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MistyMountain

Barton not working

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I used Barton with my rising 2nd grader last year and it has been slow going. She can't even pass the test to move past level 3. I feel like the past year was a waste and that she needs more review of previously learned skills then Barton offers but not quite as much time with each separate skill. Has anyone left Barton and found success with something else?

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An acquaintance of mine left Barton for Slingerland, and has strong opinions about it based on her experience. My experience is with The Writing and Spelling Road to Reading and Thinking (similar to Spalding), All About Reading/All About Spelling, and The Logic of English. Did you use any other multi-sensory curriculum before Barton? How often did you do lessons over the course of the year? Is your daughter writing/spelling as part of her reading instruction? Does she have automaticity of isolated letter sounds from Level 2 (can say sound(s) when shown sh, a, etc., and can write sh, a, etc. when told sound(s))? What skills has she gained over the course of the year? At what points do you see her getting stuck in Level 3? When you said you think your daughter needs more review of previously learned skills, do you mean skills from Level 1 and 2, or more practice in Level 3 that is not provided?  

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Do you have LiPS or something at that level?  You're not going to make much progress with even a good OG program if the phonemic awareness skills are not solid.

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She did pass the screening the second time she took it before starting Barton and she did pass level 1 and 2 and has that stuff down and letter automaticity. A lesson typically took 1 or 2 weeks to get through working 5 days a week. She did do the writing and spelling that was part of the lessons. She is mostly having a hard time with a few lessons in 3 but since she does the lesson but then does not see it for a while she does not pass it when it comes back in the posttest at the end. She used to struggle a bit with phonemic awareness when she was younger but she is much better with that now. Fluency is a bigger struggle now but getting 95% accuracy has been hard too. She did a year of Spalding in kindergarten. She was doing some Lexia before the summer and that seemed to help her more then Barton and gave her a measurable Lexile score for the first time. I focused just on Barton for the summer and she still has not been able to pass out of level 3. 

Edited by MistyMountain

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How is her spoken vocabulary? Is there any chance that she might have auditory processing issues? If that is the case I would consider doing fast forword for 3-4 months. You can pm me . My son did not have dyslexia he had auditory processing but FF significantly improved his reading. It fills in much of the same area as LIPS but not all of it.  his listening and his general attention. Its something to do with how the brain links the sound to letters and speach. Once the brain was improved at processing the sound everything improved. I was skeptical but the testing made a believer out of me. 

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We did not use Barton in the first place. We used a program called High Noon, and I think I posted more about it on the thread called Dyselxia that still is easy to find. 

The Sound Out Chapter books of HN give a lot of review, but the order and method of presentation of skills are not the same as for Barton. 

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Maybe Abecedarian?  They have a bunch of free resources and good samples so you could see if it might be a good fit. You can order the books from amazon.  

Free Abecedarian resources:

http://www.abcdrp.com/download-samples-1/

I would start with their blending/segmenting supplement and make sure she can do that.  

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57891644bebafbbe871a567f/t/57aa43049f7456bea43bbba0/1470776073570/ABCD_WABS_03.pdf

They have fluency practice with charts to help you track your progress:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57891644bebafbbe871a567f/t/57a4ff2bbe6594d7641ef770/1470431021046/ABCD_100_words_Level_A.pdf

You could also try my Syllables program and see if it clicks yet, sometimes it and Webster work better once there is more of a phonemic awareness foundation.

But, even if the phonemic awareness foundation is better, there might still be some small issues that will allow more progress if addressed, you might need to do some more things to strengthen it before you can move on.  LiPS is very powerful!

Also, try my 25 nonsense words timed at 36 point font and then 12 point font and see if there is a speed and accuracy difference, that could mean some kind of underlying vision problem and you may need to work in 36 point font while fixing it.

You can use link #6, extra version of the teacher folder on my syllable page to get a good list of nonsense words.  If she needs simpler words, use one set from the original and one set from the version two, use the same type of nonsense word, 1 and 1a are different, they need to match exactly.

https://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

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Here is a quick phonemic awareness screening that is free to use:

https://www.spelfabet.com.au/2013/02/free-phonological-awareness-test/

http://courses.washington.edu/sop/Test of Auditory Analysis Skills.pdf

Also, I time the speed and accuracy of the following to see if my students might need more phonemic awareness with something like LiPS, you should not read the last groups more than a  second slower than the first few groups of each section, and accuracy should not be different.

