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Paradox5

Is this Normal Speech Development?

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Captain is 22 1/2 mos. He has limited vocabulary which I will list below. Is this normal language acquisition?

Mum/Mom

'Addy (Daddy)

Oh, Wow!

Hi

'ei [long /i/ sound] (think it means no. He says this when he doesn't want, say the doctor to touch him.)

'bah (think it means please. He says this when we say "say 'please'".)

And that is about it for words.

I did get him to say the sound /t/  and /h/ once. If I say 'book', he will say /b/.

I can see his mouth forming the sounds, but he isn't articulating anything. He was severly tongue-tied at birth but we had that clipped at around Day 4. He does stick out his tongue.

I have had 3 kids be speech delayed and 2 be precocious. I'm not sure what Is normal anymore. His pedi. at his 18 mos. said wait and see but Early Childhood Intervention cuts off at 3. If he needs them, I would rather do it earlier than later.

Is this normal?

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They want to see MINIMUM 50 words by age 2 (24 months), and words includes animal sounds. So if you do an animal sound toy or animal book and ask what a sheep says, what a cow says,etc., those count as words. 

It's interesting to me that he has an /I/ because that is a dipthong for motor planning, starting with a jaw drop for an /a/ sound and then with retraction of the lips to an /E/. Say it super slowly with a mirror and you'll see what I mean. So if we were thinking apraxia (motor planning) as an explanation for delay, that would be a curious sound to have, just saying. It has more complex motor planning.

That 50 words is super minimum. That's the cutoff EI around here uses. I think the peds, the speechies, etc. want 200 at 2 (though honestly I forget as my ds had zilcho basically), and they want to see a progression, that he's increasing. So it's not just where he's at but the trajectory and that he's adding. Is he adding? Is he LOSING?

Yes, I would get intervention and connect with your EI. There's no harm in intervention, but there's regret in waiting if you need the intervention. Intervention at this age (and for a long, long time) will be play, all play. He'll probably love it. They'll probably come to your home, and it will be a highlight. 

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Thank you, PeterPan. I knew I could count on you to respond with helpful advice.

Captain makes a weird closed mouth barking squeak for dog. He has a LeapFrog Scout dog that makes a similar sound for a bark. He also sing-songy says 'ei, ei, o' as in Old MacDonald Had a Farm. He is no where near 50 words or separate sounds.

We did ECI with Sons 3 and 4, and it was such a blessing! I think I am going to call them Monday. I relate to your zilcho comment. Mine were the same.

Tomorrow, I am going to try to track what sounds/words he says. 

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You already know this, but you want to be talking with your ped about screening for spectrum as well. The EI people can probably help that, but when you say the language issues and that sing-songy... I don't know, I'm just taking that kind of literally. Just make sure you're doing screenings and keeping him in the loop. Some clinics have a long wait for private evals, so you don't want to be hitting say 3 and wishing for evals and then having a 6-9 month wait. You'd rather be doing that wait now. 

I look back at my ds' pictures from age 2 and it was so obvious, sigh. 

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You could check your library for this book:

Teach Me How to Say It Right

https://books.google.ca/books?id=pto8AAAACAAJ&dq=Teach+me+how+to+say+it+right&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiawYPLscPcAhUKJDQIHZ19CsgQ6AEIJTAA

It will give you some info on language development and it is a short read, about 145 pages. 

Yes, I would look into it. You could start by speaking with your pediatrician.

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This is a long time ago for me, but I took my twins at 18 months, and they wanted a minimum of 4 separate words.  

My son didn’t have 4 separate words.  My daughter did but she still qualified, I don’t remember how she qualified.  

Both of them ended up having fluid in their ears and getting tubes, which the EI person was extremely, extremely helpful in figuring out.  

My son did also get missed for autism and it’s too bad.  I would hope that EI would do a better job with that now in the town where I lived, because I think a lot more has come out about early signs of autism in just the past 5 years.  But I agree it’s worth looking for early signs of autism, and asking for a referral if there is any concern at all.

