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Why do we accept the idea of age grades?


SamanthaCarter
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It seems silly to me that we as a group would not outright reject the idea of placing our child in a grade. I’ve been telling my kids that when a person asks what grade they are in, they need to respond by telling them thier age (that’s what they are asking anyway). I tell the kids that grades are for organizing groups of kids, and as homeschoolers and not a building full of children, we don’t have any groups. 

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 

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16 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

It seems silly to me that we as a group would not outright reject the idea of placing our child in a grade. I’ve been telling my kids that when a person asks what grade they are in, they need to respond by telling them thier age (that’s what they are asking anyway). I tell the kids that grades are for organizing groups of kids, and as homeschoolers and not a building full of children, we don’t have any groups. 

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 

 

The homeschoolers I know still organize themselves into groups for some things. AHG has gone by what you said. They don't care what grade of material you are studying in school, the group you are in is based on your birthday. They might say "Grades" for each level, but it is really based on age by a certain date. And our group gets a lot of pushback from homeschoolers whose kids are working at a higher grade because of this. Without realizing there are public schoolers who are working at different levels as well. They may be in a specific "grade" -- and working on way different material than what is traditionally done in that grade. Just because public schools do group into grades but still see the need to meet kids at their level. (even if not as perfectly individually tailored as one can do in a homeschool setting)

 

But homeschoolers do Sunday school, AWANA, Camps, and other events where they get together with other kids for various reasons.

 

(and age doesn't really work as a substitute. My daughter is starting 2nd grade and just turned 7 today. The pastor's son is also a 2nd grader and in her classes. But he's 8.5 and will turn 9 this year. But they are still working approximately at the same level and thus are grouped together for things that need to group kids together.  My son could read (well) months before he started Kindergarten formally -- He was reading Dr. Seuss books by himself in March (Not board books, the 60-ish pages ones) And could easily read the parent newsletters the principal sent home even in Kindergarten. It was something the teachers had to take into account when planning activities in outside activities. So even the grade level can break down when you've got kids performing far outside of level.

 

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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Because things should be grouped by age to some degree.  Church Sunday School classes, youth group, Co-op groups, scouting groups......it just should.

There was a LOT of angst in our homeschool groups with age restrictions and grade restrictions.  We had parents truly believing that their 10 year old should be placed in high school classes because he/she was "so advanced."  What we discovered was that A. The child wasn't nearly as advanced as the parent said, and B. The child could not deal with being with all older kids socially.

This wasn't just ONE time.....this was over and over again.

NO ONE wants to be the one to say, "My kid is 10 and performing at a 1st grade level, so please put him/her with the first graders."  They ALWAYS want their child placed with the older kids and their kids are ALWAYS "advanced." (even if he/she isn't!)

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I’m with you, but admit to not helping the problem bc I’ve given up on the explaining. It’s just flat out easier to say 1st, 6th or whatever when someone asks, especially when they ask the DC directly. We moved this summer and so have met tons of new people in situations where they ask ‘what grade are you?’ And the reality is that they don’t really care; it’s apparently just what you ask a kid you don’t know. Therefore the answer doesn’t really matter either, so my kids just answer with a grade and life moves on. Most of the time homeschooling doesn’t even come up, because the question was really just intended as a way to talk to the children during introductions. I guess (?). And while we’re (or I’m!) on the subject, can we please not play the guessing game in kids’ ages?!?? I have small DC...it does NOT make them feel good when you guess that my 13 year old is 9, or that my 10 year old is 8, or whatever! It drives me crazy that adults don’t get this! Sorry...I guess I needed a rant more than I realized today. ?

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4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

The homeschoolers I know still organize themselves into groups for some things. AHG has gone by what you said. They don't care what grade of material you are studying in school, the group you are in is based on your birthday. They might say "Grades" for each level, but it is really based on age by a certain date. And our group gets a lot of pushback from homeschoolers whose kids are working at a higher grade because of this. Without realizing there are public schoolers who are working at different levels as well. They may be in a specific "grade" -- and working on way different material than what is traditionally done in that grade. Just because public schools do group into grades but still see the need to meet kids at their level. (even if not as perfectly individually tailored as one can do in a homeschool setting)

 

But homeschoolers do Sunday school, AWANA, Camps, and other events where they get together with other kids for various reasons.

 

 

 

I agree with this.  In public schools grades aren't about what level materials the students are working on.  It is more about age and class progression. There are base level requirements that a student should meet by that grade, but that doesn't reflect what goes on in a classroom.  Each classroom has students working at multiple levels in a variety of subjects even though they all are in the same grade.  

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At some point, most of us probably anticipate that our kids will join or rejoin actual schools, whether it's in college or before. I think I tend to have a grade level in mind based on that expectation, even if a child is working ahead or behind in any given subject. 

My own kids also started in public school, and remained in touch with others from their own grades. They would be very well aware if, say, a friend graduated before or after they did. The grade remains socially relevant, even if it's not academically relevant. But mine are both teens now, and younger kids might not notice.