1. 2 sounds, short vowel  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

am  in  up  at  it 

 

if  on  add  off  an

 

2. 3 sounds, short vowel  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

sit  ram  fin  cup  sat 

 

rat  fog  sad  hot  mutt

 

3. Several sounds, short vowel  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

blink  clasp  fresh  drab  plush 

 

thrush  strict  snatch  stretch  brunch

 

3a. Several sounds, short vowel  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

splash  stretch  sprint  shrub  thrift

 

sphinx  clash   splint  strength  thresh

 

 

 

4. 2 sounds, syllables long vowels  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

be  pi  ty  re  go 

 

te  ti  to  hy  ra

 

 

 

 

5. 2 sounds, words, long vowels  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

oat  me  eel  day  see

 

high  sea  go  roe  say

 

6. 3 sounds, long vowels, letter teams  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

moat  feel  rain  need  light

 

deep  mail  goat  wait  seen

 

7. 3 sounds, long vowels silent e  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

Pete  mope  late  mite  hope

 

mane  gate  hide  home  wade

 

 

 

 

 

8. 4 sounds, long vowels, letter teams  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

braid  steel  blown  drain  fright 

 

sloan  blight  plain  bright  drain

 

 

9. 4 sounds, long vowels silent e  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

slope  grape  snake  drone  swipe

 

broke  flame  prone  flake  drape

 

 

10. 5 sounds, long vowels letter teams  Time:_________________  # correct:___________________

 

strain  street   screen  straight  spray

 

spleen  strait  scream  stroke  phrase

 

 

Edited by ElizabethB

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Her spoken vocabulary is good but her articulation is a little poor. It has never been enough to qualify her for speech through the school yet but we are retesting in the fall.

She passed the spelfabet screening. She missed number 7 game but not two in a row which is good according to that. I am not sure the font numbers but I timed the 25 nonsense words as is and she had very poor accuracy and it took 2 minutes 19 seconds. I magnified it as much as I could and still have it fit the screen and she got 1 minute 22 seconds with much better accuracy. She does have vision issues with convergence and tracking. She really has issues with the directionality of letters. She did really bad on that part of the vision evaluation. We were working on retained reflexes before vision therapy. I did not time her on the other words you included because in Barton she did not even cover all that yet. She may know some from Lexia but not all.

Edited by MistyMountain

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Will your insurance cover private speech? 

High Noon that Penny suggested has books to build fluency at whatever level she's at. You can get them at a level where they'll be decodable based on where she is in Barton. 

The other issue is that if she was sorta skin of her teeth passing the Barton pre-test, maybe she has some foundational issues. It's not that you can't go forward, but sometimes when the brain isn't ready it just files the info somewhere else. Then you're like why isn't this clicking, why isn't it pulling together, and it's because it's filing the work under bird calls or something else in the brain, rather than connecting it as reading and language and meaning. These are actual connections that get made. I also wouldn't *assume* language does not need work. I would fight to get run the TNL (Test of Narrative Language) and anything else detailed you can. 

Just on a lark (I'm not saying you'll find anything) what you could do is go through a therapy materials site like Linguisystems, see what they have that looks like it might be useful to her (because your mother gut is strong and you'll know) and that can give you info. Like just kinda look through everything, kwim? Like on the Spotlight series, which has books for listening comprehension, vocabulary, etc. etc., look through the samples and see where she would break down or find them challenging. That will tell you stuff more quickly than waiting around for testing the ps may or may not get run. I personally am not a fan of the CELF, and that's what they run a lot. Sometimes they run the TILLS, and it can tell you a bit more.

Has she had a full psych eval to know if there's more going on? And an APD screening?

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Our private insurance does not cover speech. She has not had a full evaluation run by a neuropsychologist but it is too expensive here to be an option for us. She had testing through the school and has an IEP but the tests they chose to use were pretty useless and the teacher who works with her and administered it said he did not even feel the results were reflective of her. She did well on the CELF and does fine wth narrating. She never did the TNL. Can a speech therapist do that one and is it a common one they run? I do not feel in my gut that language is the issue though. 

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1 hour ago, MistyMountain said:

Her spoken vocabulary is good but her articulation is a little poor. It has never been enough to qualify her for speech through the school yet but we are retesting in the fall.

She passed the spelfabet screening. She missed number 7 game but not two in a row which is good according to that. I am not sure the font numbers but I timed the 25 nonsense words as is and she had very poor accuracy and it took 2 minutes 19 seconds. I magnified it as much as I could and still have it fit the screen and she got 1 minute 22 seconds with much better accuracy. She does have vision issues but we were working on retained reflexes before vision therapy. I did not time her on the other words you included because in Barton she did not even cover all that yet. She may know some from Lexia but not all.

