You guys' ideas for sound names, Peter Pan, especially!

[ElizabethB]

I have a post on the chat board, because I want as many ideas as possible, but you guys here will probably have the best ideas for names for sounds:

 

[PeterPan]

I called l/r lifters. You lift your tongue to make them. We did not teach th/TH, so I'm less creative there. I would probably use something like teeth sounds, through sounds, or just plain call them dentals and move on. I would have no objection to dentals and it would be precisely correct.

Technically /ch/ and /j/ are rounded, but I think I described the shaping of the lips for *vowels* not consonants. For consonants I may have called those choo-choos or rounded, I just don't recall. I probably called them choo-choos.

For f/v, I think I did something inglorious like calling them fuffers. (I'm Peter Pan. I can get away with anything,  it seems, lol.)

You already know that "y" for orthography is both a vowel and consonant, meaning it needs to go twice under the vowel pictures and then again under a consonant picture. I'd have to check my pictures, but I may have put that jot (the technical name for the sound) under orphans. Remember Peter Pan had the orphan boys and pirates to deal with, so of course I had orphans and pirates. 

Remember, the groupings you're using are from LIPS and recognizable as coming from LIPS, their intellectual property. I think you're going to have copyright issues to check. Some businesses and authors are extremely picky about third party use of their information when creating materials. I don't know where Gander Publishing is on that, but to any degree that you're using their ideas in your materials/videos, you'll want to check. Technically, using my labels is using my intellectual property btw, something you also should ask about. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by PeterPan

[ElizabethB]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I called l/r lifters. You lift your tongue to make them. We did not teach th/TH, so I'm less creative there. I would probably use something like teeth sounds, through sounds, or just plain call them dentals and move on. I would have no objection to dentals and it would be precisely correct.

Technically /ch/ and /j/ are rounded, but I think I described the shaping of the lips for *vowels* not consonants. For consonants I may have called those choo-choos or rounded, I just don't recall. I probably called them choo-choos.

For f/v, I think I did something inglorious like calling them fuffers. (I'm Peter Pan. I can get away with anything,  it seems, lol.)

You already know that "y" for orthography is both a vowel and consonant, meaning it needs to go twice under the vowel pictures and then again under a consonant picture. I'd have to check my pictures, but I may have put that jot (the technical name for the sound) under orphans. Remember Peter Pan had the orphan boys and pirates to deal with, so of course I had orphans and pirates. 

Remember, the groupings you're using are from LIPS and recognizable as coming from LIPS, their intellectual property. I think you're going to have copyright issues to check. Some businesses and authors are extremely picky about third party use of their information when creating materials. I don't know where Gander Publishing is on that, but to any degree that you're using their ideas in your materials/videos, you'll want to check. Technically, using my labels is using my intellectual property btw, something you also should ask about. 

:)  I'll go with my own labels over theirs, then, and ones from older books whose copyright has expired, I have a ton of those!!  Can I use your labels for my non-profit? We are run entirely by volunteers and all the money donated goes to help people in need learn to read!

The groupings are actually found in phonetics books that are so old the copyright has been gone for years, but the names are not, I'll find new names.  I'm thinking bilabial voiced stop, bilabial voiceless stop, lingua-velar bilabial oral resonant glide, and lingua-dental voiceless fricative aren't too catchy among the kindergarten crowd.

I can't figure out where to put Y as a consonant.  My phonetics book seems to think it's close to W/WH, but I'm not sure if it's close enough or not, it actually seems like a closer sound to L/R than anything, but I'm not an expert on these things.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

I can't figure out where to put Y as a consonant.

I think this may get swanky with an embedded picture... I put qu, y, and x as orphans. I guess you could debate x, but the sound is so far forward in production that I didn't really feel the need to leave it under coughers, which are all back consonants. And really, my board ran out of space under coughers anyway, lol. We may not have gotten to everything at the point where I took that picture, because I don't see a /zh/ equivalent. I don't see ir or ur on the board either. So if you think things are missing, you're not crazy. I guess you could try to make an argument to put /y/ under lifters, but does LIPS teach it that way? I don't remember. /y/ is very different, with retraction as well the tongue. It wouldn't fit well visually under lifters in the LIPS paradigm, and I was looking very specifically at production. Remember, I was doing PROMPT along with this, so it had to be defensible by production. Where it wasn't pretty tight, I just said fine toss it in orphans. For our situation, it was better to have orphans.I'm not sure why /w/ is under huffers. LIPS must have taught it that way. For production, the sensory-motor prompts are totally totally different for /h/ and /w/ and aspirating the /w/ is dialectal. But I was trying to do LIPS and just rolling with it. At age 5/6, they don't care, lol. Will the person feel their breath with /w/? I guess. 