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37 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 

No confusion in my dc's mind. They just want to be grouped with their friends, whether they are the same age or a little older/younger. They don't really care about what grade name is tagged to this. Grades are only relevant for outside the home activities. 

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50 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

It seems silly to me that we as a group would not outright reject the idea of placing our child in a grade. I’ve been telling my kids that when a person asks what grade they are in, they need to respond by telling them thier age (that’s what they are asking anyway). I tell the kids that grades are for organizing groups of kids, and as homeschoolers and not a building full of children, we don’t have any groups. 

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 



Because it's an easy way to categorize ability/level of education.
Because it succintly translates to society.

We don't think about grades at home.  If a child is 11 that doesn't necessarily mean they will be in a "matching" gradebook in any one particular text.  


What I don't understand is when homeschoolers feel a pressing need to advance an unready child or refusal to advance a child and would rather keep them in their age/grade matched materials.  That has always confused me.

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50 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers?

Because it serves as a countdown until when I will be done teaching them.  hahaha

Just because your kids respond with a grade doesn't mean they have to be doing XYZ in school or at home ... and I think quite a few HSers subscribe to that idea. 

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For me, I can’t fully reject the idea of grades because 1) we live in a world that uses it interchangeably with age and my kids participate in that world (sports, drama class, summer camps, etc) and my kids needed a term to relate with public school peers on, 2) we are still compared to grade norms (educational evaluation, end of year testing), 3) it can serve as a guide at times when you are unsure of what to do next in homeschooling and need a starting reference (eg finding curriculum), 4) I have to do high school transcripts and many college want them done by year/grade level.

If abandoned, do you suggest a replacement?

i don’t see how it causes confusion to children working subjects at individual levels unless you are emphasizing the grade level of the materials.  I never told my kids “your math is 8th grade level, your writing is 4th grade level, your science is 6th grade level, and your history is 5th grade level. Oh and you’re a fifth grader.” I just said “here’s what we are using for 5th grade.”  

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We use grade levels because my girls are in several grade segregated groups.  Even the homeschool competition team they are on competes directly with public/private school kids so a grade level is necessary.  This does't mean I only buy materials labeled with their individual grade levels.  When people ask what grades my girls are in, it is easier to say 8th than I don't believe in assigning a grade level blah blah blah.   Most people really don't care what level materials my girls are using, they just want to know how old they are.  Maybe we should convince society at large to stop asking about grade level.  

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27 minutes ago, Targhee said:

For me, I can’t fully reject the idea of grades because 1) we live in a world that uses it interchangeably with age and my kids participate in that world (sports, drama class, summer camps, etc) and my kids needed a term to relate with public school peers on, 2) we are still compared to grade norms (educational evaluation, end of year testing), 3) it can serve as a guide at times when you are unsure of what to do next in homeschooling and need a starting reference (eg finding curriculum), 4) I have to do high school transcripts and many college want them done by year/grade level.

If abandoned, do you suggest a replacement?

i don’t see how it causes confusion to children working subjects at individual levels unless you are emphasizing the grade level of the materials.  I never told my kids “your math is 8th grade level, your writing is 4th grade level, your science is 6th grade level, and your history is 5th grade level. Oh and you’re a fifth grader.” I just said “here’s what we are using for 5th grade.”  

This.  My girls have never been confused either.  They don't even pay attention to the grade level on the book, if the book even has a grade level.  There are so many options out there that can be used for a variety of grade level/ages/skill levels  

Edited by LuvToRead
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I think it makes sense because in general, there are some shared experiences at certain grade levels.  For traditionally schooled students, it can suggest whether the child is in the elementary or middle school building, likely eligible for school sports / band, taking confirmation classes, etc. etc.

It could also be that the asker is curious about the child's development.  I admit to being curious about this sometimes.  I may ask a child's age and grade to get a feel for it.  It's none of my business of course, but no harm is done.

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13 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think because the term/question "how old are you?" sounds a bit condescending compared to the question "what grade are you in?" 

I agree there is something to this.  It is more like asking an adult "what do you do" vs. their vital statistics.

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My kids were never confused by it. In 14 years of home education, I've never met a kid who was confused by it in any meaningful way. I mean, public and private schoolers also have kids working above and below grade level in various subjects. Yes, we can do it more easily and for every subject, it's a huge advantage, but it's not a baffling concept. 

I think that not using grade levels often leads to not being aware of grade level expectations. When you don't know what is routinely expected of students at a specific age/grade, it's harder to spot problems and easier to be complacent about what "working at their own pace" means. I've seen many parents talk about their children being a little behind in a certain subject or skill when they were actually very far behind. Why is that important? Learning disabilities might be identified sooner, the parent might realize that their chaotic schedule is artificially slowing down the pace, the student may realize their pace can actually be a lot faster, the student might be motivated to work through part of their typical break in order to advance.

A variation on the theme is thinking that the student is advanced for their age when they are really just using weak material/curriculum. 