On the other hand, my daughter completely caught up within a month of getting tubes in her ears ?  

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My middle dd's speech development sounds similar. She went through EI starting at 24 months. At about two she had ah-ah (Mama), 'Ab-eee (Daddy), ay-eee (older sister & baby), ow, oh (no), and sign language. 

He sounds closer to 12 month speech development than 24 month honestly. I would call EI if it were my child. 

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I mentioned starting with your pediatrician because, depending on where you live, you may need a referral. I'm not in the US. Here, we needed a referral for the autism evaluations and diagnoses my boys received. I just checked and EI here also requires a referral. I don't know what the situation is in the US, but if you don't need a referral, you could certainly just contact EI directly.

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Even my kid who needs speech was precocious about timing and how many words he had, but I'm going to chime in for anyone lurking to say that having language doesn't mean having good language or being problem-free--my second one has motor planning issues. He's just more non-traditional about it (jaw stability in his case seems to be causing the problem, and the jaw instability is probably due to his connective tissue disorder). He's apraxic, but not the more typical little-to-no spoken language sort of apraxia.

 

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I do not have autism concerns at all. He doesn't have any markers for it-- just speech.

I will call the Pedi first tomorrow. Good idea, y'all. 

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On the flip side, people shouldn't freak out and assume a serious problem at less than 50 words. Almost all of my kids were slow talkers, but the words the did say were clear and normal. 

I remember when our dd started talking in full paragraphs at 16 months bc it was so foreign to how our older kids had developed speech. 

Their receptive language was normal, though. I could ask them to go get something and they would know exactly what I was saying.

What the OP is describing, however, does not sound like just delayed speech. But it is hard for me to understand the pronunciation issues. 

Our 4 yr old grandson's speech was equally delayed. He has no language deficiencies now. He didn't talk hardly at all until he was almost 2. My dil was panicky, but he was very much like his dad.

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Coming back to update. Captain had his ECI eval Tuesday. In every area EXCEPT expressive speech, he was at or far above normal for his age. His speech is around 12 months old. 

They suggested teaching him sign langauge but I do not feel right about doing that. Go with yer gut, right?

He is going to have a SLP come 3 times a month, and we will have assignments from her. 

Not sure what else to do except keep trying to get him to repeat sounds and use words rather than body language. We read constantly!

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I don't think skipping ASL out of concern that it will hold back speech development is an evidence-based practice. Google for the research and see, but there are doubtless studies on it. Our SLP expert in apraxia WANTED us to use ASL and she used it in sessions interchangeable with speech when ds started at that age. ASL is language and is working that language part of the brain, meaning it's just good. You can use ASL *and* speech. I got the entire Signing Time dvd set for my ds at that age. It has tons of language, so you can watch it together, do the signs together, say the words. What was telling with my ds was that he actually couldn't get his thoughts out with ASL any better than with spoken language. So it's really valuable to you to go ahead and start doing ASL with him. Do BOTH. That way you can see more what is going on.

9 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

Not sure what else to do except

They inventoried his speech, right? And he has some kind of something he gets out?  With my ds, we were working up from nothing at that age. The biggest principle is require language for everything. Anything he wants requires language. Every bite of food he eats, every time he wants up to change his diaper, every next piece in the game, EVERYTHING requires language from now on. Want another bite? Say /a/ (or whatever he has). You're reading books to him, so want the next page, say /a/ (or whatever he has). And so on. It doesn't have to be perfect language or the final thing you want him to say when he's 15, lol. Just pick something he *can* say and have him use it more. We used vowels, syllables, whatever we had built up that he had. 

No, I wouldn't try to push with repeating sounds. Even SLPs don't necessarily do that. It's unnecessarily stressful. Just take what he has and USE it more. Language has to have power for him so he wants to use it.

The SLP hopefully will have really good suggestions too! If you want private therapy, you can look into Hanen and Play Project. Both will be really conducive to a natural style of interaction and how you like to work at home. 