That is a huge difference.  I would do a lot of oral things and everything at 28 - 36 point font until her vision is fixed.  Work on oral blending, phonograms, spelling rules like oi/oy ai/ay, native english words don't end in i so the i changes to a y. 

I can send you a PDF of the syllables program at 28 point font if you want, PM me an e-mail address.

If you can't see the letters clearly you won't make much progress. If you can't hear or separate or manipulate the sounds clearly and easily, you won't make much progress until that is fixed.  I would test her on the highest level of words she knows vs. the easiest and see if there is a difference.  For example 1 vs. 3 or 1 vs. 3a.  Then compare 4 vs. the highest level after that.  For 4, if she's not that familiar  with syllables, you can change  "be  pi  ty  re  go  te  ti  to  hy  ra"

to

"so  me  pi  by  we  go  he  my  no  hi"

Abecedarian is a fairly large font, I think.  I just looked at samples, I don't actually own the program.

LiPS is easy to use on your own, it is very scripted and people here can help with questions if there is any sort of underlying phonemic awareness, even if it is small, progress is so much faster after you fix the underlying issues.

 

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My son had private speech for the same reason. He also had vision therapy. I know someone who would let you do a demo privately of Fast Forword to see if it would help her without having to go through the main website which is pretty useless. It was still around $1200 ( for a year  )and took us 4 months for the first set and 3 months for the 2nd set.  We demo'ed FF with my son for a week before I took the plunge and decided it was worth the investment ( I still felt like it was like going by faith there). We did it every morning before school for 30 minutes.  After 4 months of fast forword my son went up 3 standard deviation on almost every part of the CAPD testing and is now in the normal range.  The speech therapist we were working with ( who did not know about FF) said that my son progressed faster than any patient he had worked with. The school teacher ( who also didn't know about FF) said his verbal and written expression improved dramatically. He was a good reader but took off after that program ( he went up over 450 lexile ).  The only area I am not sure it did work was with the dysgraphia but well I didn't expect it to do that. 

Would your insurance cover testing with an audiologist for CAPD and could you throw a fit and get more testing to get her some speech in school? BTW some schools provide Fast Forword through the special Ed department. My son didn't qualify for anything but sitting on the front row in school so we did it all on our own. 

I only write about this because my husband was sitting with my son one day watching him do FF and he said . " I wish we had done this when he was 4 or 5". Even as an outsider he could see that it was targeting the sound awareness and auditory processing.  I wish it were less expansive and I wish they would provide it for any Kindergartner or 1st grader who even slightly would benefit. It wouldn't hurt any child to go through the computer program they would just do it wickedly quick but the kiddos who needed it would really benefit. 

 

It would absolutely not replace Barton or speech therapy but it helped my son calibrate his brain to sound and after he did that he took off with the other teaching methods that before had failed. Also he had incredibly poor auditory memory so much so that I was sure he would never get through the  2nd level of FF but now he has memorized song lyrics and sings them. He also can play simon the sound game ( truly he could not do that at all)  He could not do the auditory memory level of hearbuilder but now has just finished it as well. 

WE are now doing Interactive Metronome and another program called Soundstorm but even those programs are going better. Its like it taught him how to key into the listening/reading/expressive language part of his brain. 

Edited by exercise_guru

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3 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

That is a huge difference.  I would do a lot of oral things and everything at 28 - 36 point font until her vision is fixed.  Work on oral blending, phonograms, spelling rules like oi/oy ai/ay, native english words don't end in i so the i changes to a y. 

I can send you a PDF of the syllables program at 28 point font if you want, PM me an e-mail address.

If you can't see the letters clearly you won't make much progress. If you can't hear or separate or manipulate the sounds clearly and easily, you won't make much progress until that is fixed.  I would test her on the highest level of words she knows vs. the easiest and see if there is a difference.  For example 1 vs. 3 or 1 vs. 3a.  Then compare 4 vs. the highest level after that.  For 4, if she's not that familiar  with syllables, you can change  "be  pi  ty  re  go  te  ti  to  hy  ra"

to

"so  me  pi  by  we  go  he  my  no  hi"

Abecedarian is a fairly large font, I think.  I just looked at samples, I don't actually own the program.