There may be no reason to tell very young children that they are working ahead in ABC and behind in XYZ, but older kids need to have some awareness. It's not fair to them to be shocked when they hit 14/15 and can't handle high school work, or wind up in school and get placed with noticeably younger kids. The same goes for taking the ACT and being prepared to handle college work. Knowing roughly where they stand may or may not result in improved performance, but it removes the cruelty of unrealistic expectations. 

OP, I am in no way implying that this is the case with you. It is very possible to not use grade levels and still challenge students appropriately. I have just seen a correlation and used your post as a jumping off point for a pet peeve. 

Edited by katilac
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24 minutes ago, Targhee said:

 

i don’t see how it causes confusion to children working subjects at individual levels unless you are emphasizing the grade level of the materials.  I never told my kids “your math is 8th grade level, your writing is 4th grade level, your science is 6th grade level, and your history is 5th grade level. Oh and you’re a fifth grader.” I just said “here’s what we are using for 5th grade.”  

This is what I’ve tried failingly with my ds. I kept telling him what grade he was in, but he’s not blind and deaf, he’s figured out where he is (thank you books with grade levels printed on front and coop class schedules that identify geometry and algebra 2 as 9-10 grade) so he would respond when questioned by telling people what grade level he was working through in each major subject. It is/was a confusing question to him. He’s always taken it as a question of ability/skills. I’m trying to get through to my children that these people are only interested in your age. My kids can’t be the only ones confused by what “grade” they are in. 

Edited by SamanthaCarter
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In answer to the original question, the reason we refer to grades here is that we don't live in a bubble.  We live in a society that organizes its children according to grade level.  So, we call our children whatever grade level they are by age and then use whatever level materials that are appropriate to them as individuals.

The problem comes when kids enter school after being educated with this approach for several years.  My younger son spent two years in school, between ages 10 and 12.  In an effort to get his academics aligned with his readiness, he skipped first one then two grades.  Unfortunately, most of what makes a kid fit in with a particular grade level has nothing to do with academics, and we pulled him to homeschool after the second year.  He is now registered at the local high school as his grade-by-age level and will be taking three courses in the fall.  This compromise allows him to experience the social aspects of school, which he enjoys, and the academic flexibility of home.

ETA: Neither of my kids were ever confused about what grade they were in.

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What grade would he be in if he was at a brick and mortar school?  And what age is he?

I cannot see signature info, so if it is there it isn’t visible to me. 

If he starts answering with his level in each subject, that plus his size could itself give an adult person asking an idea of where he is in age, academically, and maturity—which may be what the question is intended for.

 

OTOH, if it is another child asking, the ability to state an age appropriate grade might be socially useful. It could keep him from sounding boastful about his algebra 2, or like he isn’t with it enough to answer his grade but instead only knows his age. 

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Honestly, I do think it is important for kids to know a grade level. Here's why: I work in a small shop with lots of teens. One is homeschooled. A customer asked her what grade she was in, and she couldn't answer that question. This customer called the owner because he was worried about the intelligence of the people she was hiring. 

I always told my kids which grade level they would be in if they were in public school. Going by age may not work. A lot of people, including me, will still make a grade assumption by the age given. So, if your son says, "I'm 9." He may still get a follow up question of, "So, 4th grade?"

Kelly

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I will tell you a funny story though.  My kids, when they were younger and we were still homeschooling, didn't always remember what grade they were in, and apparently neither did I.

We were going to a church once and I had to put the kids in their appropriate SS classes.  My middle son was 9 and in 3rd grade.  When asked what grade he was in, I promptly said, "2nd."  He looked at me and said, "Mom, aren't I in 3rd?"  I sweetly explained to the lady that we homeschooled so he just didn't know (bless his hear!)

I filled everything out, got his little card for 2nd grade and started to walk off from the sign up booth.  He meekly looked at me and said, "Mom, when can I be in 3rd grade?"  I started calculating in my head and realized he already WAS in 3rd grade!  Oops!  Back to the booth I went to explain that I was the "bless her heart" candidate!

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21 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

This is what I’ve tried failingly with my ds. I kept telling him what grade he was in, but he’s not blind and deaf, he’s figured out where he is (thank you books with grade levels printed on front and coop class schedules that identify geometry and algebra 2 as 9-10 grade) so he would respond when questioned by telling people what grade level he was working through in each major subject. It is/was a confusing question to him. He’s always taken it as a question of ability/skills. I’m trying to get through to my children that these people are only interested in your age. My kids can’t be the only ones confused by what “grade” they are in. 

 

Is he an extremely concrete thinker? Does he tend to take things very literally? 

"Why are your clothes on the bed, I told you to put them away an hour ago!"

"No, you didn't. You told me to take my clothes to my room, and they're in my room." 

"Son, you're in 5th grade." 

"You can't say that, I'm only in 5th-grade for math. I'm in 4th-grade for science, and 7th-grade for reading." 

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31 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

t I’ve tried failingly with my ds. I kept telling him what grade he was in, but he’s not blind and deaf, he’s figured out where he is (thank you books with grade levels printed on front and coop class schedules that identify geometry and algebra 2 as 9-10 grade) so he would respond when questioned by telling people what grade level he was working through in each major

 

I think working with him to understand socially appropriate answers is likely to be worthwhile. 