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18 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

 They suggested teaching him sign langauge but I do not feel right about doing that. Go with yer gut, right?

For a child with normal hearing and no receptive language delay teaching sign will not hinder speech development. Your child has received sufficient auditory access for normal brain development in the auditory processing areas.

Now for a child with a hearing impairment who is not getting full auditory access, then there is a very real risk that using a visual language will hinder the child's ability to learn a spoken language. Dr. Anu Sharma, who is a neuroscientist at the University of Colorado-Boulder, has done a lot of research using neuroimaging to show that in deaf children the visual parts of the brain start to take over the auditory areas and that auditory-based intervention reverses that effect.

But that's not going to happen if your child has normal hearing and you're just using sign to help bridge the gap between what he understands is being said to him and what he can produce.

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We started my daughter in EI at 15 months for speech.  We had done a handful of signs (milk, more, please/ thank you, I think) before that, but when she qualified, the speech therapist said, "ASL will help."  So we started watching Signing Time and using the signs we learned in daily conversation.  It was ROCKET FUEL for her.  She had normal hearing, didn't need tubes or anything, but she went from an expressive language level of 6 months (and I think receptive was also delayed, although less so) to a 36 month level by her second birthday.  She had over 300 signs by then.  Her trajectory went from nothing to signing to once the signing was established to using the spoken word.  Because the ASL had taught her language skills, when the oral motor improved enough, it just automatically transferred, because she already had the language skills.  She had some oral motor issues, though not at the level of apraxia, but she really needed the bridge of ASL.  Everyone told me I was nuts calling EI when she was only 15 months old, but my gut said something was wrong, and I'm so glad we intervened then, because it was so much easier to catch her up.  She's now almost 15 and has no issues at all.  (Ironically, her younger sister who was extremely precocious verbally DOES have issues, but that's another story.)  

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53 minutes ago, Paradox5 said:

Ok- y’all have convinced me. I’m going to check my library for those dvds today.

Coming in late with another Signing Times recommendation story. I was told at my DD's interview to set up therapy through our school district that she was "THE best behaved, speech delayed child" the therapist had ever seen. The lady told me she didn't have hardly any frustration based behavior problems like the other kids because she was able to be understood through sign. 

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And then I caught the tummy bug two other sons so kindly brought home...

I think I’m going to see if amazon prime has them for streaming.

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On 9/20/2018 at 10:19 PM, Paradox5 said:

I think I’m going to see if amazon prime has them for streaming.

I don't know if you had success finding them, but we bought all 4 of the Baby Signing Time DVDs streaming on Amazon and they were amazing. I felt they were a lot more functional for DS (who was probably 20 months at the time), because they moved a lot slower than the regular Signing Time. The signs were also a lot more functional for a young child, "more" "potty" "drink" whereas the other DVDs we have were less common signs. We were focused on teaching him how to get his wants and needs met.

Another thing we did was whenever we encountered a situation where we didn't have the sign he needed for a particular event, I would do a quick youtube search and demonstrate it. That way we were always adding to his vocabulary with things he may encounter again. 

DS took really well to sign and it really helped his speech take off. I was also worried that once he saw how well signing worked he wouldn't want to put the work into speaking, but it's been the opposite. ASL has given him the bridge he needed to get his wants and needs met without frustration and now he uses a lot more words, but will still rely on a sign if we can't seem to understand what he is saying.  It's also helped with his oral motor planning. The sign is a silent prompt to himself to make his mouth move in a certain way. He is getting better at single words, but still can't string them together without a 1 to 1 prompt of some kind. He's about 30 months now with maybe 20 words that are understandable, but over 100 signs and he often tries other words that I can decode based on context.

