following state laws on homeschooling" form and provide a copy of the county letter showing that I had filed the necessary stuff with them. Apparently, that's state law. I know of people who are unregistered homeschoolers who just put together a transcript and graduated their kids on paper in order to bypass that even though they really weren't done with homeschooling. I don't know about that, but I guess it got them what they wanted.

[Targhee]

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 "Homeschooling" is becoming more common but actual all-at-home homeschooling is becoming less and less common.  I have had this reaction more than once - including from those who identify as  homeschoolers but are actually under the auspices of either public or private teachers. 

Yes, and it is at times like this that there seems to be a need for distinction between receiving an education at home (with outside cover/charter/virtual/state-overseen help) and “homeschooling” (independently taking responsibility for your child’s education).  I neither want there to be an expectation of an “official” transcript nor have uninvited intrusion from the state into what we are doing at home. I too have used state sponsored cover schools, and have no ill will or think they are any less, but think there should be a distinction. What distinction I’m not entirely sure.

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

?  I'm sorry.  It's completely ridiculous how highly selective schools have figured out how to navigate this, but schools who generally take anyone with a way to pay are somehow incapable of recognizing their own state's regulations.

It was so much like this that I had my youngest (who was enrolled in a private school since that was the rule at the time here in AL and may still be but I retired three years ago) go to University for her dual enrollment because they seemed to be under the impression that we had the same requirements for high school as did the public schools and she hadn't done some idiotic non-important school requirement.  Something like career exploration or something like that.  Of course, we always encouraged the children to learn about careers but never did a class in that.  We used summer programs, visits to places, etc,. for that kind of thing.

[Crimson Wife]

41 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

I've never seen a college need a high school diploma/transcript when a prospective student has completed a college degree program. Dh, for example, did not need to show his high school transcript to his seminary (where he was applying to obtain his Master's degree) or his graduate program (for his Ph.D.)

When I applied to the Speech & Language Pathology Assistant program at the CC in my region offering that, they insisted they needed a transcript from my high school despite the fact that I had earned a bachelor's degree & it was verified on the transcript sent from that university. It was the STUPIDEST requirement. Fortunately I was able to talk them into making a photocopy of my H.S. diploma (which fortunately I had) and accepting that in lieu of a transcript.

I wasn't trying to get out of pre-requisites based on my high school coursework or anything that would've made the high school transcript relevant. It was a "check the box" thing with no logical reason behind the requirement.

[HSmomof2]

I’ve been hearing more and more people talking about difficulties like this, and I think it’s ridiculous. Especially for those with a COLLEGE DEGREE being required to come up with a high school diploma!  For this reason alone, as I’m unsure what ds will do after high school, he’s enrolled with Bridgeway Academy. It’s probably not necessary, and possibly a waste of money, but I kinda look at it as a type of “insurance”, and they were the most flexible we found for choosing our own curricula and outside courses. And I’ve stopped worrying and obsessing as much about HS high school. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by HSmomof2

[shawthorne44]

I would expect that there would be a document that could be pulled up with all the information the Enrollment Person needed to handle any situation slightly off the norm.   I imagine that 'Enrolling Homeschooling' wouldn't be the only such document.   People from outside the county, for example.   Maybe certain accommodations might change something on enrollment.  

I am sure the OP would have been happy to wait for 5 minutes while the enroller figured out the rules.  

As DH says, "There you go, getting all logical".    Maybe that is why the selective schools are better at figuring out homeschoolers.  

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

...Partly I blame NY’s rule, new since I graduated,  that everyone at a SUNY school must have an accredited high school diploma or a GED...

Ah, NY and SUNY -- well, there you go. That explains a lot. (:D

[scholastica]

42 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Ah, NY and SUNY -- well, there you go. That explains a lot. (:D

As a former New Yorker, I concur.

[happypamama]

So frustrating!  Glad she got it worked out.

 

(I offered DD dual enrollment here in PA this year.  She wasn't interested.  I didn't push it, because logistically, it would be a nightmare for me, but I was willing if she was interested.  I don't know if we'd have had the same problem or not.  One of our local colleges has a dedicated homeschool admissions counselor and runs programs for homeschoolers, so they'd probably be fine, but I don't know about the CCs.)