If he is very young and in with 9-11 graders for math, social life may be more of a struggle for him than academics, but it may be as important or more so for a happy life. 

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13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I will tell you a funny story though.  My kids, when they were younger and we were still homeschooling, didn't always remember what grade they were in, and apparently neither did I.

We were going to a church once and I had to put the kids in their appropriate SS classes.  My middle son was 9 and in 3rd grade.  When asked what grade he was in, I promptly said, "2nd."  He looked at me and said, "Mom, aren't I in 3rd?"  I sweetly explained to the lady that we homeschooled so he just didn't know (bless his hear!)

I filled everything out, got his little card for 2nd grade and started to walk off from the sign up booth.  He meekly looked at me and said, "Mom, when can I be in 3rd grade?"  I started calculating in my head and realized he already WAS in 3rd grade!  Oops!  Back to the booth I went to explain that I was the "bless her heart" candidate!

I've done that, and my kids are in b&m school.  When I signed them up for a Ninja party at their TKD dojang, I said, is it open even to 1st graders?  My kids corrected, "Mom, we're second graders."  ?

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I don't really recall my children or myself getting asked about grade level very much, so I guess I don't have a strong negative reaction to it.

I do think that *sometimes* we do need *some* way of indicating level of student working to help determine what material to use for a student. And grade level numbers are an efficient shorthand way of indicating that -- "for grade 5" (or "level 5"), rather than having to say "for students who are reading longer chapter books with comprehension and are on the cusp of being able to start discussing the books, and who can write complete sentences and are ready to begin working on paragraphs" ... (:P

And, I DO use grade level as a way of indicating to parents at the homeschool co-op what *educational level* the Literature, Writing, and workload will be for my Lit. & Comp. classes so that parents can have a feel for what to expect will happen in class, and can decide if their student can handle it, or is not ready, or is already beyond what we'll be doing. I really don't care about *age* for my classes -- if a 10th grader is working at a 7th grade reading and literary analysis level, come on in to the middle school level class. Likewise, I've had no problems letting 6th graders working at a 9th grade come on in to the high school level class.

So while I DID have a student who, esp. in the elementary grades was all over the place in his "grade level" of work in all the different subjects, such that it made it a little difficult at times to place him academically, we didn't really worry about grade levels other than to help me "right-size" the materials. For other activities, we just went by age, and had no problems.

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2 hours ago, SamanthaCarter said:

It seems silly to me that we as a group would not outright reject the idea of placing our child in a grade. I’ve been telling my kids that when a person asks what grade they are in, they need to respond by telling them thier age (that’s what they are asking anyway). I tell the kids that grades are for organizing groups of kids, and as homeschoolers and not a building full of children, we don’t have any groups. 

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 

This is a big soapbox for me, although I had my children answer with the grade they'd have been in if they were in school, and we "promoted" in the fall, even though our "school year" began January 1 and ended December 31 ("Presto change-o! You're now IN fourth grade! Go forth and prosper!") And Sunday schools and sports and other groups frequently place children by grade level instead of age, so we just made notes to ourselves about that and moved on. And the next year they are "promoted" to the next "grade," and ditto the following year, and the year after that.

I also don't believe that there has to be 12 years of "school," with four years of "high school."

It goes along with the word we use for our children: students.

My children are not "students." They are my children. They didn't "start first grade." They are not "rising fifth graders." They don't "repeat a grade." They were definitely not "red-shirted."

However, people--including homeschoolers--don't understand how "grade level" works, anyway. A child who is "in first grade" might be doing third grade arithmetic and seventh grade reading and second grade spelling; he's still "in first grade," because he was six by the cut-off date.

In case any of y'all don't know, my mentor was John Holt, the first unschooler. :-)

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14 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I think working with him to understand socially appropriate answers is likely to be worthwhile. 

If he is very young and in with 9-11 graders for math, social life may be more of a struggle for him than academics, but it may be as important or more so for a happy life. 

Everyday. 

But along the same vein, my youngest, who has pretty decent social skills, is also confused. She will be 7 in October and last year I had her in a kindergarten class. She was not happy because it felt like preschool/nursery school.  I moved her up to first and it was a perfect fit. She’s working through second grade math right now. She should be 1st grade by age. Even *I* am unsure what to call her, because of her awkward cutoff and her demonstrated ability to do the work. 

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51 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

This is what I’ve tried failingly with my ds. I kept telling him what grade he was in, but he’s not blind and deaf, he’s figured out where he is (thank you books with grade levels printed on front and coop class schedules that identify geometry and algebra 2 as 9-10 grade) so he would respond when questioned by telling people what grade level he was working through in each major subject. It is/was a confusing question to him. He’s always taken it as a question of ability/skills. I’m trying to get through to my children that these people are only interested in your age. My kids can’t be the only ones confused by what “grade” they are in. 

We actually did have to have a little talk with all the kids when my oldest started to do something similar. I overheard her once, and just pulled them together to explain right then and there. But all it took was saying that we have freedom as Homeschoolers to work where you are, and people are really meaning to ask what age group you are in. End of story. 