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Another thing I liked about the "Baby Signing Time" dvds is that all the children featured in them are under three, so you see how REAL toddlers make the signs.  My daughter clearly would try to make the "cracker" sign, but she simply wasn't capable of it or the official water sign, but I saw other kids on the Baby Signing Time dvds making the exact approximations that she did.  I found that very helpful.  I agree that for the little ones, Baby Signing Time is better, but when Anna was little, they were just coming out, so we started with the regular ones since those were what was available and bought the baby ones when she was around 2, when they came out.  They're ALL awesome.  Rachel is really an amazing woman!  

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Anyone have a link to the Signing Time streaming? I tried looking on Amazon but the ones I am seeing have horrible reviews.

Captain has come a LONG way since his first eval. He has tons of words, but he uses very few sentences, as in "I help."  type sentences. If you say 2 words like Thank you, he will say the last word only. Give him 2 words for a choice, he will say the second even if what he really wanted was the first item. We keep working on it. He "reads" to himself now which is cute and recognizes a few letters. Plus, he counts to 3. Everything he does say is usually very clear so no articulation issues. Yea!

We moved and have a new SLP who is good, but I miss our other one. This lady is more business-like and says "No" a lot when he says something wrong. It kinda bugs me. She gave me a bit of a lecture about how I need to put him (and my other kids) in [pre]school so he/they can learn "social academics", how to stand in line, deal with a timed structure, and other kids, among other ridiculous things. I think it was her comment that I wasn't ready to leave him/them with other people-- like I was projecting my own anexity onto my kids (which I don't have) that really irritated me. I remained polite, but firm in our decisions. This was Monday, but it is still bothering me.

He has about 6, possibly 8, more visits before he turns 3. We opted out of public school transition services. Frankly, his other SLP said he would not qualify for ps services because he is making such huge strides.

All in all, I am SO glad I got the ball rolling on ECI and so glad it exists.

Edited by Paradox5
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I wouldn't trust SLPs or psychs or anyone else on questions of whether someone qualifies for an IEP or would receive services. I've gotten many wrong answers. He sounds like he has significant language issues and should receive further evaluations. 

Your SLP doesn't sound like she has training in Hanen or other techniques for working with kids with language delays. Oppositional behaviors are pretty common, so people usually learn other ways to work around saying no. It also means she's not very fast on her feet to be able to say those other things. SLPs are a dime a dozen. You might look for someone Hanen trained. Also Play Project is excellent. Either one would be great for him right now.

I'm glad your early intervention experience has been good! Yes, our SLP at the time suggested trying ds in preschool, but for that opposite reason, haha. She wanted it to SLOW DOWN his language! Have a good laugh over that.

Now what she can be meaning (besides bias, blah blah) is that she's seeing social delay issues. He already has a language delay, and if she's seeing indication of a social delay on top of it, that's something to be cognizant of. But really, social delays are not the kind of thing (in my small world) that just poof. They're more like you finally realizing it and keep intervening. So even then it's not like a right or wrong path on schooling, just a different path. Either way he's going to be who he is and continue to grow relative to himself. But recognizing that's happening is a bigger issue.

So yes, language (not just articulation but language development) and social skills are huge huge huge at this age. There's a preschool level of the SPELT. That would give you a sense how far behind his language is right now. Structured Photographic Expressive Language Test - Preschoolhttps://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=TM587  Also you could have someone run a VMPAC or something on him. There are developmental tools they use when assessing development and they'll have screener questions for language. 

Language has been the big BITE US IN THE BUTT here, so I'm saying focus on it.

Edited by PeterPan
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On 7/29/2018 at 11:01 AM, kbutton said:

Even my kid who needs speech was precocious about timing and how many words he had, but I'm going to chime in for anyone lurking to say that having language doesn't mean having good language or being problem-free--my second one has motor planning issues. He's just more non-traditional about it (jaw stability in his case seems to be causing the problem, and the jaw instability is probably due to his connective tissue disorder). He's apraxic, but not the more typical little-to-no spoken language sort of apraxia.

This sounds like my dd, and you’re only the second other person I’ve known to have a kid with apraxia but lots of language. How has he progressed in the last year?