LiPS is easy to use on your own, it is very scripted and people here can help with questions if there is any sort of underlying phonemic awareness, even if it is small, progress is so much faster after you fix the underlying issues.

 

 

I only tested speed to 3a because the other categories she has not done in Barton. She did have a slowdown for each one from 15 seconds for 1 to 45 seconds in 3a. Each one was a little slower. She was not capable of the word Sphinx because she has not done ph yet and she cannot even make the sf sound and for some reason she has trouble with the t sound at the end in that section too. She can hear sounds and delete and add them and like I said she passed the phonemic awareness screening with a higher score then a 2nd grader needed. 

I can ask if the charter would be able to pay for fast forward or if they even heard of it. She is going to get tested for speech again and the school I am going through is better to deal with if they are on the border line. 

I was reading the other dyslexia thread about retained reflexes. She definitely has those plus issues with motor planning and integrated movements. We were doing the rhythmic exercises and duck and pigeon daily for a while to no avail but the Pyramid of Potential videos sound like something I can try.

Edited by MistyMountain
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5 hours ago, MistyMountain said:

 

I only tested speed to 3a because the other categories she has not done in Barton. She did have a slowdown for each one from 15 seconds for 1 to 45 seconds in 3a. Each one was a little slower. She was not capable of the word Sphinx because she has not done ph yet and she cannot even make the sf sound and for some reason she has trouble with the t sound at the end in that section too. She can hear sounds and delete and add them and like I said she passed the phonemic awareness screening with a higher score then a 2nd grader needed. 

I can ask if the charter would be able to pay for fast forward or if they even heard of it. She is going to get tested for speech again and the school I am going through is better to deal with if they are on the border line. 

I was reading the other dyslexia thread about retained reflexes. She definitely has those plus issues with motor planning and integrated movements. We were doing the rhythmic exercises and duck and pigeon daily for a while to no avail but the Pyramid of Potential videos sound like something I can try.

That is a huge slowdown and is indicative of other students I've had who had a specific phonemic awareness problem with the consonant blends.  You need to do something like LiPS or have a speech therapist do something like LiPS to work on consonant blends.  A few weeks of work on that should make a big difference in reading speed and fluency with blends.  Vowels are a more open sound and are easier to blend and segment with consonants.  When you start blending consonants together, you have to delete part of the phoneme and they sound different depending on what consonant they are blending with.  

My sound charts are in sound order, work on looking at how they are arranged, Don Potter has a video explaining it.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf

(He uses the phonovisual charts, they are very similar, both based on a chart in the public domain from late 1800's or early 1900's.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEy9D4sBEok&list=PLJLxBWdK_5l3aBN-qowg2u8BdGYM64pTi&index=3

So, you really slowly work on what the lips and mouth and throat are doing for each sound and what happens when you blend them together, then compare that to another blend.  For example, -ast vs. -aft or -and vs. -ant or -eld vs. -elm. 

You can use the reading chains in the Abecedarian blending/segmenting supplement I linked earlier for ideas, the consonant blend ones later on in the PDF, although you could start with CVC words to build up confidence and familiarity with the process.

You should get the app Sounds of Speech by University of Iowa and watch the side videos of the sounds you are working on.  You might also be able to view the sounds being made on their website, depending on your computer and what version of software you have.  http://soundsofspeech.uiowa.edu/index.html#english

Here are free mouth pictures, make 2 sets, one with letters and one without. Cut out the letters or fold over to make the set without letters. First, work on blending with mouth pictures without letters of /a/ /f/ /t/ vs. /a/ /s/ /t/, then the mouth pictures with letters.  

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Speech-Sound-Cue-Cards-Freebie-2196455

There is also a step where you use different colored squares to represent each sound and blend them.

LiPS has explicit instructions about how to do all this, the manual is still $45.  You also learn what sounds are in different groups of like type by how they are made and where they are made in the mouth and throat.

https://www.amazon.com/Lindamood-Phoneme-Sequencing-Program-Spelling/dp/0890797536/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533282727&sr=8-1&keywords=lindamood

 

Edited by ElizabethB

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So, she has a lot going on!  Vision, retained reflexes, motor planning, phonemic awareness with blends.  That is a lot to work on!!

The good news is that when all these are fixed, her progress should be much faster!  There might be some motor planning going into the problem with the consonant blending issues, too.  Make sure you get a speech therapist who is very knowledgeable to help so that the motor planning problems can be worked into the LiPS as well, there are specific things they do that integrate speech and motor planning.