Mind if you have a gifted child you will likely have to have other talks, not about grade level but about how we are all different and some of us have more extreme differences, asynchronous development, how to relate to peers that aren’t age mates, etc.  This is true of gifted kids in just about any situation - you will have to be more deliberate about helping them deal with differences so those difference don’t lead to isolation, anger, apathy, arrogance, or other states of poor emotional and mental being. And that is something they would have to deal with even without grade levels, because most people tend to include in their play a narrow band of age peers (eg most 10 year olds don’t play with 2 year olds and most 11 year olds are unwelcome to hang out with 18 year olds for social/development reasons).

 

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We don't do grade levels in our homeschool so much.  But when my kids were small, I taught them to say "If I were in public school I would be in _______ grade."  (This satisfied my very literal Aspie).  We also didn't do the whole homeschool co-op thing and our Sunday school is small and multi-grade so it was simply a thing that neighbors asked and didn't affect the rest of our life. 

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51 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

This is what I’ve tried failingly with my ds. I kept telling him what grade he was in, but he’s not blind and deaf, he’s figured out where he is (thank you books with grade levels printed on front and coop class schedules that identify geometry and algebra 2 as 9-10 grade) so he would respond when questioned by telling people what grade level he was working through in each major subject. It is/was a confusing question to him. He’s always taken it as a question of ability/skills. I’m trying to get through to my children that these people are only interested in your age. My kids can’t be the only ones confused by what “grade” they are in. 


Perhaps explain that "grade" level has to do with the fact that the educational system in the US is set up as a 12-year progression. DS still has 6 years to go to complete the progression ("12th grade"), which means he is currently in "6th grade" (the 6th year of the 12-year progression).

But honestly, it doesn't sound like it's that big of a deal if your DS tells people the grade level of his work for each subject, rather than a single overall grade level. I would imagine that most of the time, that question is just a conversation-starter, and that's great that your DS is aware and articulate to share that level of detail in conversation! (:D

If the grade-level is needed for signing him up for something, I would imagine that you are the one doing the sign up and you can state the overall grade level, and no trouble there.

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1 minute ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Everyday. 

But along the same vein, my youngest, who has pretty decent social skills, is also confused. She is 7 in October and last year I had her in a kindergarten class. She was not happy because it felt like preschool/nursery school.  I moved her up to first and it was a perfect fit. She’s working through second grade math right now. She should be 1st grade by age. Even *I* am unsure what to call her, because of her awkward cutoff and her demonstrated ability to do the work. 

If she is doing 2nd or higher work across the board, I would call her 2nd grade.  Her age is so close to the cutoff.  I would not stray too far from the conventional age-grade though.

My eldest is also an October birthday and she gets frustrated socially when she is in age-based classes.  She often expresses a desire for more challenge / more interesting activities.  She is not academically brilliant, in fact is behind in a couple areas, but I still think she is correctly placed a little ahead of age for social reasons.

It does get complicated when a fair % of other kids are redshirted.  When my kids entered 1st, the age range from oldest to youngest was about 20 months.

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I live in a very small town where there is one school district - one elementary building, one combined middle/high school. Everyone knows everyone else. So, when they ask my kids what grade they are in, they are looking to ask them if they know so-and-so (usually a grandchild, niece/nephew) who is also in that grade. They could care less how old my kid is.

I remember when my ds#2 was in gymnastics for 1st graders & up. One of the girls asked him what grade he was in. He said Kindergarten. (He was in first at the time or he couldn't have been in that group of kids.) Less than a month later, a different girl asked him what grade he would be going into "next year". He said 3rd because he'd just started "Math 2" book and figured he'd be in the next number up by next year. I had to explain that she really meant "in the fall" - so, 2nd grade. In their case, they were wondering if he would have been in their grade/class.

Eldest, poor child, was the victim of my uncertainty on grades vs. age. She'd almost always have to ask me if I signed her up for the grade level she'd be per her public school age (and homeschool paperwork) or the next higher one (the one I had decided she was in based on when she started kindergarten work). Now, however, she's still a victim of grade confusion as at least three families we know think she already graduated. Apparently, she's a genius & graduated high school at 16 and her awful mom is making her take a gap year for some unknown but very controlling reason. :ph34r: (It is very uncommon/unheard-of around here to take classes at the state college nearby while in high school. She took one this past spring, so she must have been a senior then, right? Or, maybe she graduated at 15! Yeah, that's it.) She knows her Official Grade now (and, honestly, for the last two years she's been pretty solid on it since I decided we'd keep her in the grade I assigned waaaay back when). Good thing, too, since she's applying to colleges this fall and has to answer the "when are you graduating" question on lots of applications. :cool:

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Really I think it's convenience.  It's a shorthand that is understood in the wider culture, which most of us are still interacting with.  It might be Sunday school class, or re-entering the school system.

I also find it gives me a place to start when I'm looking at curricula.  I know my dc is working at a particular level, I start there to look, I might have to go up or down a bit, but it's good guide.