[Farrar]

What I especially loathe about situations like the one in the OP and MedicMom's is the way in which petty bureaucrats often want you to prostrate yourself and beg for their indulgence in the name of common sense. I have so much trouble doing it. Totally different situation, but one time I was doing some purchasing for a nonprofit. I had the discount card from the business given to nonprofits and my proof of employment there, but I had forgotten the tax free card. Oops. I said, it's obvious we're tax free, can you overlook it? The guy hemmed and hawed. So I was like, "You're right. I'll just pay the tax. It's not a big deal." Then he really got upset. For the next half hour, I had to stand there as he basically didn't ring up the purchases and instead gave me a lengthy lecture about how I should have brought the card (duh, I know) and how he was SOOOOOO nice to be ringing it up tax free for me when he REALLY shouldn't and shouldn't I be thanking him? Why wasn't I being more grateful? Shouldn't I be nicer about it? He held up the whole transaction for so long, I couldn't believe it. I feel like that's what these kinds of people want. They want to dangle you on a string and be dramatic about the whole deal. I don't know what can possibly be done. Moan moan. I'm so put upon. Look at me be a stickler about the rules. I don't make them or know much about them, but gosh they're important. ?

[Targhee]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

What I especially loathe about situations like the one in the OP and MedicMom's is the way in which petty bureaucrats often want you to prostrate yourself and beg for their indulgence in the name of common sense. I have so much trouble doing it. Totally different situation, but one time I was doing some purchasing for a nonprofit. I had the discount card from the business given to nonprofits and my proof of employment there, but I had forgotten the tax free card. Oops. I said, it's obvious we're tax free, can you overlook it? The guy hemmed and hawed. So I was like, "You're right. I'll just pay the tax. It's not a big deal." Then he really got upset. For the next half hour, I had to stand there as he basically didn't ring up the purchases and instead gave me a lengthy lecture about how I should have brought the card (duh, I know) and how he was SOOOOOO nice to be ringing it up tax free for me when he REALLY shouldn't and shouldn't I be thanking him? Why wasn't I being more grateful? Shouldn't I be nicer about it? He held up the whole transaction for so long, I couldn't believe it. I feel like that's what these kinds of people want. They want to dangle you on a string and be dramatic about the whole deal. I don't know what can possibly be done. Moan moan. I'm so put upon. Look at me be a stickler about the rules. I don't make them or know much about them, but gosh they're important. ?

Yes. Try getting anything done on a military installation ?

[6packofun]

11 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

Where was my official transcript? Why didn’t I have one?  I needed a letter from the superintendent of the school i would have graduated from stating the education I received as a homeschooler was equivalent to a graduate of their high school.  No matter that I graduated almost two decades ago and my mother stopped reporting to the school district when I was 17 and she no longer legally had to.  Also, the school district doesn’t have homeschool paperwork from 20 years ago.  Well, then, I’d just have to go get my GED.  Or something.  And why didn’t I have an official transcript?

Yes!!  The bolded is almost word-for-word what they are telling homeschoolers at our cc!  Ugh.  I'm glad it worked out for you!

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, HSmomof2 said:

I’ve been hearing more and more people talking about difficulties like this, and I think it’s ridiculous. Especially for those with a COLLEGE DEGREE being required to come up with a high school diploma!  For this reason alone, as I’m unsure what ds will do after high school, he’s enrolled with Bridgeway Academy. It’s probably not necessary, and possibly a waste of money, but I kinda look at it as a type of “insurance”, and they were the most flexible we found for choosing our own curricula and outside courses. And I’ve stopped worrying and obsessing as much about HS high school. 

FTR, this is one reason to be a member of HSLDA, because they will get involved on behalf of former members in such stupid situations.