I didn't have to be perfect with what I did, because all I had to do was do enough that he could connect orthography and sound and read. It worked. We built our board tediously, one sound at a time, one picture at a time, and we did everything both directions and built it over and over. 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

I'm not sure about some of her names and categories.  The video is aimed at adults, how to teach the charts, so I'm going to go with the really boring names in the common domain.  I have the numbers as row numbers on my chart.  The scientific naming conventions actually explain the phonics better than the LiPS categories.  Basically, I'm trying to explain how the way they are made interacts with how to build and sound out words and some changes like leaf/leaves, the type of endings for ed (which plays into stops vs. fricatives), s as its consonant pair as z, etc.  Also, the resonants are easier to learn to blend, except ng and y are difficult sounds so people having trouble blending should start with m, n, and l and r before vowels, not after where they interact.  So, word like me, no, ray, lay, am, an, in, and syllables ra re ri ro ru, ma me mi mo mu, am em im om um, etc. 

Here is a list:

1. P bilabial voiceless stop

    B bilabial voiced stop

2. WH lingua-velar, bilabial voiceless fricative

     W lingua-velar, bilabial oral resonant glide

3. F labio-dental voiceless fricative

    V labio-dental voiced fricative

4. TH lingua-dental voiceless fricative

    TH lingua-dental voiced fricative

5. T lingua-alveolar voiceless stop

     D lingua-alveolar voiced stop

6. S lingua-alveolar voiceless fricative

    Z lingua-alveolar voiced fricative

7. SH lingua-palatal voiceless fricative

     ZH lingua-palatal voiced fricative

8. CH lingua-alveolar, lingua-palatal, voiceless affricative

     J lingua-alveolar, lingua-palatal, voiced affricative

9. K lingua-velar voiceless stop

    G lingua-velar voiced stop

10. H lingua-velar, lingua-palatal, voiceless fricative

 

1. M bilabial nasal resonant

5. N lingua-alveolar nasal resonant

9. NG lingua-velar nasal resonant

 

5. L lingua-alveolar lateral oral resonant

5. R lingua-palatal oral resonant

6. Y lingua-palatal oral resonant glide

[PeterPan]

Yeah, if you're saying should you call them by production or by cute alliterating names, well like you say I was working with age 5/6 and you're targeting adults. I think putting in all that could launch it into rabbit trails that LIPS had simplified with their pictures and use of mirrors, etc. If you want to use my names, you're welcome to. Just put some kind of quiet note about them having come from a friend on the internet or whatever. 

Noting voiced/voiceless is always useful. I'm all about the simple and I'm pretty b&w. The linguistics stuff would be overwhelming to the average person I think. It would almost be easier to do like the new LIPS alternative (name slips my mind, the one endorsed by Barton) and use the palate drawings. I wouldn't, but you could. 

The prompt for ng is the same as n, ironically, both just touches on the side of the nose. For m it's slightly different, with lips together and a touch on the lips. So I get where, in theory, blending with ng might be hard, but when you have the sensory-motor input it's actually pretty straightforward. I saw your use of open syllables in your materials and it confused me. It's not clear whether to use long vowels there, and if you do that's a much more complex motor planning thing. But I was dealing with the apraxia thing, always always.

I think I may have figured out something, or else I'm just rabbit trailing. In Word Callers (Cartwright) she was talking about categorizing things multiple ways and strong readers generally being able to process orthography and meaning at the same time while people with less comprehension were processing only one factor at a time. Perhaps *I* am a word caller, haha. I mean, look at it. I simplified everything to *1* parameter, one aspect to look at. Your chart is more complex, allowing you to track multiple parameters at once. I look at that and my head swoons, but I think that's what it is, that my brain is not trying to wrangle with multiple parameters at once. Just simple simple, lol. Anyways, the Cartwright book might interest you at some point.

[PeterPan]

Ps. I'm not seeing k, etc. on your list or your solution on how to place x. Nevermind, I found k/g. It looks like you're choosing to separate w/wh and h, which is interesting. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by PeterPan