I don't think grade level like we use is the only way we could do this - I use some programs that go by form, which has an age range.  I tend to think that's a better method as it's a little more flexible, but I think we'd have a way to describe working levels anyway.

 

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45 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Everyday. 

But along the same vein, my youngest, who has pretty decent social skills, is also confused. She will be 7 in October and last year I had her in a kindergarten class. She was not happy because it felt like preschool/nursery school.  I moved her up to first and it was a perfect fit. She’s working through second grade math right now. She should be 1st grade by age. Even *I* am unsure what to call her, because of her awkward cutoff and her demonstrated ability to do the work. 

This my DD. She'll also be 7 in October, but works at a 2nd grade level in most subjects.

I think the key here is looking about academic maturity and social maturity. If BOTH are above age/grade level, then I say call her 2nd grade. I have done that for my daughter, and with the more social groups we're in, she fits in perfectly with the 2nd graders.

I also have two SILs who are public school teachers. They've affirmed my "official" bump of DD to "2nd grade". Though, that affirmation was purely for my own confidence and certainly not a requirement. It's just nice to know I wasn't being a "my kid is so much more mature than everyone else" sort of parent.

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18 minutes ago, carriede said:

This my DD. She'll also be 7 in October, but works at a 2nd grade level in most subjects.

I think the key here is looking about academic maturity and social maturity. If BOTH are above age/grade level, then I say call her 2nd grade. I have done that for my daughter, and with the more social groups we're in, she fits in perfectly with the 2nd graders.

I also have two SILs who are public school teachers. They've affirmed my "official" bump of DD to "2nd grade". Though, that affirmation was purely for my own confidence and certainly not a requirement. It's just nice to know I wasn't being a "my kid is so much more mature than everyone else" sort of parent.

 

My daughter turns 7 today and is completely ready for 2nd grade this year. I don't imagine being born 3 weeks later (or even 6 into October) would have changed that significantly. In fact I was a September 4 baby that got bumped up to 1st grade the year i should have been a Kindergartener and it never hurt me.

 

(OTOH after K, they wanted to test my son to bump to 2nd instead of 1st and we rejected it because socially he was not ready and skipping  a year was not going to help that one bit. One reason I've always looked for ways to homeschool is his academics and maturity are so disparate.)

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3 hours ago, SamanthaCarter said:

It seems silly to me that we as a group would not outright reject the idea of placing our child in a grade. I’ve been telling my kids that when a person asks what grade they are in, they need to respond by telling them thier age (that’s what they are asking anyway). 

Why does this idea have such staying-power with homeschoolers? I causes so much confusion to kids who are working each subject at thier own pace! 

 

There are outside activities that is more concerned about grade level than age. DS13 would not be able to take the AMC8 (math competition) this year because he would be in 9th grade. His birthday is just before the old Dec 2nd cutoff for California.  There are however many activities that he qualified to participate in last year (2017/2018) as an 8th grader even though he has not turned 13.

The art and music center my kids go to group students for classes by grade level and not age which is why we had DS12 who missed the Dec 2nd cutoff by a few days bumped up a grade while in public school. They had a group music theory class that is for 5th to 8th graders only and they do track in their system so I had to inform them of the grade skip since DS12 took lessons there before the grade skip. Each kid has a student account number there so they can track prerequisites as well.

Also my kids have been taking SAT, ACT and AP exams in middle school. They need to color that not yet in high school bubble. 

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1 hour ago, Lori D. said:


Perhaps explain that "grade" level has to do with the fact that the educational system in the US is set up as a 12-year progression. DS still has 6 years to go to complete the progression ("12th grade"), which means he is currently in "6th grade" (the 6th year of the 12-year progression).

But honestly, it doesn't sound like it's that big of a deal if your DS tells people the grade level of his work for each subject, rather than a single overall grade level.  .

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I agree with the 12-year progression explanation. Many countries do use the term "year" instead, and it makes more sense, but I think we're stuck doing the best we can with the term "grade." Sometimes you adjust up or down, no big deal.

Personally, I would discourage answering with grade levels for every subject. Most people don't care that  much, lol, and his peers are going to think it's a weird or braggy answer.  

1 hour ago, SamanthaCarter said:

But along the same vein, my youngest, who has pretty decent social skills, is also confused. She will be 7 in October and last year I had her in a kindergarten class. She was not happy because it felt like preschool/nursery school.  I moved her up to first and it was a perfect fit. She’s working through second grade math right now. She should be 1st grade by age. Even *I* am unsure what to call her, because of her awkward cutoff and her demonstrated ability to do the work. 

2

 

I think you answered your own question. We assign a grade, to some extent arbitrarily, because it's more confusing not to do so. A co-op may allow a second-grader in a third-grade class, but they're still a second grader (if you use grade levels).  I've actually not found very many co-ops that divide by individual grade; most are small enough that it's at least two grade levels per class and often three or more. Either way, It's easy enough to explain: dd, the class is labeled as third grade because it's a good fit for most third-graders, but some of the kids will be in second and some will be in fourth. 