[milovany]

Regarding it not being necessary to show a high school transcript if you have a bachelor's degree, I would go so far as to say you shouldn't have to verify high school if you've been admitted to college and are progressing through classes successfully there. That was our situation. For my daughter to get into a two year vet tech program at the local community college, she had to do some prerequisites, which she did in her senior year through the Running Start program (so, she was officially enrolled in college; the state university where she did RS accepted her as a homeschooled student, no problem). Through RS, she took some science classes and math -- the prereqs -- and got A's in it all. The official college stance is that she's a college student; nowhere on her transcript does it say she was in Running Start.  That's probably how it works everywhere, but it's definitely how it works here.  When she went to apply for the Vet Tech program at the local two year college, the director of the program indicated that it could be a problem that she didn't have a "real" homeschool diploma.  She said the department and the school were fine with her documentation, it's the national Vet Tech association that has been known to fuss about the credentials of a homeschooled student. She indicated they may require her to get her GED before allowing her into the program.  It was so annoying.  We homeschooled legally, she graduated legally, her diploma is fully recognized by the state, etc.  There's no way she should be required to get the GED.  I contacted two main offices: One was the largest veterinary program at our second largest state university to ask if they accept homeschooled students without requiring a GED and she said absolutely (and in fact, they prefer that over the GED), and the second was the homeschool rep at the Office of the Superintendent for Public Instruction and I asked her point blank, "Does the state of Washington recognize my homeschooled daughter as a high school graduate?" to which she replied "Yes."  I sent these e-mails to the director of the Vet Tech program and she said she'll keep the packet of information, including those e-mails (and other information I sent her), and just play it by ear.  I think the issue has passed because she's in the program now, is at the top of her class, and was one of two or three students in the program accepted for a paid internship at a nearby emergency vet. hospital.  It worked out well in the end, but good grief -- homeschooling is so mainstream now.  Know what the laws are if you're working with homeschooled students!

On a related note, at one point, this same homeschool rep at the OSPI sent me an e-mail saying that to be graduate from high school, my kids need to follow the state public school curriculum.  That was so wrong!  In our homeschool law, there are 11 subjects listed that we have to cover.  That's it.  No four years of this, two years of that, number of credits total, etc.  None. Of. That.  I was flabbergasted when I received her reply because she's the official homeschool liaison in the capital of our state.  Again, know what the laws are if you're working with homeschooled students -- and especially if you're going to represent them and be their voice with the state government. 

ETA: Should we move on to talking about trying to get a passport when your kids were home birthed now? Ugh. Very similar story for us -- "Uh, we filled out all the official paperwork and got the state-issued birth certificate for her when she was born 18 years ago; no, I don't have any hospital receipts from back then to prove she was born in the USA. But you have in your hands her state-issued birth certificate which has all the necessary requirements according to your own website."

Edited August 20, 2018 by milovany

[Katy]

15 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

Bolded mine--

This, alone, should have been proof enough that you "passed high school." 

I've never seen a college need a high school diploma/transcript when a prospective student has completed a college degree program. Dh, for example, did not need to show his high school transcript to his seminary (where he was applying to obtain his Master's degree) or his graduate program (for his Ph.D.)

 

15 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

When I applied to the Speech & Language Pathology Assistant program at the CC in my region offering that, they insisted they needed a transcript from my high school despite the fact that I had earned a bachelor's degree & it was verified on the transcript sent from that university. It was the STUPIDEST requirement. Fortunately I was able to talk them into making a photocopy of my H.S. diploma (which fortunately I had) and accepting that in lieu of a transcript.

I wasn't trying to get out of pre-requisites based on my high school coursework or anything that would've made the high school transcript relevant. It was a "check the box" thing with no logical reason behind the requirement.

 

I've seen this too, with a family member who had to attend a different grad school than he preferred b/c his high school was private and not accredited.  He had a 4.0 bachelor's degree from the most competitive state university in his region, but that didn't matter because his mom cared more about sheltering him from the crappy public school he would have attended than about whether his private school had state accreditation at the time (and when he went it was VERY RARE for a private school in that state to bother with accreditation because there were no exemptions for rules that wouldn't apply to that school's population anyway). Since then exemptions were passed and most private schools  do jump through the remaining hoops, but still... bureaucracy is ridiculous.