Paradox: here’s a link to the first Siging Times on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Signing-Time-Season-Episode-First/dp/B0050AH1HK/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=signing+time&qid=1561100506&s=gateway&sprefix=signing+&sr=8-3

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7 hours ago, kand said:

a kid with apraxia but lots of language.

Kbutton was saying he could talk (was verbal, what have you) but DID need language intervention. Language includes narrative language, self-advocacy, the language of social and problem solving, phonological processing, syntax/vocabulary/expressive language, receptive language, etc. See what Kbutton says, but I think she has worked on a fair number of those. She was just saying in a world where people think apraxia = no speech (which it can!), it's shocking to meet a kid who is fully talking, maybe 6 -10 years old, and the explanation for the subtle, bizarre problems that aren't responding to treatment is apraxia. 

You can look at my ds, tons of therapy, tons of language coming out, and he has needed RADICAL language intervention. He could pass the (stupid, idiotic, multiple choice) CELF, look reasonably decent on the CASL, but utterly fail at real life. Turns out he was scripting. So he failed the SPELT (a photographic expressive language test with no models given if the SLP does it right and stays on-script) and the TNL=test of narrative language. 

You don't know what language issues are going on in a particular dc until you actually do the testing. Since language underlies basically EVERYTHING we do in homeschooling, it's some of the most important testing. It's also why it's so dissatisfactory that they're using screeners, tests with multiple choice and models (as if life wer multiple choice), etc.

10 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

Anyone have a link to the Signing Time streaming?

I forgot you asked about this! I have all the Signing Time dvds from my ds and could sell them to you. I don't think we're using them anymore. 

Now I'm suddenly curious to see what ds would think of ASL... It has been a long time since we watched the videos. At the time he would watch but didn't actually USE the signs, which was the funniest thing. Years later, with more testing, we look back and realize he had that language delay and wasn't using the signs because of that. But at the time, even under the care of an SLP, we weren't catching it.

Edited by PeterPan
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9 hours ago, kand said:

This sounds like my dd, and you’re only the second other person I’ve known to have a kid with apraxia but lots of language. How has he progressed in the last year?

We've been working on articulation. His other language therapy is related to auditory processing difficulties--getting him to a point he can take notes with a smartpen by "listening selectively" and reviewing notes later.

His articulation is okay. He turns it on and off due to fatigue from a connective tissue disorder. He had a bunch of teeth removed because they were all jammed up (small jaws), and they are not all the way in. It's messing his speech up a little, but not tons. 

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Kbutton was saying he could talk (was verbal, what have you) but DID need language intervention. Language includes narrative language, self-advocacy, the language of social and problem solving, phonological processing, syntax/vocabulary/expressive language, receptive language, etc. See what Kbutton says, but I think she has worked on a fair number of those. She was just saying in a world where people think apraxia = no speech (which it can!), it's shocking to meet a kid who is fully talking, maybe 6 -10 years old, and the explanation for the subtle, bizarre problems that aren't responding to treatment is apraxia. 

His narrative language is fine. His phonological processing is mediocre (dyslexia and auditory processing issues), his vocabulary and morphology is a relative weakness. But, that can all be chalked up to his dyslexia, honestly. 

His apraxia is probably more of a global deficit in motor planning plus jaw stability issues in the context of connective tissue disorder (if it has motor in the name, he probably has a problem with it!). Apraxia is a term that really needs to be multiple terms! 

I think my main point though is that he did talk--sentences, the whole deal. He just wasn't particularly intelligible and had motor planning issues. 

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17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

his vocabulary and morphology is a relative weakness. But, that can all be chalked up to his dyslexia, honestly. 