It's not any different from a second-grader public school going to third-grade math. It's fairly common to do pullouts for specific subjects without doing a complete grade skip. 

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Explain it like this:

We've done formal schooling for x years. (I never count Kindy because to me that's just mostly play) So first graders are in their first year of formal schooling. Second graders in their second year, etc. regardless of what level of materials they are using.

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1 hour ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Everyday. 

But along the same vein, my youngest, who has pretty decent social skills, is also confused. She will be 7 in October and last year I had her in a kindergarten class. She was not happy because it felt like preschool/nursery school.  I moved her up to first and it was a perfect fit. She’s working through second grade math right now. She should be 1st grade by age. Even *I* am unsure what to call her, because of her awkward cutoff and her demonstrated ability to do the work. 

 

Within what our state allows for grade placement (homeschoolers have a grade which determines things like standardized tests required), I would call grade by best social placement level.  Hence if she were my Ds, and if 1st was a good fit last year, socially as well as academically, I would call her second for this next year.   

Turning 7 in October of 2nd grade sounds like a relatively reasonable placement. In my state a 2nd grader can easily range from as young as 6 to as old as 8 at the start of 2nd grade, though a majority are 7.  Older than 8 in second is not allowed and younger than 6 is strongly discouraged.

I was 6 at the start of 2nd, but not with a fall birthday and feel it was too young for social reasons as toward the end of the year I was still 6 while others were 7 or 8.  They were bigger, more advanced physically and in playground activities, more emotionally mature, etc.  I was still ahead of others in my class academically, so it was not a useful placement in either aspect.  If there had been some more younger kids, or if I was big for my age, or socially mature for my age, that might have been different.  

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Well, I am actually tired of the opposite - every homeschool parent I meet tells me how it's so great that homeschoolers don't go by "grades" and how their child is doing college level math, and it's perfectly OK that they can't read yet at 10 bc they are going to be a Marine Biology prodigy any second now.

Who cares????    My kid is 10 and he thinks he is going to be in 5th grade.  I don't go around telling people that he was auditing Astronomy class at Cal Tech (with lots of help from my husband) this past spring. 

There was a poll in one of my homeschooling FB groups - lady just wanted to get an idea of age range for the kids and for some reason she did it by grades, but putting 5th grade as "middle school".  I asked a simple questions to clarify it and was given lectures by 5 different people on how homeschooling is not about grades and how I should relax my standards and blah blah blah.  I just rolled my eyes....

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We just had a conversation in the car about this with the girls. August 1st is our "official" first day of school, so that's when I "promoted" them. On the way to the store, I informed them that they are now in 4th, 2nd, and 1st grade. They were unimpressed. But dh thanked me. Apparently he gets asked that at work a lot and can never figure it out. ☺️

It's a social question, we're not going to change anyone. I don't make choices based on it, I go according to ability level. I do their state-mandated standardized testing based on grade level. But that's basically it. 

Mostly I find it helpful to remember that homeschoolers are not homogenous and have different reasons for homeschooling. Many may find grade level to be important for their family, even if I don't, so no reason to judge. 

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This is why I really love to read the book Understood Betsy with my kids.  She goes from a school with lots of classrooms to a single room schoolhouse, and gets confused because she is told to work at whatever level she needs to for subjects. 

All the city rec stuff here is by grade, and by giving my kid a shorthand way of connecting with other kids it's easier on him.  I don't dwell much on what grade he is but all the things we turn in for homeschooling I say "second year" rather than second grade or whatever grade he currently is.

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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

This is why I really love to read the book Understood Betsy with my kids.  She goes from a school with lots of classrooms to a single room schoolhouse, and gets confused because she is told to work at whatever level she needs to for subjects.

YES! I forgot to mention that. ❤️

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I haven't read every response.  I truly think of grade level as an age designation.  My son went to school for 2 years.  There were kids nailing down the alphabet and basic phonics in his first grad class through kid who were fluently reading Harry Potter.  I don't disagree many classrooms aren't set up well to deal with kids at a very wide variety of levels, but there is always a variety of levels including possibly kids that may do better in some other educational setting but may never see that opportunity.  I do think schooling should be much more modular and student driven and that students should be given a fair and appropriate education for 13 years.   As homeschoolers, my kids have always been ahead, wildly so in some areas.  The schooled first grader reading Harry Potter still says they're a first grader.  

I would also say as a parent of a rising senior who tested as PG in early elementary and as a contract teacher who has worked with many groups of GT kids, I see what problems this causes in the homeschool world or at least our secular homeschool community in a large urban area.  Many times parents of academically precocious kids assume every other kid in a setting is average at best and request their kids get bumped up.  Well, often those older kids are precocious for age too.  Suppose your precocious 10 year old was in a  classroom setting with a bunch of precocious 9-11 year old peers and having a great time.  Then a parent says they have an super precocious 6 year old and that kid gets dropped in your class.  Guess what? The whole dynamic of the class just changed.   I have actually seen this happen.  And the parent of the 6 year old often doesn't see it.  They see their kid having a great time.  Where in reality the teacher is now working harder to make the class appropriate for every child in the room and the kids are being polite but are just tolerating the younger kid and aren't engaging with him socially the way they do with each other.  Your kid's best peer group will academic peers in their own age range.  This even becomes more pronounced with kids who've gone through puberty and throwing much younger kids in with them.  Heck, my 17 year old feels on the outskirts of any social circles doing dual enrollment at a community college now.  Which is fine for what he's doing.  But I'm glad he will not be launching to a full on college 24-7 dorm experience before he is 18.