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5 hours ago, MistyMountain said:

She was not capable of the word Sphinx because she has not done ph yet and she cannot even make the sf sound and for some reason she has trouble with the t sound at the end in that section too.

T at the end of a word has a slightly different sound than T at the beginning of a word, and another slightly different sounds when blending with another consonant at the end of a word.  These different sounds are called allophones, and not understanding and feeling and hearing the differences can cause problems for students, something like LiPS will help with that.

Here is a quick explanation of allophones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allophone

Also, the sound /ts/ as in "cats" is not a blend exactly, they are co-articulated.  The /ts/ sound is one letter in Russian.  So, in /ts/, the t is even more different, it might not even be an allophone anymore, I'm not sure.  

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Just as an update I did drop Barton and she is making a lot more progress then last year with Barton. I was using Phonics Pathways again just because I had it. I was just using it temporarily until I got something else but it has gone better this time but I think she will need more practice afterwards. I also used the I See Sam sets and I think that has helped her the most. I think I will run through AbeCeDarian after she finishes PP and will eventually try something like Webster's.  

Edited by MistyMountain
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What's the status of her vision therapy? That would affect visual processing and visual memory which might explain the low retention.

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I have not started yet. I did just get the Pyramid Potential videos but I will start soon when I know I can do the 30 days in a row then I will do tracking type stuff afterwards. I do plan on getting vision therapy eventually but we cannot right now. She is on a wait list to see if she can see a speech therapist through Rite Care who will work on reading too. 

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Yeah, I didn't suspect dyslexia with my now 13 year old because she knew all her letters and principal sounds at 18 months, had no issues with phonemic awareness, and was precocious in speech and vocabulary.  I knew she had learning issues by four, but I couldn't figure out what it was, and testing we did prior to age 7 said she was fine.  I knew she wasn't fine, but I didn't jump to Barton despite having been a professional Barton tutor in the past because I didn't think that was her issue.  I taught her to read using a combination of Webster's speller, Funnix, and easy readers from the library, and she has always consistently scored above average (sometimes WELL above average) in reading.  

Finally did neuropsych exam at 7.5, after she had learned to read.  She's dyslexic, but it only shows up in spelling.  

Unfortunately, she was so burned out on working with me that to preserve our relationship, I had to send her to school and outsource tutoring.  She did Wilson in third grade take one and third grade take two, took a break in fourth grade when the teacher retired, and started Wilson again with a different tutor who finally gets her (not coincidentally at the autism school) in fifth.  We only go once a week, so it's been fairly slow, but she's almost finished with the program now in seventh.  It's worked MUCH better at ages 11-13 than it did at ages 8-9, and her spellings now consistently follow the rules, but they're still pretty consistently wrong.  For example, she might spell Bible as Bibull.  Polar bear the other day was poler bare.  She really has no visual memory, but our attempts at vision therapy didn't go well, so that's not happening.  And she's at a point now where she's functional with tech, and she's happy, so it's all worked out.  

But my rambly point is...Webster's speller taught my dyslexic kid to read really well.  It didn't teach her to spell, but by age 7 or 8 she could decode pretty much anything.  

Edited by Terabith
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Dd has actually grown by leaps and bounds because of the I See Sam sets.  It was hard to see at first because the books started out so low but the further along she gets in the sets (set 6 now) the better her reading gets and she learned enough patterns for it to transfer so it is much clearer now how she has improved. Her reading level is going up as it says it should and her fluency is growing too just as it should. The sets should get her to a mid 3rd grade to 4th grade level and then we will work on the bigger multisyllabic words. 

I just felt the sequence of Barton was a bad fit for her and it was. I shudder to think of where she would be if I tried sticking it out. Certain lessons were so hard for her and with the Barton sequence it would have taken years to read how she is in just a few months of the sets. The few things that give her trouble at times are the words that Barton taught as site words or as a unit. Barton stretched out lessons so each skill needed many days before we even got to the reading passage plus she needed the extra fluency work which made lessons take even longer. Some lessons were hard for her but then not seen much for a while and it just was not sticking. The one thing that was helpful about Barton the tapping one sound at a time and then blending I think I could have gotten elsewhere.The way words are trickled in and reviewed in the I See Sam sets is what she needed. I see the light at the end of the tunnel now and she is catching up. I wasn't even going to worry about writing or spelling this school year to focus on reading but she is doing so much better that I am going to start adding it in now. 

Edited by MistyMountain
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