So to be clear for Kand, your ds did EET (the Expanding Expressions Tool), right? When we say vocabulary as homeschoolers, we usually mean a list of words, but when SLPs say vocabulary they mean the relationships, the categories, language stuff. My ds had a high vocabulary if you just gave him a straight vocabulary test, but he needed vocabulary work. (antonyms, categories, parts of things, being able to describe something, etc.) Everything was memorized by disorganized. And what EET does is show the strong relationship between those skills and the writing we're trying to teach. Language is the foundation of everything we're trying to do.

So you can have a lot of speech coming out (be verbal) and need language work. Or motor planning. Or more. And the sucky part is it's stuff that comes so naturally to other kids that we assume it will just come with time, sigh. We even have people like the "right-brained" movement saying if we just wait it will poof magically happen. Of course that's the epitomy of a developmental delay, but yeah whatever. And if it doesn't poof magically happen, like my ds, then you're left going how in the world do I build this?

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18 minutes ago, kbutton said:

morphology is a relative weakness.

Interestingly, morphology started clicking for my ds as we worked on vocabulary. I think he needed to attach meaning to everything on the *word* level and then the *parts of words* started being useful.

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2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So to be clear for Kand, your ds did EET (the Expanding Expressions Tool), right? When we say vocabulary as homeschoolers, we usually mean a list of words, but when SLPs say vocabulary they mean the relationships, the categories, language stuff. My ds had a high vocabulary if you just gave him a straight vocabulary test, but he needed vocabulary work. (antonyms, categories, parts of things, being able to describe something, etc.) Everything was memorized by disorganized. And what EET does is show the strong relationship between those skills and the writing we're trying to teach. Language is the foundation of everything we're trying to do.

So you can have a lot of speech coming out (be verbal) and need language work. Or motor planning. Or more. And the sucky part is it's stuff that comes so naturally to other kids that we assume it will just come with time, sigh. We even have people like the "right-brained" movement saying if we just wait it will poof magically happen. Of course that's the epitomy of a developmental delay, but yeah whatever. And if it doesn't poof magically happen, like my ds, then you're left going how in the world do I build this?

So, it's my kid without ASD that I'm talking about. He did run through the EET, but he didn't have trouble with it. He also can use language in the other ways you mention. He has more trouble with changing words forms, such making a noun out of an adjective. But it's mild, not bad. He also has more trouble picking up the meaning of new words in context than I would expect (unlike his brother with ASD who does so very, very naturally but has completely different language issues). He doesn't just memorize language--he uses it well. He just has a few quirks that are typical of someone with dyslexia. His vocabulary on testing is exceptionally high (while being the lowest of his verbal scores on the WISC), but he perceives it as a weaker area due to needing more direct instruction in the meanings of words. 

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6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Interestingly, morphology started clicking for my ds as we worked on vocabulary. I think he needed to attach meaning to everything on the *word* level and then the *parts of words* started being useful.

His is getting better with more reading and more maturity, but spelling work has helped a LOT. Sequential Spelling makes him pay attention to the parts of words.

Edited by kbutton
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Paradox, has the SLP given you any scores for how his pragmatic language is doing?

When DS15 was graduating from EI into the public school system as he was turning three, his speech was good enough that he did not qualify for an IEP based on speech (although it was still definitely delayed -- he began to catch up, around then), but he did qualify on the basic of social-emotional, or pragmatics. I have his report from that initial school evaluation, and his pragmatics were a year delayed.

So my points are that pragmatics can be tested at that age. And that, since you don't know (I'm assuming that you don't know) whether the SLP is just a person who thinks all three year olds should be in preschool, or if she is seeing pragmatic delays that prompted that suggestion, it's worth having a conversation about pragmatics with her.

I turned down the IEP at that age, by the way, because I figured social-emotional was a category to work on at home. And it is! But that low score was a red flag that I didn't understand at the time. I wish I could go back and give my old self a different level of understanding; since I can't do that, I figure sharing what I've learned with others is a way to be helpful.

Your son may have no problem with pragmatics at all; it's just something to ask about, since you are planning to graduate out of EI and not connect with the schools. While you still have services with the SLP, I would gain that information, if you don't already have it.