Many academically precocious kids are asynchronous.  I live with 2 of them so I can safely say that.   My oldest had test scores for college in the 7th/8th grade but he would have dominated a much group class with his blah blah blah and energy.   Unless you're leading lots of different groups of kids you might not see the sublties.  This is the beauty of homeschooling.  You don't NEED to do a group class for anything if you don't want.  In the last couple years, our teen co-op has started taking a hard line on ages.  Most of the teachers are teaching in an open ended way and the advanced kids are doing college level work easily starting at 12 or 13 and also adapt for kids at a variety of levels.   When the age range is already 12-16, adding younger kids is a whole other dynamic.  

As I am getting ready to work on college applications with the PG kid at 17, I have to say I could have and many people urged me to skip grade levels with him when he was younger.   Puberty was rough for him, executive function was slower to kick in (my daughter is way ahead in that area), and he had no interest in adulting early.  I always suggest to parents to teach kids at their level.  Don't decide to graduate (or think of it as not parenting and launching) them early before puberty.  Let them ask to do it or talk to them about it at 12-14 and see how they feel about it.  There are always ways to teach them at their level and go wider and deeper.  My kid has thoroughly enjoyed his high school years.  He is still kind of an awkward kid but his social skills have come a long way and he has a great group of quirky, intellectual kids.  I know that's not possible and doable for every kid and living in an urban area helps with outlets but I know 2 very bright school IDed GT young men near my son's age right now who were pushed ahead and were not successful transitioning to college due to EF/maturity issues.

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Grades make sense in our social system. It makes sense when someone says, “my daughter is a college junior; my son is a college freshman.” 

When I was young, I went to a multi-age private school that really had no reference to grades (except letter grades A, B, C, etc.) I was always confused when people would ask me what grade I was in because I thought that meant how well do I do in school. I worked on disparate grade-level workbooks. But it would have been much simpler if my parents had just used grade vernacular because that is the system others understand. 

It’s like anything else we categorize: what religion do you follow, if any? What political party do you favor? Are you more a city gal or a country gal? What kind of movies do you like? Of course there may be nuance to the actual answers; it is probably true more often than not. But for simple categorization, most people will just say, “I’m Catholic,” or, “I’m a Republican,” or, “country girl all the way.” 

I always taught my kids how to respind to the “what grade are you in” question and I have never related it in any way to what grade-level work they were doing. Fortunately, even when we have had curriculum that is grade-leveled, it is generally somewhat subtle. It will just say, “English 6” or whatever. I have also switched around grade levels when it has suited my purposes, so last year, with my son in 7th grade, he had a social studies program that was meant for 8th grade (that dreaded Starline Press with it’s idiotic book 3 I had discussed here). This year, he is doing a 7th grade curriculum (Notgrass). The actual grade number means very little to me. 

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Grade level used to be determined by ability, but now it's determined by birthdate.  It's how the masses make conversation and sort children. I don't think it's that confusing for homeschooled kids if they're simply told. "In most schools grade level is decided by age.  K for 5 year olds, 1st for 6 year olds.....

What I'm finding in my local area is a high number of refugees from the public schools in the homeschooling community with no concept at all that grade levels aren't uniform in content or from curriculum to curriculum or one educational philosophy to another, and that homeschooled kids can work at different levels.  Most of them are just looking for online classes, so they haven't really bothered looking into homeschooling.  It's like talking to aliens from another planet sometimes.

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When my kid were young, they would look at me when someone asked what grade they were in.  So, I started telling them how to answer.  "If someone asks what grade you're in,  you are in 4th grade this year."  We didn't buy much curriculum that had grade levels on it, I don't think, so it didn't matter.  They knew what they were "good" at, and what they struggled with, but we didn't put anything in terms of being below or above their grade level.  Well, in high school we did, because of graduation requirements and algebra.  :-)

I always found it funny/odd when homeschool moms would be sure to qualify their kids' exact level:  "he's in 4th grade this year but doing 7th grade math and reading at a 9th grade level." Funny how no one ever said "he's in 4th grade this year but doing 3rd grade math and reading at a 2nd grade level."  So of course the kids would respond that way, taking their mother's cue.  

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9 minutes ago, marbel said:

I always found it funny/odd when homeschool moms would be sure to qualify their kids' exact level:  "he's in 4th grade this year but doing 7th grade math and reading at a 9th grade level." Funny how no one ever said "he's in 4th grade this year but doing 3rd grade math and reading at a 2nd grade level."  So of course the kids would respond that way, taking their mother's cue.  

 

Yeah, that just seems so overly complicated.

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