My other piece of advice is to ask the SLP for an exit report and keep it. I have found our report useful several times over the years, as documentation of DS's early language troubles. In fact, I just dug it out and sent it someone this month, thirteen years later.

Edited by Storygirl
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They'll weave pragmatics in at a young age, but the testing is really spotting and unreliable till about 10. My ds had the SLDT around 6 or 7, I forget, and he passed with a raw score of *1*. The SLP literally apologized, because she knew he had issues but couldn't show them with her test. The new CAPS uses videos and might be more reliable, but again I'm not sure when that starts. 

But yes the SLP will see the issues and weave in goals. Our SLPs doing PROMPT had been weaving them in as part of a comprehensive approach. 

Narrative language is the one that is super easy to test and quantify at a younger age and get kids qualified. The schools get around it by not even bothering to run the testing, even though it affects all of academics, lol. Our district is doing it again. They OWN THE TEST and they've got a kid they're turning away because he's labeled ASD1. Guaranteed they didn't run the narrative language testing on him. 

17 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

 I think it was her comment that I wasn't ready to leave him/them with other people

Fwiw, I didn't have words for it at the time and what it turned out was that my "anxiety" over ds leaving him places was because I knew he required extra support to:

-stay with the group

-follow the group plan

-take a break 

-use language solve problems

-not elope

So literally I was covering for SAFETY issues. My ds was 5 turning 6 when I started him in activities at the Y, and I was the ONLY ONE walking my kid in all the way, putting him on the bench, and staying right beside him until the teacher laid eyes on him and greeted him and took over. He required that much support. 

Now something like Play Project can do an intake and talk about those early social skills Story is alluding to. They're not on a standardized test, but they're the skills they teach in something like We Thinkers 1/2 from the Social Thinking people and they're things that keep you SAFE. So absolutely your mother gut would be on and protective if he's got some issues there. And you might just not have the words for it yet.

So what that tells you, when you have a really rigid, no-no-no kind of SLP is she doesn't know anything about social thinking or the development of these skills in order to help you identify what the problem is and WHY you're being that cautionary. If you got with an SLP who is trained in Social Thinking (which, my lands, isn't most of the planet now???), they could help you sort it out.

Play Project and We Thinkers would both be excellent and age-appropriate. Hanen has a similar program. Whatever you can find in that vein. They're going to weave together social thinking, language, and they're going to start catching some of these issues that maybe you're seeing and don't have words for. It's the BEST age to be getting into these programs, because they're PLAY-BASED. 

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Found this really great doc explaining EET, SGM/MW, etc. and thought it might be useful to op.

5815412d-8fb2-4051-8f03-61db5ae73572

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Some new research to help you advocate for continued AGGRESSIVE SPEECH THERAPY. I warn you, it's not pretty https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17549507.2019.1638968?fbclid=IwAR1eHQQKj_E90swaK6IMPpQAYjFhLSZX9-KFX9Qgw0jbaoqS2r7_tHrYpI0 It's behind a paywall, so you're not seeing so much. The jist though is what's disconcerting. It's so common for people to say a dc was late but caught up, but that's not where the data is. You want to be aggressive about pushing for intervention.

Language is what continues to bite us in the butt with ds. All these threads you're probably overwhelmed by with narrative language, syntax, vocabulary, etc. you want to be looking at, because that's what you're trying to head off.

Edited by PeterPan

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9 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

New word today: chicken! 

Now you want that word to have POWER.          Verbal Behavior Analysis: Inducing and Expanding New Verbal Capabilities in Children with Language Delays Inducing and Expanding New Verbal Capabilities in Children with Language Delays        This is the best book I read for that stage of language. It's VBA, and for some reason SLPs are NOT trained in VBA. Go chew on that one. You've got the SLPs saying behaviorists shouldn't treat language and the behaviorists saying they have to because they have the hours that actually get the language applied. So if you trust any one camp, you're probably missing out on the other side. 

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